DIVINE SYSTEM IN EXODUS (5)
[p. 232] DIVINE SYSTEM IN EXODUS (5)
Exodus 19: 1 - 6; Exodus 20: 1 - 6; Exodus 24: 9 - 11
JT So far in our subject we have reached the household, and the thought of the household in Israel entering into the passover, which involved “the beginning of months”. Israel had entered on what we might call another era of things referring directly to themselves, in which they were regarded by God in their households, and were basically set up by means of a constitution suited to their new place. We saw them in chapter 13 on their way out of Egypt in a systematic way, as it says in Numbers 33: 3: “The children of Israel went out with a high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians”. They went out in order, “arrayed”, as the note says — “five in a rank”. They were militarily arranged, and were guided by God, too, in the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire; so that they were actually on their way, being taught how to walk. Much followed — the crossing of the Red Sea and all that it involved — and now we see them in chapter 19 before the mountain of God where they take their place as a nation. It is now a question of a nation. The mind of God is unfolding itself and they have their national status. The next passage read, in chapter 20, contemplates the national order of things under legislation, or law, to govern them. Then at the end of that chapter there is a system of drawing near to God in an altar — an altar of earth and an altar of stone — and following immediately on that, laws of wisdom entering into their national existence, into their neighbourly and social relations. Every exigency is taken account of in the details of instruction or law such as no other nation ever had.
The last passage read shows how they have been elevated into relations with God above in His own sphere. The system in its elements has increased, for [p. 233] added to Moses and Aaron we have Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel. God is calling them up and they go up and see the God of Israel; that is, they are there in holy liberty. It is thought that in these three verses in chapter 24 we have reached the end we had in mind — the divine system is operating and God has secured His end in it in having His people with Himself. They are not only brought to Him in the wilderness, but above in His own sphere, where He is seen in His glory and where they have, you might say, social liberty before Him, the liberty of love, eating and drinking. They are called nobles. It is thought that this final setting would leave with us the impression of what God is in His love; taking us out of this world and setting us up in liberty with Himself and with one another, and yet provided for in His system. They see Him, it says: “and they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness. And on the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: they saw God, and ate and drank”, Exodus 24: 10, 11.
AEH Have you any thought as to why such a glorious climax should be reached before the instruction or the pattern is given in regard to the tent and the tabernacle, and before the establishing of the tribes in their settings around it?
JT I think the suggestion is that God has now brought them to Himself, not under legal bondage, or what would provoke resentment of the flesh, as we see later. He has them in liberty and dignity. They are elders, a good many of them, and there is the priestly family; but before it is regulated and ordered, He has them just as He would wish to have them in themselves. What follows would point to what He could do with them and could make out of them for Himself, according to His [p. 234] own counsels.
JRH Would it be right to say that in chapter 24 they are, in spirit, brought in and planted in the mountain of His inheritance?
JT In spirit, yes. God had said in chapter 15 that He would bring them in. While they are not in the land literally, they are with God in His own sphere; that is, it is a spiritual situation. And now from chapter 25 to the end of Exodus, and in Leviticus and Numbers too, God is intimating what He can make out of them; what the material is capable of, and how it fits in with His own counsels of love.
LES Would there be some correspondence to Ephesians 1: 4, “that we should be holy and blameless before him in love”?
JT I think so. Ephesians is what answers to this because it is elevation — not, as you might say, the literal heavenly position. In verse 12 there is not a word said about what took place in the mountain, it is just that they, Moses and Joshua, went up: “And Jehovah said to Moses, Come up to me into the mountain, and be there”. But as to the people, the position is a spiritual one; the physical thought is left out. It is a question of what is reachable in the Spirit, “in spirit”, as was said. They have already reached finality, they were with God and they saw Him. He had already said, “I have... brought you to myself”; but now you have the thought of elevation, of His own place, His abode or sphere. Then these chapters which follow, from 25 to the end, and Leviticus and Numbers, all involve what God can make out of them so as to reach His own counsels of love, beyond anything that might be conceived.
AEH Do you think that as we come under the power of the gospel and come to know God, He would encourage our hearts by bringing us in spirit to the climax of His greatest thoughts? Then that would help us to enter into the more onerous work [p. 235] in learning how to be together down here and how to fit into the Numbers and Leviticus setting.
JT Yes; our greatness is in mind. God would impress them with Himself and what was under His feet. He was going to come down and walk with them on the sands and He wants them to see, in liberty, what He is up there; “they saw the God of Israel”; and they are called nobles. They are without restraint, as it were. Now these succeeding chapters are to show what God can bring about according to His own formative actions, influence, principles and workmanship; how He can bring about what was in His heart from all eternity. It is a question of the material which He has in His hand. We are told in the prophets that He made the earth out of nothing; but He is not going to make the new world out of nothing. There is material that love can use, out of which love can construct and form what will be for His own satisfaction.
AEH Young brothers in the morning meeting can apparently touch very exalted heights in speaking to the Father and to God; but this is something more in the way of weight and substantial formation.
JT We are introduced into the world above. We have that hymn, “Lord of the worlds above”; well, there are there wonderful regions and formations of glory and enjoyment. Jehovah, of course, is there; that is in the verses read: “They saw God, and ate and drank”; “there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness”. These are unknown things, it is a scene above — worlds above! Well now, Moses goes into that and he goes in alone. Joshua is his attendant, who here would not be more than auxiliary, not entering into the antitype. The idea is that the mediator goes up alone. In the antitype Christ has gone up, and the worlds above [p. 236] are under Him; He has gone beyond all principality and power. Not only so, but He has gone beyond all the heavens.
SMcC You have been referring to the greatness of Moses in Egypt; and it would seem as if in this new environment God would enhance the glory of the Mediator in a peculiar way before our souls.
JT I thought that. He remained up there for forty days; he is said to have literally gone up into the mount: “Jehovah said to Moses, Come up to me into the mountain, and be there” (verse 12); and in verse 15, “Moses went up to the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain. And the glory of Jehovah abode on mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days; and on the seventh day he called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. And the appearance of the glory of Jehovah was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain, before the eyes of the children of Israel. And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain. And Moses was on the mountain forty days and forty nights”. We have to notice the frequency of the word “mountain”, whereas the earlier part of the chapter is more moral elevation, the physical mountain is not stressed at all. Even in the first verse He said to Moses, “Go up to Jehovah, thou and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship afar off”. He does not say, Go up the mountain; it is the moral side. Elevation in that sense is open to us, of course only by the Spirit. We are enabled to go there, and I think that enters into the service of God; but Christ has gone there literally, or physically. He is there corporeally and He has gone beyond all the heavens; but He is not forgetting the system down here, because it is from that point He sends the gifts, according to [p. 237] Ephesians 4.
AHP Does that indicate that what comes out in chapter 25 and onward is to take its character from what we see here — what God is above?
JT What He is above, and from Moses being there. The thing is shown to him on the principle of pattern. So that what goes on up there beyond our reach, the immensity of the sphere, is suggestive of the sphere into which Christ has gone. Paul was caught up to the third heaven — that contemplates creational limitations; but the heavens contemplate Deity in Christ. A divine Person has gone up, and He has liberty there beyond anything that a creature could conceive save in the Spirit’s power. Nevertheless, He is operating there and from there in relation to what is down here, to effect everything here that God has had in His mind. Paul says that he went into paradise, he was caught up into paradise. There are two prepositions in 2 Corinthians 12, as no doubt many of us have noticed: “to” the third heaven, implying ‘as far as’; and “into” paradise, meaning that he went in. He said, “I... heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter”. Now Moses here is suggestive of that, only he is merely a type of Christ; Christ has gone beyond all the heavens; He is with God. He has “sat down at the right hand of God”, and He is operating from there; not simply from created conditions but from uncreated conditions. That is beyond the heavens. The heavens are the limit of created conditions, but beyond them is the uncreated; it is the realm of God.
SMcC What difference do you see between “above all heavens”, and what we have in Hebrews 9: 24, where He is said to have entered “into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us”?
JT “Heaven itself” would be where God is in relation to the creation. The heavens, however they may be designated, are created: “In the beginning [p. 238] God created the heavens and the earth”. They are all included in that. Therefore Christ, in His official capacity, as I understand, entered into those conditions: “whom heaven indeed must receive till the times of the restoring of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began”. But personally He goes beyond that. Being a divine Person He can go beyond that, so that Hebrews also says in chapter 7: 26, “For such a high priest became us, holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and become higher than the heavens”. It is important to keep it in mind that heaven in itself is not the dwelling place of God; He is beyond all the heavens. Christ has become higher than the heavens.
SMcC Verse 14 of Hebrews 4 says, He “has passed through the heavens”.
APT Referring to what you quoted in Ephesians 4, that He has “ascended up on high”, is that connected with Psalm 68: 18? I was wondering what the final clause, “and even for the rebellious, for the dwelling there of Jah Elohim”, refers to.
JT Ephesians 4 alludes to that, but we get the thought of the psalm enlarged in Paul’s words in verses 7 to 10. The addition there that Paul’s ministry brings out is noteworthy — the uncreated position into which Christ has gone, and has a right to go, in His own Person, whence He is operating in the system down here. He has “ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things; and he has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers”, etc.; it is the system operating down here from that exaltation.
APT The gifts would be for the continuation of the system, and to bring the saints to the completion of the mind of God for [p. 239] them.
JT And the system is operating down here from that exalted point. It is not simply what Psalm 68 says, but what Paul says, as to Christ having gone down to the lower parts of the earth; and then he says, “He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens”; above them.
JRH I suppose Paul used the scripture in the Psalms which applies to Israel, and applies it to the assembly in Ephesians 4.
JT That is it, to bring out what God has to dwell in down here, but it is effected from above, from that exaltation. The gifts allude to the system; they are operating to bring about this abode of God, as it says in verse 16, “from whom the whole body, fitted together, and connected by every joint of supply, according to the working in its measure of each one part, works for itself the increase of the body to its self-building up in love”. That is what is going on. It is a wonderful thought, “its self-building up in love”; but the system in operation is aiding, in that it is “for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”.
APT In this scripture there is an allusion to ‘system’ (verse 14).
JT Yes; it is the only place we get it — “systematised error”. There is a lot of that around.
LES Would you say another word as to paradise and what Paul heard there? The footnote says, ‘The things said... were not suited to this lower world and our mortal condition’.
JT It is wonderful that one of us — for it was our apostle, Paul — should have had such an experience. It does not say he was caught up as an apostle; he was caught up as “a man in Christ”, and he heard these things. Surely, as Mary kept the pound of ointment, Paul had kept this knowledge for fourteen years until he knew it would be effective; it would humble the Corinthians in their partisan [p. 240] conditions. So that the brethren will understand that what we have been speaking of is no diversion from our subject; this last passage read in Exodus 24 is the culmination of it, really. Even now we are connected with what is above; but Christ — that is, our Mediator — has gone beyond all that, He has gone beyond all the heavens. But not only is He our Mediator, He is God Himself, the Son of God; nevertheless He is connected up there with priesthood, with the official working of it down here, not only in Hebrews but also in Ephesians in giving the gifts.
AEH Are you free when addressing the Lord in a marital atmosphere in the assembly service, to speak to Him of His deity?
JT Well, I do not see why we should not, except that there may be a danger of bringing God in too soon in the service, the brethren perhaps not being able to follow your thought. But Christ’s deity should be in view in the marital relation. Why should it not be in view? It enhances what He is to the assembly, that this great Person is Head of the assembly.
JRH Is that not seen in Psalm 45, where so much of the marital relation is in view? The deity of Christ comes in there in verses 6 and 7.
JT Quite so; the word “God” is used. You see how His deity is introduced, and then the Spirit of God passes on to His humanity: “God, thy God”.
JRH Would verse 11 of the psalm enter into it?
JT It is the same thing, “thy Lord”; He is a divine Person, God. Why should the assembly not have Him in mind as a divine Person?
LES Would Isaiah 62: 4, 5 fit in with this too, where it says, “But thou shalt be called, My delight is in her, and thy land, Married; for Jehovah delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, shall thy sons [p. 241] marry thee; and with the joy of the bridegroom over the bride, shall thy God rejoice over thee”?
JT Yes. The marital thought runs through the Old Testament, beginning in Genesis 2. Ezekiel 16 enlarges on it, how the Lord Jehovah finds Israel in the wilderness and how He beautifies her and she becomes His. The matter of espousals is established. And so the marital thought is becoming to Christ’s deity, entering into His marital relations with the assembly. Why should it not be? Why should we not honour Him because of all His greatness? Only there would be a tendency to confusion unless the brethren were careful not to bring God in too soon, that is, God as God and as the Father, which belongs more to the second part of our service, involving the parental side.
SMcC There would be holy concern as to the order of the economy, that we might be preserved in assembly service: “To us there is one God, the Father”.
JT That helps. It would seem that the order of the economy is what should govern us in assembly service; and so the use of 181:1 (’Glory Lord is Thine for ever, ...Wonderful the Godhead glory Shining, Saviour, in Thy face!’), as we were noticing yesterday, may be a little confusing to brethren generally, as failing to see that while deity is properly applied to Christ in certain connections, yet in the passage to which you allude in 1 Corinthians 8 it states that “to us there is one God, the Father”. God is presented as the Father in the economy. The passage goes on, “and one Lord, Jesus Christ”; that is, the economy involves the mediatorial state of things which I think should govern our service Godward. But then, hymn 181, certainly ought to be usable amongst the brethren in assembly service, and all such hymns or scriptures.
Having touched on this exalted part of our subject, we should come back to Exodus 19 to see how [p. 242] the truth progressed in the mind of the Spirit in the writing of the book. After the passage of the Red Sea, we have the service of God introduced in chapter 15 with the word, “Then”. “Then sang Moses and the children of Israel” (verse 1). As the adverb of time is introduced it shows that time has a great deal to do with the service of God; it is governed by time. So today in the assembly service, in touching the lordship of Christ, the headship of Christ, and the assembly’s part with Him, there is a time for all that. Ecclesiastes says there is a time for everything, so this word “then” alludes to time — it is a time for song. It is the first song we have in the Scriptures, and time has a great place in it. So that we should always recognise time in the service of God — what a particular time requires. Of course I am not speaking of eternal conditions, but of the present provisional period.
APT Would the time of assembling together be important in relation to the system — to be on time?
JT Well, that is how Luke speaks of it. He says that “when the hour was come” the Lord sat down with the disciples. He took His place. Is that what you mean?
APT Yes. It is an important matter, one feels it oneself, the possibility of holding time loosely as we come to the service of God. We would not do it in relation to human appointments; why should we be loose in divine appointments?
JT The Lord appeared to the women after His resurrection as they were on an errand, sent by the angel to tell the disciples that they should go into Galilee and there see Him. That would be an appointment: “there shall ye see him”. Not the Lord saying, I will see them, as in John; but Matthew quotes the angel as saying, “Go quickly and say to his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and behold, he goes before you into Galilee, there shall [p. 243] ye see him. Behold, I have told you”. And the Lord confirms that in verse 10; but it says, “And as they went to bring his disciples word, behold also, Jesus met them, saying, Hail! And they coming up took him by the feet, and did him homage”. This was not a right act on their part, it was an interruption to their errand; but they did not remain in that attitude, they went and carried the message to the apostles. That was a great appointment, and the disciples were doubtless there where He expected them. He surely kept His side of the matter.
Ques Are you referring to this time matter as productive of movement?
JT The Lord is making use of time, God is making use of time; He made time, and He uses it Himself first; the first day was used by God. So in the New Testament we find that time has been used. We have already alluded to the Lord sitting down at the time of the Passover; He was there when the hour was come. Then in Acts 2 it says, “And when the day of Pentecost was now accomplishing” — or running its course of fulfilment as a feast — “there came suddenly a sound out of heaven”. It was time for it and the Spirit came in that way. So it is that the first day of the week involves time; Paul was in Troas on that day, and Luke was there, and he says, “We being assembled to break bread”; it was that day and that involves time too.
WL Would you say, that the matter of time in the beginning of Exodus 15 was resultant on certain things having been arrived at in the end of chapter 14? It says there that “the people feared Jehovah, and believed in Jehovah, and in Moses his bondman”.
JT Quite so; it is “Then sang Moses”. So that we might notice in this passage how the service of God begins in Scripture; the time had come for it. Then we proceed in the history to chapter 19. Much intervenes, but chapter 19: 1 says, “In the third month after the [p. 249] departure of the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai”. “Into the wilderness” — it is the position they are in, but it is “before the mountain”, the position, under divine ordering, for listening to God in His place of authority. Chapter 19 tells us what He said; He is dealing with them now as a nation, and He says in verse 6, “Ye shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation”. That is what is in His mind. It is to be a holy nation, but a nation that is to be governed by laws, ordinances and statutes; showing that it is to have all the advantages you would look for in any nation, with the addition of holiness as being God’s nation. So that now instead of a household being in type before us, it is a nation — a national idea.
HGH What is the suggestion behind “a kingdom of priests”?
JT It is the word “priests” added to the idea of the kingdom, implying intelligence. “The priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and at his mouth they seek the law; for he is the messenger of Jehovah of hosts”; that is what is stated in Malachi 2. We have not yet the actual inauguration of the priesthood; here there is only a suggestion of it; but prior to its inauguration we have the love of the Hebrew servant in chapter 21. He has love Godward — perpendicularly — and love horizontally, toward his wife; and love toward his children. That is, God is saying, Love must have full scope: to come up to Me and to go out to the wife and down to the children. Then after chapter 21 we go on with laws and ordinances till we come to chapter 24 of which we have been speaking; and then in chapter 28 we have the Priest. I believe the love of the Hebrew servant underlies Aaron’s appointment; it is one who can say, “I love”: “I love my master, my wife, and my children”. It is a present love, not that I have loved; it is a present, active love in all its phases.
SMcC Why do you say it underlies Aaron’s appointment?
JT Because of the place that Aaron has henceforth in Exodus. He is the brother. He is the brother from the beginning, when he went to the mount of God to meet Moses, which made him glad in his heart. He becomes a servant, as it were, to his brother, for Moses is as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron is ready to take the place of Moses’ spokesman. So that it is established in regard to Aaron that it is a matter of love. All this that we have been speaking of as to elevation and the law comes in from chapter 20 to chapter 24. Then in chapter 28 we have the word of Jehovah to Moses saying, “And thou shalt take thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may serve me as priest — Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron’s sons”. Aaron loves his sons, according to the type of the Hebrew servant. It is a matter of spiritual inference that I have liberty to refer to the idea of love in Aaron; he is one characterised by it; and the history running through to chapter 28 depicts him as valuable to Moses under the direct hand of God. So now the word is, “Take thee Aaron thy brother”. He is to be the custodian of the law and of all the divine service; he is to take care of everything for God and for the people too, and it is a question of love; he is trustworthy, for love never fails.
SMcC Looking at Christ as the antitype of Moses and Aaron in this section, are we to view Him in Moses as having His own special rights — able to go where we cannot go; but in Aaron as having associates, that we have a link with Him?
JT Yes; in Aaron He is on our side. That is what I understand. And therefore it is wise, I think,
[p. 246] to keep the economy in view in the ordering of the service of God; first as engaged with the Lord in the Supper, the mediatorial relation to Him, and the assembly’s relation to Him, in which Psalm 45 helps us, and also the Song of Songs; and then His deity, enabling Him to take us on, to take on the sons — for it is God who is leading many sons to glory. It is God who is doing it: “For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings”, Hebrews 2: 10. He is there on our side, but still He is a divine Person. The priesthood is pursued in Hebrews 7 and 8; in chapter 7 He has gone beyond all the heavens, and in chapter 8 He has set Himself down at the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens. He does that, He has title to do it, and we must not forget that; but in all He is on our side. So that He is not ashamed to call us brethren, saying, “I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”, Hebrews 2: 12. I think we are safe in pursuing the service in relation to the economy.
SMcC I think that is important. Hence when God is referred to we might not know or might not be able to distinguish what Person is before us if we do not have the economy in view.
JT Well, we do not want to imply that the brethren are not intelligent. Psalm 45 suggests that Christ might be addressed as God Himself, but that He is also addressed as having a God. They are both in the same psalm and the psalmist knows what he is saying. “Incline thine ear”, in verse 10, means that the persons who are using the psalm ought to be able to do that. We should read our hymn books intelligently and know what hymn to give out.
LES Do you think 1 Peter would help as to this matter? He says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” and then, referring to the revelation of Jesus Christ, “whom, having not seen, ye love”; and then following that he refers to the holy priesthood and the royal priesthood.
JT That brings us back to what our brother just now suggested. Why is Israel said to be a kingdom of priests? I think that would mean that there would be at all times among the brethren a kingdom of priests — that we are ourselves a kingdom. We have that in Revelation 1: He has “made us a kingdom” — we have power to rule. We know rule, but we also have power to rule. Authority is vested in the brethren, and priesthood is added to that. That makes us holy ourselves and in our words, what is on our lips — the priest’s lips keep knowledge.
FM How far would association with Christ take us?
JT Well, we were just speaking about that in Hebrews 2, where He sings in our midst. He is not ashamed to call us brethren. Why is He not ashamed? Because we are of Him: “For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren”. We are of the same order, so that we are fit to be associated with Him. And then as regards this kingdom of priests, it is authority vested in us. So that a brother stands up in assembly, and he is in dignity; he has authority; he speaks as the oracles of God, but then he speaks intelligently too. The priest’s lips keep knowledge, and they seek the law at his mouth. We may need a word just now on the law governing the assembly as in service, and it is important to take account of it, because we are likely to be diverted from the principles governing the service.
APT Would that be indicated in the Lord’s words to Mary, “Go to my brethren and say to them” — that they might be on the up line in [p. 248] the service?
JT They were to be instructed by the message. She did not teach the brethren, but still neither did she tell the message verbatim. She said “that she had seen the Lord, and that he had said these things to her”. They would probably be her own words to a large extent.
APT Do you think a word of ministry is always needed at the Lord’s supper?
JT So far as I have observed it is needed and usually helps. It is a priestly matter, and the Spirit would help, stimulating the assembly.
Ques What do the eagles’ wings represent in Exodus 19? God says, “I have borne you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself”.
JT They are a symbol used alluding to the characteristics of the eagle. In alluding to the “wings”, God is thinking of what an eagle would do for its young. The book of Deuteronomy tells us in chapter 32: 11 how an eagle acts with its young, and God condescends to use that symbol to show how careful He is with us; not only is it the power but also the care of the eagle. “I have borne you on eagles’ wings” — they are powerful — but Jehovah adds, “and brought you to myself”. He has brought them to Himself; but now the mountain is involved.
FC He calls to Moses out of the mountain. Does this involve the kind of economy?
JT In chapter 3 you will remember Moses led the flock to the mountain of God. The Spirit of God tells us in regard to Abraham, “On the mount of Jehovah will be provided”. Genesis 22: 14. Well now, the people here are moving on instinct. Exodus 17: 1 says, “And all the assembly of the children of Israel journeyed... at the command of Jehovah”; they are moving under His commandment. It does not say in chapter 19 that they are moving under that commandment, but the thought is carried through. So it is said, “In the third month after the departure of the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai: they departed from Rephidim, and came into the wilderness of Sinai, and encamped in the wilderness; and Israel encamped there before the mountain”. It is as if they were saying, Jehovah, we are here; as if they were where He would have them. That is the idea. So they are under orders, they are moving under divine orders and God takes up this attitude in the mountain; and it says, “Moses went up to God, and Jehovah called to him out of the mountain”, meaning that the people had come to the place where God intended them to come, because He wanted them there. He did not say this on the banks of the Red Sea; it is in His own place — the mountain. The mountain refers to the resources of God; if He is going to furnish us as a nation, He will draw on His resources so that we shall be fully equipped for His service. Already they were wealthy themselves, because it says they came out of Egypt with great wealth, and now they are brought to His wealth. That is what the mountain symbolizes — His wealth, His resources.
JRH You refer to the national existence, — “a holy nation”. How is that idea carried out today in the assembly?
JT 1 Peter 2: 9 refers to it; we are said to be that. It is the idea of a nation. The idea arises from the position in Shinar, God supporting the nations, having in mind to keep them in reserve for the gospel. Each nation has its own particular characteristics; we were speaking of that, and of the importance of history in regard to the gospel — of knowing to whom you are preaching. The history goes back to Shinar. The several nations have to be understood: the Babylonians were so-and-so, and the Egyptians were so-and-so; you have to keep in mind their history. But God is going to have a [p. 250] nation, a nation of His own, different from all the others. It is designated here in Exodus 19 as “a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation”. When God assigned the nations their inheritance, He set their bounds according to the number of children of Israel, for “Jacob the lot of his inheritance”, Deuteronomy 32: 8, 9.
AEH The word Peter adds to it is, “That ye might set forth the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness to his wonderful light”. That is connected with the idea of a holy nation.
JT Yes. The idea of a nation is greatly stressed now. Of course it has been in Shinar, but it is particularly stressed now in the four monarchies of which Scripture makes so much.
FM “A holy nation” — would that be connected with the royal priesthood, the Melchisedec order of things?
JT Quite so. In the Melchisedec priesthood the deity of Christ is particularly contemplated. Aaron is the type of the holy priesthood: Aaron is a type of Christ in His present priesthood. Melchisedec covers the deity of Christ — His Person. How great a Person He is! But Hebrews enlarges on priesthood according to what was typified in Aaron; hence the great stress on holiness.
FM Can we contemplate anything further than priesthood in the Lord’s day morning meeting?
JT Priesthood is an office; it contemplates a condition in which we are down here. I do not think it will be needed in eternity. It is a protection — that is, against ignorance, unholiness and the flesh generally. It is seraphic in character, maintaining what is suitable for the presence of God.
SMcC In what part of the assembly service do you view the Lord in His functions as Minister of the sanctuary, as before us in this particular glory?
JT I would connect it with what follows [p. 251] our addressing Him as Lord. We view Him henceforth on our side in conducting the service. The allusion in Hebrews 8: 2 is to Aaron: “minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man”. Peter had it in mind when he said to the Lord, “Thou art the holy one of God” (John 6: 69); we apprehend Him as “the holy one of God”. Indeed, Aaron is alluded to in Scripture as God’s holy one. The title “Son” remarkably covers the Lord’s position in office as our Priest.
SMcC In the service of God in the assembly, what distinction is there between the Lord’s leading on the lines of His headship, and His influence as Minister of the sanctuary?
JT Headship is towards us. It is how He affects us, our intelligence, our spiritual understanding being involved, not only through words, but through spiritual influence. He is Head of the assembly, as we see in Colossians. The Minister of the sanctuary is God ward; He is God’s Minister for everything that God is seeking in the service. That is how I look at it. There is what is towards God, and what is influencing us in a subtle way inwardly, so that we move in relation to Him according to His mind.
Ques Would verses 5 and 6 of chapter 19 be normal Christianity? “If ye will hearken to my voice indeed and keep my covenant, then shall ye be my own possession out of all the peoples — for all the earth is mine — and ye shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation”. I was thinking of Balaam’s prophecy, “Lo, it is a people that shall dwell alone and shall not be reckoned among the nations”, Numbers 23: 9.
JT I think so. We are taken out of the nations. Peter, as quoted by James, says at the meeting in Jerusalem that “God... visited to take out of the nations a people for his name”, Acts 15: 14. While [p. 252] he does not call us a nation in that passage, the idea is there, for he calls us “a people”; we are to be separate — set up in relation to God, a holy nation. Peter follows that up in his first epistle.
JRH In Matthew 21: 43 the Lord in speaking to the elders of Israel says, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation producing the fruits of it”. Is the assembly in view there?
JT Yes. There the Spirit of God uses the word “nation”; the nation would bring forth the fruits of the kingdom which was taken away from the Jews. So, clearly, it would be what Paul says, “Lo, we turn to the nations”. God works out His thoughts in a separate people, a people taken out from among them.
Ques Would Deuteronomy 14: 2 help? “Thee hath Jehovah chosen for a people of possession unto himself, out of all the peoples that are upon the face of the earth”.
JT Just so. The Scriptures have a great deal to say about that, and I thought it might be impressed upon us. So at this point it is not a question of the households of the saints, but of the saints viewed as a nation, viewed from the mountain, the place of resource; and of God calling them a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. He is telling them how near they are to be. Later He imposes restrictions, evidently that they might value nearness. But in the early part of this chapter He is telling them that this is His mind for them, that they are going to be near to Him in holiness as a kingdom of priests.
WL Would this idea of a nation be the public setting as in the wilderness?
JT The idea is that it would be intelligible to all nations. People know something about nationhood; it has acquired a place in the world. Egypt, for instance, took it on. God is setting out the [p. 253] national idea in His own people, and we are to understand what it is and the principles that He has set out to govern it. All that we have been saying is a part of the truth that was in mind in these meetings; and then the heavenly associations that belong to it: how we are set up in relation to one another and have access to what is above. And then God is saying, I am going to work out great things in you; My counsels are going to be worked out. That is what the following chapters imply.
SMcC So that the types from chapter 25 onward involve the knowledge of Christ as He is known above. We feel we are very deficient in that.
JT We are given to understand we are a heavenly people. The sound (Acts 2) has come out of heaven and the light has come out of heaven; the truth, through the ministry of the apostles, including Paul, has come out. We are on heavenly ground and we are being formed according to that, and it should be constantly in our minds. We have in Ephesians that God has ordained certain good works that we should walk in them; He has ordained them, He has got them, they are ready for us, as it were.
JRH Has chapter 20 in view the supremacy of God in the affections of His people?
JT I think that is implied in the stand that He takes. The chapter begins: “And God spoke all these words, saying, I am Jehovah thy God, who have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thyself any graven image, or any form of what is in the heavens above, or what is in the earth beneath, or what is in the waters under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them; for I, Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and to the [p. 254] fourth generation of them that hate me, and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments”. That is, He has lovers, and He is at liberty now to speak to them in this way. He knows His people will be glad to hear His words and be ready to carry out His behests.
AEH Nations are built up, I suppose, on the idea of rallying to certain ideals and seeing them through. This is a holy nation, and it has ideals to which we are rallied and which are to be carried through. They are the showing forth in a moral way of what God is. But before that can be really carried out it has to be taken in. Is that what this means, do you think?
JT That is so. Take the American Commonwealth: Washington and others had ideals that were carried through; so that the States came together forming a nation, and wrote its constitution. The one idea was there to be carried through, but the adjuncts were there just to cause the thing to be carried through. If a European came in he would be given to understand that in due course he would become a citizen. I am not suggesting that anyone take citizenship, I am speaking illustratively. For this he has to know how to read the constitution and to subscribe to it, and many other things; it is the primary idea, and everything is to move in that connection. The whole system of the legislature and its execution is to carry these features through, and the person is given to understand that he is coming to a wonderful system here. So in Hebrews 12 we have come to the divine system: “Ye have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven; and to God, judge of all”. Why not subscribe to it and take advantage of all that belongs to it? But see to it that [p. 255] you are fitted, and know how to serve in it. Typically, these chapters are to bring in heavenly ideas; it was for Israel to come forward and carry them through, which in principle they did.
APT So that mercy is shown to us in this system. Is that right? We all need mercy.
JT And hence mount Zion, which represents sovereign mercy, is the first item mentioned in Hebrews 12. That chapter helps us as to this matter, because we read in Exodus 20 that God is standing on the mountain, which speaks of His resources which are infinite. The people are wealthy too; they did not come to Him in poverty; they came out of Egypt with great property. God says, I will use that, but I am also bringing in other things, unsearchable riches. God has these; they are all available to us and He is going to form us according to them. What our brother says in regard to ideals is good to keep in our minds, and then to see that we can work them out.
LES So Deuteronomy 33: 26 - 29 says, “There is none like unto the God of Jeshurun, Who rideth upon the heavens to thy help, And in his majesty, upon the clouds. Thy refuge is the God of old, And underneath are the eternal arms; And he shall drive out the enemy from before thee, And shall say, Destroy them! And Israel shall dwell in safety alone, The fountain of Jacob, in a land of corn and new wine; Also his heavens shall drop down dew. Happy art thou, Israel! Who is like unto thee, a people saved by Jehovah, The shield of thy help, And the sword of thine excellency? And thine enemies shall come cringing to thee; And thou shalt tread upon their high places”.
JT Very great and beautiful! So we can understand here how lovers of God would rejoice in all that. He speaks of thousands of those that love Him. God must have said that exultingly — lovers [p. 256] of God, available for the working out of all these thoughts. So at the end of this chapter we have two altars, one of earth and one of stone. God says, “In all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee”. Lovers of God would value that; wherever it is, they would come there. These altars would be connected with that. The first is of earth and the second is of stone. But in due time God will have His great altar in a magnificent system where not only the right material but skill is involved; the greatest skill, as seen in the following chapters, will be employed for the construction of the various things for the tabernacle.
AEH Would you say a word more about the altars of earth and of stone? With the altar of earth it is, “An altar of earth shalt thou make unto me”; but with the altar of stone it is, “If thou make me”.
JT I think the altar of earth imperative; we should not be Christians at all if we had not that. We must have an altar, meaning a place of sacrifice. But the altar of stone would be Christ risen, involving the saints as risen with Him.
AEH In the “if” I suppose it is a question as to whether we shall reach it.
JT The “if” does not mean that without the altar of stone we should not be recognised as Christians, but that we are not full-grown, that we have not entered on the heavenly side of the truth.
AEH We might be Roman Christians without being Colossian Christians.
JT That is right; we have to make allowance for that. It is encouraging how far God is ready to go with us. The man contemplated in Leviticus 5 has trespassed; typically he is a Christian in a low state, with very little spiritual wealth. Well, he is [p. 257] allowed to bring a handful of meal for a sin-offering. That is God’s readiness to meet a man who is sincere in his confession. He is no sham; he is sincere, but unintelligent.
JRH Would you say the man in Deuteronomy 26 goes on from the altar of earth to the altar of stone in worshipping Jehovah? I was thinking of the basket of firstfruits.
JT Quite so. The altar of earth alludes to manhood in Christ; whereas the altar of stone would be permanency, Christ in resurrection and in heaven. The man brings the basket of firstfruits, but the priest is there. He sets it down by the priest and makes his confession; but he is a priest himself as presented in verses 10 and 11; he carries on the service himself. He advances. It would take another meeting to go into that, bringing out in the book of Deuteronomy what God’s service is in the land. The chapter contemplates a man in the land: “When thou comest into the land that Jehovah thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and possessest it, and dwellest therein”, etc. The man puts the firstfruits in a basket and goes to the place that Jehovah had chosen to cause His Name to dwell there; and goes to the priest there and professes to Jehovah that he has come unto the land that Jehovah swore to give them. The priest takes the basket out of the man’s hand and sets it down before Jehovah — the priest is mentioned no more. But the man makes a statement to Jehovah covering briefly the history of the fathers, including the long and painful experiences in Egypt, but also the glorious deliverance from that country accorded to them by Jehovah, culminating in their being brought into Canaan, “a land flowing with milk and honey”. And now the firstfruits are set down before Jehovah, with the words, “And now, behold, I have brought the first of the fruits of the land, which thou, Jehovah, hast given me”. And then the man worships before Jehovah his God. It is Deuteronomy worship, that is, in the land, but in accord with what we have been saying as to Exodus 19 to 24.
Pages 259 - 504 — ‘Man as Presented in Christ and the Assembly’, Meetings in Great Britain, 1945. (Volume 166 - Old Series).