MAINTENANCE OF THE TESTIMONY BY MEANS OF MATERNAL INSTINCTS

^[p. 176] MAINTENANCE OF THE TESTIMONY BY MEANS OF MATERNAL INSTINCTS

Judges 4: 4 - 9; Judges 13: 15 - 23

JT What is in mind is that we might see how, when the paternal feature of a position is very weak, the maternal comes into prominence and is used to maintain the position designed of God in testimony.

The paternal side includes those who, according to divine ordering, should take the lead, representative of God. The maternal refers to the saints as a whole but as exercised and possessing feelings and affections proper to the mother; the idea of the mother from this point of view is set out in Galatians; Jerusalem above is our mother, she is the free woman, and, as free, is uncontrolled or uninfluenced by natural feelings. We have natural feelings which tend to bondage. This book sets out these two thoughts particularly.

It begins with the full representation of the fatherly thought in Caleb, but this lapses, as is evident, and consequently we have the successive sorrowful invasions of evil of one form and another. Evil finds its place amongst us on account of weakness on the paternal side and so Deborah is referred to as the first to manifest these instincts which are in mind in the thought of a mother, a mother in Israel. The idea of women in the things of God is seen perhaps in its most exalted way morally in this book and on the other side, alas, in the most degraded way. The book affords examples of the most degraded feminine features, so that it corresponds with the history of christendom. We have the feminine side in the assembly viewed in a motherly way, as in Galatians, Jerusalem above, moral elevation and liberty by the Spirit. On the other hand we have, in Jezebel and in Babylon, the most degraded thoughts spiritually.

^[p. 177] So that we may be helped in looking into the history of two women who are spoken of as over against the men associated with them. Both men are recognised as having leadership, both Barak and Manoah, but they are inferior morally to the women. The womanly side is used of God to save the position.

AMH Would you say a little more as to how the womanly side works? Is it through the sovereign activities of the Spirit?

JT It is manifested first in moral qualities. Deborah represents victory, she sat under her own palm tree. It was her own and those who sought judgment came to her, not that she was an official but one who had moral qualities. Wherever these are, whether in man or woman, they are observable by the spiritual, so that I think the Spirit of God works in the saints as a whole in a subjective way so that we gain victory over ourselves and take that ground, and it becomes observable. Even if the fatherly side is weak or false the ground is held.

AMH Is that indicated in the beginning when Adam fails to lead, and the blessing is connected with the seed of the woman, but she has to learn to name the right child, and recovery is effected on that line, so that finally Adam names his last child Seth, and now all is reckoned from Adam anew?

JT That is right. Eve mistook the child, when Cain was born, she said, “I have acquired a man with Jehovah”, Genesis 4: 1. She was the first to use the title Jehovah in Scripture and in this very relation, no doubt, too, having in mind that He had spoken of a seed as He did. The remnant will say, “unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given”, Isaiah 9: 6. She evidently had thought that the seed was there; it was still a long way off, but it would come that way by the help of God.

EBMcC Deborah was living in liberty. She was free in that way to ^[p. 178] command.

JT She dwelt under her own palm tree, the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim, and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment — up to her.

EBMcC They were being oppressed mightily, but she seemed to be above the oppression and she is living in a fruitful place.

AMH Does going up to her mean that the saints get to know if one has an elevated outlook and is able to throw the light of God upon matters?

JT The door is open to all, especially to sisters.

Scripture abounds with illustrations as to how the mind of God may be found amongst them. Therefore the rank and file of the brethren ought not to rely wholly on their leaders. We are to follow and know and respect our leaders but each is to have his own relations with the Lord, to stand on his own feet and move on in that way. They came up to her as recognising that there was something there. She judged Israel.

Rem There is something spiritual. The needs amongst the saints have to be met spiritually and the service of God has to be carried on as well.

JT Quite so: especially to get judgment. One of the most difficult things is to get judgment that is according to God, because today the conflict generally throughout the history of the brethren is in maintaining right principles as over against natural feelings. I believe that that is what this book is helpful in, the idea of judgment.

JJJ Would it be an element, rather than an individual, an element of the spirit of judgment in the locality?

JT In each local meeting it is developed under this head, but it includes the saints. It refers to the saints viewed in this feminine way, as acquiring moral superiority over the flesh. The evidence of power is seen in the palm tree, so that each local company is ^[p. 179] able to move and meet its exigencies under the Lord. What is seen in Deborah would preclude mere natural feelings. Personal feelings and what I have known of the persons beforehand so becloud every issue that comes out; it is not that one’s knowledge of brethren is not of importance because we should humbly in love have a judgment about each other before the Lord. But when we come to judge and administer we have to deal with facts, not feelings. I do not believe that Deborah would listen to a sister who came to her and told her something disparaging about a neighbour. She would send her back for facts and to bring another sister with her.

JW Is it important that they had to come to her for judgment instead of Deborah going to them?

JT It shows the place she had acquired on moral grounds. The fact that they went up to her shows that she had become known as a person to be relied upon, and an element to be relied upon.

Ques You spoke of the paternal side being weak. Is the paternal side able to judge?

JT It should be. Judgment was given over to the head, the man. So that Barak is weak here although he is amenable to help and that is a great matter in a meeting. If there is anyone ready to be helped, most of the saints see the thing and encourage him to go forward in the right way. It may come out in the prayer, reading, care or ministry meeting to indicate what is to be done.

Rem What is the force of stating that she was a prophetess?

JT It is to bring out the feminine side. The note indicates that it is a ‘woman prophetess’. That would be redundancy if it did not mean that great stress is being laid on the feminine side. The Lord is called the ‘male son’ in Revelation 12, on the same line. That is to stress the male side.

Ques Does it suggest that being a woman prophetess ^[p. 180] and the wife of Lapidoth and dwelling under the palm tree of Deborah, she moved in the orbit allotted to her?

JT That is the meaning. It is not simply a historical fact that she is the wife of a certain person but the stress spiritually is that she was a wife, not simply that he was her husband.

Rem She keeps to her orbit in not leading. She does not go as a leader.

JT A very retiring person you mean, a woman that does not push herself at all. Nor does she mean that the victory will be attributed to her; it is to Jael.

Ques Would this maternal element in a locality be more an element amongst the saints, including both brothers and sisters who are prepared to suffer for the saints?

JT The assembly includes both, and the feminine side is just the relation in which the assembly as a whole stands to the Lord. The Lord represents the male or governing, leading element, represented, of course, in certain ones.

Rem When it was a question of military action Deborah would still retire and put Barak forward.

She would not step out of her place in public.

JT She would go with him to encourage him according to his request, and the way she alludes to Jael is significant as pointing to the absence of rivalry or ambition to shine herself. She makes much of her sister.

EBMcC As she is able to take up judgment in the assembly she can receive a word to liberate her people; that shows the position she held before God.

JT That is right. Therefore her word fits in with our own times peculiarly. “He that has my commandments and keeps them”, John 14: 21. Such a one will insist on the commandments, the law of the house, or the law governing any matter that we have ^[p. 181] to do with. Our salvation lies in finding that out and abiding by it. ‘It is not my proposal, it is the Lord’s’, she says in effect.

Ques Does the reference to Barak in Hebrews 11 relate to this instance? Deborah is not mentioned there.

JT Deborah was in keeping with that anticipatively. She had no thought of being spoken of as possessing faith. Barak had faith but he was weak and she pushed him forward so that the divine principle was maintained.

Ques Is he the product of Deborah’s exercise?

JT That is saying a little too much. He must have had faith personally. The Spirit of God would not have presented him in Hebrews 11 if the element of faith were not there. The word was from God “Hath not Jehovah the God of Israel commanded? Go and draw towards mount Tabor”. There was something there or God would not have called him into this great service. He was to take ten thousand men from Naphtali and Zebulun, and Jehovah would give the enemy into his hand. He needed this support and so the brethren generally ought to support a brother amongst them if he is disposed to go on. They ought to support him to the utmost and not go beyond him.

Rem She sent and called Barak. Would the spiritual instincts of the saints know whom the Lord was about to use and able to use?

JT You can see that. The divine current was there, and she was in it.

Rem Her greatness was inside; it was not greatness on the battlefield.

JT I think she adorns the position. The idea of adornment is in relation to the feminine side very much.

Rem It sets forth a meek and a quiet spirit.

JT Quite so. Our sisters are said to be daughters ^[p. 182] of holy women whose adorning was not in the plaiting of hair, but in the hidden man of the heart. Deborah had the hidden man of the heart. Barak was the only one to represent that, as it were. It is a question of Christ and the assembly.

AMH She must have seen some kind of quality of leadership in Barak, and if we get victory over ourselves as dwelling under the palm tree we shall be able to bring leadership more into evidence.

JT And support it where it is at all in evidence and make the most of it.

EBMcC It is important that one should have a judgment. She had a judgment about Barak, Naphtali and Zebulun. She knew where to put her hand for spiritual men.

JT In the next chapter the song of Deborah and Barak brings out the judgment that they had, but particularly she, as to all. The whole field is reviewed, and where praise is due it is given and where it is not deserved, it does not come forth.

JJJ Would Deborah stand for a spiritual element in the meeting?

JT I think so. It is what is in the assembly as such; not merely in the leaders, but in the company, whether in brothers or sisters. So that it ought to work out in the meetings for deliberation as well as in meetings for executive purposes, so that we know what to do.

AMH Is it not a fact that spiritual qualities in the saints need direction to give them their best effect? You have a great deal brought out in the third day in Genesis, but the multiplying of living things is consequent on the sun and moon being set in the heavens.

JT That began on the fifth day. The ordering of things is on the fourth, and the living creatures are on the fifth day. Thus life comes into being, and order, as we have Christ owned in heaven, in authority.

^[p. 183] EBMcC Barak was wise to have Deborah go with him. She was the spiritual element. It would be scarcely right for him to have gone without it.

JT Barak says, “If thou goest with me, then I will go: but if thou goest not with me, I will not go”. So that the position would be absolutely lost unless she went. He is acknowledging his weakness and she says, “I will by all means go with thee, only that it will not be to thine honour upon the way which thou goest”. It is the “way which thou goest”, he is the leader in it; it is not ‘the way in which we go’, but “the way which thou goest”. She is pushing him into the lead in spite of himself.

JM Had Deborah a truer judgment of his qualities than he had of his own?

JT Very likely. It would be great encouragement. It is the way thou goest, as if he knew the way. John says the young men are strong and the word of God abides in them — it abides; that is, there ought to be courage in the strength, and guidance. The word of God abiding in you would indicate things to you. There is the readiness for every emergency in that way, in the young as well as in the old. The meetings that we have are undoubtedly blessed of God, and extra meetings in which there is opportunity for a prophetic word greatly aid in these matters, in view of exigencies arising that may baffle us; we may see no way out and yet there is a way out. Deborah indicates here that Barak knew it. She is giving him credit for that: “the way which thou goest”. She was with him in it. So that the thing is to get the clue as to the way we have in this book. Take the way to the city of Luz; they were to take the city and a man guides them in (Judges 1: 25).

You get the clue. There is a way. If we are simple enough there is always a way out or a way in.

AMH Do you think that in meetings for ministry light would be thrown upon difficulties that exist ^[p. 184] amongst the saints apart from their being taken up in care meetings?

JT If we are intelligent as to the meeting the Spirit of God, as choosing the prophetic word, may throw light on the whole position and you feel the Lord has just given it for the occasion.

AMH That would be “Hath not the Lord commanded?”

JJJ In referring to the prophetic word in ministry are you alluding to 1 Corinthians 14?

JT Yes. That is the main point in the chapter.

It may be in a little way a brother says something that gives a clue.

Ques Would this suggest that there is more than one way to do a thing? Barak goes his way. A thing may be done sometimes on a lower level, sometimes on a higher level; it would be done but would not produce the same result.

JT I am sure that is true. The Lord is very gracious and helps us.

Rem This would be acceptable to Jehovah but Barak could have gone on a higher level with greater faith.

JT Yes, if he had gone himself. But the way he goes is the way Deborah is honouring. She does not undertake at all to advise as to the way.

Rem This was his measure. Sometimes we have to do things according to our measure and feel it.

JT I think it is very beautiful to see the skill and seemliness with which she moves. She says, It is your way, as if to say, You will be at a disadvantage.

EBMcC It is well to see that he does not go beyond his measure. He had his measure and he went according to his measure with Deborah.

JT The general idea of leading is to go on yourself, and if anything is to be done, not to wait too long until the saints are all ready to move in it. In ^[p. 185] most cases if you are with the Lord and exercised and you move, the others will move with you.

JM Was she recognising that he was in command?

JT I think so. He is moving under divine commandment. She says, “Hath not Jehovah the God of Israel commanded?” So that the position is a good position. But we are not to overlook the weakness in Barak because the Spirit of God is speaking to him, and to you and me, and every brother here, and saying, ‘Do not do that. See to it that you have courage’. Courage is the great feature of our position. Be strong and very courageous.

JM You could not have true courage without a legal position as you said the other day. Is that right?

JT That is right. You need the assurance that it is the divine way. Even so, he was failing in courage although evidently he discerned that it was the Lord’s word to him.

AMH How necessary it is to take action directly He does call! You get Naphtali and Zebulun heartily responding; it just needed faith to call them.

JJJ Does light always govern the position, the moral side?

JT It always resolves itself that way. Light governs the position; that means the principles governing it.

AMH That is what you call the male side.

JT Brothers ought to be able to lay out what should be done.

JW “Is not Jehovah gone out before thee?” Deborah is in the mind of God.

JT She has put it to him that way. It is very beautiful to see how David prayed in his conflicts and God graciously says, in effect, ‘It is not to be just as it was the other day but this time you are to wait for the sound of marching in the mulberry trees; that is the assurance that God has gone before you’. The burden of our prayers in all these matters is that God should go before us.

JM Do you think that Barak had recovered from his weakness when he sang the song of Deborah? “Then sang Deborah and Barak”.

JT They had a good meeting, did they not? It is a song of triumph, full of instruction too. The victory is complete; it is a well-known history, but Deborah’s prophetic word is justified now. Sisera was sold into the hand of a woman, as she said, “Jael went out to meet him, ... and behold, Sisera lay dead, and the pin was in his temples”. She had won the victory, and “God subdued on that day Jabin king of Canaan before the children of Israel”.

Before we proceed to chapter 13, there are other women to be noticed, the mother of Gideon who could not be classified with Deborah, and the wife of Manoah. The men slain at Tabor are said by their slayers to have been like Gideon, every one of them resembled the sons of a king and Gideon says, “They were my brethren, the sons of my mother”, Judges 8: 19. They suffered. Persons who suffer are representative of the mind of God at that particular time.

These men were like Gideon, but it brings out that the ideal of Gideon’s mother must have been beyond her husband, for they resembled the sons of a king.

If we have to suffer, I think it is well to have that in mind, the dignity in which we suffer.

JM You mean there is a touch of royalty in suffering?

JT I thought that. It made the murderers more guilty. Those who attacked the assembly at the beginning saw that sort of thing. Saul went into houses and dragged men and women to the tribunals.

There was resemblance to Christ in them which made the thing more serious. Correspondingly, it is incumbent on us to carry that resemblance in conflict.

AMH Would you say in a way that what they ^[p. 187] suffered in dignity is bearing fruit now in Gideon’s day? Leadership is the result.

JT It brings out the excellence of this mother. What a family she had! What reserves there were in Gideon’s day! There were more than come out in the details of the conflict; there were others like him.

Rem You mean the suffering is due to the fact that they bore a resemblance to Gideon?

JT That is the way it is put. The Lord would remind us at all times that He is never limited to one; He has got reserves. The obvious lesson for us is to be like that. It is a great voice at the present time to young men. The Lord is calling them early. It is as if He intended the testimony to proceed a little longer, but if not, if He comes at any time, He would wish it to be manifested that He has enough to go on with. He may come at any time but He has resources.

AMH They go from strength to strength.

JT An abundant entrance into the everlasting kingdom is to be furnished. Peter brings that side out.

Rem In referring to the sons of a king, did you have in mind that these features should mark the saints on the public side? The sons of a mother would be more the inside position.

JT The idea of a mother is seen in the children. All these exercises of the assembly would be to bring forth what is like Christ. He represents the paternal side. You get paternal terms in the gospels.

Rem The scripture says, “each one”, not ‘they’.

JT Each one as he was put to death would be a testimony against his murderer.

Jotham in chapter 9 stands on mount Gerizim and makes a speech calling attention to the murderous character of Abimelech. He slew seventy persons on one stone. What a hard-hearted murderer he was! They were his own brothers. It shows what we are capable of — what a hard-hearted brother is capable ^[p. 188] of doing; there was no softening as one after another was murdered — seventy of them on one stone. Another thing that is to be noticed in the weakness of the paternal side is the incident of Jephthah’s daughter. Jephthah was an effective leader but was wanting in a right spirit, wanting in wisdom, marked by rashness — a rather unsuitable feature for leadership. He was rash in his words although he was a man that was careful to utter “all his words before Jehovah in Mizpah”. We are reminded of the need of wisdom in leadership so that no one should be sacrificed unnecessarily. There was no sense at all in his vow. It was rash, useless and unwise. The result of the victory ought to be increase, not the destruction of a potential mother through his rashness. You have to consider what the bearing of your words may be. They may seem sacrificial words, but who is to sacrifice? Is the sacrifice to be yourself? If I talk about sacrifice I ought to think whose the sacrifice is to be. The destruction of a virgin was contrary to all right thoughts.

Then we come to Manoah. He is mentioned much in the chapter in which we read. His wife’s name is not given, but the facts show that she was the more spiritual of the two. All this is to show that the order of God had been lost in these circumstances. The order of God seen in the selection of elders in the early days of the assembly has been lost and God has had recourse to the saints as a whole.

D Does Deborah in a way stand in contrast? Her husband’s name is given, Lapidoth.

JT His name is an honourable one, signifying ‘torch’ or ‘light’. It would mean that she, in principle, would have Jehovah as her Helper, He is represented there.

AMH Is your thought of Manoah that although a lead is being maintained it is not very spiritual?

There is a lack of Nazariteship in ^[p. 189] it.

JT That is what I was thinking. Like Barak he is fully recognised but not until he prays. An angel appeared to the woman (verse 3); she told her husband, and then Manoah prayed. She discerns him as a man of God, an angel, showing that she is spiritual, but it is wholesome to see that Manoah prayed. If you are being eclipsed in any position, why is it? God respects prayer. Manoah is praying in relation to his position as husband, but not excluding his wife, and we have the answer. “The Angel of God came again to the woman whilst she sat in the field”. He comes not yet to the man, but to the woman. All this is to remind us that we are behind a little and there is need to stir ourselves up. Why is it so? Why is God acting thus? What comes out here and throughout the book is the idea of a man and that God would provide someone. Here it is Samson, the last of the judges. There is a great deal made of him. Hannah prayed that a man child should be given, but here God is providing Himself what is needed for His people and He is moving in relation to what is most spiritual. Why should He not be moving in relation to the leading brothers? Why is not something being done by them? They ought to be in the front and everything come through them. Why is it otherwise? Manoah misses it right through, although he prays, which is good. In his remarks to the angel he is behind his wife and at the end he said they were going to be killed. He was wanting, he was unspiritual. His wife says, “If Jehovah were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt-offering and an oblation at our hands”. What an excellent speech! It is a deduction from the knowledge of God that she had. She is speaking now not from any direct word, but from her knowledge of God. That always stands by us.

Rem God will carry these things through, although we find ourselves in a day of ^[p. 190] weakness.

JT If there is one overcomer in the place He will stand by him in victory. He will move in that relation. He is very slow to pass by anyone that is a leader. If He does so it is because there is a secret cause. It is beautiful to see how the feminine side is ornamental in both these instances. There is no thought in either case to becloud or eclipse the man.

The head of the woman is the man. You see that maintained in Deborah. Barak was not her husband.

Headship is always found in the man even if he is not the husband.

Ques Is it important to see that time was needed to work out the result of this visit?

JT Yes, the ordered time. God does not work aside from His own appointed order.

Rem I was thinking of the years it would take for Samson to grow before there was result.

JT The exercise was there. Deliverance has come morally if God’s man is on the scene, so it says the woman bore a son. The Spirit of God soon began to move him and to call attention to him and the child grew, so that the hope of Israel was there.

One often looks at young brothers, they are the hope of Israel. Every young brother and sister should be looked at in that way. And from that point of view if they take it in and move according to the instructions given here as to nazariteship the Spirit of God will soon come upon them and the victory is complete.

AMH This careful instruction given us is that we may see that self-indulgence is the hindrance to leadership.

JT Flee youthful lusts. The light that God gives as to young people implies that the hope of Israel is there, because one generation passes away and another comes; and now this father and mother are already in possession of the light of God as to the position, and victory ^[p. 191] is certain.

JW What we have portrayed here is her true subjective state in moving with her husband.

JT True womanly qualities. Not a hint that she suggested to her husband that she got the visitation. A wife is apt to say things of that kind but there is not a hint of that here.

Another thing is the remarkable way in which the angel behaved, so as to induce spirituality and expectation of divine movements. “He did wondrously”. So that we are prepared for great things. I believe that is what the Lord is doing, preparing us for great things.

JM Does she lead in spirituality and foresight in naming the child, instead of Manoah doing it?

JT Well, Manoah ought to have done it. It says she did it. The Spirit of Jehovah began to move Samson so that now we have the Spirit of God coming in definitely.

Ques Is it one point that the witness is maintained right through? God operates in this way through the woman and by increase that there may be a testimony rendered right through.

JT It answers to what is coming on. God is endeavouring to bring us back to His order. The order of God in the assembly would be seen, not only that the enemy is to be overcome; that, I believe, is what is in mind in stressing the weakness of the leaders in this book.

Ques What is the suggestion as to the name?

JT Whatever the name means would be ex pressed in me. The name usually conveys what is to be expressed in a person. The angel’s name is secret. I suppose it alludes to what is inscrutable, God come out. Manoah was rather light, if not irreverent. He says, “Art thou the man that didst speak to the woman?” It does not seem to me as if he is just spiritual.

JW Would it be a lack of spiritual ^[p. 192] sensibility?

JT That is what I was thinking, and the angel’s answer indicated that. “How is it that thou askest after my name, seeing it is wonderful?” There is a certain distance. It is irreverence or want of spirituality to assume to be able to compass what God is doing.

Rem That is a particular feature of the present day. There has been that element seeking to compass what is beyond being found out. Wonderful things have come out since.

JT Every step of the Lord here from His birth onwards is incompassable. “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is”. Even in His manhood we cannot compass Him. He is beyond us and that ought to produce solemnity and reverence.

D It is one of the names of the Lord in Isaiah.

JT “Wonderful”.

Rem Is the woman’s superior intelligence shown in that she says, “A man of God came to me” in the first place?

JT That is what I was thinking. And he seemed to have the appearance of an angel to her.