GOD MOVING WITH HIS PEOPLE
[p. 46] GOD MOVING WITH HIS PEOPLE
Philippians 3: 12 - 16; Numbers 9: 1 - 14; Numbers 10: 33 - 36
JT What is in my mind as to the principles set out in Numbers 10 is that as we move, our way being clear, God moves with us. It says, “And they set forward from the mountain of Jehovah and went three days’ journey; and the ark of the covenant of Jehovah went before them in the three days’ journey, to search out a resting-place for them”. That is, the undertaking is definite, a three days’ journey, and the ark joined in to lead in the three days’ journey. I thought we might be helped in linking on Philippians, which is an epistle involving this thought of movement. The apostle himself leads the way, using strong terms, the word ‘pursue’ having a definite end in view. As he says, “I pursue, looking towards the goal, for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus”. And then he says, “As many therefore as are perfect, let us be thus minded; and if ye are any otherwise minded, this also God shall reveal to you. But whereto we have attained, let us walk in the same steps”. There is the thought of movement. Paul uses strong terms as to himself, but he thinks of the saints moving together and urges the same steps. According to what point we have reached we may move together. So with all this in view it is the thought that the passover in its setting here in Numbers might be considered as entering into this matter of unity, of walking in the same steps.
It will be observed perhaps by some of us that the date given in chapter 9 is earlier than the date given in chapter 1; that is, the book begins at a later date than is mentioned in chapter 9. In the first chapter it says, “And Jehovah spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai in the tent of meeting, on the first of the second [p. 47] month, in the second year after their departure from the land of Egypt”. So that this particular instruction is reserved by the writer of the book to insert in the section that speaks of movement. That is what I was thinking that we might look into.
PEHW Does the recognition of the truth of the passover mark the first movements in soul history?
JT Yes. It is the beginning of months and is calculated to set us together in self-judgment. For there is no other ground of being together save in self-judgment. The passover deals with that side.
FW The passover, in the three places in which it is brought forward, has always movement in view. It seems to set the people together.
JT Yes. That is what is stated in Exodus. It says in Exodus 12: 37, after the instructions for the passover are given, “And the children of Israel journeyed”. The same principle comes out that we alluded to in Exodus 13: 20, “And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, at the end of the wilderness. And Jehovah went before their face by day in a pillar of cloud”. That is the principle; they are moving; the way was plain. They had to move out of Egypt but Jehovah joined in as they moved. But it was as keeping the passover that they moved.
HWRS With regard to self-judgment, would the fact that unleavened bread and bitter herbs are mentioned in the case of one that was unclean emphasise that?
JT Quite so. Where there is a defect in the person there is nothing to be left out, nothing in the ordinances governing the passover to be omitted. It says, “With unleavened bread and bitter herbs shall they eat it”. It is more important in the case of a person or persons who are defective and have to delay a month in the taking of it that they should preserve [p. 48] every part of it, because you may be sure that they needed it more than the persons who took it the first month.
CRW Would you apply that at the present moment?
JT That is what it is written for. These types are all for us. It is very interesting that this particular instruction is inserted in chapter 9 as the time of movement had arrived, so that united movement should be according to God. We should not appear to be moving and not be united. The passover is to settle these matters that hinder unity.
FW Does it suggest the settlement of moral questions?
JT That is the intent, so that nobody is to be debarred. These men had been defiled and Moses carefully asks Jehovah about it, and He says, “If any one of you or of your generations be unclean by reason of a dead body or be on a journey afar off, yet he shall hold the passover to Jehovah”.
Ques They had to put away all leaven before they could keep the passover. How do you apply that?
JT It is very simple. The interpretation is given in the New Testament. We are to keep the feast with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. God saw to it that they did not have any leaven because He did not give them time to put it in when they were leaving Egypt. He forced them out. It is sincerity and truth that is needed, that is really the point. So that if there be any cause at all which might debar one from the ordinance, that is the solution of it: go back to sincerity and truth. Why should one be among the dead? He was defiled by a dead body. Why should a christian be among the dead?
CRW What would correspond to that today?
JT It is affiliating with the dead. Our relations are among the living.
EJMcB [p. 49] That would indicate that movement had ceased altogether. There is no movement with a dead person.
CRW This was something that debarred them from the passover altogether.
JT They thought it did, but it did not according to the word of Jehovah. He said they should keep it.
CRW They could not keep it while they were defiled. They had to be cleansed first, did they not?
JT The cleansing is in the keeping of it. If you go back to the beginning, that is the death of Christ. Let us keep it, but keep it with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Rem There was provision made for one that was defiled for a near relative, a father or a mother.
JT We are not to be defiled at all. If any one claims licence to be defiled we have to look into his case. The matter is solved here. They are to keep the passover; Jehovah says they are to keep it.
CRW Would that be on a line with what the apostle says, “Let a man examine himself, and so let him eat”?
JT That is it. Keeping the feast with unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. “Christ our passover is sacrificed for us” is the great objective side of the feast. My part of it is the unleavened bread. That is what the believer has to bring. There is no movement according to God in walking together aside from this sincerity and truth.
HWRS The person may be defiled, there is provision for that, but there is no allowance of that condition of things remaining. Anyone forbearing to keep the passover was to be cut off.
JT Other scriptures provide for one defiled by the dead, but then it took time, according to Numbers 19, to bring about the cleansing. That is not inserted here. The point here is that the feast must be kept. If you cannot keep it the first month, keep [p. 50] it the second month. It is imperative that the feast is to be kept.
V There was something in the desire of these people to keep the passover. They considered for Jehovah.
JT God took account of that. They say, “Why are we kept back, that we may not present the offering of Jehovah?”. They get an extension of a month, but the feast must be held, otherwise there is a penalty.
FW Is not the whole question of fellowship involved here? If he does not do it he is to be cut off from the people.
JT The unity is essential in view of our moving together, and that is the great idea in the wilderness, moving together. This instruction is inserted here just as they are about to move, so that the movement should be of a united character, because the passover was intended to put the people together familywise. It was a uniting thing, but uniting in self-judgment, uniting in the disallowance of sin. Any other kind of unity is abhorrent to God.
WJT Would it be connected with the longsuffering that Peter speaks of-”not willing that any should perish”?
JT It is on that principle, God extending the time in mercy.
PL Would Peter himself be an illustration of it? He had kept company with the dead and denied his Lord, and so he waited another month and the Lord waited upon him in the passover character of His suffering love in John 21. So that Peter follows later; there is movement and he has to learn to follow John and others.
JT That is so. The Lord looked on him immediately after the sin but that was not the completion of the matter. The Lord had in mind that Peter should be in the front rank. He was not to be behind; the Lord was very concerned that he should not have to [p. 51] be behind. He looks on him; that is the first thing. At the exact time that the cock crew the Lord turned and looked on him. It was, as it were, on the calendar that this thing should happen and as it happened His power was there, exactly at the time. Then Peter went out and wept bitterly. That is the first movement on Peter’s side. There was no time lost, because as soon as the cock had crowed the Lord turned and looked on Peter, and he went out and wept bitterly. Then as He arose from the dead it says He appeared unto Simon. That is the principle, I think, that the Lord is urgent that we should be in the ranks, that we should move on. Peter was not behind when the time of movement came, because the real time of movement was Pentecost. He was not behind then; he had kept the passover. He was in accord with the death of Christ. The Lord saw to that.
Ques You said that this was on the calendar. Would the keeping of the passover save us from things that otherwise would be on the calendar?
JT Just so. The thought of the divine calendar is very helpful in this subject, because it is mentioned specifically in Exodus 12. It was four hundred and thirty years to the day that Israel should go out of Egypt. The movement was exactly according to time.
Ques I do not know whether I exactly got your thought as to the calendar in regard to Peter.
JT The Lord had said that this would happen. Anything that is definitely stated to happen is on the calendar in time, because things are kept most accurately. It was as the cock crew. The cock crowing is like the clock, the hour of the day or night, and as that happened the Lord turned and looked on Peter. So in Exodus as the children of Israel are moving out it is four hundred and thirty years to the day, which is indicated in Genesis 15. Everything is moved by the divine calendar, and therefore every one of us is in the divine mind. We want to be in the movement,
[p. 52] because movement is in time, so that you do not want to be behind, you do not want to be out of rank. Peter was not behind; the Lord saw to that, He brought him up to time.
EJMcB You mean that in divine things nothing happens before its time and nothing happens after?
JT That is right.
EJMcB I think this principle would greatly help our local care meetings because we should have no matters to deal with if we judged ourselves when matters turned up. If we took up the question of unleavened bread in ourselves we should always be in rank with our brethren.
JT That is right. Here is Paul; look at him.
He is pursuing. I must keep my eye on the ark or on the cloud moving and I must keep up with it. When it comes to the tribes there was Judah and his company, Ephraim and his company, Dan and his company, all to march together. When the march begins I must be right. That is what the passover is for, that I should be right. If I am not right, then the Lord is very gracious, He gives me a month.
F W. How beautifully that is seen in the Lord in Luke 22. The hour was come. He did not miss the appointment on the calendar.
JT They were all there; the twelve were there. And so at Pentecost they were all together in one place. It is the missing ones, that is to say missing spiritually, that are not keeping the passover.
PL So that Thomas would get his month allowed him and he is found when the Lord appears eight days later.
JT I think that is good. But he missed the main thing. I do not think the Lord took the same pains with him as He did with Peter. The Lord made great efforts with Peter. Peter had a place that Thomas did not have and the Lord would have that place filled.
[p. 53] Ques Have the early verses of Philippians 3 any connection with the passover? Were those features which Paul speaks of as marking him things which we have to judge in the passover?
JT You mean circumcision and the legal side of things. All these things would be just the working of the flesh. The Lord would bring us up to time, because the march is according to His order, the movement is according to His thought and even if we are slow in it, “Whereto we have attained”, the apostle says, “let us walk in the same steps”. Let the ranks be kept.
Ques Do you get the thought of the ranks in the children of Israel going out of Egypt?
JT They did not go out as a mob. It is stated that they went out in rank. I think it is just to credit the spiritual condition that was there. There was faith there. That is the one thing that is said of them; they crossed the sea by faith.
In Exodus 12, Exodus 13 and Exodus 14 there are remarkable spiritual touches. Whilst you have the most precise directions, yet you find things that are not exactly by direction. When Moses tells the people about the passover he puts it all in his own language. If you look at chapter 12, the instructions are from verse 1 to verse 20, whereas Moses’ speech to the people is between verse 21 and verse 27. It is put in his own way. It is the true ministerial thought. He knows how to present the thing to the people, to present the mind of God in an abridged way. Then too in regard of the ranks, five in a rank. It was not stated that they were to go that way but they did go that way. It was to bring out the spiritual formation that was there at that time. If a young believer is going out of the world, if he is of any value at all, there is something spiritual there. They did not go out as a mob. You look at all the saints; as soon as you are converted you think of the nearest christian. That is what [p. 54] is meant. That is the commencement of better things. God loves that.
EJMcB You have your place; you are in rank.
JT You will always find that is the mark of a true convert. He has got some spiritual instinct and he sees that he should be linked with the christians near him.
MDHW Would the four gospels help us to be maintained in the good of the position? There were four days in which the lamb was in the house after it was taken out from the sheep or goats; it was a perfect one.
JT You mean that the Lord Jesus is seen in the gospels under the eyes of men, and then He is taken and slain? That is very touching.
Ques Do you think that the two going to Emmaus were recovered in view of the momentous events that were to take place in Jerusalem? The Lord rebukes them for being slow of heart and speaks of the Christ having to suffer, and He breaks the bread before them. That touches their hearts so that they instinctively go and find the eleven.
JT You are stressing the “slow of heart”? They were not in the ranks. If we are slow of heart that is slothfulness. So He moves them by the breaking of bread and they return at once to Jerusalem. As soon as the movement begins they are there, they are alive. I believe the passover has a great place in our local settings as to moving together. The breaking of bread is the external expression of our unity, the Lord’s supper, “we being many are one bread”, but the passover is the secret state of things amongst us. Unless the passover is kept, public unity is not of much value.
Ques Is that the reason why it comes in 1 Corinthians 5? Paul reminded them of the calendar at the outset.
JT It is in view of the Lord’s supper. Chapter S is dealing with evil and chapter 11 presents the Lord’s [p. 55] supper. Secret unity is brought about by the passover.
Rem So that in Philippians 4 the movement was held up; it was hindered by two sisters not being of the same mind.
JT Just so. That is the great feature of the epistle, to bring that about. Great as the assembly was at Philippi there was a measure of division amongst them, not as bad as it was at Corinth, but they needed to be of one mind and to think the same thing, not only to speak but to think the same thing. I believe the passover brings that about. It deals radically with the state we are in. It is a sorrowful thing to be assuming to be united when there is no real unity. It is the state of our souls that is the real difficulty; we are not sincere in relation to one another.
Rem The Lord’s prayer in John 17 would bring in unity: “That they all may be one”. The passover embraces all the saints of God.
JT It does. It comes in as you go out of Egypt and it comes in as you enter the land. It must be present at every phase of our position.
I thought that, having dwelt on the passover, we might see how beautifully, as we move together, the love of Christ comes into evidence. There is a definite movement from the mount of Jehovah for three days. It is a definite period of time. It is not a question of the distance. Distance geographically is taken account of in verse 11, “The cloud was taken up from off the tabernacle of the testimony. And the children of Israel set forward according to their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud stood still in the wilderness of Paran”. That is the public position, but now it is the private thing. The spiritual side of it is this three days’ journey from the mount of Jehovah, and as they took that three days’ journey the ark took the same journey. That is the love of Christ; we cannot afford to be without that. We may have the first great movement to Paran, that is the cloud,
[p. 56] but the movement of the ark is what we want to get hold of; what it did outside of any previous announcement. You never can tell what love may do for you. Love looks for definiteness, and it moves definitely too. They moved a three days’ journey; it is a purely spiritual matter.
CRW Would the three days be connected with the Lord’s journey through death and resurrection?
JT That is the thought. It is that kind of journey you are set for.
EJMcB The Lord refers to it, does He not, when He says, “I must needs walk today and tomorrow and the day following”, Luke 13: 33. He would lead us into the realm of spiritual blessing in resurrection, and He would give us credit for moving in the same direction ourselves.
JT It took them more than three days to go to the wilderness of Paran; that is a public thing, like Corinthians, which is the public side. Ephesians is the spiritual side. The ark goes before you there and you get rest on that line.
EJMcB There is no knowing what you may be led into on that line.
JT If love goes before us we get somewhere. We are not to awake love till it pleases, but if you let it go before it will take you somewhere. We cannot afford to be without the resting place that love gives.
Ques It says in the Song of Songs, “Come with me ...”, Song of Songs 4: 8. Would you connect that with this?
JT Just so. What is so beautiful about it is that there is nothing said about this movement before. In these typical books, where you get nothing said about things before, the incidents allude to spirituality. Without spirituality the externals must be dead. We may have meetings at set times but if there is no three days’ journey there is no spiritual power.
[p. 57] EJMcB Do you mean that there are certain instructions which we are bound to abide by, but then there are spiritual things that are opened out to those that follow them?
JT Yes. The instructions are like the banks of the river, but if love moves it is never to be restricted.
It is to be allowed to have its full scope. It falls in with me. I am going a three days’ journey; that is my mind. It is death and resurrection really and I am going that way, but the ark goes before me and it leads me somewhere that I had not thought of.
EJMcB “Taken possession of by Christ Jesus”,
Philippians 3: 12. The power of the love of Christ really held the apostle’s mind.
JT That is very fine.
Ques Is it important to see that they set forward from the mount of Jehovah?
JT Yes. That is the place of resources. If you are going to take three days’ journey you must have resources. You must be furnished. That is the thing to look for with the assembly, this great movement that is not spoken of before.
V In Jeremiah God speaks of Israel going after Him in the wilderness (Jeremiah 2: 2). That is a spiritual movement, is it not?
JT That would be more the general thought of the cloud; as it moved they moved. But here they are moving after the ark; that is something to get up to. The ark makes a way. As you move, it joins in and finds a resting place. We need a point of rest for our souls. The Lord says, “Ye shall find rest to your souls”, Matthew 11: 29.
Rem Moses would have had the son of Reuel, his father-in-law, to lead them, but it is the ark that leads.
JT Yes. Moses had thought that Hobab would be eyes for them. I have no doubt that the ark here is the answer to that.
[p. 58] Rem You were speaking just now about moving together. If everyone had the mind that was in Christ Jesus, that would produce unity, it would move us together.
JT Yes. That is the idea in Philippians, the mind that was in Christ Jesus; not merely our profession, but our thinking the same thing.
EJMcB Does not feeding on the passover form the inward state?
JT There is the thought of a whole in it “Neither shall ye break a bone thereof”. The saints are to do one thing, to eat one thing, roast with fire.
Rem The instruction that not a bone shall be broken occurs in the second passover.
JT Yes, it is remarkable that it comes in in the second passover. It is mentioned in Exodus 12, but it comes in in the second month. That means that the unity is to be kept. It is a whole idea, not a broken thought. It alludes to the church, but it is all inward; it is what you eat.
PL Can you have the ear of God about enemies unless you are moving with the ark? Difficulties prowl round us, but can we expect deliverance for anything less than what is here set out, moving in affinity with the ark, in relation to the desires of Christ for the assembly?
JT I think that raises a very important question how the deliverance comes. When the ark set forward Moses said, “Rise up, Jehovah, and let thine enemies be scattered”. The ground is cleared; the ark sets forward and Jehovah rises up and our enemies are scattered. Then when it rests, “Return, Jehovah, unto the myriads of the thousands of Israel”. It is a poor thing to expect God to be amongst us when we are not united. It is not respectful to God to expect Him to come in. Not that He does not come in, for He is more gracious than any of us, but if we invite [p. 59] Him it is to the place of unity, to a united state of things.
CH Does that flow out from a movement on the part of the people towards the thoughts of God? The three days’ journey was a movement towards the thoughts of God.
JT The spiritual side in all these types is interwoven with spiritual things of which you get no account before. You cannot get any previous account of what is spiritual. It is beyond us but it shows itself and we should be looking for its manifestation. A three days’ journey occurs in Exodus 15; that is a spiritual thought. As you are spiritual there is an increase of spirituality in the movements of the assembly.
CH They are not warring here, they are journeying.
JT They are journeying definitely and in spiritual conditions. Journeying to Paran is a question of territory, but this is a spiritual matter. It is not a question of territory; it is inward, more like Ephesians.
CH It does not exactly give a destination but it speaks of a rest, so that when we come to spiritual things, are we not always given the impression that there is something beyond?
JT This movement leads into eternity. It is love’s movement; you will never get the compass of that. It is Ephesians really.
PEHW Would the unleavened bread be entirely negative and this be taking possession of the thoughts of love?
JT Quite so. The ark has its place so that we are now moving spiritually.
Ques Are these two movements seen in the close of John? The Lord presents Himself in the midst.
JT John 20 is the second word of Moses here.
[p. 60] John 18 is the first word, when He says, “I am”. That is the secret of the ark. The ark is always a mysterious thing, but if it moves you are being led on spiritually.
Ques Is it important to see that in the epistle to the Philippians two sisters are spoken of and exhorted that they should be of one mind in the Lord? I was wondering if the sisters would help as being of one mind in the Lord.
JT Just so. It is remarkable how they are brought in. There is generally a tendency amongst us to leave everything to the brothers. You will find if you ask how many are in fellowship you will be told how many brothers are in fellowship. That is not the way to put it. Not that the brothers are not distinctive, because the Spirit of God makes them distinctive, but we must remember that the sisters count, and they certainly count in spirituality.
Rem I thought it would imply that these two sisters were not getting on together and the apostle would adjust that.
JT It does imply that. It is very often that a difference amongst the brothers arises from the sisters. It is sure to show itself in the brothers.
Rem We get true fellowship in judges 1: 3, where Judah says to Simeon, “Come up with me into my lot, and let us fight against the Canaanites, and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot”.
JT That is the idea, it is the mutual feeling.
WAT I suppose as being under the sense of this latter part of the chapter we should be more in order in regard to the other part. It would greatly help us in our meetings to come to the spiritual side.
JT Yes. It is “Rise up, Jehovah”, it is the spiritual thing. What are our meetings if God is not with us? Is God among you? That is the great [p. 61] thing. The outward order is nothing unless God is with us. “Let thine enemies be scattered”; not mine, but Thine. It is a question of God and His assembly. And then, “Return, Jehovah, unto the myriads of the thousands of Israel”. So that God has a place of rest among us.