THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRIT HERE
THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRIT HERE
FER Everything hangs upon the presence of the Spirit here — that is, on the truth that God is dwelling here. The Romanist makes everything hang upon the Church, and the Protestant hangs everything upon the letter of Scripture, but neither one nor the other is really the truth; neither the idea of the Romanist nor of the Protestant, but the truth really is that everything hangs upon the presence of the Spirit. “The Spirit is the truth” that is what it says; and what we want to be conscious of is the presence of the Spirit down here, that all the light of God — the light of the Father and the Son, really lies for us in the work of the Spirit. It is there that you get the truth. Of course we have in the Scriptures a great safeguard, it is the letter and form of the truth, but the Spirit is the truth.
DLH When the apostle speaks to Timothy of the “Outline of sound words” — does he refer do you think, to the general outline of the Scriptures?
FER Well it took that shape eventually. I think God has given that protection to us, when things fell into decay in the church, then He saw fit to give His people the protection of the Scriptures. He put things into that shape.
DLH So that we have them to fall back upon when things are put to the test?
FER Exactly; Scripture is the great safeguard. And they carry authority too. But then when you see the use that has been made of them — you can see it pretty much in the Protestantism of the present day — they boast of having the Word of God, and all that, and yet the way such are described in Scripture is that they have “a name that thou livest, and art dead”.
I think what you get in all these chapters is the Spirit’s [p. 88] coming to the saints in the interests of Christ. But the special point here, or a very important point in the chapter is that the presence of the Spirit connects itself with the saints. It is not the idea of the Spirit dwelling here independently of the saints, but in connection with them. Christ had paved the way for the Spirit to dwell, and He says to them “He shall be in you”.
DLH It is of immense importance that we should bear in mind that there is a divine Person on the earth just as truly now, as when the Lord Jesus was here?
FER I think so, and that just as everything centred in Him when He was here, now everything centres in the Spirit; and there is nothing for God now, that is outside of the Spirit. It is perfectly certain that a vast deal of christendom, that takes the name of Christ, is entirely outside of the Spirit.
FS You said just now that the truth was a protection — in what way did you mean?
FER The Scriptures are a protection; you see the Spirit of God cannot go against the Scriptures, and so you have in them a test of everything. If you find the Scriptures contravened, you may be pretty sure that that is not of the Spirit of God.
Rem “The Scripture cannot be broken”.
FER Yes, that is the principle. We have to depend on the Spirit of truth, that is the great point that comes out in this chapter. I think Popery has put the church in the place of the Spirit, but Protestantism ignores the presence of the Spirit entirely, but where we get back to what was from the beginning, everything hangs upon the presence of the Spirit.
DLH I suppose there is nothing in us, that is of any account whatever but what is of the Spirit.
FER I don’t think so.
DLH And if everything was eliminated from us but what is of the Spirit there would not be much left?
FER Well perhaps not — but it is an immense comfort to think that there is the work of the Spirit here.
[p. 89] And what He has wrought is the substance of the truth ...
SH Is that the way in which He is the Comforter?
FER Yes, I think so; He is the Patron.
I think the Lord counted upon their affection; He counted upon what had really been wrought in them, because undoubtedly they had affection for Him, whatever else they lacked.
HCA Was the affection the fruit of His own work, it was before the Spirit was given?
FER It has very often been said that while the Lord was here, He did a great deal which is now the work of the Spirit.
DLH Though it would appear that the disciples were unable to understand it until in resurrection it says, “Then opened He their understanding”.
FER Yes, but what A — was referring to, was that when He was here He maintained them in a certain amount of affection.
HCA I was thinking you get the love here before you get the Spirit.
FER Yes; and so in this same gospel the Lord can say, “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken to you”.
GB It is by the Spirit that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts now?
FER Yes, but Christ was the living expression in the world of the love of God.
GB And there was a divine work in their souls which made them appreciate it?
FER Yes, He came out to reveal the love of God, and undoubtedly the hearts of men were touched by it.
GB And everything is built upon that, as it was in the case of Peter when he said, “Thou art ... the Son of the living God”?
FER Yes, Peter was touched, the Father had drawn him to Christ.
GB Though Peter might not have been [p. 90] able to explain in the least what he meant?
FER No, but one could not doubt for a moment the real affection which the disciples had for the Lord. I do not think even Peter’s denial of the Lord would gainsay that; he came under very great pressure, and he was unequal to it, and he fell.
SH None but a divine Person could maintain, or beget love.
FER No, quite so.
DLH Well that is one great point in connection with the Spirit, that He is the truth.
FER Quite so. Now if you were asked where the truth is at this moment what answer would you give?
DLH I should say in the Spirit.
FER But I would go further than that, I would say in the Spirit and in the body.
DLH Because the Spirit dwells in the body?
FER Quite so; and you cannot separate entirely from the Spirit, what the Spirit has wrought. It would be very hard for us to distinguish. God can distinguish of course, but for us it would be extremely difficult. You get such an expression as this for instance, “If Christ is in you, ... the Spirit is life”, that shows you how intimate the connection is between the Spirit and what the Spirit has wrought.
GB Would you say with regard to those drawn to the Lord that it was the work of the Spirit, or of the Lord?
FER Well the Father was active in it; and Christ was the point of attraction, the point to which the Father drew. I think you may get light in a kind of way, and yet for all that be outside the work of the Spirit. There may be a kind of work, but it is not quite what I should speak of as [p. 91] the work of the Spirit of God. The work of the Spirit comes in to make us in accord with the light, to form us according to the light. I think there is a very great deal of light and intelligence which is quite beyond the work of the Spirit, it is a long way beyond the real work of the Spirit I should say.
HCA And yet the individual is only in the good of the light in as far as it is made good in him?
FER Yes, that is all. Now what do you minister? Do you minister your knowledge of Scripture, or what you KNOW.
K A man cannot minister more than he knows.
FER Well I think I have often ministered my knowledge of the Scriptures, and I suspect I am not very different to other people; but now I am much more disposed to limit my ministry to what I know. I do not think I am at all perfect in that way now, but that is the line I have more before me, in any little ministry I may do. Not simply to minister from one’s knowledge of Scripture, but from what I really know.
Ques What do you mean by “know”?
FER What I know by the Spirit of God. I think there is a long gap between what I know from Scripture, as to the form of the truth and so on, and what I really know, by the Spirit’s work — as divinely taught.
Ques Is not that what we are conscious of by the Spirit?
FER Yes, it is yourself, in a certain sense.
K It is what “a man hath”.
FER Quite so. You see all the latter part of this chapter gives you really the reality of christianity; in connection with the Comforter you get the whole light of divine revelation, the Father and the Son. It is a wonderful chapter; I am sure one sees how precious it is — as to the statements in the latter part of the chapter; all that is in the world and the power of the world, is as nothing compared to what you get in the end of this chapter. The Lord says even as to the individual, “I will manifest myself to him”, then again later on, “My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our abode with him”.
Rem And that is individual?
FER Well those particular statements [p. 92] are individual.
DLH So that the saints are rendered independent of the world through which they are passing.
FER Yes, quite so.
GB And that is the idea isn’t it, in chapter 14?
FER Yes I think so. And that all hangs on the presence of the Spirit. Christ manifests Himself to one, and the Father and the Son making Their continuance with him — you could never get that except by the Spirit. The letter will never give that to you. That just brings us back to the very great importance of recognising the presence of God by the Spirit. God is dwelling here by the Spirit, and we have to see to it that our ways are in accordance with that, that our ways are ordered according to the presence of God. Then there is another thing connected with it, and that is “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace;” the first thing is accepting the presence of the Spirit here; and the next thing is you are endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit, and no one will touch the truth of the assembly if they are not endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit.
GB And is not the presence of the Spirit a fundamental part of the gospel as bringing in the kingdom? Have we not been weak in preaching the kingdom?
FER Well, if God is here, you have got the house. If He dwells here it must be in the house. It is not like Christ being incarnate here, if God dwells now, it is in the house.
I have been much interested with what comes out in Luke 13 and the few following chapters as to the house. In chapter 13 you have their house is left unto them desolate, and in the few succeeding chapters you find Christ outside Jerusalem. But then in chapter 14 you have a house, and chapter 15 also, brings in a house; and in chapter 16 you get “everlasting habitations”. In chapter 14 it is said “Compel them to come in that my house may be filled;” and in chapter 15 the elder brother drawing nigh to the house hears the sound of [p. 93] music and dancing; then in chapter 16 it is, that ye may be received “into everlasting habitations”. The idea of the house really runs through all those chapters.
DLH The temple and Jerusalem was “Your house”, but God’s house was continued in another way.
FER Yes, the everlasting habitations may refer to what is beyond, but the house in the fourteenth and fifteenth chapters refers to what is down here now.
JJ Does not the thought of the house involve intimacy?
FER I think so; the house is the scene of love — that is the idea to me — the scene of love into which Christ has been received, and in which Christ is. It is a moral idea to me.
GB If you speak of my house, or of your house, it conveys more than the idea of the mere shell.
FER Yes, quite so. You see in chapter 14 God will have people compelled to come into the scene of holy love, and into all that prevails there.
GB Where the Father’s joys are in exhibition.
FER Yes, you get the celebration of righteousness in the scene of love.
HCA The coming of the Holy Spirit was God taking possession of His house?
FER Yes, the work of Christ had been preparatory; He had prepared the company to which the Spirit would come.
Ques Is “endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit” the house aspect?
FER Yes, and if you fail in that obligation, depend upon it you will not get beyond. No one will really touch the truth of the assembly, if they disregard the obligation to keep the unity of the Spirit.
GB How would that come out practically, in refusing to sanction flesh?
FER Yes, or any links at all after the flesh. You see if a man sanctions any working of will, or lust, and fails to walk in self-judgment, he is not endeavouring to keep [p. 94] the unity of the Spirit. People come and bring in disturbing elements, even on the plea of service, but that is not endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace! Suppose a man comes along sowing discord and disturbance in every place he comes to, how has that man got his feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace? It is a mockery of it. You have to begin with what comes out in the earlier part of Ephesians 4, with “lowliness and meekness”, I have no doubt at all that that is what we want, lowliness and meekness.
Rem Not conforming others to our will?
FER No, but learning of Christ, coming to Christ to learn of Him, as He says for “I am meek and lowly in heart”, you take up the service of love.
HCA I suppose in that way the disciples were prepared for the coming of the Holy Spirit?
FER Yes; they had learned of Christ. Now as to that in Matthew 11, I think that Christ relieves you of one burden, but then He puts another upon you; He relieves you of the burden of legality, and He puts upon you, the burden of love — the yoke of love. It is “bear ye one another’s burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ”.
GB And you need moral likeness to Him, to do it?
FER I think so. You have got to learn of Him — “Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart”. I think we have all got to accept that our pathway down here is to be the service of love. Christ has made the love of God a reality to us, and now what we are to be taken up with is the service of love.
HCA The Spirit helps us on these lines.
FER Yes, and the effect of that is that you avoid anything that tends to bring discord in. A man who is seeking to serve in love will be very careful not to bring anything in that will tend to discord.
That, I think is the first obligation that follows on the [p. 95] acceptance of the presence of the Spirit; you are endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit, and then you really come to the truth of the assembly; you begin to apprehend the truth of the body.
DLH So that the fact is that the love which was brought down here by the Lord Jesus Christ into this world, was not taken away, but left here?
FER Yes. The end of Matthew 11 is extremely beautiful in that way, it all follows on the revelation of the Father — “Neither knoweth any man the Father save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him”, then He says, “Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” — I will take your burden from off you, and I will put you in the presence of the Father’s love. Then the next verse is, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, ... and ye shall find rest unto your souls”, — that is the service of love.
Rem “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another”.
FER Yes, you bear one another’s burdens, and in that way fulfil the law of Christ.
DLH Do you connect the service of love with endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit?
FER Well I take it up with the expression “lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love”, — that is the service of love pretty much. The apostle says, “By love serve one another”, Now suppose we are all bent upon doing that, do you think we should get all sorts of discord coming in? Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit would come as natural as possible.
HCA And the Spirit is the power which continues the work here?
FER Yes, I think so. The beginning of it is the love of God shed abroad in the heart, because it is the purpose and intention of Christ to bring our hearts into the knowledge of the love of God. Then when we [p. 96] accept the presence of the spirit, we recognise our obligation to keep the unity of the Spirit; and then He leads us into the truth of the worshipping company — the truth of the assembly. People think, I do believe, that because they come together on the Lord’s day morning, that they are in the truth of the assembly; but it is quite possible for them to be there, and yet not in the truth of the assembly one single bit. Of course when I speak of the assembly, I speak of it in its own proper character, as for God. As risen together with Christ, and quickened, you are in the condition for priestly service, as led by Christ. It is not simply a meeting of believers, but that which the Holy Spirit has wrought to be in accordance with Christ, so that there may be the service of God according to His mind. I think it is as evident as possible that if God is to be worshipped, He must be worshipped according to His own mind — according to the order which He Himself has laid down. If you think of the way in which services are carried out in cathedrals and those places today, it is man worshipping God as he thinks best, but it is not according to the order of God. Man thinks he will devote his best to God, but that is like Cain. It is a curious thing that before the fall, you do not find that man worshipped God. There is no record of it at all; you nowhere read of man approaching God before the fall came in. Well now that man is fallen, it is a clear case that if he desires to approach God, it must be according to the order which God Himself lays down. To approach God according to man’s own will, is the most wicked thing that can be. God must be worshipped as He Himself sees fit to order, nothing can be more certain than that. I should think that one of the most offensive things that can he conceived in the presence of God, is the way in which things are done in some of the cathedrals, where the mass of people are perfectly delighted! It is just about as offensive in the eye of God as anything could be.
DLH I think there is a good deal of danger among [p. 97] ourselves too, of a kind of imitation of what is of God, coming in. There is an imitation of worship, of which we are in a good bit of danger I fancy.
FER Well I like people to be simple in that way, and to express what they can express; but at the same time, I should like them to go on and to get an idea of the assembly. But I would never wish to see them go beyond what they really know; I would like them to be simple in the part they take.
DLH Well but there is that danger.
FER Yes, perhaps, but I would like to hear people take any simple part in the meeting, rather than attempt what is entirely beyond them.
HCA Does not this take up the three circles which follow upon endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit?
FER Well I think they come in to accentuate the unity of the Spirit; they are not the ground of it, but brought in to accentuate it. If we entered into the reality of these things they would be very great incentives to us to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace.
HCA People say a great deal about the Spirit in the assembly, but probably it is a little forgotten that the Spirit has His place in a man’s own house, and in his associations in the world.
FER Yes. In this chapter the great point in connection with the presence of the Spirit is comfort; the Lord looks upon them as about to be bereaved of His own presence, and the great point that comes out in the chapter is comfort; and the comfort that we have here is the great point for us now. My own impression is that there is the greatest comfort possible in this chapter. Things do go so dreadfully crooked down here in the world — christendom and all that, the state of things is appalling; but the great comfort for our hearts is that God is dwelling here by the Spirit — the Comforter is here. And then too you get the presence here of the [p. 98] Father and the Son, you get all the good of the divine revelation; it is all comfort, there is nothing crooked there!
Ques How is that connected with “I will come to you”?
FER I think it is the presence of the Comforter that enables Christ to come — I think it is that that makes it possible for Christ to come to us. He distinguishes between the saints and the world, and because they have the presence of the Comforter, He can come to them.
HCA He comes where the Spirit has His way?
FER I think so. But the whole point of the chapter is comfort in a scene of mourning. It is a scene of mourning to us, as the Lord said, “Then shall they fast in those days” — it is a time of fasting to us, but here in this chapter you get the comfort amid the fasting and the mourning.
Rem Christ Himself had been their Comforter.
FER Yes. People take account of us as fasting pretty much, because we do not enter into many things which we might consider ourselves entitled to enter into. But we have a good bit of comfort in it for all that!
DLH How the apostle entered into it when he says, “As sorrowful yet alway rejoicing”. It seems a kind of paradox.
FER Yes. I think that the bread and wine in the Supper is an allusion to the bread of comfort and the cup of consolation in the midst of their mourning, as you get it in Jeremiah.