SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (5)

SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (5)

John 12: 20 - 33; John 13: 21 - 32; John 14: 15 - 28

SMcC It was thought mainly to consider the section from John 14 to 17, but it came into one’s mind last night, that perhaps we should refer to these sections that we have read from chapters 12 and 13, and then, if the Lord should so will, perhaps John 17 this afternoon. The section in John from chapter 13 to 17, that we come into now, is really the backbone of the subject we are considering in spiritual unity, and in suggesting these passages, the thoughts in mind are to see how we are bound up in the humanity of Christ, first of all, and then how we are bound up together in the affections of Christ. We have the humanity of Christ in regard to the grain of wheat falling into the ground and dying, and the bearing of much fruit, that is the new kind of humanity in which we are together bound up with Christ. Then in John 13, one feels that there is a typical and hidden allusion to the place of the assembly. In view of the degeneration and corruption under the influence of which the assembly has come publicly, it is important that we should see how we are bound up together in the affections of Christ. The fact that the Lord says of John in chapter 21, “If I will that he abide until I come”, is perhaps an indication to us as to certain features that appear in John that would greatly help us in regard to the assembly’s position at the close of the dispensation. There is no doubt a hidden allusion to it typically, in John, as in the bosom, and on the breast of Jesus. Then we should see in chapter 14, how we are bound up together in the life of Christ, as the Lord says, “because I live ye also shall live”; then how we are bound with divine Persons together in a wonderful realm of love and affection. “In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”. The new position is in mind in John 14, in the section that we have read, and particularly the assembly position is in mind. The new position is linked with the Lord going away and the Comforter coming, the Spirit being here; and not only the Spirit coming, but abiding with us, as it says, “he abides with you, and shall be in you”. That is a great steadying touch in regard to whatever may come into the history of the dispensation, because, while the Father and the Son coming to the one that loves Christ is a conditional matter, the Spirit’s abiding with us throughout the dispensation is not a conditional matter. It is His own prerogative act, and it goes right through the dispensation whatever might come in. I thought we might get help in considering these thoughts, especially beginning with how we are bound up in the new kind of humanity that is seen in Jesus, as having gone into death. Lazarus had the experience of going into death, and coming out of death, but he came back into flesh and blood conditions. What subsequently happened to him we do not know, we are not told. Scripture leaves the matter silent as to what occurred with Lazarus afterwards. But he had the experience of going into death and coming out of it through resurrection power, although he came back into flesh and blood conditions. But what we are now considering is different. The Lord, in going into death and coming out of death, did not come back into flesh and blood conditions; He came into a new condition, and in that new condition, this kind of humanity is seen, which stands over against all that is in the world. It is a kind of humanity that we have part in, and that we are bound up together with Him in. As we know, other epistles, like Hebrews 2 and Ephesians,

develop the subject more, but we get the indication in John 12 as to this new kind of humanity in which we are bound up together with Christ.

JPH Is not what you are now saying, about chapter 12, the basis of all our privileges in the assembly? We are of Him.

SMcC Yes, we extend it forward in that way, and take account of Hebrews 2 and Ephesians 5, where there is a link with what we have here, it bears on the service of God. But chapter 12, which might be referred to in a general way, in one sense, is the completing of the Lord’s public service, and we are in the days of the completing of our service and testimony. We are in what we might call the days of our translation; just as the days of the Lord’s receiving up came about, and were fulfilled, so we are in the days of our translation. This passage here is therefore very remarkable as bearing on the climax of the Lord’s public service.

MPS May I ask whether you have anything special in mind in using the word ‘humanity’? We perhaps have been more used to the word ‘manhood’.

SMcC Well, humanity stresses condition. It is the kind of humanity that was seen in Jesus, the condition into which He came, in the days of His flesh. It was flesh and blood, but in resurrection, having gone into death and come out in resurrection, there is a new kind and condition of humanity, and we have part in that condition of humanity. We have no part in the other.

JGM It says in 1 John 3: 2, “and what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”. Does that link with what you are speaking of?

SMcC That alludes to the full thought involving our bodies of glory, and to the fact that we shall be like Christ in our bodies of glory, fully conformed to Him. What we have here is the abstract character of His humanity that answers to the purpose and thought of God eternally.

WCP Does the scripture “as he is, we also are in this world” have any bearing on what you are saying?

SMcC John is referring in that passage to the peculiar place that we are in. He says first of all in the passage that Mr. M. quoted, 1 John 3: 1, “See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God”. And then he goes on to say “what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”. Then he says, “And every one that has this hope in him”, that is in Christ, “purifies himself, even as he is pure”. And then the reference that you make from chapter 4, “as he is, we also are in this world” bears on the unique character of Christianity, that even now, there is that in the assembly, in the saints, which corresponds with Christ - “which thing is true in him and in you”. John’s ministry makes a good deal of that.

- .M. Do we get both sides in 2 Corinthians 5: 16, “but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”?

SMcC There are many scriptures that bear on the subject that is before us here, and in which there is a link with what we are considering, but the main thought that is in one’s mind is that we should get the practical gain of our participating together in this kind of humanity, especially in view of the culmination of things in the dispensation.

JTJr Do you think that the last chapter of Luke’s gospel would be that the Lord came in amongst them to help them in regard to this matter, that they would be of Him? I am referring to Luke 24: 39,

where He says “It is I myself”. And then, “Handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having”.

SMcC So it is important that we should see that we are of Him in that sense, that the humanity that rightly characterises us, in which we have part, is a humanity unknown to the world. It is not the kind of humanity seen amongst the Greeks, nor the kind of humanity in the world, it is the kind of humanity that is linked with the position on the other side of death.

JSE Is that why it necessitates One who is Himself divine to lay this out in such language that there is no mistaking the divine intent as to the saints? It is not left to what we may call an ordinary human minister. Jesus is saying these things Himself, and asserting the fulness of divine thoughts as to the saints being bound up with Him in the way you are indicating.

SMcC I think it is important to see that, because there is no reference to sowing in this matter. Generally the scripture speaks of seed sown, but there is no reference here to the act of another in relation to this matter, it is the Lord’s own act. “Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone”. It does not say it is sown in the ground, it falls into the ground and it dies, and it bears much fruit. Only could that be true of a divine Person in that sense, and the Lord took that way in order that we might have part in this new kind of humanity. We are of Him, the assembly is of Him and out of Him in that sense.

JOTD Is the practical effect of the apprehension of this truth in the Lord’s words in the succeeding verse, verse 25, having in mind that we are to hate our life in this world to keep it to life eternal?

SMcC That is it. We might go over the doctrine of it, and in the ministers that have gone before, how ably the doctrine of it has been laid out. How much was made of this section in F.E.R.’s and J.B.S.’s ministry, and in the later ministry of Mr. Taylor. But one’s concern is not the doctrine of it so much, important as that is, but our practically coming into the gain of it, so that we are in the assembly as we should be, accepting the way of the cross, accepting the way of death. It is death to all that marks the humanity around us, so that we should have part in this kind of humanity in the assembly.

JTJr Does not the Lord’s supper therefore bring about for us, how we get to know Him, and that we are of Him? The Lord’s supper had a great place in the recovery, no doubt the servants that were used found in the Lord’s supper the confirmation themselves of what they had doctrinally.

SMcC Do not you feel in that way, at the present time, that we are tested by the Lord’s supper and how it affects us, because eating enters into it? And then the Lord’s manifestation or disclosure of Himself to us in these conditions is all a test, do you not think, to spirituality with us?

CH Is that why the Spirit of God puts this presentation of the Lord’s humanity over against the Greek?

SMcC That is what I thought. We have to learn to reject utterly and entirely, in our minds and our souls, the kind of humanity that is all around us, especially the Greek character of humanity as it comes in here. That is the kind of humanity that the enemy has exploited, to make much of man’s mind and man’s reasoning in certain things.

CH You mean they represent the best intellectually?

SMcC That is what I had in mind.

WC There is what is religious, too, is there not? The Greeks came up to worship in the feast.

SMcC Just so.

JTJr The thought of death would be a puzzle to the Greeks, and of course the Lord’s supper is the expression of death. It is really the experience of these things every first day of the week that is to help the saints about this new condition.

SMcC So it is very remarkable that the Lord’s supper has really become a test in Christendom. It has been set aside, and the enemy has been in that, because of what we are now referring to; therefore the importance of seeing the death of Christ in this relation. The Lord speaks of it as a matter of parabolic fact, in verse 24, “Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die”, but then, it is not a matter of parabolic fact in verse 27, for the Lord comes to the actuality of it, and the literality of it, when He says, “Now is my soul troubled, and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But on account of this have I come to this hour. Father, glorify thy name”. Surely the Lord has in mind in saying “But on account of this”, the assembly at the present time, and what has come in in result.

ALRT Would you connect this with the reference in Hebrews 2, as to the Sanctifier and the sanctified being all of one?

SMcC That is what we were referring to earlier, when we said that we get the intimation of it here in the Lord’s word, but not the development or opening out of it. But as we go to the epistles, we get in Hebrews 2, and in Ephesians 5, that we are of Christ, and out of Christ; the assembly, in that sense, is of Him and out of Him. That needs to impress our minds more and more, because the issue as to trade unionism and associations has been very practical, and it involves this matter, as to the kind of humanity that we have part in in the assembly.

JSE And on the negative side, have not these associations included in their curriculum, this feature of patronage of Jesus as in flesh, and has not that become one of the subtle features of it? And do we not easily fall a prey to that kind of thing, if we do not, by the Spirit, lay hold of this greater matter that we are bound up with Christ in His humanity in its present setting?

SMcC If we do not get the gain of that, disintegration is bound to come about with us, because separation from evil is always God’s principle of unity. That is why we read the verse as to “I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me”. That is, in this section, we are in the presence of the way of the cross, the way of death, death to the world, and the kind of humanity in it. In Philadelphia we have the complete acceptance of that, and the Lord is pleased with it.

MAW Is that why the practical dealing with associations and what is evil leads to the family of God in 2 Corinthians 6, in the reference to sons and daughters according to God?

SMcC That of course, does not go as far as what we are speaking of here, because it is a figure of speech, as you know, that is employed in that verse. It has to do with the moral side, mixed conditions, sons and daughters, and the Lord Almighty being Father to us. But it is on the way to what we have here.

CMM Would you distinguish between the Luke aspect of the Supper and what is said in Corinthians? In Luke it is “my body which is given for you”, and in Corinthians, “my body, which is for you”. Does that involve this new order of humanity and remind us of it week by week?

SMcC I think it is important to see that. It bears on what Mr. T. was saying in relation to the Lord’s supper, that when the Lord says “which is for you”, He has in mind our appropriation of that. “This is my body, which is for you” has in mind the appropriation, on the part of the saints, of what is conveyed in that.

ECM Is this illustrated in all Israel being assembled to David to Hebron, in 1 Chronicles 11, where they say, “We are thy bone and thy flesh”?

SMcC That would be a typical suggestion of what we have here, that we are of Christ in that sense.

APCL In verse 26 it says twice, “If any one serve me”. It would not be possible to serve in that sense unless we understood what you are saying, would it?

SMcC I think it is important to see how service comes in in that relation. It says “He that loves his life shall lose it, and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal. If any one serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there also shall be my servant”. Well, I think the “where I am” involves just what we are saying. It is the Lord in relation to this new condition of humanity, and His servant is to be there, as refusing the principles of the world and serving Him and following Him.

PHH The Lord seems to bring in His Father a good deal at this point. First of all “Him shall the Father honour”, and then His prayer “Father, save me from this hour”, and “Father, glorify thy name”. Could we have a little help on the Lord bringing the Father into the matter?

SMcC One’s impression has been in these days, that in referring to the ministry that has gone before us, and that has particularly characterised the revival (and we are carrying on now in the light of it in all its distinctiveness), that the Lord is testing us as to where we are practically in regard to the truth conveyed in doctrine as recovered in the revival. The matter therefore of the assembly as of Christ and out of Christ, has a very important bearing on us practically, and then there is the Father’s name. We speak a good deal about the Father’s name and the wonderful way in which the Father is made known, but entering into this setting, it has a practical bearing on our lives as accepting the way of the cross, the way of death.

EJB So would this reference to the Lord’s soul being troubled be a great lever to us to move practically on this line?

SMcC I thought that. The reference to His soul brings in that it is not an academic matter with us. I would guard that expression, for I am not referring to the Lord, I am referring to ourselves, that with us it is not an academic matter; it is a feeling matter, as seen in the Lord, saying, “Now is my soul troubled”.

AJG Does not the Lord indicate that it was a costly matter to Him in order to bring in this new order of humanity in which we are to have part?

SMcC And are we not to be affected by that, that it was a costly matter to Him?

EJM Would you mind amplifying what you had in mind in referring to the assembly in verse 27 in connection with the expression “on account of this”?

SMcC “But on account of this have I come to this hour. Father, glorify thy name”. The Lord is thinking of what would be involved in the Father’s name as it stands out in this way, and especially what is reached in the assembly in regard to it.

MHT Would the references in Leviticus 2 to the oblation of thy first-fruits, and in Leviticus 23 to the new oblation, help us to understand what you are bringing out as to the humanity of Christ and our part with Him in that order of manhood?

SMcC Are you linking the new oblation with what we have in John 12?

MHT Yes. In Leviticus 23, it is what is brought out of our houses.

SMcC You would not link that with John 12, would you?

MHT I only felt there was a link between the manhood of Christ as seen personally in chapter 2, and the new oblation. Leviticus 23, which refers to Pentecost typically, as linking us with Him in that humanity.

SMcC Well, now that you have brought it up, it is perhaps good to see the difference. It is not exactly that they are the same, because they are not. I mean, the new oblation is different from what we have here, because what we are speaking of in John 12 is a sinless order of humanity. What you have in the new oblation is not a sinless order of humanity, for the leaven is there, and in Acts 2 the leaven was there, but rendered inactive by the fire. There is no need for the fire in this kind of humanity that is out of Christ that we are referring to in John 12.

JSE It is all of itself.

SMcC Just so. It is good to see the contrast, that what is referred to in Leviticus 23 is the kind of humanity that bears on the scene of testimony, where persons are in mixed conditions, but in John 12, and Hebrews 2, and Ephesians 5, it is not contemplating mixed conditions, but the pure, sinless conditions that we have part in as bound up with Christ in it. Is that clear? Do you go with that?

MHT Yes, fully.

LGB Is not this an incorruptible order of humanity?

SMcC That is what was meant in using the other word - ‘sinless’.

GRC Would you say a word as to why Philip’s locality is mentioned, “who was of Bethsaida of Galilee”, and why he tells Andrew, and they come and tell Jesus? I wondered how this truth bore on the testimonial setting.

SMcC I think it bears in its testimonial setting in the sense that as in our souls we are in the apprehension of being bound up with Christ in this kind of humanity, we reject entirely the features of the other kind of humanity, and that is seen in our practical walk and life before men. Instead of being men that depend on their mental ability, or men that depend on their natural resources, we have accepted the way of the cross, and the way of death, that leads into this new kind of humanity. What would you say yourself?

GRC I was thinking that. The fact that Philip’s locality is mentioned seems to have a bearing, and then what we should have in mind in our evangelical activities, and in answering enquiries, such as “Sir, we desire to see Jesus”. I wondered whether it would adjust popular evangelisation and so on.

SMcC I think what you say is very important, as to whether the way of the cross, and the way of death, as it appears in this chapter, really enters into and characterises our preaching, and our approach to men. Otherwise, we shall make something of the wrong man, and the result that will be produced will be linked with the wrong man, do not you think?

GRC That is what I was wondering, whether this would help us in evangelical ideas.

SMcC I am sure it would, and it helps us in our practical affairs in life, in hating our life in this world. As has often been said, the Greeks would not hate their life in this world, why it was just their life, you know, to reason and philosophise about things. To put things into philosophy, that was their life. We learn to hate that kind of thing, as having part in the humanity of Christ.

WD Is that seen in Acts 4: 13, “But seeing the boldness of Peter and John, and perceiving that they were unlettered and uninstructed men, they wondered; and they recognised them that they were with Jesus”?

SMcC I suppose the practical effects of it were seen in their lives. We really have to come to Paul’s ministry for the opening up of the doctrine of this, specially Colossians and Ephesians. But, as has often been noticed, before the doctrine is formally unfolded, we have it seen in suggestion in certain things in the beginning of the Acts. Like the body, for instance, we have “Why dost thou persecute me?” That comes in before the doctrine of the body is brought in through Paul.

JSE Is there something peculiarly lovely and attractive in the fact that Jesus can address Himself to two men who are to be part of this much fruit? Does it help us to see that He is delighted with the prospect Himself of having men bound up with Him in this new kind of humanity?

SMcC I think so, especially taking account of the fact that they were Galilean men. I mean, they were men that would be written off in the world as of little or no account - men of poor capacity and the like.

JMcK Would you say a word as to “Where I am”? It is an expression that the Lord uses more than once, subsequent to this passage. Is this a kind of basic idea for all that is to follow in the way of privilege?

SMcC I think it is. It is mentioned about four times, maybe more, in this section we are reading; the “where I am” would specially bear upon the testimonial position, and matters that arise. Well, it is a great thing to be where the Lord is, in all these matters.

JMcK That would imply dignity and elevation; the idea of lifted up comes into the section, does it not?

SMcC It does. It is the way out of the world. That is what is being stressed in John’s ministry, the way out of the world in the acceptance of death.

PHH Is that what is meant in the judgment of this world? It says, “Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out”. Is that a reference to the power of His death, and the beginning of a new order of humanity in another world?

SMcC I thought so. And in the light of that we want to get out of the world, do we not?

PHH Yes, exactly. Do the saints therefore, as being after the order of Christ’s humanity, become testimony in the world?

SMcC They do.

JG Is this the answer to Joseph’s sheaf, in Genesis 37, “my sheaf rose up, and remained standing”. Is there a link there?

SMcC Well, we have I suppose in the type a suggestion of it. It is the kind of humanity that could stand the test, and we are all in the testing period, and we are all being as it were, tested, and the question is as to whether we shall stand up to the test. Joseph stood up to the test, whether in the house of Potiphar, or whether it was in prison, or whether it was among his brethren, he stood up to the test.

RWS The expression in verse 25, “shall keep it to life eternal”, just what is involved in that, please?

SMcC That is a very interesting reference, because I suppose we are to take account of how the it merges into life eternal. It says, “He that loves his life shall lose it, and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal”. That is, as before God, it is a question of how we hold our lives, and whether we hold them in relation to this world, or whether we hate them in relation to this world, but keep them to life eternal. It is a question of the value of things before God in that sense, the ‘it’ being an abstract allusion to life in its value before God, and whether we allow the world to lay hold of it, or whether we keep it to life eternal.

JM In the first reference to the death of the Lord here, it is the grain of wheat falling into the ground - He goes down out of sight. But in the second one He is lifted up, a public spectacle, signifying by what death he was about to die. Is there something instructive in that?

SMcC It shows the two sides of the truth. In the one side there is the secret mysterious side, known in the assembly, that we are bound up with one another in this order of humanity that is altogether new. But then, on the public side, there is the lifting up; it is the testimony to the judgment of the world, and the judgment of the prince of the world; and then that becomes the centre of attraction.

AH When the Greek element is seeking to invade the assembly at Corinth, Paul speaks like this, does he not? He says, Greeks seek wisdom, and so forth, but we preach Christ crucified.

SMcC Just so; Paul had to take issue with it. The cross, you see, has to do with that, although the cross in Corinthians seems to bear on the lascivious side of man, and his practises. When you come to Colossians, the cross and circumcision bear more on the refined kind of man, the polished man, the philosophical mind, that we have to be delivered from.

AEM I wonder how many of us hate our life in this world. It is a very strong expression and tests us all.

SMcC I think we should face it. It is a very practical matter as to whether we have sat down and calculated and arrived at this matter of hating our life in this world.

TJG In similar statements in Matthew and Mark, the Lord refers to finding, or seeking to save, and so on; but here in John, the deep-seated emotions of the believer are referred to, hating or loving.

SMcC It shows how intense the matter is. Hatred is an activity of love, in that sense.

EEH Would you say a word on this expression, “The hour is come that the Son of man should be glorified”? It is mentioned in this chapter as well as in chapter 13.

SMcC I think it is important to see how that is. We should go on to chapter 13, to see how the way that is indicated in the teaching of the Lord in these sections makes way for the glorification of the Son of man. The world to come is moved on to our view, and there is a very intimate link between the world to come and the assembly at the present moment in that sense. We do not have to wait till the public day of glory to see the Lord as He is to be seen as glorified. There is a sphere in the assembly now where God glorifies Christ immediately.

AJG So that chapter 12 deals with what is future and public, but chapter 13 is that He is glorified in a moral sense, and glorified in the affections of the assembly?

SMcC That is it. The last expression in verse 32 “and shall glorify him immediately” shows that God has a realm in the assembly in which Christ is honoured in that way, immediately. It is not deferred, it is not put off for the millennium, or the world to come, it is immediate in the assembly.

AW Why is it the Son of man that is glorified here?

SMcC I think it is to expand the view of the disciples beyond Judaism. Judaism, in this realm of things, has no part; it is entirely outside - it adds nothing to Christ. The Son of man has a reference to His position universally in connection with man.

WSS In connection with verses 31 and 32, Mr. Darby has a note that the word is literally ‘has been’, as though the matter is looked upon as having been accomplished. Would that have a bearing on what you were saying about the Lord being glorified at the present time in the midst of the assembly?

SMcC The ‘has been’ in that sense is the cross. “Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is (or literally ‘has been’) glorified in him”, that is the cross, the death of Christ, where every moral issue has been resolved and God glorified in the resolving of it. That glorification is in the death of Christ. Then “If God be glorified in him, God also shall glorify him in himself” is Deity, involving John 17: 5; and then “shall glorify him immediately” is the great realm in the assembly where glory is not deferred, but Christ has glory in an immediate way.

WSS I was thinking of the remarkable fact that when Judas went out, the Lord speaks as if the matter is accomplished.

SMcC Just so. This whole section is dealing with an out-of-the-world condition, for the Lord is going to the Father. He is drawing near, and He speaks, without referring to the actual matter of death, as on that way, and out of the world.

WC Is verse 27 of chapter 12 an allusion to Gethsemane in that connection, the Lord going through all this with His God and Father beforehand? He says, “Now is my soul troubled, and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But on account of this have I come to this hour. Father, glorify thy name”. It seems to be akin to Gethsemane, does it not?

SMcC It is very striking that it comes in early in John. I mean there is something to note in that, because the section that we have read from in chapter 13 and then chapter 14, really deals with the section of the Lord’s supper. But the instructions in chapter 14, as Mr. Darby points out, must have occurred between the singing of the hymn, and the going out, just before they went out to the mount of Olives, just at that juncture.

JSE Would you be free just to go over those three salient points you stated just now? I am sure it would be well if we could all get hold of that.

SMcC You mean as to the glorification of the Son of man? Well, I am not saying anything new, I am only saying what I have been taught, what the rest of us have been taught. In verse 31, “Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him”, that has to do with the cross and the death of Christ; it has not to do with Him at the right hand of God, it has to do with the cross, and the death of Christ. Then verse 32, “If God be glorified in him, God also shall glorify him in himself”, that is, glorify Him in God, in Deity, and that involves John 17: 5, the glory that He had along with the Father before the world was. But then “shall glorify him immediately” brings in the Spirit here, and the assembly formed, and a realm in which Christ is glorified.

CK Would you think that the position that John takes up as suggestive of the assembly as you have said, in the bosom and on the breast, would have that in view?

SMcC I think it makes way for it. Where you get an active state of love, or a passive state of love among the brethren, as suggested here, it makes way for the opening up of the truth as to the Person of Christ. So that Ephesians is on that line.

JM In chapter 16 it says of the Spirit, “He shall glorify me”. That would be in the assembly now.

SMcC Just so.

JTJr We cannot overlook the fact here (verse 21), that “Jesus was troubled in spirit”.

SMcC I think this section is very important in that relation. But we would be glad to get any help as to what you were thinking of now.

JTJr Well, the trouble in the previous chapter,

you note, was in regard to what was immediately before Him, His death; but this trouble was in regard to conditions amongst the twelve.

SMcC This is very important. It is not the Greeks coming up from the outside, it is what was in, as you might say, the bosom of the assembly. It is the terribleness of what is inside, “one of you shall deliver me up”. That is a very sobering and testing matter, because the Lord is laying it on the disciples, in this sense.

PHH Would the disciple leaning on the breast of Jesus be the support in view of that condition of things?

SMcC I thought so. I thought it was the assembly as bound up with Christ in this great matter of affection that becomes a means of salvation in regard to this awful element. Mr. Darby said once, in connection with this kind of thing, and referring to the statement of men that the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the church, that the church was victorious when the opposition was from without, in relation to martyrdom; but when the opposition arose from within, in defection and degeneration, what was within succumbed to the power of the enemy - a humbling thing in the dispensation.

RGB Is that why the love of Christ is referred to peculiarly in this chapter? At the beginning it says “having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end”, and then immediately, you get the reference to the devil. Is the experience of the love of Christ peculiarly needed to sustain us in such circumstances, and help us to be victorious?

SMcC That is what one is thinking about in suggesting this passage. We need to rely more on the support of the love of Christ in the assembly, in meeting this kind of thing. Association thus with an evil principle, if it is in a person or otherwise, is far more likely to overcome us than bitter opposition from without. Judas represents association with evil on the inside. It is “one of you”.

PHH So in chapter 21 the bosom is not mentioned; it says “who also leaned at supper on his breast”, verse 20. It is just the support of the love of Christ in that setting.

SMcC Exactly. The breast is interesting in that way, and the support that it affords, for it is the framework.

AJG I was just going to refer to that incident in chapter 21. The Lord told Peter to follow Him, and he immediately turns, but as he turns he sees the disciple whom Jesus loved following, and then it says, “who also leaned at supper on his breast, and said, Lord, who is it that delivers thee up?” The Spirit of God makes much of this fact of John leaning on the breast of Jesus, as being able to face the terrible condition that the Lord indicated in relation to Judas.

SMcC Do not you feel it is very important that if the spirit of betrayal is to be met, it can only be met, as it were, in this kind of environment, where the brethren are bound up together with Christ, in the enjoyment of His affections, as typified in John? The Lord had indicated the matter to them earlier, but apparently here they did not realise it; they did not realise the seriousness of it. The disciples therefore looked one on another, doubting of whom He spoke, and yet He had indicated to them earlier what was among them.

CH Are we not therefore to be intelligent as to the progression of evil, as well as the Lord’s progression in the thoughts of God? It says earlier, that Satan put it into the heart of Judas, but now Satan entered into him. Is that more active? There are many things that may come into our minds, and in the light of the cross we can judge them, but if they are not judged, do they make way for Satan himself?

SMcC That is a very solemn matter, and certainly should affect us in that sense, that Satan finds a door in the heart of Judas through which he can enter to betray Christ, and every action against the truth is in principle a betrayal of Christ. We want to see that.

CH Peter says to Ananias in Acts 5, “why has Satan filled thy heart?” There had been collusion in evil, and that makes way for Satan filling the heart.

SMcC Satan gets a peculiar advantage through collusion in that way, to attack the economy, and what the assembly is in relation to it.

CH There had been collusion here with Judas and those outside?

SMcC Just so.

ECR The Lord was saying in chapter 12 that His soul was troubled, but in chapter 13 that He was troubled in spirit, as though the matter is intensified.

SMcC Just so. And the reference to the spirit is very interesting, because it is Himself, you see; the Lord was the spirit of His own body. We have a spirit, of course, but it is different with us, the Lord was the spirit of His own body, and the spirit is Himself. He was troubled in spirit, because the whole assault of the enemy in the betrayal is on Christ.

TJG Does the fact that the disciples were unaware of the betrayer indicate the alarming fact of the terrible deception that must have been going on with Judas amongst the disciples?

SMcC I think it is a salutary word for every one of us. I feel it is for myself, that unless the spirit of self-judgment is maintained thoroughly in your heart, it will open a door for Satan to move against Christ and the assembly.

JTJr The Lord was feeling things in His spirit, it says, “Jesus was troubled in spirit”. It is therefore a question now of the spirits of the brethren, a question of what you might feel. The Lord knew, of course, and He said, “one of you shall deliver me up”, but He did not act on it, I mean to say, you might know a thing in your spirit, that it is not right.

SMcC I think it is very important that the Lord knew about it all the time, but then He waited for the overt act. An overt act came in in which Judas was fully exposed, but the Lord had a judgment as to him all the way through. And we are to be concerned as to the nearness to Christ, as in the bosom and on the breast of Jesus, that we should have a judgment as to things, do you not think?

JTJr “What thou doest”, He says, “do quickly”. That is, there was the doing of the thing, “What thou doest, do quickly”. That is, the Lord is really allowing a person to do something that brings out what the thing is.

SMcC And that is important to see. We do not go into the divine province of the heart of man, for God is the heart-knowing God. We do not go in there and read what is in there; we take account of what comes into operation, what is done, and what appears, what was in the Lord’s mind in telling Judas to do the thing.

AJG Do you think it was encouraging in that sense that the Lord is in complete control of the evil as well as the good, so that He can tell Judas to do it?

SMcC I think it is an anchor for our souls, that we can count on the Lord, as we are with Him, as suggested in John. We might thus be helped in meeting this kind of thing, which is all around and which comes into the very bosom of the assembly as in this 13th chapter of John.

AWGT Because it was not merely a deception, it was an overt attack. The word Satan being used, means the adversary, is that right?

SMcC Just so.

PL In that sense, the Lord peremptorily addresses Satan, does He not, in Judas? In a certain sense He says no more to Judas, though of course Satan is in Judas. Now the Lord is tracing the thing to its origin, do you think?

SMcC Yes. It is a remarkable thing in that relation that when it was Peter, and what Peter said, the Lord said “Get thee behind me, Satan”, but the Lord never said that to Judas. There is an interesting point there, for the Lord allowed the matter to work out with Judas until the thing covered the man entirely, and the Lord says, “What thou doest do quickly”.

Ques Is there a difference between the two questions? In Matthew you get what appears to be on the side of conscience, “Is it I, Lord?”But here, it seems to be a question of intimacy, “Lord, who is it?”

SMcC I think it is important to see that the Lord begins with saying “one of you”. That is. Judas had part with the twelve; he was one of the twelve, and the Lord is emphasising that, “one of you”. Then the answer to the question comes through the one who is in the place of intimacy and nearness, he says, “Lord, who is it?” as if to say, Who could it be that would be guilty of such a dastardly act?

HJP What is the significance of the Lord dipping the morsel and then giving it to Judas?

SMcC I think it is to show us the dispensation of grace. Judas could not say that he did not have every advantage, neither could Saul, in the Old Testament. He was given every advantage, for the Lord must have washed the feet of Judas. Think of it, washing the feet of Judas! What must have been in the Lord’s mind as He washed the feet of Judas. But there it was. The Lord gave him every advantage to repent, and to judge things, but of course, Judas did not.

MAW Would this help us to understand why John says of the Lord “full of grace and truth”?

SMcC Yes. Now we should have a word as to John 14, as to the new position, and how we are bound up with Christ in this matter of life, and bound up by the Spirit with divine Persons in this wonderful unity of love, this oneness in affection that comes on to view in verse 20. But the reference to the Spirit in this section, bringing on the new footing on which things were to be, and in which things are now, is very important, because it is an assembly footing. Even if it comes down to “If any one love me”, the whole section and context is dealing with the presence of the Spirit and the truth established on an assembly basis and footing.

GRC Is that why the importance of knowing the Comforter is stressed by the Lord? He says, “ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you”.

SMcC It is important that we should know the Spirit, and that we should understand what the Lord says here in that relation, “for he abides with you, and shall be in you”. He said earlier “that he may be with you for ever”. The Spirit thus goes through in the dispensation, and the assembly goes through in the dispensation. Whatever may have come in, publicly, we see here the great side of mystery in the presence of the Spirit in the assembly going all the way through. It is not just what is conditional, but “he abides with you, and shall be in you” is from His own side.

PHH Do you mean that in the later verse, verse 23, “if any one love me, he will keep my word”, that has an assembly connection? Is that what I understood you to say?

SMcC Exactly. It is like Matthew 18 - “If two of you”. It is not just two persons, it is two persons on an assembly footing, two persons of assembly quality. And when the Lord says here “if any one love me” it is in this environment and context where the Spirit is viewed as having come in and things on this new basis.

AJG So that verse 20 gives us what is knowable, what is to be known, in the day of the Spirit in the assembly, and then verses 21 - 23 give us the conditions under which they will be actually realised, having in view what has come in in Christendom?

SMcC That is very important, subjection to the commandments.

AJG First keeping His commandments, and then keeping His word.

SMcC Just so. Obedience in that sense is the great test at the present time.

AH Is the reference to the word “Judas, not the Iscariot” to be understood in the eradication of the principle that the Lord had exposed?

SMcC No doubt it has.

WF The Lord says to Philadelphia, “Thou hast kept my word”. Does that show what is possible in the abiding presence of the Spirit here?

SMcC I think it does. I think we have in Philadelphia a state of things in which this part of the truth is arrived at, and seen. In Philadelphia we have believers that have returned to the truth of the assembly, as it is in the mind of Christ, and they are not only standing in it, but they are marked by the practice of the truth that is proper to it.

EEH Would you open up a little what is meant by “because I live ye also shall live”?

SMcC I think it is to bring out this matter of contact with Christ, that in life it is not just a matter of doctrine. We have the doctrine of life unfolded all the way through, but it is a matter here of our association with Christ, and that we are bound up with Him in life, and that stands over against all that is around.

RGB Is there any link with what is said in Colossians 3, “your life is hid with the Christ in God”?

SMcC Yes, I think it involves that Christ is our life, and our life is bound up with the Person thus apprehended and known, in relation to glory. Then “in that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”. How could that be possible apart from the Spirit? As Mr. Taylor referred to it in the latter part of his days, it is the great binding power of the Spirit, that we are bound up together with one another by the Spirit. The Spirit is the binding power. And divine Persons in the economy, in the divine arrangement are bound up together by the Spirit, and we are bound up with divine Persons in the arrangement by the Spirit. The Spirit is the great Fulcrum in the truth in this section.

APB In verse 19 the Lord says “but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live”. Does that confirm what you were saying, that it is not just a matter of doctrine, but by the Spirit’s power and presence, seeing the Lord in His movements and in His active life, that we live?

SMcC Yes, it opens up the great spiritual realm, and our participation in life, and our being bound up in life in one another and with Christ by the Spirit in it.

JTJr It is like Moses, God showed him the whole land. He showed him everything from that point of view. I suppose in this section in John the whole land is ahead of us?

SMcC Very good. You get the expression “all the truth” coming in later. The whole land would be like that; it is not just part of it. That would help us, so that whatever defection comes in, we have the whole truth in mind, and nothing but the whole truth.