SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (4)
SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (4)
John 10:7-18; John 10:27-30; John 11:1-6; John 11:32-44; John 12:1-8
SMcC These passages that we have read bring on to our view the thought of unity as seen in the one flock, and then in the circumstances at Bethany we have the thought of the family, figuratively setting out, as it does for us, the family of God. And it is in chapter 11, verse 51, that we get John’s comment on the prophecy of the high priest, that year, “that Jesus was going to die for the nation; and not for the nation only, but that he should also gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad”, verse 51. The thought of the children of God brings before us the thought of the family, and, as the brethren would know, John does not give us formally, sonship in the saints in his ministry; he generally deals with the thought of the family of God from the standpoint of the children. It helps us therefore to see that while the sheep and the one flock bring in the idea of what is collective, touching what we have in Paul’s ministry in relation to the thought of the body, the family side brings out individuality. It brings before us persons, but as John 12 shows, after the experience of chapter 11 is worked out, they are bound together in unity in the knowledge of what has been wrought, and in the appreciation of Him who wrought it, the Lord Jesus Christ. I thought we might get help in regard to these two thoughts. They are well-known chapters, and the brethren may often have considered them, but perhaps the Spirit may help us afresh at this time in regard to what comes out here, in the way that love is made way for, in this section.
AJG Would you say what is the distinctive thought connected with the flock?
SMcC It brings up an interesting point, in relation to the sheep. It is not a question of how sheep are born, how they come into existence, but, as we know in John 10, it is a question of what the sheep are, and the features that mark the sheep that are there that the Lord as the Shepherd takes account of. I thought the flock would link with the saints from that viewpoint in the Colossian letter. Both the Colossian and Ephesian letters would involve what we have in these two sections in regard to the sheep and the family, would you think?
AJG Perhaps you would open that out a little more.
SMcC Well, the great thought of “leading out”, and “putting forth” is prominent in the service of the shepherd, and Colossians views the Lord in His influence upon the saints in relation to what is outside of Judaism, for Judaism adds nothing to the position in Colossians. This section refers to the Lord as leading out, putting forth; His influence is seen in that direction.
GRC Have you in mind that the word “they follow me, and I give them life eternal”, would involve following Him over Jordan, according to Colossians?
SMcC I would think so. In verse 10 we have, “I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly”. Life in that sense is linked with the position over Jordan, the faith state in the saints, as viewed in Colossians, laying hold of it. So that the subject of life, entering into all these passages is very important, and shows that the unity is an organic unity. It is not only unity in the truth, as we considered earlier, which is very important, but unity in life. That is, the life is the same wherever you view it.
JSE Is there any significance in the fact that the Lord seems to present this side of the teaching to His enemies?
SMcC I think there is. But would you say something more on what you are thinking of.
JSE Just that He uses this figure of the sheep, on the one hand; it was that which was within the compass of their understanding, but it was to show that they were outside the range of enjoying its operations.
SMcC So that oftentimes, where the truth comes out in the presence of opposition, there are special touches which we might not have got otherwise. I think that is the setting of John 10. Life abundantly is exclusive to this dispensation. That is, no other family has this touch of life that the sheep of Christ have. The flock, the assembly viewed in that sense, comes into it now.
JSE Has there been over the years, what we might call a spiritual build-up in the truth, coming to light in the presence of enemies, but the enemies not coming into it?
SMcC So that the line of demarcation becomes more and more distinct, between the opposition to the Lord and His sheep, and what would nominally occupy a position, but not be according to the divine order.
PHH Does the voice become of particular importance in that setting?
SMcC I think it does. Much is made of the voice in this chapter. And the reference in verse 3 that we did not read, to the porter, is very important in that relation. Who is the porter opening to? The porter is not opening to the thieves and the robbers; the porter is opening to Christ, making way for Christ, the true Shepherd.
J.G.M. Who is the porter?
SMcC The Holy Spirit would be in mind in the figure of the porter; He opened the way for Christ. As the Lord was baptised, and the heaven was opened, the porter made way for Him. The Holy Spirit was there, and Christ was sealed by the Father, as He entered upon His public service in ministry.
PHH Would the question of the voice stand over against the persuasive speech, and similar things, in the Colossian epistle? It says here that the sheep know his voice, but they know not the voice of strangers.
SMcC What you refer to is very interesting, because one of the things that enters into the mystery of iniquity, or the mystery of lawlessness and its operating, is speech. Speech has a peculiar place, for God said, you will remember, in Exodus, “Who made man’s mouth?” It is peculiarly one of the greatest and finest organs that God has made in man and the enemy has entrenched upon that, just as he has entrenched upon the expanse. He has come into that matter of man’s mouth, especially in view of antichristian principles being promoted, that would make way for a rival to Christ.
PHH So what is connected with the voice is leadership. It says, “When he has put forth all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice”.
SMcC We are all tested as to whether we know the voice in that way; the characteristic of the sheep is that it knows the voice. So that we can measure ourselves, for John gives us measuring lines by which we can arrive at where we are in regard to the Lord and in regard to the truth, and this is one of the measuring lines as to whether we are amongst the sheep of Christ, and hear His voice.
AH Do you distinguish therefore between His words, and His voice? We have His voice referred to in chapter 5. I wondered whether you had in mind that the voice really covered the whole range of the truth.
SMcC The voice peculiarly brings out the personality of Christ, in certain relations. We get the voice of the Bridegroom, the voice of the Son of God, the voice of the Shepherd, in this gospel. Why is John making so much of the voice, his ministry bearing on current conditions in the last days?
LGB Would the word in Revelation 1 bear on it? “I turned back to see the voice”.
SMcC That is why one was referring to personality, as linked with the voice. John turned to see the voice, and what he saw was the Lord Jesus. Personality is peculiarly linked with the voice.
Ques Might the Shepherd’s voice be heard in these meetings?
SMcC We sincerely hope it is. We trust it is not the voice of the wolf, or the voice of the thief. We trust that we hear the Shepherd’s voice, in gatherings such as these.
ECL Would you connect what is in the body of the saints with the thought of what is in the flock, and how the Lord’s voice in the truth is recognised? Is not that sometimes more reliable than one speaking here or one speaking there?
SMcC So that there is a great value in seeing, in that sense, what there is in the body of the saints. It has often been pointed out, and often been noticed, that one of the distinctive things that characterised J.T.’s service was the room that was made for what there was in the body of the saints.
ECL Does not Paul speak of really protecting that, by way of oversight? The Holy Spirit is seeing to it that that is protected by way of oversight, so that the wolf does not get in.
SMcC Just so. There is a certain safeguard in what there is in the body of the saints by the Spirit, although, of course, leadership is always required.
JMcK Would the voice connect with the Lord passing on? We have, at the end of chapter 8, that He was passing on, and it says in the beginning of chapter 9, “as he passed on”. Would this voice be a kind of delineation of that passing on, and indicate where the Lord is in the matter? And as Psalm 78 speaks of His leading - “He brought them to his holy border”.
SMcC So that if we do not recognise the voice we may be left behind; we are not among the sheep of Christ characteristically in that way. It is important to see that this section is full of movement. Here we have the Lord coming in, and going out, and putting forth; and then in the next section, with the family, it is full of movement.
CH Would the light of the Son of God, which is in the end of the previous chapter, be carried forward into this chapter? Is the Shepherd the Son of God? He is introducing us into that realm where the Son of God is to be supreme.
SMcC That is right. And the presentation of the Shepherd and the flock is to draw out feelings, and to bring in the richness and refinement that are linked with the development of feelings in the assembly. Surely there is much room for that, and the enjoyment of life more abundantly would help in that relation.
WSS Does the Lord come first of all into the Jewish fold, and then, calling His own sheep, He leads them out of that, with a view to the formation of the flock?
SMcC Yes, that is what is in mind.
WSS By application, have we not all got to get out of what is Jewish, to be in the flock?
SMcC So that John makes a good deal of Jewish opposition; indeed the world, as it is presented in John’s gospel, is largely characterised by what is Jewish. I suppose the Jewish element is the most damaging element that John the apostle brings on to our view.
JMcK Would the several occasions when the emphatic ‘I’ is used in this section bring into mind who the Person is? I was thinking of the way it occurs in the earlier chapter: “Before Abraham was, I am”. Does it bring us to the inscrutability of this divine Person, and so involves mystery in the matter of shepherding?
SMcC I think so; and along with the Person of Christ, in that way, the Father comes in, as in the latter portion of the chapter. The Lord brings the Father in, saying, “My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one can seize out of the hand of my Father. I and the Father are one”. We have mystery linked with the knowledge of these two wondrous Persons, in relation to the sheep, and the matter of security, life eternal, and not perishing.
AH The matter of suffering is brought into this again, but is it of note that the Father loves Him because of that?
SMcC Yes, the Lord laying down His life furnishes the Father with the motive for loving Him, as we have often heard, “On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again”.
PHH Referring to this matter of the Lord’s Person, when He says “I am the door”, and when He says “I am the living bread”, and other expressions, are we to understand that behind those specific things, there is the inscrutability of His Person? “I am the door” would mean what He is, I suppose, but “before Abraham was, I am” would be the greatness and deity of His Person, would it not?
SMcC Yes. John all the way through stresses the Person of Christ. The very opening verse of his gospel draws attention to that, and all the way through the greatness of the Person who is before us in the mediatorial position constantly comes on to our view.
PHH The entering in, as the Lord says, is “by me”; would that mean that presently there will open up to us the greatness of the Lord’s person, as shining upon everything in this gospel of John?
SMcC I think so. In that sense there is a link with Colossians, where the Person of Christ is projected on to our view in a very special way. It is very interesting that in Colossians there is only one allusion to the Spirit, and that reference is to the saints, and their “love in the Spirit”. From there on we get the Person of Christ enlarged upon in the ministry of Paul to the Colossians.
JTJr How do you think we get hold of the truth of the door now?
SMcC I think we arrive at it by response to light as it is presented. As light is presented to us, in regard to the truth and divine thoughts, we come into the gain of what Christ is as the door, and we move in relation to it. Perhaps you would say something as to it?
JTJr In verse 7. He says, “Verily, verily”, that is Christ, “I say to you”. That is, He is emphasising this point of the door, “I am the door of the sheep”. So you would have to see what that would mean now; the door must mean the way into things.
SMcC It is important in that light to see the principle that stands in the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, namely, that you only understand the truth rightly when you move into the circumstances to which the truth applies. Therefore, if light comes into your soul as to the truth of God, you cannot work that out in circumstances that are not in keeping with it; you have to move out of them.
JMcK Would the idea of hearing the Lord’s voice be somewhat instinctive, but would coming to the matter of the door involve understanding and movement?
SMcC It does. The door is the way in. It is not that the truth is the door; the Lord is saying that He is the door.
EEH Would you say the man in chapter 9 would be one who would be led into the flock by the door?
SMcC I think he finds the door.
AWGT Does not that confirm what you said, that we have to be in the circumstances in order to get the gain of the truth? The man in chapter 9 came into the circumstances which enabled him to find the door.
SMcC The Lord heard he was cast out, and He found him, and presents Himself as the door. He presents the light of another world to him, in His own Person, as the Son of God. But I should like to hear something more, Mr. T., of what is in your mind in regard to the door.
JTJr The Lord further says, in verse 9 again, “I am the door: if any one enter in by me”, so I would think the point would be how we come into things now. It must be by this means, “by me”, He says. But then we have to see how that would be, for instance, in anyone coming in amongst us, as we say.
SMcC Do not you think it is linked with the assembly at the present time, in the thought of the one flock, and the one Shepherd? The Lord is presented as the door, but the Lord is not here corporeally now, so that there would be some answer to the thought in what is here in relation to the Spirit.
JTJr So then, the whole matter would be under the Lord in any case. Someone coming in amongst us, it would be a question of the Lord as over it.
SMcC Just so.
JH Is that seen worked out practically with Ananias in connection with Saul of Tarsus?
SMcC Well, it is. The Lord is over the whole matter in Acts 9; but then we find that under His hand are certain things here below for the Lord says, “Rise up and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do”. That is how Saul of Tarsus is coming into things; the Lord is in control and charge of the whole matter, but He is calling attention to what is here.
MAW Later on in the Acts, in regard of Saul being brought to the apostles, it says “Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles, and related to them how that he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him”. I was thinking of the reference to the Lord as the door, and the Lord being over all.
JTJr So would there be two points there? There was what was directly with the Lord, and then what was directly with Ananias, linking with your point of the assembly.
SMcC I think it is very helpful to see how this is working out in that sense, because, as we were taught years ago in connection with persons coming into things or finding their way into things amongst us, there is no such thought of reception. There is no idea of an administrative act in receiving them; you are really recognising what is there, that is under the hand of the Lord, and what is represented in Ananias would be the recognition of what is happening in the washing of the robes.
CH I would like to ask Mr. T. if he not only thinks that we recognise the Lord’s hand as over things, but that souls have had to do with the Lord for themselves in finding their way.
JTJr Quite so, they have had to do with the Lord. The Lord is the first consideration in the matter. He must be, He says, “I am the door”.
CH Saul had had to do with the Lord, and the Lord had had to do with him, before he met Ananias.
JTJr That is really the point, I think, that connects here. The Lord says twice, “I am the door”. Well, He had got the sheep in mind evidently as an area of things.
AJG Would there be any connection, do you think, with what we have in Hebrews 13? It seems to give the way out, and then the way in there. It says, “Therefore let us go forth to him without the camp, bearing his reproach”, and then it says, “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually to God”. Do we get the idea there of being brought out, and then being introduced by Him into the sphere where the service of God proceeds?
SMcC That is an interesting link, in that way, with what we have here. So that what we are now considering is important, how the Lord stands out in this matter, and how the sheep are viewed as having to do with the Lord in this way. It is a question of what is characteristic in the sheep, not exactly what is developed. There is no thought in this chapter of development; it is a question of what the sheep are basically and characteristically, and there is a cue in that for us, in regard to persons coming into the truth, whether it be initially, or in recovery.
APCL Would the fact that the thought of sheep is used indicate the tenderness that would mark us in dealing with such persons? I am thinking of the way in which the Lord speaks of laying down His life for them. There is a tendency with sheep to go astray, and that kind of thing, but would that not tend to concern us that persons should find the right way and have to do with the Lord?
SMcC Yes, the sheep in that sense develop the thought of care, they are the objects of care, I suppose,
however we have to keep clear that in John’s gospel the sheep are not viewed as going astray; they are characteristically viewed as under the influence of the Shepherd, although subject to alien influence.
WC Are they not regarded as the Father’s gift to Him? He says later, “My Father who has given them to me”. Would not that be purpose?
SMcC That reference is interesting, for it is a question of divine ownership. We have the wolf, or the false shepherd, and it is a question of disputing divine ownership, whereas the Lord is asserting divine ownership here. Therein lies our safety, because we are to understand this word ‘perish’, and the fact that the Lord gives the sheep life eternal, over against the perishing conditions.
AJG Is that the result of the sheep characteristically hearing His voice, and following? Does it not result in their coming into life eternal?
SMcC I think that is how the truth is set out here. It says, “they shall never perish, and no one shall seize them out of my hand”. We have to let that have full weight in our minds.
GRC Would you say a word as to verse 14, and the kind of knowledge that the sheep have? We usually think of sheep, in the figure that is used, as not having much knowledge, but needing much care.
SMcC I think the Lord is indicating, in this section what we have in the Colossian side of the truth, which opens up the thought of knowledge. The Colossian and Ephesian epistles open up the thought of knowledge, and develop it in a refined way, and the sheep are referred to, as the Lord says, “and am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father”. That would be the divine standard of knowledge that is before us in the economy, and the sheep come into that character and kind of knowledge. The divine standard of knowledge would be in the assembly now.
PL “That ye may be filled with the full knowledge of his will, in all wisdom and spiritual understanding”, Colossians 1: 9. Then we have “walking worthily of the Lord”. Is that it?
SMcC Just so. It is a knowledge that is not derived from the activity or the influence of the human mind, but a knowledge that is derived from being under the influence of Christ, which Colossians emphasises.
GRC Would you say a word as to the level of it, “as the Father knows me and I know the Father”?
SMcC I thought that that was the divine standard of knowledge that we are brought into, as having part in the mystery, just as we have it, in another relation in 1 Corinthians 13 the great chapter of love, “Then I shall know according as I also have been known”. It is the divine standard of knowledge that we shall arrive at the judgment-seat of Christ in the perfected state. But the sheep are brought on to this standard of knowledge in their links with Christ now. What would you say yourself about it?
GRC I cannot say much about it to add to what you have said; it seems so remarkable, “as the Father knows me and I know the Father”. He had the full and complete knowledge of the Father’s will and pleasure, and the Father had a full and complete knowledge of Him.
SMcC I think we are all tested as to this knowledge, and how much of it is apprehended by us, and enjoyed by us. Because it involves the intimate links that we have with divine Persons, especially the collective position being stressed, for this chapter stresses, or emphasises the collective position.
AJG Does it flow out of being characteristically near to the Lord, and attentive to His voice, because the flock normally is never far from the Shepherd, is it?
SMcC No, it is not. That is why one is emphasising the thought of intimacy in regard of it. It is important that in these days, when there are those who mount up elsewhere, the thieves and the robbers, and when there is the character of the wolf around, that we should keep near to Christ, so as to come under His influence, and under the Father’s influence too.
RGB In Colossians 2 you have the thought, of “being united together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery”. That is over against the thought of persuasive speech, would that bear upon what we are considering?
SMcC Yes, one has that section in mind, which makes a good deal of man’s mind, and man’s speech, as it appears there, and as Paul meets it and counteracts it by the presentation of the headship of Christ. We must abide in Christ. Colossians 2 involves John’s way of abiding in Christ. If we do not abide in Christ, hold fast the Head, we will come under the influence of men. Why is it that so many, sometimes, are affected wrongly? Because we are not abiding in Christ in that sense.
CMM You spoke just now, of restoration. Would you be free to guide us as to what we should look for in one seeking to be again amongst us?
SMcC Well, does not the Lord take up the matter of restoration in this book? He goes into things with Peter, and not once, nor twice, but three times. Peter seems to show almost a little irritation the third time, but the Lord emphasises that matters have to be gone into, in that sense, and things be fully bottomed, and fully judged. You would look for self-judgment in persons finding their way amongst us, I would say, and for indications that they have been with God, and that they have been with the Lord thoroughly about matters.
TJG Would you say that when Peter replies to the Lord’s third enquiry, “Thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I am attached to thee”, referring to the knowledge that the Lord had of himself, that there was there what was obvious by way of repentance and recovery seen in Peter. Is that right?
SMcC Yes. Peter has to learn that he cannot generalise, and just say, Well the Lord knows all things, from the standpoint of omniscience. Well, the Lord does know all things, but then, it is a question of what comes concretely on to view in persons in their restoration.
JH Would it not be manifest that they knew His voice?
SMcC You would look for that. That would be a characteristic in persons that are right in regard to the Lord, and in regard to the truth.
PHH Does the matter of the shaving of the hair, as in Leviticus 14, become an apparent evidence that the man is on the way to restoration?
SMcC Yes, it is part of the cleansing operations. It is a stripping of all that which attaches to the man personally, in view of his coming into the realm from which he was put out.
JSE At which part of the reading did you introduce restoration? I thought the word was ‘reception’ that you used. Did not you say that we have to bear in mind what we were taught some years ago that we have no justification to speak of receiving people? Is not that what you said?
SMcC I did say that, but I also used the word ‘restoration’ just incidentally, in passing along, referring to what was alluded to in the door, and persons coming into things. It was just casually referred to.
WC Does restoration come in more in Luke?
The sheep here characteristically are immune, are they not, from these influences? They may be scattered, but in themselves they are preserved. First of all the Lord says they do not hear the voice of the stranger, those that went before Him, and then they follow Him.
SMcC Yes, we want to see that, in John’s gospel the sheep are what they are, there is no question of development with them. But then, certain principles are laid out in regard to the door, and the way in, that govern us in all matters.
RWS Would it be diverting to bring in the prayer meeting, and the care meeting, and personal visiting in the light of Paul’s word in Acts 20 “to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own”?
SMcC I think what you are referring to now is important, because we want to see that the thought of the assembly is to weigh heavily with us in all matters; the one flock is John’s way of referring to the assembly. And when it says, in Matthew 18, “Again I say to you, that if two of you shall agree on the earth”, it is not exactly that two singly agree, it is the thought of the assembly that is weighing heavily in the mind of the Lord, as He says those words.
JSE When you say not two singly, what did you just mean? Do you mean they do not get by themselves?
SMcC Well, it is “two of you”. The whole context is dealing with the augustness of the assembly, and the Lord contemplates what might come into the dispensation, and He says, “If two of you shall agree”. What is weighing in the Lord’s mind is the assembly - “two of you”.
AJG Even though the expression of it is as small as that?
SMcC Just so. But Dr. S., in regard to what you were saying, would you say more?
RWS Well, shepherds and teachers come as one gift in Ephesians 4. It may be the teaching by itself involves the platform, but would not involve the trials of being a shepherd.
SMcC It is very important that we see how shepherd feelings, shepherd care and protection come into this chapter in contrast to those that serve for wages. We have had a good deal, of course, about service, and the like, in these meetings, and I think it is very important that we should not serve for wages. It is baneful to think of service carried on for wages. It may even be the actual expression of fellowship. What a poor level service would fall to if it was only on that level, instead of care and love for the sheep in an unselfish way.
MLJM Does Peter’s first letter help us, when he says “exercising oversight, not by necessity, but willingly”?
SMcC Yes, and it is interesting what is referred to in that relation; it is “shepherd the flock of God”. We are never to let the consideration for persons, just as persons, to overshadow the thought of divine proprietary rights, divine ownership. We are to see that that has full place, it is “the flock of God”.
JTJr And the shepherd is concerned that the sheep are not scattered; that is his main business.
SMcC A very important business, too.
JPH Paul says in Acts 20: 33, “I have coveted the silver or gold or clothing of no one. Yourselves know that these hands have ministered to my wants, and to those who were with me”. And he goes on to give this choice quotation of the Lord’s own words “I have showed you all things, that thus labouring we ought to come in aid of the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said,
It is more blessed to give than to receive”. Is that over against serving for wages?
SMcC That is a very remarkable thing, how the Spirit of Christ in Paul comes out in Acts 20, whether as the shepherd, or like the Hebrew bondman, there was the unselfish way in which he was among the brethren, serving, even as he says to the Corinthians “if even in abundantly loving you I should be less loved”. In fact, although he was local at Corinth for such a long time, yet he would not take anything of them in regard to levitical service lest he should give any ground for their boasting.
JWC It says of Israel that he “served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep”, Hosea 12: 12.
SMcC He is a type of the Lord in that way, in His service, how He served for the assembly. We are to be marked by that spirit, and it involves how we are in the local positions, because we have to bear in mind that leadership is essential, and the shepherd brings in the thought of leadership. The mutual side in the flock cannot be held exactly by itself, without the influence of the shepherd as has been said. Mutuality is not always safe, if it is brought forward, or set forward over against leadership.
FDW So it says in Acts 15, “leading men among the brethren”.
SMcC Yes, “among the brethren”, not above the brethren.
PHH Would you say a little more about the introduction of the Father in this chapter? The Lord brings it in in verse 15, and it seems to follow throughout the chapter. We understand, I believe, that in reading John’s gospel, the Father was the thought which was very close to the Lord. He says also “My Father”. Is He now transferring the flock, so to speak, on to a more family ground, in introducing the Father?
SMcC I think so, and especially emphasising, as it were, the economy and how divine Persons are in the economy in relation to one another and in relation to the saints. You will notice that immediately He brings the Father in in this way in verses 29 and 30, it says, “The Jews therefore again took stones that they might stone him”. That is, it draws out the peculiar activity of the enemy, just like the economy in the beginning of the Acts draws out the frontal assault of the enemy in Acts 5 in Ananias and Sapphira.
PHH Yes, I think that is a great help, I was thinking of something like that. We have perhaps the Spirit, in the porter, would you say, and then the economy, in a major way, in the Father and the Son, so that we are handed over to the best.
SMcC That is it, and we should see the unselfish relations between divine Persons in this holy matter, the unjealous and unselfish relations in regard to the sheep. The Lord says that they are in His hand, in verse 28, but then He says in verse 29, “no one can seize out of the hand of my Father”. We can see the remarkable way in which things are held in this circle of things.
WSS Does verse 17 show how the Lord had the Father before Him in relation to the flock, what the flock would mean to the Father?
SMcC It is all in that setting and environment that we have that.
WSS Would it not link up with the burnt-offering, the Lord’s devotedness in securing what would be for the pleasure of the Father eternally?
SMcC Yes, exactly. John stresses the burnt-offering side, the voluntary side, of the Lord’s laying down His life. Now we must come on to chapter 11. The Father is brought into chapter 11, in verse 41, in regard to the particular matter on hand. The Lord “lifted up his eyes on high and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me; but I knew that thou always hearest me”. The thought of the family here is very important, because there is a good deal of pressure among the brethren, and the pressure is intended to bring out the feeling side. The family side in John 11 makes particular room for the development of feelings where there is pressure bearing in upon the family.
GRC Did you say at the beginning that the family brings out individuality, in contrast to the flock, where we are all viewed alike?
SMcC I thought that was the setting in which it is viewed here. It says “Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus”, and also “He whom thou lovest is sick”. It is a question of the Lord’s links with each of the members of the family.
TJG Would you say a word as to the two words used for love? In regard of Lazarus in verse 3 we have the love of friendship, and when it refers to the women, in verse 5 there is the settled condition idea, in love.
SMcC Well, we have to make room for attractiveness in the family of God. There was the thought of attractiveness in Christ Himself, and the first word for love bears on that in regard to Lazarus. Why should we take issue with that? If there are those that draw out the love of friendship from Christ, we would delight in the thought of it.
JMcK Were you thinking that the Lord would bring in something of the glory of the Father, in His operation at the grave?
SMcC I thought the glory of God really involved that, “Did I not say to thee, that if thou shouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?” What was the glory of God? In the wonderful way that the power of death was met, and life comes on to our view in one who is raised from the dead.
PHH Does not that come in confirmatorily in chapter 12, where the Lord is speaking to the Father, and the Father is answering? The Lord says, “Father, glorify thy name”, and then the voice out of heaven says, “I both have glorified and will glorify it again”. Is not that mentioned in relation to the Father specifically?
SMcC Yes. Now in chapter 11, verse 41 follows immediately verse 40, that is, the Lord raises the issue as to the stone, the stone has to be taken away. Now we are to notice that in this setting here, because, when we come to the rapture, as we perhaps may have heard, there is no idea of taking the stone away. When the Lord descends Himself personally with the assembling shout, there is no suggestion or idea of the stone being taken away, the dead in Christ will be raised. But there is an issue involved here, and the Lord says “Take away the stone”. It is not that He is going to do it. He could easily do it, but that is not the point. He is saying “Take away the stone”, and Martha would hold Him up in relation to the stone. The point, I believe is, that all that is linked with that corrupt condition must be faced, but faced in the light of the glory of God, and the power of God that can cope with it, and deal with it. We do not want to keep the stone on the mouth of the sepulchre, if the Lord says “Take away the stone”.
ECL Would you be free to say something about the thought of the sisterhood that comes in chapter 11? Some prominence seems to be given to the idea of the sister.
SMcC It is very interesting how the sisterhood comes in, and especially in regard to this matter of the stone. That is, it is not the Jews that the Lord is speaking to; the Jews are there, but the Lord says, in verse 39, “Take away the stone. Martha, the sister of the dead, says to him, Lord, he stinks already, for he is four days there”. It is as if Martha would keep the stone there; she does not want the offensiveness of all that is hidden behind the stone to come out. But if the glory of God is to enter into this matter, and the power of God, the stone must be taken away, and the sisters are to understand that.
JTJr So she does not say any more after that. I was thinking it would show the way she was reached, “Jesus says to her”. Is it not an affectionate reference - “the sister of the dead”?
SMcC It is, and an unusual reference, “Martha, the sister of the dead”.
AH Over against that statement, would you say a word as to verse 2, where the Spirit of God seems to emphasise that Lazarus was Mary’s brother?
SMcC It shows how personality stands out in that way, in Mary. The Spirit of God through John projects her on to our view before the matter of death is dealt with. In chapter 11: 2 John says “it was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick”. But when we come to verse 39 that was referred to, it is “Martha, the sister of the dead”. A very interesting link, to see how both of them are linked with Lazarus in the different ways in which he is referred to.
TJG Would you say how you are connecting in your mind this matter of the issues to be raised, the corruption, with the thought of the family?
SMcC We do not like, perhaps, the offensive side to come fully out, but the Lord joins issue with the matter; He said, “Did I not say to thee, that if thou shouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?” He did not say to her, ‘Did I not say to thee that if the stone was rolled away thou shouldest see the glory of God?’ He said, “Did I not say to thee, that if thou shouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?” The issue had to be met in Martha’s own soul, just as the issue has to be met in every one of our souls in similar circumstances.
Ques Is that issue met in the fact that they rolled away the stone? While Martha was concerned about the corruption, they rolled away the stone?
SMcC It is very interesting to see that the moment the Lord meets the issue in Martha’s soul, and Martha seems to get help, it says “they took therefore”, notice that adverb ‘therefore’, it does not just say ‘they took the stone away’, the adverb ‘therefore’ reflects on verse 40, “Did I not say to thee that if thou shouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?” Then it says, “They took therefore the stone away”. Then the Lord lifts up His eyes on high; it is not now the sepulchre, not now what is behind that stone, but He lifts up His eyes on high and says, “Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me”. There is moral order in the way the circumstances are related here.
AH Is not the Lord Jesus declared to be the Son of God by this matter, and does His glory shine out as well?
SMcC Just so. You are alluding to Romans 1, “marked out Son of God ... by resurrection of the dead”?
AH Yes, and the transfer of the whole family on to another ground.
SMcC Yes, off natural grounds on to spiritual grounds. That is a very important thing, because there is nothing more baneful, or nothing more hindering than natural links, and social links, if they come into the assembly. It hinders the glory of God shining out, as it were; whereas, we want to see the importance of these spiritual links in the family of God, with which the glory of God is linked.
WSS Are those spiritual links established at the beginning of chapter 12?
SMcC Well, they are; we see the power of spirituality there in a realm where Christ is everything - He is the dominating object. Lazarus is not the dominating object, nor Martha nor Mary; the Lord, the Son of God is the dominating object.
JSE Does the expression “they therefore” suggest that there are persons who are following in the current of what Christ is after in the incident?
SMcC I think so, there is a link in sequence, therefore, with what has preceded, and I believe that the allusion to the pure nard bears on all that has gone before. It suggests that motives are clear, there is nothing opaque, nothing mixed; the result in this scene of spirituality is pure nard, which Mary has.
WMcK Would you say that as the result of facing the issue, and the operations of Christ in relation to it, that in this chapter we have the odour referred to? The stink had to be faced in the previous chapter, but now the scene is clear morally and we have the odour.
SMcC Just so, “the house was filled with the odour of the ointment”. How much that means in a realm like this! The pure nard is really what has been arrived at, it is what Mary is expressive of, and the odour fills the house.
AH Does this reference to pure nard support your thought as to quality?
SMcC Exactly. These thoughts are running through, and the note indicates that it is a word difficult of interpretation, but most likely pure. It is a result that is arrived at; it is not only that Mary has it, but it is affecting the assembly as we speak of it, the house being filled with the odour.
WF Do you connect the pure nard with the reference in the end of Ephesians 6: “Grace with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption”?
SMcC That is just how I was linking it, in speaking of what is arrived at. It is pure love, pure motives, there is no corrupting element there, “all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption”.
CJHD Does the fact that the word is difficult of interpretation connect in any way with the work of the Spirit as formed among the saints being in some way inscrutable?
SMcC That is interesting, because we are in a realm of spirituality, and in relation to what is spiritual, we have the word: “but the spiritual discerns all things, and he is discerned of no one”, 1 Corinthians 2: 15. You are always faced with the element of mystery in connection with spirituality, whether in the realm, or in persons.
AWGT Would what you say as to personality in the family be confirmed in the number of references to persons in the epistle to the Colossians, their names being given?
SMcC Yes. It helps us to value one another in that sense. While, according to Luke, some shadow is cast upon Martha, yet according to John she fits into her place in the scene, and it helps us to value one another in the light of the family of God and its spiritual setting with us.
CH Do you mean that the family has arrived at spiritual unity together, especially in relation to Christ?
SMcC That is what one had in mind. While the family brings out personality in individuals, the result arrived at is unity in a realm where Christ is supreme.
JPH In connection with Martha, it just says in chapter 12, that she served.
SMcC It is good to see her as she is in chapter 12. She is not cumbered, she has not got too much on hand that is irritating her spirit, she is not complaining about Mary, nor about Lazarus, she has got the Lord, the Son of God, fully now on her view, and she is absorbed with Him, and she is serving in the liberty that belongs to the family in that light.
AJG So that each one stands out in his own distinctiveness according to the work of God in him.
SMcC It makes the family of God in that sense such an attractive matter, and we need to see it more in this light, and the value of one another. So that in this sense we would be very careful not to write one another down, nor to write one another off. The Lord is standing in relation to each and each is loved by Him.
APCL Would we not also be careful, not to project what comes to light in Judas, the material matter, into such a setting and spoil it?
SMcC That is very interesting. Judas shows that he is not a sheep of Christ; he shows that he has not got the instincts and feelings of the family of God. I mean, if you give things their proper room and place, they will expose themselves, and Judas exposes himself here.
MHT Does Lazarus supply another link with Colossians, in the reference to being dead, and risen with Christ?
SMcC He does, that is the setting that corresponds with Colossians, that the saints are viewed as risen with Him by faith of the working of God; they are risen with Christ in that sense.