SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (2)
SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (2)
Revelation 11: 3 - 13; Revelation 12: 1 - 6; Revelation 21: 9, 14
SMcC The thought of unity appears in these passages in relation to the testimony; and suffering, and glory. It is important that we should see how the assembly comes on to view; especially as in chapter 12, where the enemy’s hatred and activity are directed against Christ and the assembly. It may be somewhat in a hidden or abstruse way, but Christ and the assembly as we know is involved in the child caught up to God and to His throne. Then we have the thought of the Lamb’s wife; trustworthiness has been acquired in the circumstances and scene of suffering, and now it is seen in her as a vessel, coming out with the glory of God, and then unity is seen pervading the whole thought of the city, as is conveyed in the numeral twelve. We know that chapter 11, which we began with, dispensationally alludes to another period of time than that in which we are, but the principles that come on to our view in the circumstances in which testimony is borne would apply in all dispensations, and they are particularly helpful at the present time in the current circumstances of the testimony. The brethren will notice that in these passages the thought of completeness enters in to what is conveyed. First, the witnesses complete their testimony; it is an important thing at the present time, that testimony should be completed and that it should not be left half-completed, whatever the sorrows or the suffering may be that it entails or involves. Then, in chapter 12, the child is brought forth, there is a completed result, and then of course, in chapter 21, the assembly comes out, which is another completed result. After all the history throughout the dispensation and all that the assembly has had to contend with, she comes out to share with Christ in the administration.
PL Is this thought of completion seen in perfection in the Lord, in relation to His own suffering testimony, “Behold, I cast out demons and accomplish cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I am perfected”, and later He said, “for it must not be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem”, Luke 13: 32, 33?
SMcC Just so. We see how the Lord completed matters in His testimony here. You remember how He said to Pilate, “I have been born for this, and for this I have come into the world, that I might bear witness to the truth”, John 18: 37. The testimony before the authorities, and the powers that be would all enter into this matter of completing the testimony. The unity in the testimony is very remarkable, it speaks of “their body shall be on the street of the great city”.
PHH Does the completion of the testimony, as you are now speaking of it, stand somewhat connected with prophecy, that is the speaking forth in general of the mind of God?
SMcC I think it does. And the prophetic side brings up matters in people’s consciences. It says in verse 10 “they that dwell upon the earth rejoice over them, and are full of delight, and shall send gifts to one another, because these, the two prophets, tormented them that dwell upon the earth”. They were glad to see them die, glad to get rid of them, because the word of God bore in upon their consciences, and tormented them.
JMcK Does the thought of measuring the worshippers imply that there is to be one divine standard? We have the measuring of the shrine, and the measuring of the altar, and them that worship in it. Would the idea of what conforms to the divine standard be in mind?
SMcC I think it does. And it is a salutary reference there, because the court without is left, it is not measured; that is, it is not a question now of dealing with Christendom at large, it is those that are in immediate nearness and responsibility to God, and even as we sit now in relation to one another, and in relation to God, we must be prepared for this measuring.
PHH What connection do you see between the priestly side, and the measuring of the worshippers, and the prophetic side, as in verse 3?
SMcC I think it shows that all these matters are interlocked. We cannot divorce them, and say they have no relation to one another; they are interlocked. That is, the service of God, and the matter of the completing of our testimony - there is an important link in it. Then there is the matter of trade unions and testifying to the Government. There has been a good deal of disunity amongst us as to the matter of approach to the Government. Perhaps we have failed to see that it is a matter of completing testimony. We think of our dear brethren in France, prayer has been going up universally for the young men in view of the completing of their testimony, that God may make a way by His angel for them, in the National Assembly in Paris.
JTJr So Moses completed his testimony immediately. There was an extensive period, seen in Moses’ testimony in Egypt, involving that he went in continually into the presence of Pharaoh, and finally he is told to see Pharaoh’s face no more.
SMcC It is a very interesting section to which you refer; and we see the moral courage that marked Moses. One of the great things that is needed in regard to this matter of unity in testimony is moral courage. Indeed, I think, brethren, we should face the matter as to whether we are prepared to lose our lives, I do not mean just spiritually, I mean actually - whether we are prepared to go that far.
AH Does the standing before the Lord of the earth bear on this matter?
SMcC I think it does. Are we to allow the enemy to interfere with divine rights, to entrench upon Immanuel’s realm, Immanuel’s land, without raising any issue? That would not be according to faith, or to grace either. We are to remember the rights of God in this relation.
GRC In Zechariah 4 it closes by saying, “These are the two sons of oil, that stand before the Lord of the whole earth” (verse 14), and in chapter 6, as to the four chariots, the answer to the question is, “These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth”, verse 5. Does that bear on what you are saying as to bearing testimony before Governments? They are responsible to the Lord of all the earth, but then the Lord of all the earth has His witnesses to bring home to them the rights of God. Is that so?
SMcC I think that is important. The authorities represent mysteriously, agents of control, indirectly under the hand of God, in view of the testimony; and they are to be acquainted through testimony rendered, as to the rights of the Lord of all the earth. They are to be reminded through testimony to them, that God has a people here that He is supporting, and sustaining, in relation to these rights.
GRC And that they themselves stand in responsibility to the God to whom witness is borne.
SMcC That is it.
PL And to hold the ground for the only true and coming Heir?
SMcC That would be it, in view of the Lord coming in, as this book from which we have read contemplates. The One who is the Heir of all.
RWS Is it a daily matter in verse 3? It is not there a period of three and a half years, or a matter of so many months, but a thousand two hundred and sixty days. Would it suggest preparation daily for this suffering?
SMcC Yes, it would. The protracted period of time in their prophetic service is very interesting in that sense. When it comes to verse 11, the time is limited, “And after the three days and a half the spirit of life from God came into them”. In regard to the prophetic service, it is protracted and extended; but in regard to the answer to God in the completed result, which means the losing of their lives, it is limited; so we have “in three days and a half the spirit of life from God came into them”, Of course it is symbolic, but the modification is interesting in that sense.
CMM Would our faithfulness in claiming the earth for God lead to this giving glory to the God of heaven? The Father is spoken of in Matthew 11 as “Lord of the heaven and of the earth”. I was thinking of the pleasure of God in verse 13, and the link between “the God of the heaven” in that verse and “the Lord of the earth” in verse 4. These two witnesses are holding the earth in faithfulness, and do we not claim the earth for God? As that is so there is an answer in glory being given to God of the heavens.
SMcC Yes, it is interesting that the remnant were filled with fear, and gave glory to the God of the heavens. While the testimony stands related to the Lord of the earth, the result works out in glory to the God of the heaven.
PHH Are you suggesting that along with the much prayer that has been made about several matters, that the prophetic side and showing ourselves in testimony to the authorities should be the accompaniment? I was thinking of Elijah; James tells us that he was a man like ourselves, and that he prayed with prayer; but in Kings, he says to Ahab, that he stood before Jehovah, and there should be no rain except by his word. Do the two things go together?
SMcC They do. The moral courage and power that enters into that is important. Because it requires moral courage and power to carry the testimony before the authorities.
PL “Shew thyself to Ahab”, 1 Kings 18: 1.
SMcC Show thyself; that is it. It is not just words of mouth; it involves words coming out of the mouth, but a great deal is made of the eyes in this section. It says they see the witnesses; and so those in Government in high office and the like are to be impressed with the saints, and what is seen in them.
HAH Is there an impression of unity in the reference to “their body” being in the singular twice?
SMcC Yes. That is what we referred to at the beginning of the reading; the mention of the body, in the singular in that verse, would point to the unity of the testimony, although you do get their bodies in the plural in verse 9. It is a great matter that there should be unity in testimony in regard to this matter that involves the rights of the Lord. And it would encourage us to see, and encourage our brethren to see, in the Scriptures that have been referred to, the great system of divine help, and divine support, that lies behind the testimony rendered.
CH And alongside of that, the acceptance of the principle of martyrdom, which this testimony might involve?
SMcC I feel we have to face that matter, I speak feelingly - we would all speak feelingly about this matter. I must say it has come up in one’s own soul, as to whether we are prepared to accept martyrdom if it means an issue in the public sphere,
and for the testimony. Are we? We all have to face that now.
WJT Would the leverage be that it is in the place where their Lord was crucified?
SMcC That verse is interesting as introduced by the Spirit of God through John here, because it would touch the affections, that that realm, the great city, which is called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, is where our Lord was crucified. It is stained with the guilt of that awful crime, and surely that would touch deeply in our souls.
CH We cannot isolate ourselves from what the Lord is raising in other countries, because it is being accomplished in the “brotherhood which is in the world”. Should we not learn by delineation? The Lord is raising issues in certain parts, and we are all to face the principles which are involved in the experiences of others.
SMcC So that it is a matter that we are all bound up in, in that way. That passage in Peter says, “knowing that the selfsame sufferings are accomplished in your brotherhood which is in the world”, 1 Peter 5: 9. And the word ‘brotherhood’, being a feminine word in the original, would mean that the subjective side, the state of the saints, is entering into it.
WSS Has that been the basis on which the testimony has come down through the centuries? Paul himself speaks of being delivered unto death, and dying daily, and facing martyrdom.
SMcC I think there is ample witness all the way down through, right to our own time as to the preparedness to accept martyrdom, if it came to the full issue as to the truth.
WSS However challenging it may be, it is the truth today, that that is our place in relation to the testimony. It is a very big thing to say, but it is readiness to die, is it not?
SMcC We have to face it. Whether we are prepared for it or not is another matter, but we have to look into it, and face it. If our Lord went that way, and if Stephen went that way, and if Antipas went that way, would we expect to stop short of anything less, if need be?
RGB In the type of the Hebrew bondman, he says “I will not go free”. And then of the three in Daniel it says “they would not bow”. Is the same spirit of committal to the truth to be seen in us as was seen in the Lord Jesus? Our prayers may not effect deliverance, and a spirit of martyrdom is required on that account.
SMcC I think it is. And we are tested as to our devotedness in that relation, and whether we are prepared to accept, in the spirit of unselfishness, the limitations that bondmanship may involve.
MAW Would you say that perhaps deliverance may come in, as in Esther, “If I perish I perish”, but was not that the way in which deliverance was effected?
SMcC Just so. And along with that we have to face the fact, or face the prospect, that deliverance may not come in. These two witnesses, symbolic as they are, were killed, they were conquered and killed. Well, brethren throughout the world have lost their positions and jobs, in facing the matter of the trade union issue; and no deliverance has been wrought for them. We have to calculate time, and see what God has in mind.
AH Does what we are constitutionally enter into this? It says in verse 4, “These are the two olive trees and the two lamps”.
SMcC That is why we began the meetings with the subject of the water, because, if there is any dark part with us, it surely will affect the testimony, and the completing of it.
JTJr We have the principle of two here, and while it is symbolical, there is something in the idea of two.
SMcC Yes, there is a divine principle in it. It is referred to in other parts.
JTJr It is on that principle that the assembly has really come into evidence again.
SMcC Yes, I suppose you have in your mind that Matthew 18 would enter into it, “Again I say to you, that if two of you”.
JTJr Two of the assembly.
WC Is it significant that in the last letter to the assemblies in Revelation 3 the Lord presents Himself as “the amen”, suggesting what is completed; and then as “the faithful and true witness”? In settings of indifference to what was due to Himself and of love for Him, does He represent Himself to the assembly, as “the faithful and true witness”, as if He would recover the features of true witness in the assembly?
SMcC Yes, that helps. It is interesting to see how it stands at the very beginning of the book, where the subject of witness and testimony comes up peculiarly. The assembly being publicly in the place of witness, but having failed, the Lord presents Himself to the assembly in that light, as if He would awaken the conscience of the assembly as to the matter of witness bearing, and of loyalty and faithfulness.
PL Would the “liquid myrrh, five hundred shekels”, having such a large part in the holy compound connected with the anointing of the tent of meeting and the ark of the testimony, bear on the unifying power testimonially, sufferingly, of the spirit of Christ universally, marking the saints?
SMcC The whole system was marked by the anointing, and the chief ingredient suggests suffering in that sense. So that it would cover the whole position.
GRC Does the word to Laodicea indicate that the testimony becomes the proof of our affections for Christ? It is really those who are ‘hot’, who can render adequate testimony, not those who are ‘lukewarm’.
SMcC So that the Lord would raise the question with them that they were neither one nor the other. Because they had become so engrossed and absorbed with material things, material goods and the like, that they were neither one nor the other. It is an important thing that we should be ardent, in that way, in our affections for Christ, and ready to complete our testimony.
GRC There is a point I wonder if you could help us on. In a good many minds, I think, there has been some doubt as to whether Scripture supports us in taking the initiative in an approach to the authorities. I have had a letter recently on the subject, and there was a time when one’s own mind was not clear. Some have thought that if the requirements of the authorities go against conscience, we should not say anything to them about it, but just bear the suffering involved, and some seem to feel that in approaching the authorities, and putting the truth before them, we are trying to avoid the suffering.
SMcC I do not think it is any question of avoiding suffering. It is a question of a responsibility before God, to enlighten that which He has set up Himself, in an ordered manner in this world, and which basically and abstractly stands for the protection of His interests in it. Why should government not be enlightened? Many, I think, have thought that redress was being sought in regard to personal wrongs done on a human level. That is not the point at all. The point is that witness is to be borne to the truth; testimony is to be completed before the powers that be, the governments, in line with what they are abstractly as ordained of God, without any question of personal redress.
GRC So that in a country like France, where since the Revolution the government has apparently been marked by a non-recognition of God, it is an important matter that it should be brought to the attention of the highest authorities, that there is a body of Christian faith and steadfast devotion in that country.
SMcC I am sure it is important that we should see that, and that our brethren should see that. Take the Huguenots, and the others, that suffered for the truth, as you go back through the years; so great was the hatred that some of them were not even allowed to be buried inside the city, and the like; then there are all the others, and what has come in since. Are the brethren now going to be behind in drawing the Government’s attention to what God has under His hand at the present time, that which is prepared to go to the wall, to maintain the divine principles in the testimony?
PL And has not God ordered all the circumstances in which the nations now find themselves, and allowed the demands which they make, to force into evidence what God has here in their midst?
SMcC Yes.
AJG The Lord before Pilate said, “Thou hadst no authority whatever against me if it were not given to thee from above”, John 19: 11. Was He calling Pilate’s attention in that way to Pilate’s own responsibility to God?
SMcC That is it exactly. He puts the matter back on Pilate, and in our testimony in the United States, to the Government, and appeal in regard to the truth, it has been putting back on them a sense of their responsibility to God, that there is a people in their midst that is thinking of God, and is prepared to die for principles that are according to God.
JMcK In connection with this matter of power given to the two witnesses, I think the word is ‘efficacy’. Would there be with the witnesses the ability to bring the thing specifically to the conscience of authorities?
SMcC I think that is the point. It is not done in a vague way, but, as you say, something specific has to be done, and something specific has to be said, along with prayer and fasting.
JMcK And not merely for relief, but in order that the truth might be borne witness to.
SMcC I think that is the point, I might just read one or two passages in the Acts as to Paul. The question of whether it was right or wrong to appeal to Caesar comes up in our minds. It is interesting that before Paul made the appeal to Caesar in chapter 25: 11, it says in chapter 23: 11, “the following night the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good courage; for as thou hast testified the things concerning me at Jerusalem, so thou must bear witness at Rome also”, The Lord was in that matter and overruling things in view of the witness to be borne at Rome. The truth thus is specially in mind.
WJT Ananias had a message for him in relation to it, that he was to bear His name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel, “for I will shew him how much he must suffer for my name”, Acts 9: 16.
SMcC Just so. Then in Acts 27: 23 it says (and this is the scripture; this is not what I say, or anyone else is saying, this is the scripture), “For an angel of the God, whose I am and whom I serve, stood by me this night, saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must stand before Caesar”, Think of some of the brethren that there might have been that had misgivings or reserves about Paul going to Caesar, when all heaven was behind him in the matter!
RGB So in 2 Timothy 4, where he speaks about appearing before Caesar, he says, “But the Lord stood with me, and gave me power, that through me the proclamation might be fully made”, verse 17, I wondered if that bore on your thought as to the completion of the testimony.
SMcC Very good. “Fully made” would link on with the completing of the testimony here.
JTJr In the chapter you have referred to in Acts, Paul’s sister’s son was really the one through whom the relief came to Paul. Does that show how things that are right may start in a small way, otherwise Paul might have been slain?
SMcC That is very good. We might say in such instances, Well, why not count on God and just pray? But then there are all these methods of operations that the Spirit of God brings before us, and we are not to make little of them, in that sense, small as they may be.
PHH It was possibly Paul’s prayers that brought this young man forward.
SMcC No doubt it was.
MAW Do you think therefore that in chapter 16, Paul was right when he speaks of having been beaten publicly uncondemned and then insisting that the praetors themselves should come to release them?
SMcC Well, they are just the facts, that what they did was not right; and, while it may be thought that Paul was standing on his dignity, we have to bear in mind that the government, and men in government, have to be reminded of what is right, and the due processes of law.
WH Would that be seen in John the baptist’s word to Herod in regard of Herodias, “It is not lawful for thee to have her”? Did he not lose his life for his testimony?
SMcC And it is very interesting in that relation, if I remember rightly, in Matthew 14 the verb in the Greek is the imperfect tense, according to the note that Mr. Darby gives. Literally it is, ‘kept on saying’. That is, you keep at it; you are not dismayed if there is evil resistance, or lawless resistance to prophetic service and testimony. You keep at the thing, keep on at it.
WMcK Does the thought of standing enter into that? It says of the witnesses in Revelation 11 that they “stand before the Lord of the earth”, and then, verse 11, “they stood upon their feet”. It was not a time for lying on their faces, although that might come in in other regards.
SMcC That is important, because God said to Joshua, “Wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?” John 7: 10. There is time for lying on the earth, lying on our face, but then there is a time for standing on our feet.
AJG You were saying that there must be the keeping on at it. In verse 11 of chapter 10, John says, “And it was said to me, Thou must prophesy again as to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings”. It is as though he was told he must keep on at it.
SMcC Just so.
PL And the importunate widow in Luke?
SMcC Exactly. She was heard because of her importunity. We may wonder, as some of us have wondered, at the long delay; but then, shall we give up, shall we not keep at it in importunity?
CMM Would you advise us to emphasise conscience when before these people? They have consciences themselves.
SMcC I think that is very important, because that is what the people do not like; the tormenting in verse 10 has to do with the conscience. It is the keen edge of the prophetic word on their conscience that they do not like. And when they are reminded of conscience it bothers them, like the gnats in Egypt, it is a source of annoyance, a source of irritation.
AH The prophets were clothed with sackcloth irrespective of the firmness of their communication. Would you say a word about that?
SMcC I think an important feature comes in there, that we should be marked by what is comely, and by a sense of humility and dependence so that the governments of the world can see that there is a different kind of humanity. It is not the kind of humanity that will be consummated in the man of sin, but the kind of humanity that was seen in Jesus.
JSE Would you say a word, please, as to the bearing of the Lord’s own ministry? I think it is in the early part of Luke 12, as to the place the Spirit has in helping us as to standing before these agencies.
SMcC I think it links with the olive tree here. You are referring to the fact that the Spirit speaks, as it says in Luke 12: 11, “when they bring you before the synagogues and rulers and the authorities, be not careful how or what ye shall answer, or what ye shall say; for the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the hour itself what should be said”. I think there would be a link with the olive trees in that, that the testimony is rendered in the power of the Spirit.
WSS You have referred once or twice to the importance of what is here. You spoke of it in connection with France, for example, and I was wondering about the opening verses of the chapter, the measuring of the temple, and the altar, and them that worship in it. It raises a question with us as to our appreciation of what is here, and what is ascending to God from the altar, and the service of God carried on. Would not that be very strengthening to us to have before our affections in all testimonial positions?
SMcC It would indeed. It shows that God has taken account of what there is. It may be in a small way, but He has taken account of it in relation to His own pleasure in it.
WSS I was thinking of the importance of our taking account of it also.
SMcC Well, that is important too, for John says, “There was given to me a reed like a staff, saying, Rise and measure the temple of God”.
PL Would 1 Corinthians 13 suggest what is measurable - love, and chapter 14 the prophetic word issuing out of that?
SMcC Yes.
PHH Would you say a word about the next part, as connected with this? We have, the voice out of heaven, in verse 12, for instance, and the invitation to “Come up here”. Is that heaven intervening as a kind of crowning approval of their sufferings and pathway in this testimony?
SMcC It is very fine how heaven says “Come up here”. They did not want them down there; they were glad to get rid of them, and sent gifts to one another because they thought they had got rid of them; but heaven says “Come up here”. It is not just ‘Come up’, but “Come up here”. The location of the place, “Come up here”, and they went up to heaven in a cloud. That is, there is a correspondence with the Master, for He went up in the cloud.
JTJr So it is a very interesting thought that these two really form part of the heavenly order of things. That is, they are not an earthly family, they form a heavenly one.
SMcC Just so. That is, heaven says of persons that have completed their testimony in the sense in which we have been referring to it, “Come up here”, because they are part of the heavenly order of things.
ANG Does it actually show that what has been given testimony to is heavenly in its character? Mr. Taylor used to say that while Paul claimed Roman citizenship in the prison in Philippi, in his epistle to the Philippians he said “Our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens”.
SMcC Exactly. So that we are all tested as to where our interests are, because we cannot expect to have power in prophetic testimony and witness if our interests are bound up in the earth, and bound up in the world.
CJHD Does Nehemiah 2: 4 give an example of a successful appeal to the authorities? There is testimony as to the city lying waste, and then the king says, “For what dost thou make request?” Nehemiah says, “So I prayed to the God of the heavens. And I said to the king ...”.
SMcC Well, that is an encouragement to us in regard to these matters that we have been speaking about. We should be encouraged to approach the authorities in view of these particular matters that require the intervention of the authorities, for God may have gone before us; He may have sent His angel, and have been working with the authorities, and we may find favour as we come to them.
AJG So that the king said to Nehemiah, “Why is thy face sad?” Is not that like the sackcloth with these witnesses?
SMcC That is it. We feel this matter; it enters into our beings, that God’s rights should be disputed, and that the liberty of Christian conscience should be denied. We feel that, and the authorities should get a sense of the fact that we feel it.
APCL According to Romans we are subject to the authorities for conscience sake. Should not there be the impression given of that, and that it is distressing to us that we cannot be subject to them for conscience sake, because they are standing out against God?
SMcC Just so. And do you not think “for conscience sake” would also apply to this matter of completing testimony? It is right that the government should be enlightened as to the fact that there is that which God has here which can be called attention to in testimony.
APCL So that it is a matter of an enlightened conscience that is brought to bear upon them.
SMcC That is it.
EEH How do you regard the word in Acts 5, “God must be obeyed rather than men”?
SMcC That is what we have to recognise when it comes to a full issue as to the truth, that God must be obeyed rather than men. We have to be prepared to stand by what we have conviction in regard to, in relation to the rights of God and our consciences.
FVW Would it be seen in Daniel? On the one hand Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not pollute himself, and, on the other hand, he requested certain things of the prince of the eunuchs; and then it says, “And God granted Daniel favour and mercy”.
SMcC That section helps in regard to the matter, and it becomes very challenging to us, as to whether we are clear in regard to matters. How can we approach the government in regard to matters if we are not clear in our own circumstances and lives of what would be defiling in regard to unions and associations and the like.
AEM If there are two of them in the country you could approach the authorities on the ground of the assembly.
SMcC That would be the point in Matthew 18, “if two of you shall agree”. That is, if two persons of the assembly, having the assembly interests at heart, approach the authorities in that light, they can count upon divine help.
CH Would faithfulness of this kind make way for the power of God in life? God seems to come into it in verse 11 after a certain period.
SMcC It is very interesting how it is put there,
“And after the three days and a half the spirit of life from God came into them”. Now notice, it does not say ‘it was sent into them’, it says “it came into them”, I think the ‘coming into them’ shows the condition that there was there in affinity with it.
JTJr Would you think that morally they would have to go through death first? I mean we have to go through death morally before we know what the spirit of life from God is.
SMcC I am sure that is right.
CH They were not caught up to heaven immediately. It says “they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon those beholding them”. Before they were caught up to heaven they evidently were a testimony to the power of life.
SMcC That all contains important principles for us at the present time, not only in regard to our brethren who are suffering in France, and we think of them feelingly, but in other parts of the world.
We must go on now to the woman here in chapter 12. Perhaps now we come to what comes nearer home in regard to conditions in our localities involving the necessity of the maternal side, and the necessity of a completed result in this relation. So that right results are arrived at, as it says, “she brought forth a male son”, and then “her child was caught up to God and to his throne”. The thought of unity is conveyed in the crown of twelve stars upon her head; it is unity in an administrative or governmental setting.
PHH May I ask you a little more about this maternal side? Did you say earlier that the assembly is included in the male son? How does the maternal side work out in connection with that?
SMcC I suppose the inclusion of the assembly in the male son would be an abstract thought (we are to learn how to hold abstract thoughts), but the woman in travail would be a very concrete thought.
Although there are certain abstract features linked with her, the travail would be very concrete and it raises the question as to whether we are working out deliverance with completed results accruing in the child being brought forth.
PL And is that what the enemy is set against - divine matters fruitfully brought to a spiritual conclusion?
SMcC He always is against that; as we have said already today, having been defeated in the open battlefield, he will come in in a seductive way; and he will hinder the saints going all the way in the judgment of evil, or in the solving of issues as to evil. If he can get them to stop half way he has gained the day as far as the matter is concerned.
CMM Is right administration arrived at by the development of the maternal side amongst us? I was thinking of Lemuel’s mother and the prophecy that she taught him; Proverbs 31: 1. And then Rachel said, “Jehovah will add to me another son”, Genesis 30: 24.
SMcC That strengthens the thought of unity in this matter, because the completing of the twelve was in Benjamin, and it was through travail and sorrow.
JMcK I was wondering about your reference to chapter 12. Does it come in over against chapter 11, where there has been faithfulness? Heaven now proceeds with its own thoughts and gives power for carrying them into effect.
SMcC I think so. And it is a great thing that we should hold to heaven’s thoughts. The woman here was “clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars”. These are glorious thoughts that we have to cling to, and not give them up. However much the power of evil may be present, we hold to these heavenly thoughts.
JMcK Is it not important that the sign is seen in the heaven? Things have to be met on earth, and are met in testimony, but heaven unveils its great proposals, and its power to bring them all into effect, and to care for what is on earth, too.
SMcC What mystery would attach to this! The human mind would be baffled by it, but God would enlighten us as to what enters into this great matter of the woman seen in this glory, and the child that is to be brought forth - a definite result.
WWS So that travail would be a much deeper and more intensive exercise than wearing the sackcloth. Does the bringing forth involve these deep, secret exercises?
SMcC It does, and all the power of heaven is behind the woman to help her. Christ is in mind, in the male son, and the assembly too, and the devil is against it for the red dragon is standing before the woman. The proximity of the dragon is to be noticed; we should be reminded, in that way, of how near the enemy is to attack this thought.
AH Is that the enemy religiously?
SMcC Say something more what is in your mind.
AH I was wondering whether there is some mysterious reference to this religious element that is really set against the man child.
SMcC Of course the religious side is linked with it, as we see in the details of the mystery of iniquity as it works out; but the political side is involved in it too as we see in Herod in the early chapters of Matthew. You have got a link between the two, the political side and the religious side.
GRC So that when it speaks of the male child being “caught up to God and to his throne”, does not that involve the priest and the king - “caught up to God”, is the priest, “and to his throne”, the king? And do not those two thoughts - kings and priests - run through the book; and is not the enemy’s attack against that?
SMcC It is interesting to see that. As if the enemy is against royalty, and against priestliness among the brethren.
GRC That is what I had in mind; they are the two great qualities required in testimony.
SMcC Yes.
AEB In chapter 10: 7 it says “the mystery of God shall be completed”. Are not all these things that we have been speaking about working out in those days? Would you say a further word about it?
SMcC We know that chapter 11 completes the historical side, “The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ is come, and he shall reign to the ages of ages”. When we begin chapter 12, we come to the details that are wrought out in the scenes that have been described symbolically in the previous chapters.
JSE Do you suggest in your allusions to the woman, the unified exercises of the saints in relation to Christ and His rights?
SMcC I thought so. That is what was in one’s mind, and especially the matter of bringing forth the male son. The enemy does not want administration according to God. He does not want government according to God, or royalty according to God, because he knows that that means his overthrow. He is thus ready to devour it, to spoil it and to destroy it, if he can. But he cannot.
AJG Hence all the exercises in the local assemblies at the present time have in mind the development of this ability to shepherd in a right way in the day to come.
SMcC That is it. At the present time the principle of the male son would work out in royalty according to God, as seen in this dispensation, grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life.
GRC So that the exercises assemblywise have been concentrated a good deal upon the development of priesthood amongst the saints, the service of God, which would link with her child being caught up to God, but we need further help specially perhaps, now, on royalty, the power that would carry the testimony in the way you have been speaking.
SMcC I think it is very important. I find in moving around amongst the saints, and in observing conditions, that there is great need for the male son, great need for moral power, moral courage to maintain the truth, and to face things in regard to the truth, and all that is inconsistent with our heavenly position, or with our pilgrimage and sojourning here.
PL Does the Spirit urge the intensity of the thought, in the dual expression “male son”?
SMcC It is remarkable. It would have been sufficient to have said she brought forth a son, but it says she brought forth a “male son”, that is, the matter is intensified. The remnant say, in the prophet Isaiah, “We have been in travail, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought the deliverance of the land, neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen”, Isaiah 26: 18. Here, instead of bringing forth wind, we have got a definite result, “a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations”.
RWS Would the thought of associations be a little more delicate than the matter of trade unions, and would the throne and the idea of royalty, that have been alluded to, bear upon it?
SMcC I think so, I think the Lord is helping us to review all matters at the present time. A time of grace, and a time of patience is given, but there is need to look into all matters; professional associations and business associations need to be looked into. We are not saying that everything is wrong, but it is a question of looking into matters, and seeing what involves compromise of the truth.
EJB And every locality should have the same aspect in relation to it?
SMcC That is what we have in mind in unity. So that in Revelation 21, the Lamb’s wife comes on to our view. The holy city is identified as the Lamb’s wife, and unity marks the whole position. Wherever you look, you are reminded of the unity that enters into the position in the number twelve.
JSE Is it presented as the spiritual outcome of the exercises that have already been touched?
SMcC I thought it was. The allusion to the seven angels, and the seven bowls, full of the seven last plagues, would throw us back in our thoughts to what has gone before.
JSE I thought the allusion to the Lamb’s wife would involve the road of moral exercises being completed, and she is qualified to have that position on that ground.
SMcC Just so. She has come through, over against the false woman, the whore that is judged, and she is a trustworthy confidante of the Lamb, of Christ. The other one does not go through. The violent man in Proverbs does not go through and the seductive woman does not go through, but this woman goes through, and the male son goes through.
GRC Is there any help in looking back at chapter 15: 5 - 8, in this connection, because it says “And after these things I saw, and the temple of the tabernacle of witness in the heaven was opened; and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in pure bright linen ...” The temple of the tabernacle of witness points to the assembly, of course, and the tabernacle of witness is here at the moment, but according to this verse it is in heaven, and these seven angels with the seven plagues come out of the temple of the tabernacle. That is, you come out as you may say, from the very heart of the assembly, of course, the presence of God, and it says in verse 8, “And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power”. It is as though the assembly is entirely in accord with these seven angels going forth - filled with smoke. It is in sympathy with God in His judgments. That precedes what we are on now, and I wondered whether it helped at all.
SMcC I think it is important to see in that sense the link between the moral side, and the spiritual side here, in the Lamb’s wife; we cannot, as it were, divorce the two. While they may be separate departments, the one leads into the other, so that we must be right morally if we are going to move in power spiritually in kingship, and in priesthood in administration and the service of God.
WSS In chapter 18 it says, “Rejoice over her, heaven, and ye saints and apostles and prophets; for God has judged your judgment upon her”. I was thinking of that in connection with the remark as to the necessity of the saints being in communion with God in regard to the moral conditions around.
SMcC It is very important that we should be in accord with heaven’s judgment of matters. It says of certain “they shall be priests of God”, not priests to God, but “they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years”. That is, priesthood is blending with royalty in the administration of the kingdom.
JTJr While it may appear that the assembly is out of sight, in the previous chapters, from chapter 4 to the one we have now read, actually she is there all the time.
SMcC Do not you think that that is very helpful and important in regard to the present dispensation? We may have thought that the assembly was out of sight, in certain periods, but she is there all the time.
APCL Is verse 10 important in view of our seeing this matter, “And he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain”? So many people say they cannot see these things.
SMcC That is a good point to finish with. We need to see how near the Spirit is to us in regard to these things, and how available He is to us, to help us to see the assembly and what the assembly is to Christ in this light.