MAN AS PRESENTED IN CHRIST AND THE ASSEMBLY (5)
[p. 338] MAN AS PRESENTED IN CHRIST AND THE ASSEMBLY (5)
JT I was thinking of the idea of man, and I thought John’s gospel would be the feature that we might look into now. The truth as to man is introduced in John in the passages read. The subject of man is brought in early, as most of us know, in the Scriptures, but perhaps we have not observed that no other beings are specifically mentioned at the outset; that is, in the first chapter of Genesis. The mind is impressed with the fact that so much is made of man at such a late date, because evidently the greater part of Genesis 1 is late, relative to the first verse of the chapter: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. What follows throughout the chapter is comparatively recent, and it is surely a matter to strike the mind that it is so, that so much is made of man, not, indeed, in that chapter, but in view of all that follows. Verse 26 says that “God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion”. Surely God meant to impress us with the importance of this feature, and John takes the subject up in his own peculiar way, and tells us that in the Lord Jesus, the Word, was life and that the life was the light of men; and then tells us a little about the light. It is a great theme throughout John, and how man alone was in mind in the thought of the light. The Lord takes the matter up peculiarly in chapter 17 in His prayer, saying, “Those that thou gayest me I have kept”, and, “I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gayest me out of the world. Thine they were, and thou gayest them me; and they have kept thy word”. He had kept them; but I am thinking now of the fact that they [p. 339] were given — a special set of men — men viewed by the Lord in a peculiar way as given to Him by the Father. So the question is why the subject should be specialised in John, why that being — man — is given by the Father to the Lord Jesus. How he is regarded throughout Scripture of course is an immense thing; the Spirit of God is engaged with it, making all other beings, except the divine Persons, subservient. At such a time as the present, in which man is regarded so cheaply and used merely for the will of man himself, as aspiring and violent, we should be impressed that he is so introduced and treated of in John’s gospel, and we should learn what there is for us as to him in the abstract — for that is the way it has to be looked at; and then how the truth is worked out as to him. The Lord speaks in a prayerful sense to the Father and stresses the thought of man, that the Father has given certain men to Him.
AJG It says, “He does not indeed take hold of angels by the hand, but he takes hold of the seed of Abraham”, Hebrews 2: 16. Is that in line?
JT Quite so, I was thinking of that. That is, Why should it be the seed of Abraham? It is one of the points coming into Genesis that Abraham is signalised, and that seed was taken on.
Ques Are you stressing the thought of persons? Had you in mind the thought of race?
JT Yes, in the abstract sense.
Rem In contrast to all others in the creation.
JT Just so, especially having in mind the subject of creation in Genesis 1 after the first and second verses.
AM Which do you think would come first, life or light?
JT If we go by Genesis 1 light comes first, but John’s gospel makes life [p. 340] first.
AM Do you connect both with man?
JT Yes, in a sense, from the detail that we have. Of course we know God is light; that is a great point in John, but what we have in the chapter read is that it is in Christ; “in him was life”.
Ques Is there any special reason why the verse we commenced to read in John 17 follows on the verse as to the place which the Lord had as Man?
JT Yes. He says, “I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gayest me”; that is, the Lord comes to that point that the Father had given Him men.
Ques He is heir of all things, but He is given men to be usable by Him. Is that the thought?
JT Well, the idea of usability runs through from the first time it is mentioned that man is to have dominion, and the being is contemplated in a dual sense; that is, male and female. That must have a great place with us as to usability and what the Lord would have in mind as to the men the Father had given Him. It really is the issue abroad, and the question is whether it is obtaining amongst the brethren and whether what is obtaining amongst us will bear fruit, will be a testimony.
WC You used the expression, “a special set of men”; that was exclusive of Judas but inclusive of Peter. Is there anything in that as to what is happening in those who are apparently taken up? There were eleven and they had had that experience. A special sense of mercy would be found with them as retained by the Lord and definitely named as those given to Him.
JT Then administration was given to them; that is really the next point to come up, that administration is current; hence the use of the numeral twelve running right through and coming in in connection with the seed of Abraham. It is not a question of Adam, but of Abraham, of the seed.
[p. 341] Ques How does the term a chosen race link on with this?
JT It illustrates, I suppose, the idea of choice, which is a great matter with God. It is one of the things that affords the variation that love would look for, for the being is intended to love and to be loved. Hence a wide variation of terms and thoughts and usages is constantly introduced.
HH Why do you speak of administration in this connection?
JT Because it comes in in Peter. The question of the difference made as to men in this chapter was brought up, the difference made as to Judas. “None of them is lost”, the Lord says. Peter is not lost, he is saved, and he is saved to bring out the idea of administration.
Ques Are you thinking of the place of man in new creation?
JT I had rather the abstract thought in mind, because we have to learn things in the abstract. God treats of things abstractly and we learn from what He does, and the idea of new creation comes in somewhat late in the subject. The idea of man stands out, whether it is the new man or the old.
WM “The life was the light of men”. Is the thought that man as a creature is especially capable of appreciating the light that came out in the life of Jesus?
JT The thought is that that was God. Why did He not think of angels? They had been before man, but He does not mention them. “In him was life, and the life was the light of men”. Men are His ideal; that is, speaking abstractly. He is going to do great things with them and has done great things with them.
Ques Does the matter become clarified because Christ became [p. 342] Man?
JT Yes, and that idea is introduced on the sixth day: He says, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion...” and He made them, so that we feel we are now in the divine current, the current of God’s mind.
AMP Is that taken up in Psalm 8: “What is man, that thou art mindful of him?” Are our souls to enquire, why it is that God has shown such deep interest in mankind?
JT It fits in with the book of Psalms. The saints of God think. There is very little real thinking and enquiring; the book of Psalms provides what is needed in that sense, and hence, “What is man?”
Ques Would the thought be finalised in Revelation 21: “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men”?
JT Yes, that is where it is. It had been with Israel, but not now; it is with men.
Ques Does not being made in the image and likeness of God give them a place of great distinction in the mind of God?
JT Yes. God has in mind that He is to be represented in His creature. The first thing is that he is God’s image; then secondly he is to be like God.
AJG Does the fact that God has man in mind as His representative, a creature who is inferior creatorially to angels, imply that He has in mind that the administration should be sympathetic?
JT I think so. The thought of image and likeness shows that the relation is to be very intimate. God has reserves and that is what brings out the great subject of the counsels of God and the area He has to work in. The race is to be very great, but God has reserves in it because He has Another to come. Adam was a figure of Him that was to come, that was really the Christ.
[p. 343] Rem So the life was really in a man according to John 1; “in him was life”; that is, in Christ as Man.
JT Quite so.
HH That these men were given to the Lord Jesus puts them on a very high level.
JT It is the idea of selection — another great thought in God’s realm. What material He has! The thought now is whether we are in it, whether we are in what is current, for God has taken up things now externally in view of the terrible devastation and destruction, to bring out something, not exactly something new, for the truth was always the truth. Now are we in this thing, what God can do and is doing?
AM Do you link the word apprehension with that, involving our taking hold of a thing? The darkness apprehended it not, but that implied that certain ones did apprehend.
JT Quite so.
Ques Why does it immediately say, “There was a man sent from God, his name John”? Have you the stress on manhood there, and selection too?
JT I think that is the idea, also we have a man of the Pharisees (chapter 3) — he too is available. God is stressing the thought. He has one man in John the baptist, a man in Nicodemus, and many others like that; but in John we are on special ground, the ground of selection, and the Lord says, “I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gayest me”. They are worthy, for the idea of manifestation is that they are worthy of what God can display in them.
Rem What is received by them and may shine forth from them.
JT Just so.
[p. 344] WC It comes out in the man in John 9 that the works of God might be manifested.
JT Yes, the Lord says, “Neither hath this man sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God should be manifested in him”. He was a special case; you could not provide another such. That gives a good clue to what we are speaking of; the place that man has in the gospel gives a clue to what is in the Lord’s mind, the usableness of persons seen in one who knew the Lord or one who had not known Him. You get the thought in 1 John 4 — “we have known and believed”.
Ques Is there a link in Ephesians 4; “until we all arrive at... the full grown man”?
JT I think that; that flows out from the gifts — “received gifts in Man” (Psalm 68:18), which is another important thought. In Ephesians He has ascended above all the heavens and given gifts to men, but it is in relation to the building up of the saints “until we all arrive... at the full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”. It is to bring out the truth of the assembly, what God has in an operational sense in the assembly.
Ques Was the realisation of God’s thought celebrated by the angels in Luke 2, “good pleasure in men”?
JT Very good — in keeping with Luke.
Ques Does what we have in chapter 10, following on what you said as to chapter 9, bring out that thought as to the sheep?
JT The subject beginning in chapter 9 is followed up to chapter 12. It is a great theme in John. It is a section in John that brings out much, and I suppose Mary of Bethany would be the theme in the mind of the Lord; what there was there. Judas is brought in there; the devil would spoil the matter if he could, but the position is maintained in Mary.
[p. 345] Ques The apostle says in 1 Corinthians 6, “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?” and that “we shall judge angels”. Is that the thought?
JT That is what the saints are to be, for the administrative idea runs right through.
HFN Would what the apostle says in Colossians bear on it: “Admonishing every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, to the end that we may present every man perfect in Christ”?
JT That is a good scripture to help us in what we are saying; “to present every man perfect in Christ”. It would help us as to Paul’s work, the administration that God had put into his hands. He makes much of it himself, that the saints might know what it was, and it is that every man should be presented perfect in Christ. Ephesians brings out that the gifts are given from above the heavens, to work out the truth of the assembly and man, for the assembly is formed of men. Hence the position the assembly has in Revelation, the ultimate position it has enters into all this, what man is capable of, what material he is in the hands of God in working out what is to His pleasure. Then there is the idea of the man and the woman, the male and female thought, what possibilities there were at the outset and seen now in Christ and the assembly. The apostle says, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”; that seems to be the theme that God is stressing, Christ and the assembly; that is, it is a question of man, what God has made out of him.
Rem So man as you are referring to him includes male and female.
JT Quite so, that was there at the beginning: “Male and female created he them”. The dual thought is there and will be there eternally; it is what God has effected in that idea, Christ and the assembly. That is the thing to speak about. If we [p. 346] leave the dual thought out we cannot be right; Christendom cannot be right, for it leaves that thought out.
Rem You mean that literally the assembly is composed of men and women.
JT Not exactly that, but Christ and the assembly, the assembly representing the female side, the only feminine thing that remains.
Rem We have connected somewhat the thought of what is feminine as for the heart of Christ; you are thinking of the saints as composed of men and women as for the pleasure of God. So the assembly viewed femininely provides an answer for the heart of Christ, but Christ and the assembly viewed together is what you have in mind to stress in the thought of man.
JT The full divine thought. We get the female side for instance in John in Mary herself; she missed it at the first but she was subject afterwards. We have also the woman of Samaria; she says, “Sir, I see that thou art a prophet”. The Lord calls her “Woman”. So the subject runs through in John, and when we come to chapter 20 we are touching the divine thought, the Father and the Son. So the Lord is seen in John 20 as waiting till a certain thing developed. Certain things developed in Peter and John, but they went to their own home. But the woman was there, Mary Magdalene, and we are told certain things about her. But the Lord calls her “Mary”, she had that name, and now she, turning round, says to Him, “Rabboni”, which means Teacher. I think that is where the matter stands, the feminine thing in John — belonging to man, but the feminine idea fully expressed, for the word Mary implies something in the way of suffering or bitterness which develops something that is suitable for the assembly, and she calls the Lord “Rabboni”. Why is that? It is clear that she valued [p. 347] the thought of teaching and the Lord was her Teacher, and as in that attitude and state she is made to carry the message. I think it brings out what we have already alluded to, that the idea of man requires the female, and that is to be worked out in Christ and the assembly; that in result we are eliminating all other themes but that, what God has in Christ and the assembly.
HH Would you get that in Genesis 2 in the deep sleep and the rib?
JT I think that must come in; we must arrive at the thought of God in a sinless condition, a state in which God is absolutely restful. We have spoken of the abstract thought of man, but now we are dealing with the dual thought, what we are to come to by teaching and whether we are listening to the teaching, and Mary provides what is needed in the system, that is the female side which works out in the assembly.
Rem So she is called “woman” by the angel and by the Lord before she is called by the personal name.
JT That is it. This is most important; it is the beginning and the end of things — Christ and the assembly.
Ques In regard to the name “Mary”, is it not striking that there are three of them at the cross?
JT Yes. The position is rightly filled by persons of that name.
Rem In Matthew’s gospel it is “Mary... and the other Mary”, but in John’s gospel there are the three.
Ques Have you the thought in Revelation 12 in the man child? Does that include Christ and the assembly?
JT The word there is the “male son”. God takes the male son up to heaven to get him out of the way, as it were; He reserves him, as if the time [p. 348] had not just come for the display of all God had in His mind as to that son. So we are entitled to think of great things ahead of us in these matters, and the male and female side will come to light more and more as God helps us to give place to the ideas and to see them working out. Man has been doing much and God is saying, I have been doing something too. He has kept it going, but He is ready to do more for those who pay attention — and it is the idea of teaching. There is teaching and the teaching has to be attended to; it is not to be made cheap, it is what God has specially designed. Mary says, “Rabboni”, that is to say, My Teacher. Each one has to learn whence the teaching comes and how it comes.
CH It is striking that in Genesis the word is said to be Jehovah Elohim. Is that what you had in mind when you spoke of what God is doing?
JT In introducing Jehovah here, God, I believe, had the idea of covenant in mind; and that is the setting in which the man and the woman were to be.
Ques You said that the thought of male and female came before sin came in. What do you say about God resting in that thought?
JT He does rest in it; He rests in His love and His love requires that thought.
Ques The holy city in Revelation 21 is said to be adorned as a bride for her husband. Does not that show how God rests in the thought of Christ and the assembly?
JT Yes. The thought begins with Abraham in Genesis 24. We have divine Persons typified there, the Father, the Son and the Spirit. The Spirit is there in the servant, for the name Eliezer is not mentioned in the chapter; it is a question of the servant and what develops on those lines. A thing that has not been noted perhaps is that the servant seems to be surprised at one time, to wonder at the woman he saw; that is not to be forgotten. There are other [p. 349] suggestions of surprise in the Scriptures in the same connection, but it is not to be wondered at, for the Spirit of God is here in a most lowly, humble way to carry out the divine thoughts. It is not to be unexpected that the Spirit finds wonderful things in the assembly. I am seeking to bring out the idea of wonderment in the divine realm.
Ques “Jealous... with a jealousy which is of God”, 2 Corinthians 11: 2. Does that enter into it?
JT It does indeed. We want to be on our guard, for this subject of the assembly is the greatest thought outside divine Persons.
Ques Would Paul have that in mind in Corinth? Having found Aquila and Priscilla, he abode with them and wrought. Would they come in for the teaching?
JT I think so. They had to leave Rome because they had the status of Jews. Their spiritual history is presented to us at the beginning, continuing in connection with Paul in Acts 18, and it is significant that they come in there and that the truth of the assembly comes out there.
Ques Is there a contrast in the many who “believed on his name” in John 2, whose minds were in operation rather than their affections? You have not the man and the woman there, and the Lord did not commit Himself to them. You had in mind the necessity for the affections being reached rather than the mind.
JT The real position there is, “But there was a man of the Pharisees”. The word “man” comes in there and that is whence the thing is to be worked out, from new birth; the mind of man is shut out by that truth.
AM One of the first things Nicodemus says is, “Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God”. He was prepared to [p. 350] learn.
JT But he was a poor subject. The thought of learning is there, but not learning quickly, and I think that is the point at the present time; brethren are not learning quickly, in fact they are not learning at all in many cases.
Ques Do you think there is not much time?
JT There is very little time left, and we are not learning as we should. Mary says, My Teacher. There is very little being learnt. Ministry abounds, much being heard, but not learnt. Mary represents teachableness, and that is what the assembly is bound to come to if we are to arrive at the thought of God.
Ques How are we to be helped as to that?
JT It is to be taken up just as it is in John’s gospel. Nicodemus speaks of the Lord Jesus as a Teacher come from God, which is very good, but it does not go very far with him. But we have another man in John, that is Nathanael, and he is characterised by quick learning, not taking things merely into the natural mind, but he learns quickly, and that is what is needed (see John 1: 43 - 46). It is a question of our moving to where things are to be seen (verses 47 - 49). Nathanael is John’s type of a quick learner.
Ques Is the full result seen in, “The words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them, and have known truly that I came out from thee”? Is that the idea of their receiving being stressed?
JT Yes, and they were the words the Father gave Him (John 17: 8).
WC The woman in John 4 was a quick learner. She said, “Is not this the Christ?”
JT Yes. I believe these are just examples the Lord would bring before the brethren at the present time.
Ques “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”. “The two shall be one flesh”. Would that be something of what Paul was teaching in the school of Tyrannus?
JT Quite so. Whatever he taught would be severe. It is the beginning of things in Acts 11; and we are told that they taught in the assembly for a whole year; as if, when Paul and Barnabas were about to be called into the ministry, they saw the need of teaching regularly and systematically, so that it should take effect, and I believe that is the beginning of the things that were seen so beautifully in chapter 13.
Ques Would Rebecca be an instance of a quick and good learner? She had said to the servant, “Who is the man?” Would the effect of the servant’s mission have enlightened her so that she was ready for it?
JT That is right.
Ques I would like to come back to this thought of the man. “He that hath the bride is the bridegroom”. Is the discernment of the teaching of the man to show us that by way of the features of the bride we take on what is proper to the man? It is a kind of a compressed allusion to what you have spoken of as the feminine side. Does he credit those he writes to with some knowledge of the movements of the bride?
JT Well, there is something in that; the bridegroom has the bride.
Ques Is there any significance in the fact that the beginning of signs in John was in relation to a wedding; a man and a woman?
JT I think there is. It is probably a millennial allusion, the Lord taking up His rights in Israel. It is John’s way of dealing with prophecy. The millennial situation is that God is going to work out something in man in flesh and blood. There is [p. 352] no doubt that comes in on the third day referred to in the second chapter; that scene is there to bring that out. Another scene that goes with it is in chapter 4; the nobleman who came into touch with the Lord and had his son raised up by the Lord. These are set there in the first part of John’s gospel to show how the truth is worked out.
Ques Is the teaching necessary with us to come into the good of Christ and the assembly, that we might enter into God’s thought in relation to man abstractly?
JT That is the idea of man, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion”. Then we are told of the woman in Genesis 2, how she was a necessity, but in verses 26 - 27 of chapter 1 we have the dual thought. Chapter 2 brings in the historical detail, but the mind of God is there and God is going to finish with it. Paul says, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”; not ordinary marriages, but Christ and the assembly. That is to be the great ultimate as regards the race, the yield for the Lord Jesus on the feminine side.
Rem In Genesis 2 the woman is a necessity for the man in the administrative sphere, and in Genesis 24 she is a necessity for him in the sphere of affection.
JT I think that is right. How much Abraham thought of Isaac, and how much the Father thinks of Christ! So “a certain king... made a marriage for his son” — that is going through.
Rem So, if the assembly fills out the woman’s part according to the divine thought, the personnel that make the assembly have part in sonship — a masculine idea; but is it necessary first to apprehend the place the assembly has femininely, as answering to the heart of Christ?
JT That brings out what the assembly is. It opens up much we cannot touch now, but I think [p. 353] we can see that God is dealing with these things and keeping at them, and the question is whether we are learning.
Ques Does John 6 throw light on this: “They shall be all taught of God”? Then they say, “This is an hard saying; who can hear it?”
JT John 6 is a real test for us as to learning. “They shall be all taught of God”. That is what God has before Him day in and day out. Christendom has left out the assembly thought entirely.