THE GLORY IN THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (2)
[p. 35] THE GLORY IN THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (2)
John 11: 4; John 13: 31, 32; John 16: 14; John 17:1 - 5; John 17:22, 24
JT We might continue our subject of yesterday — the glory of Christ as mentioned in John’s gospel.
JC-S Would you be free to give us an outline of the last meeting?
JT We read from chapter 1, dwelling on verse 14, which speaks of the glory of an only-begotten with a father, which John and his fellow-apostles contemplated. It was thought that it conveyed the radiation of affection between the Father and the Son as introductory to the great family thought that runs through the gospel of John. And then in chapter 2, the verse read spoke of the manifestation of Christ’s glory in the signs which He wrought. “This beginning of signs”, in chapter 2, alluded more to public testimony, particularly towards His disciples. It says they “believed on him”. And then chapter 7: 39 speaks of His glory as received, His exaltation into heaven, in consequence of which the Spirit is here and flowing out from the believer in testimony, the testimony therefore coming out immediately, that is, through the saints towards the world, as rivers of living water.
I thought that these three passages open up the dispensation in which we are, the dispensation of grace, which has been called the day of the Spirit, the Spirit’s day in the sense of testimony in grace, not in the sense spoken of in chapter 1. Later the Spirit is seen as a divine Person here under the title of Comforter or Paraclete, leading to the inner features of the truth, standing indeed in connection with what is before us now, that is, these features of the glory of Christ bearing on the assembly. The first is chapter 11; the verse read says, “This sickness”, that is the sickness of Lazarus, “is not unto death,
[p. 36] but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by it”, so that it is the Son of God, not in the sense of chapter 1: 14, but evidently in power. In chapter 1 it is the affection between the Father and the Son, the Son viewed as the Only-begotten. Here it is Son of God, a title which has a great place in Scripture, even in the Old Testament. The epistle to the Romans (laying the foundation of the gospel) says He is “declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead”. That is what is here before us now as the first phase of our subject.
AMH Are you viewing this sickness as indicating conditions that exist among the saints as taken up by God, and in which God is going to be glorified?
JT I think that is good. It is a question now of the family. We are told at the beginning of the chapter that there was a certain man sick, Lazarus, in the village of Mary and Martha, his sisters. It was “that Mary” who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother was sick, and the sisters send to Jesus. Then we are told, “Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus” (verse 5). That is, they were a family in the sense of brother and sisters, not in the sense of a household with parents, but it is a selected circumstance as we had yesterday. It was a family circumstance in the sense of a marriage in chapter 2; in chapter 4 it is a family circumstance in the sense of a child ill in the house; here again it is an illness, in a brother of two sisters. In chapter 4 it is a parent concerned about a child; indeed the idea in chapter 4 is the son; the Lord says, “thy son liveth”. The Spirit says at the outset, introducing the subject, “there was a certain courtier in Capernaum whose son was sick”, and the man calls the son a child; but the Lord says, “Go, thy son lives”; the thought of sonship is there in a family. Here it is the brother,
[p. 37] and it would be in this chapter an allusion to a condition arising amongst us, the condition serving as an occasion for the glory of God; that the Son of God should be glorified.
JC-S So that the disabilities or disqualifications that might exist amongst members of the family become an occasion for the exhibition of divine power.
JT Well, that is what is seen in these instances. The Lord goes beyond the actual meeting of the conditions; there is excess here; there is glory, the glory of God and the glory of the Son of God, here. A condition therefore of this kind involves an increase of spiritual wealth.
FW Have you in mind that this is something beyond physical sickness?
JT Well, it has just been suggested that it is an allusion to a condition that may arise in the family. In chapter 2 purification is stressed because of the conditions that arose, the wine failing, running out; here it is not that side. The Lord states that this sickness was for a specific purpose, namely, for the glory of God and that the Son of God should be glorified by it.
JC-S I think you have already remarked that John seems to select circumstances and puts them into settings that will bring them under tribute to glory in that way.
JT That is what I think is seen throughout this gospel. Here there is no blame implied. It is what is common, that is, sickness and death; but in this instance it was in the family, sickness and death were invading the family, those whom Jesus loved, and the question arises how He may be reckoned on to come in in an emergency.
GC Does that suggest that the glory of God is connected in resurrection wholly with the Spirit’s sphere?
JT [p. 38] Well, it shows that the glory of God is connected with it. To say all is connected with it is a little more than should be said, perhaps, for resurrection is not finality, you know. The culmination of this incident is in chapter 12, seen here on earth, not going as far as the heavenly calling of the saints. It is on the way to the full thought of God. Paul spoke about it, desiring to attain to the resurrection of the dead, to arrive at it; but then he proceeds to speak of the “calling on high of God in Christ Jesus”. The latter goes further; it implies heavenly glory, that is the accomplishment of divine counsel and God shining out in that connection. There is glory attached to His power, His love entering into it, but there is glory attached to His counsels.
JC-S I quite follow you. Speaking of the Lord coming in in connection with some circumstances as found in the family, do you suggest that is the outcome of concern which exists on the part of members of the family inviting Him to come in to deal with the situation?
JT Hence it says, “The sisters therefore sent to him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick”; that is, they put the matter on the ground of His love. It is not the one whom we love, or our brother, it is “whom thou lovest”, an understanding of the place that the sick person had in the affections of Christ, a very important matter in these things, and what the person is who is affected, what he is in the affections of Christ.
FS Is it significant that the sisters send?
JT Well, quite so. They were all loved. Martha is mentioned first, for love, I think, as seen here is to equalise conditions amongst the brethren. Mary had a place; she is mentioned first as the one who anointed the Lord — “that Mary” — showing that her action in chapter 12 is in mind and there is to be a great result from this — worship really is to be the outcome,
[p. 39] a very great result. But still the equalisation of things amongst us is important, so that we may not rest unduly on distinguished persons amongst us. I think that thread runs through the chapter. So Martha is mentioned first. It says, “Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus”. When we come to chapter 12, we have Lazarus mentioned first as in the town, and then Martha, then Lazarus has his place at the table, and then Mary is mentioned. I think there is a thread running through, the instruction of equalisation. No one in the circle of fellowship should be lost sight of, nor obscured unduly. So that when the Lord arrives at Bethany, Martha meets Him first and He stays there where Martha met Him, until Mary arrives. He does not go to where Mary is; Mary has to come to where Martha met Christ. I think the glory of the Son of God would mean that the most is to be made of every saint. Although some may exceed in measure, the most is to be made of every saint, no one is to be lost sight of.
PL So that we have in Philemon, “Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints; that the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus” (verse 6).
JT That is right — “every good thing”. However minute a good thing may be, it must be made the most of: “If there be any virtue, and if there be any praise”.
PL For “the gold of that land is good”.
JFS The point you are stressing is what they were each to the Lord. “Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus”; they were all on an equal footing in the consideration of the Lord.
JT They were all loved by Him, and the most is to be made of what there is. The equalising principle brings into evidence what there is, though it [p. 40] may be small and apt to be discounted and neglected, but the glory of the Son of God will bring everything there is of God into evidence, and make the most of it. The “little sister” is to be in mind. And so Romans stresses the need of watching one that is weak in the faith; the most must be made of him. It is a question of the work of God.
PL “And the brother Quartus”, Romans 16: 23.
JT Quite so — the brother. The glory of the Son of God would bring out and make the most of the gold, what is in that land, but then there is the operative side. When we come to service, to operations, a man or a brother is what he is; the glory of the Son of God will maintain fully what the brother is, even if he be discounted by the brethren; the Lord will see to it that his full value will be recognised in time. So in chapter 12 where we come to operations Lazarus does nothing, he represents dignity, he sits at the table with the Lord; Martha serves and Mary worships. That is, the quality comes into evidence when they make Him a supper; when something is to be done for Christ, measures will soon come into evidence, and that is what is so important in local assemblies, to make room for life. Eldership and government are only in the sense of keeping and dressing a garden, and certainly not to dwarf any growth in the garden; that would be contrary to the divine appointment, it is rather to make room for growth so that there should be the fullest development. And if room is made for the working out of life then we have each one’s measure — and we can see it if we go into the garden; if there is no one interfering with the growth of any tree, or plant, or flower.
PL “And the four living creatures said, Amen; and the elders fell down and did homage”, Revelation 5: 14. Is that the thought of the elders making room for life and the fruit of [p. 41] it?
JT I think that is what those chapters in Revelation teach us, the elders are twenty-four in number and greatly dignified, for they have golden crowns and thrones. They are fully owned as elders but the living creatures are allowed full play. They cease not day and night to say, “Holy, holy, holy” to God, and when they do that the elders fall down and worship, that is chapter 4. In chapter 5 the living creatures are mentioned first, for now it is a question of life and energy, the Lamb slain standing in the midst of the throne and of the living creatures and of the elders. It is a question now of energy, and full scope is given to the living creatures and elders, and there again we get worship. It is to maintain the balance between government in the house of God and life. These chapters in Revelation work this principle out so very instructively. Life must have full scope and if life is of God, God is behind life. If there is no hindrance, then each plant, or each tree, or each flower, whatever it be, is on its own and we get the full result.
PL Would this poise between government and life be illustrated by Peter and John as found together in the beginning of the Acts?
JT Quite so; that is the best combination possible in Peter and John. They are seen together and move together in service, but then in due course they come back again unto their own. “Having been let go, they came to their own” after their sufferings. Then we see the full merging of equalities. They shine by themselves, but in the company others shine too. But all the apostles come into evidence in chapter 4. It is a great principle, this principle of equalisation, which implies there is full scope given to the working of life and what goes with life, that is intelligence.
AW The Lord could say of Lazarus, “Loose him and let him go”.
JT That gives him scope, he can be trusted, and the early verses of chapter 12 are to bring out the results of letting him go. There are other allusions to glory that have not been read in this section in chapter 12. There is the remarkable fact that in verse 16 the disciples remembered that these things were written of Jesus when He was glorified. The glorification of Christ is connected with the ability of the saints to remember what is written of Him, that is, the Old Testament is brought into view, and apprehended in the light of the glory of Christ. In Luke 24 the Lord is risen and beginning at Moses He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself; the exposition was on the ground of resurrection, but the apprehension, the recalling of the things is after He is glorified, showing that glorification is the grand end in mind; the full result is in the glorification of Christ.
CC Is your thought in these meetings that we should be instructed as to the fulness of glory which is ours to be soon manifested?
JT I think that is the result we should reach. Full scope is given to the glory of Christ even as to our understanding of the Old Testament. The bearing of the Old Testament is the glory, it is not simply that things are to be on the basis of resurrection, but on that of the heavenly position, the full heavenly thought, for the tabernacle was a pattern, a figurative representation of the things in the heavens and therefore it was filled with the glory in Exodus.
CC That is particularly necessary in this day of brokenness and confusion outwardly.
JT You can see how powerful an incentive it is to leave the world. A great part of the world has become christianised, and the glory of man fills it, and God’s people are in it; it is really Babylon, and God presents to us the glorious system of things outside of it, in order to maintain us in [p. 43] this system.
PL As to this golden thread of glory running through the Old Testament, is that thought confirmed in chapter 12: 41, “These things said Esaias because he saw his glory and spoke of him”?
JT I was going to remark on that. It brings in the thought that there were those in the Old Testament that saw the glory — and as seeing it they spoke of Christ, suggesting to us that no one can rightly speak of Christ except as they see His glory: “These things said Esaias”.
PL Are not the whole levitical credentials in 1 Corinthians 4 based on the beholding of the glory of the Lord and Paul further saying, “Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?” 1 Corinthians 9: 1?
JT Very good. As if the Lord had in mind that in seeing Him he should have a right basis for his ministry, the ministry of glory. Then chapter 13 brings out the moral glory of Christ. When Judas went out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God also shall glorify him in himself, and shall glorify him immediately”; the allusion evidently is to the cross, Judas being instrumental to the Lord being crucified, and that the Lord should show in His death the place God had with Him. He would go through in entire submission to the will of God, and carry out the will of God, another great thought for us, as we might say, on the down line, the glory in going down to the will of God.
AMW Have you in mind man going out in degradation in Judas, and the true Man coming in in glory in the Son of man?
JT I think that is good. The Man who is morally glorified in going down into death — Judas affording the way; a sorrowful reminder of the history of christendom is that the Lord has been betrayed. If we take John as coming in in the last days when the Lord has been betrayed, we have to do with the [p. 44] result of that and how moral glory shines in going down. There is no other way to meet this situation and the immediate glory follows. “If God be glorified in him” — it is the Son of man here — “God ... shall glorify him immediately”, that is, God glorifies the Son immediately on account of this.
PL Would you say that the spirit of going down with us would bring its harvest of glory in fresh light from God as to Christ and the assembly? Is that not the heritage of a suffering remnant that has afflicted its soul in these dark days?
JT I think you get immediate results, though there are things we have to wait for. Jacob brings in the idea of waiting; he said, “I wait for thy salvation” (Genesis 49: 18), that is, our patience is tested by waiting. Here we have immediate results, an immediate answer to the downward path. The Lord had not to wait for the full glory, He would be glorified at once by the Father. He would get immediate glory.
PL So that if the downward path of 1 Corinthians 13 is taken, there is moral glory in chapter 14.
JT I think so. I think that is what God is working out, how He is known. “Yet chew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence”, the way of love, the downward way. Then what there is in the assembly as such is contemplated in chapter 14, and there you look for the upward way. It is a poor thing if one has to take the downward way among the brethren; it is not that one should not do it, but the assembly should afford opportunity for the up line, that is where love is. Conditions in the assembly ought to be in accord with God in honouring those who serve, those who go down for the sake of the testimony. The assembly ought to afford conditions for the up line — “The man whom the king delighteth to honour”. So in chapter 14 you see, I think, the prophetic ministry — “rather that ye may prophesy”. In prophecy there is glory. What can be more to be desired than to bring God in, and in that, even simultaneously, the distinction that God puts upon a prophet.
JC-S The glory that will distinguish him in that way will be commensurate with the measure in which he has gone down.
JT Well, that is how it works, so that chapter 14 says, “If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place”, and then later it says, “each of you has a psalm” and so on. That is, one is tested by what one has, and it would become manifest because the others are to judge to see what is there, the wealth that exists there. In Exodus the glory comes in in relation to the anointing, each part of the tabernacle being in its place and functioning in its place; but the glory comes in in 2 Chronicles on account of the wealth that was present. There were distinguished persons. The glory in the temple stands in relation to the wealth of distinguished persons rather than to anyone there. God will see to it that distinguished persons are owned. In Exodus it is that each has cost half a shekel in the tabernacle in that setting, and the tabernacle is anointed; but in 1 and 2 Chronicles it is a question of personal wealth, as if God would honour personal wealth in relation to the temple.
JC-S I take it that the persons who are distinguished in that way have gathered up the wealth by having already gone down, so that glory comes in.
JT David leads in the way of glory in that setting. He speaks of one hundred thousand talents of gold provided by him, and then a certain amount of gold of the finest quality, and then princes are to provide. It is not the mutual side, as we call it; great stress has been laid lately on the mutual side, that is, every brother and sister brought into the working of the assembly; that is really Exodus. In 1 and 2 [p. 46] Chronicles it is personal wealth, that is what is acquired by going down; by conflict, by personal suffering.
GC Does all this come to light to call our attention to the Son of God, the way He moves, so that we might be encouraged to go that way?
JT That is the idea, and how, as we have noted, He is glorified immediately. That is how God carries on, that you may be sure that God will take account of you.
EESL How is it that in the resurrection of Lazarus it is the Son of God that is glorified, that is God Himself, and when Judas goes out it is the Son of man glorified?
JT The Son of man lifted up is the line of truth running through John, and I think having in mind His sufferings, the Son of man is lifted up in chapter 3. In chapter 1 the Son of man is to be the object of heaven, the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of man (verse 51). In chapter 3 He is lifted up “as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness” (verse 14). In chapter 8 He is regarded as lifted up by the Jews, and in chapter 12 we have, “I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me” (verse 32).
It alludes to His sufferings, I think. The line of truth in connection with the Son of man involves the humiliation sufferings.
EESL I thought He undertook this on behalf of mankind.
JT I think that is right. The wide bearing of the Son of man is the whole race of mankind.
JFS Does the Son of God suggest the up line, and the Son of man the down line?
JT Well, generally I think it is connected with the humiliation sufferings — the phrase “lifted up” meaning the ignominious death by which He died. “This he said signifying by what death he was about to die” — that is, the death [p. 47] of the cross.
JFS Would the glorification of the Son of man be seen in relation to the world to come, and the glorification of the Son of God more in relation to what He is doing in the assembly?
JT I have no doubt that the allusion to the Son of man in chapter 1 is millennial, the wider glory. Nathanael recognises Him as the King of Israel, not as Son of man. The Lord goes wider and says, “Thou shalt see greater things than these”. The angels were ascending and descending upon the Son of man. I have no doubt the millennium is in mind there. The Son of God is in relation to the counsels of God, the effectuation of the counsels of God.
JFS Would the Son of God be a more limited idea than the Son of man in that way?
JT Well, the sense in which Nathanael spoke of it would confine it to Psalm 2, but the Son of God as presented by Paul would be for the effectuation of the counsels of God, particularly for the establishment of another world, that is, a spiritual world. But Son of man is on the line of carrying out divine thoughts on the earth as seen fully in the millennium, how man will be blessed nationally. So that chapter 17 brings out the full thought in that sense, “Glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee”. And He is to give eternal life to all that the Father gives Him, having authority over all flesh, that is, He glorifies God in that way. Chapter 16 is the presence of the Spirit here, not now water flowing out, rivers of living water flowing out as in chapter 7, but the personal glorification of Christ. The Spirit is set for that in the ministry, the personal glorification of Christ.
JFS I was wondering why the thought here as “Son of God”, or “Son of man” is dropped, it is “Glorify thy Son”.
JT Here it is the glorification of the Father. The Lord has in mind the glorification of the Father as based on the Father’s glorification of Him. You can hardly think of the Son of God as a Man being brought in there, it is a question of divine Persons, One glorifying the Other — remarkable truth! — the Father glorifying the Son, and then the Son glorifying the Father. We have the Spirit glorifying the Son in chapter 16, and we have God glorifying the Son of man in chapter 13, but here it is the Father glorifying the Son, so that the Son should glorify the Father.
We are on a very exalted plane here.
JCS Is it not very affecting to think of Him as desiring to be taken out of the conditions of humiliation that He might still go on in the glorification of the Father as He had done here in the days of His humiliation?
JT Yes, we are at the end of this chapter of instruction that John alone gives us — on the eve of the Lord’s departure out of this world. He is going to the Father, He says. Chapters 13, 14, 15 and 16 deal with that, the mighty current flowing in the Lord’s mind culminating in this chapter. Then having said these things, that is the things related earlier in the long discourses, He “lifted up his eyes to heaven”.
Now we have interchange of thought between the Father and the Son, not that the Father is speaking, although that is the suggestion. The Son is speaking, but to bring out the exalted relation in which He was in this active service — that it is the Son here serving the Father — and now the time has come for the Father to act and glorify Him, and then there would be a further glorification of the Father.
JC-S Do you take it that He does that in the assembly at the present time?
JT Well, I think in the gift of eternal life, as it says, “As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
whom thou hast sent”. He has in mind the thought of eternal life — a very great thought that perhaps is very little understood after all we have had as to it.
CC Why is it that we as creatures are permitted to hear this if it is a transaction between divine Persons Themselves, the glorification of Each Other?
JT Is it not very elevating to be permitted to hear it, and the Spirit giving you understanding that you are in the audience of these words, leading up to verse 5, which is the highest thought suggested anywhere, that the Lord should return to His own place and be glorified with the glory which He had along with the Father before the world was. I think, as alongside of Christ, we touch the Absolute in this way.
SF Would you suggest that heaven was short of some special point of glory and triumph until that blessed Man ascended there in manhood where He had been eternally in Deity?
JT Yes, I suppose you are entitled to say that He carried humanity back into that, although the Person is more in mind. “The glory which I had along with thee before the world was”. The Person is more in mind, I think. If He said “the Son of man”, or if He said even “Thy Son” the thought of His humanity would be stressed, but when He says “I”, I think we ought to just confine it to the Person as touching the inscrutable, not that humanity is laid down or that it is ever suggested that it is, but still there is the inscrutable and the return to conditions of Deity. These are thoughts that are beyond us. We are just let into the Absolute alongside of Christ; He speaks of His Father and His God. We are permitted to be alongside of Him in His words that we might get some little inkling of what is beyond that, of what belongs to the Absolute, the link really is with Him. The link between the Absolute and Relative is in Christ.
EESL Is that why the Lord uttered these [p. 50] things to His Father, but in the presence of His disciples? I think verse 13 would throw light upon it — “that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves”.
JT That is true. Is it not so that as we are permitted to hear what passes, that joy is occasioned in our hearts, but still there it is? The Lord in His remarks here touches on the Absolute — “The glory which I had with thee before the world was”. There is a link there — you feel you are there, but you cannot participate in that. It is beyond us. He speaks about the glory He had that had been given Him (verse 22), and then again in verse 24, “that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me”. These are the glories. The first we participate in, and the second we behold, but verse 5 is beyond either of these, but you know it is there, and you are brought, as near as the creature can be brought, into touch with the Absolute.
JFS Would that come in as to the thought of association that the Lord is leading up to in the chapter? Would it lend dignity to it? I refer to the Lord’s desire that we should be found with Him in the same place, and loved with the same love wherewith He is loved. That leads us to the thought of association.
JT Well, now, let us see. In verse 22, “the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world”. I am not so sure that we should use the word ‘association’ in the ordinary sense of our being His [p. 51] brethren there.
JFS I was thinking of verse 26 particularly. “I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them”.
JT Well, that is the love of the Father, the kind of love the Father has for the Son. There are three kinds of love really as we are together in the assembly. There is the love of Christ, and in the covenant the love of God, and then there is the love the Father has for the Son, and this last verse shows that we should have the same kind of love; that is, the kind of love the Father has for Him. The love the Father has for the Son is not covenant love; it is the love of a father for a son, and we are to have a similar love, but it will, of course, take the form of our being the Lord’s brethren. I mean that we should love Him in that sort of way — we are in family love — but I think that His desire that they may “be with me where I am” goes beyond what we get in Romans”firstborn among many brethren”. That is properly association. Here it is to behold His glory. I do not know that I have made that clear, but it seems to me that this chapter is unique, and although it touches on other things and may include them (such as Romans 8), yet there is a peculiar distinction attaching to Christ in all that you get in this chapter.
JC-S He is alone here, not exactly as a pattern, but what He is in Himself in that association with the Father.
JT Well, you notice the distinction He has. He does share a certain glory that the Father has given Him with us, that is, His disciples, in verse 22, but in verse 24 He says, “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me”. That is, He has in mind that He may be beheld in a peculiar glory the Father gives Him which they can see. It is not a glory that they [p. 52] participate in, but which they behold. It does not go so far as verse 5 where He links it with the love the Father had for Him before the foundation of the world. Verse 5 is the highest in this set of glories; verse 24 is the next, and verse 22 is the next. I should like to know what the brethren think about that.
That is, the glory He had along with the Father in verse 5, then the glory they are to behold, which He links with the Father’s love before the foundation of the world in verse 24, and then the glory that is communicable to us in verse 22. I think there is a gradual rising from verse 22 to verse 24 and then to verse 5.
AMH Do you think that verse 24 indicates the place love had assigned to Him “before the world was”, and implies affections in relation to that place for Him even in eternity?
JT I suppose that is right. It is something that the creature may behold, and it is linked with the love the Father had for Him before the world was, so it must have an allusion to the counsels of God, the distinctive glory He has as Man in His counsels.
AMH Manhood is in view, although all that is spoken of transpired in eternity.
JT Quite so.
JFS Do you think that John 17 carries us beyond the thought of association?
JT I think it does. I think we should see that, too.
JC-S I think it is an important distinction. Those verses have been confused somewhat in placing them on that footing.
MB Are verse 5 and verse 24 parallel with Proverbs 8, what is set up from eternity?
JT Proverbs 8 treats of wisdom. We begin in Proverbs 8 with the thought of wisdom — wisdom is in mind. If we look at the passage for a moment we shall see: “The Lord possessed me in the beginning [p. 53] of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was” (verses 22, 23). The original words here are not great enough to cover the Person of Christ in this setting.
“I was set up”; ‘anointed’ is the word. It is the same as in Psalm 2: 6, you will notice. “From the beginning, or ever the earth was”; it is an official thought, and we have a word in this passage, in verse 25, “Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth”. “Brought forth” is not an expression great enough to cover the Person of Christ in the Deity. The enemy has used that to rob Him of His glory, the glory of Deity, as suggesting that He is brought forth. The truth is that it is wisdom that is in mind; it comes into evidence as God begins to operate; wisdom comes into evidence. “Jehovah” here is really Christ Himself.
ESW Is this great dignity of beholding Him peculiar to the church?
JT Well, to the persons who form it, I should say. It comes in after the Lord says in verse 19, “And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth”. Sanctification here alludes to His personal place in glory as answering to the divine thought for man, so that we should reach it now. So that verse 24 would have in mind, I think, those who are of the assembly, those who form it.
Rem Would you mind saying a little more about “the glory which thou hast given me”?
JT We have in verse 22 “the glory which thou gavest me I have given them”, and in verse 24, “I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory”. Verse 22 would seem to be the glory of sonship. We share in that, but then in verse 24 there is an additional glory. We are not said to share it but to behold it, but it is conferred glory in both [p. 54] cases.
SF So in verse 5 there is no thought of what we have been given; it is what He possessed eternally.
JT That is what I thought. It is the glory that He had as belonging to the Deity; it is not shared by us nor do we even behold it.
JSD Does the thought of glory in verse 5 involve the display of something and the existence of an intelligence capable of apprehending that?
JT Well, it is quite obvious that it is so. The glory is the shining out of what the Person is, so these glories involve some display of what enters into the particular position indicated, and if it be a question of our participating in the glory as in verse 22, it involves what our brother says, that we have intelligence as to what it means. Then if it be a question of beholding it, the same would apply. We are supposed to have intelligence as to it to behold it. I think we have been prepared here in this chapter, for the most exalted relations and affections, touching on the very Absolute itself. The link is the Lord Jesus personally.
EESL Do you think the apprehension of the purpose of the Lord Jesus Christ to have His people in glory would lift them out of all that is low and mean and prepare them for elevation?
JT That is right. “I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth”. We should be exalted in mind to the full place man has in the counsels of God, that is, what Christ is at the present moment. He sets out the full divine thought.
PL So that His supremacy and activity in this realm of glory so varied and blest is to assure dignity and elevation and suitability to His own in the testimony of God here, and above all in view of the service of God upward.
JT Quite so. You feel you have gone out of the world altogether in mind and affection (not in a corporeal sense) in this wonderful chapter. We have [p. 55] been brought into such an array of glory, the chapter is full of it, even linking on with the glory of Deity in the Absolute. You feel that you come to finality here in mind and affection.
FW In verse 22 the glory of sonship is communicable; and in verse 5 it is the glory of Deity in which we have no part. It touches the Inscrutable. Would you say what is the characteristic of the glory in verse 24, which is to be beheld?
JT Well, it is to be in keeping with the statement of the Lord having pre-eminence in all things. In all things He must have the pre-eminence. So in Psalm 45, “therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows”. It seems to embrace that feature of truth, something that belongs to Himself, and yet of a kind that we participate in, but belonging to Himself in an exalted and personal way, such, for instance, as sonship. We do not share it as He shares it. Sonship in Christ is peculiar to Himself, and yet what we are brought into is of that kind. In all these things the Spirit of truth will glorify Christ (John 16: 14). Chapter 16 always contemplates Christ as glorified. He is never brought down to our level; He is glorified, and yet we are, in some measure, brought into what He has, though we are always under limitations. The more we love the Lord, the more we make room for His pre-eminence.
MB The sense of that produces worship.
JT Quite so.