THE LORD'S SERVICE IN A LOCALITY
THE LORD’S SERVICE IN A LOCALITY
Zechariah 3: 1 - 10; Zechariah 4: 1 - 14
JT I had in mind to treat of these chapters not from an ordinary, prophetic point of view but as containing instructions for us now, namely that the most is to be made of those available in the Lord’s service in any locality and generally. Joshua and Zerubbabel represent the two great features of help in the testimony, that is priestliness and authority — governorship is particularly applicable to Zerubbabel. The language used would show that while Joshua is styled the high priest there is great discrepancy between him and his office; we are told that he is standing before the angel of the Lord, that is he is qualified for the utmost consideration. Whatever his actual condition, there is hope, and Satan being present to resist him shows that active sympathy is called for and Jehovah undertakes the matter, as we see in verse 2.
I thought we might be helped to look at these scriptures in this way as applicable locally and generally, for whether we think of priestly conditions or the authority that is required, we are weak. Authority must be on moral grounds always. Still there is authority as represented in Zerubbabel.
PL Would the two thoughts be seen in Hebrews? While the state is weak (babes) the writer addresses the saints as “holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling” (Hebrews 3: 1); would that answer to the priestly thought in Zechariah? Then would “Obey your leaders” (chapter 13: 17) be the element that recognises authority in Zerubbabel?
JT I think that is good; it helps to open up this section. Conditions were low but still they were such as enabled God to be present, active, not hiding His face from His people and not alienated from them.
[p. 419] The position is that the garments of the high priest are not suitable; they are filthy; but he is standing before the angel of the Lord; he is not neglectful; he is alert. Satan understands and is there to resist him.
JC-S Is there a sense of obligation in being before the angel of Jehovah?
JT Well, in the sense that those who are more responsible among us have more obligations; they have to say to God. The fact that the angel is spoken of first indicates a certain distance, still he is representative of God, of Jehovah; and while there is a sense of obligation among us there is hope. Jehovah comes in and rebukes Satan, for Satan would endeavour to overwhelm us when things are low and blot out what is according to God.
AMH Do you regard the filthy garments of Joshua as the state of the people which he feels before God?
JT He is the high priest, so, if this describes him, what must be the state of the people? “As the people”, we are told, “so the priest”, Hosea 4: 9.
PL Would Samuel’s respect for feeble Eli illustrate chapter 3, and the way he respects the kingship in relation even to the anointing of Saul illustrate chapter 4?
JT The state of the priesthood was very low. There you have a Hannah to feel things before God which you have not got here, but I think Joshua here excels Eli, he is not sitting on a post or misjudging anybody. Joshua is standing before the angel. Eli misjudged Hannah, the most spiritual person in the community.
JFS Would you suggest that with Eli it was more his own personal condition, his own moral state; with Joshua it is more that his garments are suggestive of the people that surrounded [p. 420] him?
JT The people were in a low state in Eli’s time too.
PL Eli does feel the situation greatly in regard to the ark and Samuel regards him in that light.
JT He does. Eli recognises the evil conduct of his sons, still his state is very low. He was a fat man, he fell backward and died; he had a certain regard for the ark and there was general rectitude, but he was very feeble spiritually so that he was entirely set aside. Here we are in the most hopeful circumstances, for Jehovah Himself comes to resist the enemy who was seeking to take advantage of the current low state.
JC-S Do you think that is illustrated at Corinth in the low moral state, and God rebuking the enemy through Paul’s first epistle?
JT Yes, I think that is right. If God did not come in when things were low among us the case would be hopeless.
AMH Should we not charge ourselves with the state we note and carry it upon our spirits so that God might come in?
JT I think so. I am sure God has respect to us as seen in the extreme case described in Ezekiel; a mark was set upon the foreheads of those who sighed and cried.
AMH The point is our filthy garments.
JT Quite so. It has the general state in mind, God taking account of the uprightness of the high priest standing, not sitting as Eli was, but standing before the angel of the Lord. It is a very great matter; however feeble the general state may be, however much there may be to deplore, if the leading brethren are upright and standing before God about things, the position is hopeful.
CCC Would the word to Philadelphia — “a little strength” — have this in view?
JT Quite so. Something is there in the way of power.
[p. 421] JC-S Is it encouraging that the rebuke comes from “Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem”?
JT Yes, He is not thinking merely of the clothing of the high priest; He has Jerusalem in mind. Today the Lord has the assembly in mind, something of it in any given place. If He is considering for the saints it is that they might come out in that connection. It is a question here of divine choice, so that we are reminded of the high level when it says, “Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee ! Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” — like, “snatching them out of the fire” (Jude 23); it is a narrow escape for any of us, but the Lord has done it, taking up what is so weak and making it to stand in holy dignity and suitable garments.
PL Most of the epistles emphasise election.
JT It is the only hope; the real foundation to which we revert, the sovereignty of God, is the foundation. He has chosen Jerusalem; it is a question of His choice. Satan may be taking advantage of the people, but however low things may be, God enters into the lists against him directly, a very great matter, and you can always count on that; but I think it is in relation to the attitude of the high priest, standing before the angel, accepting his position and the responsibility of it; a man like this, though conscious of discrepancy, does not give in.
PL Would the faithful element in Moses and Caleb and Joshua enter the lists in regard of Satan’s accusations?
JT It would indeed. The Lord has chosen Jerusalem and He rebukes the devil. The saints are really the hopeful element represented in the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord in the recognition of what is pleasing to Him.
JC-S When the state is very low and there is danger, saints are apt to retreat from the priest.
JT I think there is often a holding back and a [p. 422] complaining attitude. As we see in Deborah’s song, when all should have come forward many were holding back, but those who went forward were signalised.
JFS Would verse 4 be encouragement for us in the conditions he spoke of, “Take away the filthy garments”?
JT Yes, “Those that stood before him” (verse 4) were addressed. These are priests; they are called to do something and thus we have standing: “I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by” (verse 7), and sitting: “Hear now, O Joshua, the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee” (verse 8), alluding to deliberation; the time has come for that. While there is this matter of filth, indicating the need for washing, it is a time for standing, being on the alert, meaning exercise in the sense of responsibility. Indifference to these things is so objectionable to God. Filth arising repels God from intervening for us, but when the thing is accepted and judged He comes in, and verse 8, I think, implies that we reach a state of things where we have peaceful deliberations and touch the line of the testimony where God is free to bring forward such terms as “the Branch” and “the graving” and can refer to the removal of the iniquity of the land. “In that day ... shall ye invite every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig-tree”; conditions are there of dignity, peace and prosperity suitable to the testimony.
PL Do we have the first reference to departing from iniquity in 2 Timothy, and then the places to walk among those that stand by, and then sitting?
JT That is very good. It is remarkable how the New Testament epistles open this up. God takes account of Joshua standing before the angel, and then those that are standing are given something to do in the way of removing the garments. That is a service that can be rendered, and then the word comes to Joshua, “See ... I clothe thee with festival-robes”,
[p. 423] and then in verse 5 we have, “Let them set a pure turban upon his head”. Evidently others are drawn into this and there is no reluctance in following out the mind of God in whatever way we may apply the thought of the removal of the filthy garments and the putting on of the turban. I suppose it is a matter of our thoughts, the way we clothe such persons. Jehovah says, “I clothe thee”; God has His part in it.
GHC Does this bring out the value of the priestly element, showing that there are those there who know the mind of God?
JT Yes, there are those who are prepared in such circumstances to stand before Him and they are available to do something. Things are not allowed to remain dormant; we cannot be restful while such conditions prevail. As we move God moves and we reach verse 7, “Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge”. Verses 6 and 7 bring in priestly responsibility as regards walk and what is required in a priest. We are reaching the ground of confirmation and establishment where it is understood that God is committing something to us and we are given a place on this ground among those that stand by.
Ques Does “Those that stand by” refer to standing among the saints?
JT Yes, that is the idea, I think. It says, “If thou wilt walk in my ways ... I will give thee a place to walk among these that stand by”, as if there were such. The Lord never gives up this thought; even in Corinth there were those that stood by. It is more or less abstract but God is intimating on moral lines the kind of persons who are to judge His house and keep His courts; so that we know who is who.
PL Vessels to honour, serviceable to the Master.
JT That is right. They are marked off.
CCC Would what you are saying explain why [p. 424] the priestly side seems to come into view before the authoritative side? Often authority is presented first.
JT That is how the truth stands in Corinthians but the priestly side is concurrent, I think. There were those there who undoubtedly stood before the Lord, and through them the information comes that was required for the divine intervention, and we can understand how they would be regarded as being spiritual; they would be amongst those who stand by. The whole position at Corinth had to be adjusted, for they were in a state of confusion. Elders are not mentioned; we cannot, however, assume that there were not any.
S.F. The house of Chloe?
JT Yes, and Stephanas and others, doubtless.
JC-S Do you think the position is sometimes damaged by the priests’ garments and instead of there being a rally there is a recession?
JT Yes, a holding back, a complaining attitude, but verses 8 to the end show that God is aiming at a very high level. There is the removal of the filthy garments and festival ones are put on; thus a state of fixity is reached, so that we know how we are. There are those who are standing by, who are on the line of walking in divine ways and keeping the charge. A state of fixity should, I think, be always amongst us. Sometimes it is lost sight of on account of the low state of the saints.
RHC Would you explain more clearly what you mean by saying that God would have us know who is who?
JT “I will give thee a place to walk among these that stand by”. If God gives a man a place you cannot overlook it, you must observe it.
PL Would it be priestly appraisement in place of preferences?
JT That is it. If God gives a man a place, someone [p. 425] is standing by — Jehovah Himself stood by — and if God gives a man a place in that way it is to be observed.
AMH If God gives a man a place it is based on a secret history of walking in His ways and keeping His charge.
JT What exercises there would be secretly, as you know all the forces of evil against you! God would say, ‘That man is fit to carry out My thoughts’, for He has His thoughts in regard to Zion and His house, and if there is a man He can give a place to, then these things go on and the testimony is restored. He desires to get someone to whom He can give a place spiritually, and that is a fixture, God reaching His own thoughts. He has got Zion and Jerusalem and His house in mind and in order to reach His thoughts He must have a man, or men, and He gives them a place among those who stand by.
PL You have that illustrated in Luke’s gospel in the Lord saying to the one in the lowest room, “Friend, go up higher”.
JT That is what is aimed at here. Joshua is to be known as one qualified to judge in the house — “thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts”. It is not one particular person today, but you see the principle.
JFS Is that why the “men of portent” are brought in in verse 8?
JT Verse 8 assumes what precedes in verse 7. Joshua has reached this point and has now got fellows. He rises thus to a type of Christ, who has His companions. What a happy thing that is — brethren in the happy state of companionship sitting in dignity so as to deliberate and take counsel!
PL Would you say that in that atmosphere God is free according to the end of verse 8 to bring forth His thought of Christ as “the Branch”?
JT Well, the Branch is the great appellation [p. 426] of Christ, One who is dependent. I suppose the idea of a branch is dependence. If we have reached the position at all this is the only ground on which it can be maintained. And then, further, we have, “Behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua”. And now we have the perfection of intelligence — seven eyes — alluding to perception, so that nothing can be carried on in an underhand way; there is power to discern what the conditions are. This stone is laid before Joshua, showing how God is reaching His own thought by this process.
PL Would the stone with the seven eyes suggest intelligence in connection with the work of God?
JT I think so. Of course it is a foundation if you carry it forward, a tried stone, a sure foundation, but here it is the idea of permanency. We are on the line of permanency and perception. Things cannot be carried on in an underhand or clandestine way among the brethren under these circumstances.
AMH Does the idea of seven Spirits of God which are sent forth into all the earth suggest a very wide area of observation?
JT Yes; “these are the eyes of Jehovah that run to and fro in the whole earth” (chapter 4: 10). In chapter 3 it is more restricted to a locality, a permanent state of things and perception.
JC-S What we spoke of as a fixed idea?
JT I think so. I think the stone denotes a state of permanency.
JC-S Sometimes we are confronted with a difficulty in a city: two or three brothers in prominence having a kind of understanding and things being carried on without the saints being really aware of them.
JT Well, I think this chapter is to enable us to reach a state where we have the house in mind — Jerusalem. As soon as you get the house of God you must have all. “Whose house are we” — it includes all the saints.
EBMcC I suppose it would be call those who stand by, not just two or three brothers, but all.
JT All should be in it; the “angel of the assembly” implies all. What has been said lately as to Corinthians ought to be considered. Where low conditions exist (and we can hardly speak of any other anywhere; it has to be accepted that it is a day of small things; the chapters before us contemplate it), where brokenness is suggested it is better to bring in all the saints, to make each one responsible. That makes room for the Spirit and allows eldership and whatever is of God to have place. The work of God is sure to show itself, and by bringing in all we give a wider sphere for the Spirit, and there is less likelihood for an undercurrent of feeling than if we leave things in the hands of certain ones.
JFS What about verse 10, every man inviting his neighbour?
JT That is the end to be reached, peace and prosperity. You notice progress. “Behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith Jehovah of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of this land in one day”. That means not only that the individual is clear but that the sphere is cleared, the sphere in which the saints are moving and in which God is moving; there is a general state of clearness and a general state of peace and prosperity.
JC-S To reach general clearness would involve a process of self-judgment with the saints?
JT Clearly. So every man invites his neighbour — every man — what a happy state of things it is! You do not select your guests, it is the brother nearest you, your neighbour.
GAC Would it be right to say that while it applies to all it is only those who are standing by who get the gain of [p. 428] it?
JT It says every man; all the saints are to come into the gain of it; every man invites his neighbour under his vine and fig-tree; a state of peace and prosperity exists, a happy state where we are not afraid of each other.
PL “All the brethren salute you. Salute one another with a holy kiss ... . My love be with you all in Christ Jesus” is the end of 1 Corinthians.
JT Well, quite so. A great change must have come over the assembly at Corinth after God had done His work. He is aiming not only at individuals but at the land, the sphere in which we are, so that all get the gain of it.
EHB On the same line as in the epistle to the Romans where the believer is justified and the accuser checked and then the Spirit comes in and the testimony goes on in liberty.
JT Where we have conditions of peace and prosperity the neighbour is always a test: “Love thy neighbour as thyself”, Leviticus 19: 18. Zechariah 4 brings out the place the Spirit is to have, for these results can only be maintained by the Spirit; that is chapter 4.
EBMcC Christ as the Branch in the midst.
JT That is the thought of dependence which is seen perfectly in Christ.
JC-S The idea of the Branch is carried forward in that way. God’s authority could only be taken up on that line.
JT Just so. The Branch is dependent on something, it does not bear fruit of itself — not that Christ personally could not do so, but He takes the dependent place here, and that is our place. So that chapter 4 is occupied with the Spirit, or the results of the Spirit viewed as in their workings, such as priestly service, leadership, or eldership. Authority must be there and these things are only maintained by the Spirit. It is a question of moral power.
[p. 429] CCC Would the lampstand all of gold involve the full light of God?
JT Yes. Now that the assembly or Jerusalem or the house is reached in chapter 3, the lamp would mean that testimony is shining out, the mind of God; He goes the full length of His own thoughts in recovery among us, and I suppose this lamp all of gold represents what is in the mind of God, what He would have on earth in any locality. He would enrich our mind with what is in His mind. We see the element of authority in Zerubbabel, and that is to go through, rising to what it is in Christ.
JC-S We would cling to original ideas in the mind of God.
JT Yes, that is what all these meetings are for; they are of temple character, that we might come into line with the mind of God, the richness of the mind of God, the lamp all of gold.
PL Would this connect with having been asleep (Zechariah 4: 1)? Does it refer to the sleep of the church alluded to in the epistle to the Ephesians, “Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead”, Ephesians 5:14?
JT Yes, they are now on other ground; it is a question of awaking to get the thoughts of God. We have reached them as regards ourselves in chapter 3; now He would enrich us with His own thoughts. Zechariah is awakened out of sleep to something wonderful, and what he sees is a lamp-stand all of gold and the seven lamps and the seven pipes and two olive trees (Zechariah 4: 2, 3). How wonderfully furnished! The thing is set up by God. We have the possibility of light going forth and there is moral authority, for it is largely a question of authority in chapter 4, but the priestly side underlies it. Chapter 4 takes us round to what is in the mind of God. There is light and the means of it in the Spirit [p. 430] and the establishment of these two thoughts, priesthood and governorship.
AMH Why has authority so much place?
JT I think it is essential to have authority: the last days require it for we have reached the democratic times of iron and clay, mixture, whereas God would stress pure governorship, authority set out in Christ and reflected in those who can exercise it. The Lord alluded to the man who called his bondmen and gave them, not simply authority, but the authority and they were to continue in it and watch till he came; and that is a matter to be noted. Bondmanship implies moral authority.
PL “Ourselves your bondmen for Jesus’ sake”. Is that authority based on moral worth?
JT Quite so.
AMH You are stressing that unless authority is recognised there will not be activity of the Spirit?
JT Exactly. He maintains that. The word is to Zerubbabel, “Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts”. Eldership or leadership is a spiritual matter.
AMH That would preserve those who have authority from forceful methods.
JT Quite so. It is the quiet, steady, resistless power of the Spirit. Hosts appear, mountains rise; what are we going to do? “Who art thou, O great mountain?” Before Zerubbabel the difficulty disappears, “he shall bring forth the headstone with shoutings: Grace, grace unto it!” That is, he is not thinking of himself but of Christ. He will do it with shoutings.
AMH Is your thought that there is a solution which magnifies Christ?
JT Yes. He brings the headstone with shoutings and puts it on.
PL Is not this the fruit of conflict? There is continual spoil out of it, [p. 431] too.
JT Yes, before Zerubbabel, that is a man of this type. We are only taking the moral side, of course. There is great prophetic bearing in this. It is the kind of man that is in mind. It speaks of a state of spiritual leadership, for leadership is not in one exactly; it is a state found there, it is found in all, for the youngest christian should be able to lead someone.
CCC So that authority would have a distinct bearing on the flowing out of light from the lampstand.
JT Yes. All these things we are speaking of are light, the very doings are light, but it is before him, before Zerubbabel, a very suggestive thing; evil will go down, it melts away in the presence of what is presented here, the mountain becomes a plain.
EB Being in the good of this we are well able to go up, as Caleb and Joshua said.
JT The mountain was there for the ten spies but not for Caleb and Joshua; before them it melted away.
FS Does the headstone imply that the building is going to be finished?
JT And finished in an ornamental way, with beauty. “He shall bring forth the headstone with shoutings: Grace, grace unto it!”
GAC Is there a moral order in all this, so that a person’s house is set in order and then he invites his neighbour?
JT The light is shining and thus the difficulties vanish. Then we have a wider thought brought in in the seven, the spirit of intelligence among the brethren. “For who hath despised the day of small things? Yea, they shall rejoice — even those seven”, rejoicing in what is current; seven is the perfection of divine intelligence in whomsoever that intelligence may be seen. Wherever you see it you rejoice in what is current in the progress of the testimony and in the way God is reaching His end before the church is [p. 432] removed. We are brought into all that. “And shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel: these are the eyes of Jehovah, which run to and fro in the whole earth” — a very important matter to discern, to have intelligence, as to how things are on the earth, what is current. So that there is not a thing current upon the earth that is not under the eye of the Lord and it is to be under the eye of the spiritual as well, as “these seven” allude to spiritual intelligence.
PL Would the plummet in that way be like the cross? In relation to everything that transpires on the earth the saints have a judgment about it according to God.
JT That is right. It is the standard by which things are measured. Amos sees a plumb-line; that is the divine standard. And now the final thought first we have seven running through, and then two; that is adequate testimony. The seven eyes of Jehovah running to and fro and then the “two sons of oil, that stand before the Lord of the whole earth”; so that the full position of the testimony is secured not only locally but universally, and maintained in full growth under the Holy Spirit, all the saints being brought into it energetically while discernment and the authority of Christ are maintained in the assembly.