THE BODY
THE BODY
FER What shall we go on with?
MT I do not know. Have you a mind to go on where we left off?
FER We might go on a little further as to the body. What do you say?
JH We might go on with the body.
FER I think we get two very distinct parts in this epistle: the first part is objective, the second is subjective. It is very like Romans in that respect. All the first part of Romans is objective, and you get things looked at in the same way here.
LHF Where is the division?
FER Oh, I think it comes in in chapter 10. Up to that it is all objective. I think we must have both.
LHF When you say objective, do you mean presented in testimony?
FER Yes.
LHF And then subjective is the work of God in the vessel?
FER You get a statement which is the key to the epistle: “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” That is objective. Then when we come to this chapter, he says, “Ye are Christ’s body”. You are God’s temple — that is the first great statement. The second is, You are Christ’s body. One is objective, the other is subjective.
LHF Christ’s body is subjective?
FER No doubt. “By one Spirit are we all baptised into one body ... and have been all made to drink into one Spirit”. That is subjective. Love comes in in that connection. I think it is important to apprehend the two; both hang on the presence of the Spirit. Only the [p. 309] Spirit is looked at in different lights or offices, or whatever you like to call it. We have had a good bit on the one side, the house of God or the temple. Now we have here another side. “By one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, ... and have been all made to drink into one Spirit”. Then later on in the chapter he says, “Ye are Christ’s body, and members in particular”.
LHF What is the connection between the house and the body?
FER Well, I think the house is what marks the dispensation. God has a dwelling-place here, of that Jesus Christ is the foundation. The house is constituted by the Spirit, and the Spirit of God dwells here. Now when you come to this chapter, it is not Christ the foundation, but you are Christ’s body. That is quite a different idea. You are Christ’s body and members in particular.
LHF I think you said the prominent thought in the house was dwelling?
FER Yes.
LHF And the prominent thought in the body?
FER Was Christ.
LHF To set forth Christ?
FER It is to do it for God. Christ should be set forth for God.
MT Up to chapter 10 we have the idea of the house.
FER Yes, clearly. Then from chapter 11 onwards the prominent idea is Christ’s body. You see it hangs really on the place of the Spirit. The Spirit is the Spirit of God, and therefore you may bring God in. If the Spirit is here God is here. On the other hand the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ and in that way is identified with christians subjectively. That is, christians are identified with Christ so that they are Christ’s body.
I think you see the same thing in the presence of Christ on earth. He says, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”. There was a temple for God, where God dwelt on the one hand, and on the [p. 310] other there was a perfect Man for God. That is what came out — there was a perfect Man for God when Christ was here. The Lord says, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”.
RT What distinction would you make between the house and the temple?
FER I think the house is the temple, but it is rather a nice distinction, for after all, in the Spirit it is a spiritual house, and a man is to know how to behave himself in the house of God. Christendom is the house of God in a kind of way — in responsibility — but I should not like to say christendom is the house of God in this way.
RT Is that what we get in Timothy more prominently?
FER Yes; but still we want to apprehend it in that character.
Ques What do you mean by the expression — the body a perfect Man for God?
FER Well, was there not that in Christ? There was the perfect setting forth of man in Christ. He was all that man could be for God, at the same time His body was the temple of God. He says, “Destroy this temple” — He was the living bread come down from heaven.
Ques Would you allow that to be testimony?
FER No, I think it was like the meal-offering, it was that character. A perfect man to God, and on the other hand the presentation of God to man. What was set forth to man was the presence of God. He brought God to man, and He presented man perfectly to God, before God. Therefore in connection with the offering you get the hands full of meal, it was offered and all the frankincense was burnt as a memorial.
LHF Was your thought that this should be continued in the church — what was seen in Christ?
FER I think so. It is the Spirit of God in one way and the Spirit of Christ in the saints. The Spirit of [p. 311] Christ connects Itself with the subjective side.
LHF Would that be the thought in Romans 8?
FER Exactly.
LHF And if Christ be in you ...
FER Yes, there you have it. Only there is this difference in Romans — things are taken up individually. In Corinthians it is collective.
JD The Spirit of God in the assembly, and “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” — they are two different expressions.
FER Yes; one is characteristic. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His.
Ques Is there a difference between the body and the church?
FER Well, the body is the church, and the church is the body. I don’t know that you could speak of a difference between the church and the body, because the church is the body.
MT There is a change in this chapter I think from one to the other in reference to gifts. Gifts are not set in the body but in the church.
FER Well, I think I used to make a mistake in that way. I had thought that gifts were in the body. Scripture, I think, sets it rightly — in fact I do not think — I know it does. Scripture does not speak of gifts in the body, but of gifts to the church.
LHF What is the force of that?
FER Gifts are set in the church in its present constitution. The church in its present constitution does not go beyond the present time — the body does go beyond this period.
LHF That is, there are no gifts in the glory. Do you mean by the present constitution of the church the present place of christians on earth?
JD Do you say there are no gifts in the body now?
FER It does not say there are. It is not stated in that way in Scripture.
Rem I think in Ephesians gifts are [p. 312] looked at as given for the edification of the body of Christ.
FER Gifts are not limited in that way to the church. When Christ ascended He gave gifts for men — for the rebellious also. Gifts are set in the church, but the idea of gifts is not limited to the church, I do not think that gifts, so far as I understand, are connected with the body.
Ques Then sisters come into the truth literally. Do you mean practically or in testimony?
FER I mean in ministry — for the work of the ministry. God won’t allow sisters to be prominent.
Rem I thought you were referring to 1 Corinthians 13: “When that which is perfect”.
LHF Are gifts given once for all by Christ?
FER I think in a kind of way Christ has something to say to it but in a general way it is given once for all. It speaks of the distributing severally to whom He will, but in Ephesians it says gave gifts — it does not say He is giving them. I think in a certain sense everything is of the Spirit. The gifts are given in the Spirit.
JD But not given away, they are simply from Christ I think all here in a way is in the power of the Holy Spirit.
JD But not separate from Christ.
FER Well, the Spirit is not.
LHF As man Christ gave gifts once for all, and now they are distributed by the Spirit.
RT What do you mean by ‘Distributing in the Spirit’?
FER Given severally as He will — that is all I mean. I think everything is in the power of the Holy Spirit down here. The Holy Spirit is not the source of the gifts, Christ is the source, but I think all gifts are under the control of the Spirit.
RT What do you understand by “Gifts ... for the rebellious also” — is that to the Jews?
FER I understand to [p. 313] the rebellious Jews.
RT That is in a future day?
FER Yes.
Ques You speak of the house being objective, and the body subjective. Do you consider that one hangs on the other?
FER I think if you have God dwelling you must have a man. You must have a man for God. I cannot understand one without the other.
Ques Do you mean as you deepen in the sense of the gravity of the house here it will lead to the other?
FER I think it would. I think you must understand the one first — the fact that God is dwelling, then you have to learn the great truth that there is a man for God.
Ques. Is that the body?
FER Till we all come to a perfect man, that is the great idea. Whatever God sees fit to establish here can never be set aside.
Rem That was inaugurated when Christ was here and has continued.
JH What is the thought — “the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”?
FER That is the body.
J.H. When will that be?
FER It is to be achieved here. Every gift is to have its result here. The purpose of the gift is to be brought about on earth.
LHF We have had the idea that it would be when we went to heaven.
FER Oh, no; not a bit. It is, “Till we all come in the unity of the faith”. You will not have the unity of the faith in heaven. The unity of the faith applies to earth. “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God”. Chapter 1 tells you the body is His fulness. “Gave him to be the head over all things to the church” — “till we all come”. We come as individuals in a sense, “till we all come in the unity of the faith ... unto”. That is the result — “the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”. That [p. 314] is the end to which the gifts are given now.
RT It has been thought to be the elect number.
FER I do not look at it in that light. I look at it morally.
Rem It will be perfect in number, but the body is looked at as perfect.
FER Well I do not think the body is looked at as perfect, for growth is contemplated. The body does not lack any member, it is complete in that way, but it is going on to perfection.
LHF Do you say it is perfect in full growth?
FER It is like a child. A child is not full grown and yet every member is there. It is perfect when it is full grown, that is when it comes out as a man.
LHF All that is connected with the body of Christ. I think we have confused the thoughts. Our bodies are members of it, that is another thought.
FER I think so. That is, Christ has a claim upon you. You have not a claim upon your members. Christ has a claim. Our bodies are Christ’s members.
LHF Nothing that we are as in the flesh comes into the body of Christ.
FER I think we have to get back to Christ to understand anything properly. Whatever comes out now is a continuation of what was set forth in Christ. I think if we get that idea it greatly helps us.
LHF So also is the Christ.
FER Quite so. There are two leading thoughts in this epistle. The temple of God and the body of Christ. One is objective the other is subjective. That is, we have the recognition of the great truth that God is dwelling here, and on the other hand that the saints are Christ’s body. By one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, and that body is Christ’s body.
JH What does that refer to — baptised. Is that Pentecost?
FER [p. 315] I think so.
J.H. Only once?
FER I think so. Only one baptism.
Ques What is the difference between the church as the house of God and the church as the body of Christ?
FER It is all the difference between God and man. The one is God and the other is man, and there is a great difference between God and man.
JD There is not much difference between God and the God-man?
FER There is a great deal of difference between God and the idea of man.
RT I do not think we quite understand that.
FER I do not care! however you look at it; I think it is a very good answer.
RT I do not know whether it satisfies the brethren.
FER The reason it does not satisfy them is not because of the badness of the answer!
RT Could you not find another answer for us?
FER No; indeed I could not. I think it a very simple statement — there is a great difference between God and man.
RT I think we all see that less or more, but we do not see how it applies.
FER Christ’s body is man.
RT I see now.
FER What is before God is that man. What do you say to that, Maxwell?
FER You must look at the church as set forth in Christ. What is set forth in Christ is one whole body. Christ had the fulness of the Spirit. No man had the fulness of the Spirit. What is set forth in Him it takes the whole body to set forth.
Ques Is it that the body will be the vessel of display?
FER Well, I think for myself that the body is for God. I may be mistaken but I think the body is for God. “That he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross”. If you can understand — what we [p. 316] want is God. What God wants is man. I do not know if that is understood. What do you say Mr. Telford?
RT I think we can understand that.
AM What God can look down and see is Christ in the body.
FER That is it — that is the body. When Christ was down here He was entirely for God. Everything about Him was fragrant for God.
THR “Unto him be glory in the church ... throughout all ages”.
FER That is it. I never thought of that before.
THR There could be nothing so wonderful — there was a man on earth the Spirit could identify Himself with — with every feeling in that man. It was not that the Spirit produced them, but they were all there. Everything that was perfect and proper in man for God was there, and the Spirit could come down and be identified with everything that was there; otherwise the Spirit must have remained in the Deity and we could not have had the Spirit as the Spirit of Christ. I do not know if I put it clearly. Do you go with that?
FER Perfectly.
THR It is a wonderful thing that we have the Spirit of Christ so that Christ should be produced in us by the Spirit of Christ.
JH Is that the object — what is stated in Ephesians 4: “till we all come”? Is that the object of the gifts?
THR Yes; the first object of the gifts is for the perfecting of the saints, then you have the ministry, the ultimate ends — for the edification of the body of Christ.
FER I think it is very simple if you take in that God wants man and man wants God. There are the two thoughts. We might take up the thought of the temple, God dwelling here by the Spirit; that is all true. Christ has prepared a dwelling-place for God, that is true, but if there were nothing else things would be imperfect for after all where is the man for [p. 317] God?
RT Do I understand you that that will ever take place here? It is true when God looks at it from a certain side. I think God sees it in that way.
FER Oh, then I am content.
RT Will that ever take place here — “till we all come”?
FER You see (the body) gives us the subjective side, but what we have to be taken up with is the objective side. It has pleased God to tell us that which He can produce here for Himself, but I must leave that in a kind of way to God. What I have to be taken up with is the great fact that God is here.
AM So that time belongs to God.
FER The present I think is for God.
Rem That gives one a kind of stimulus.
FER I think we have to take account of the work of God in saints, but after all it is not that which is before us. We have account of it in Scripture. The Acts of the Apostles tells us of the work of God, but after all it is not that which is before us — it is God Himself.
Ques You said there was a great difference between God and man — did you mean the house was man in that way?
FER That is what I meant — the idea is Jew and Gentile are builded together — an habitation for God to dwell in, and on the other hand the house is for man, to present God to man. I think that is the great idea. “My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations”. The house was the great thing for Israel. It is not only for Israel but for all nations. And so too the house of God is down here the seat of God’s testimony. I think the gospel goes out from the house; that is God’s witness and testimony to man goes out from the house. I do not think I can find a better expression — as it were God comes out and puts Himself in touch with man.
LHF And is the response to that — that man comes to be [p. 318] with God?
FER If man is to have part in the house of God another thing comes in — ministry. You get two ministries — the ministry of the gospel and the ministry of the mystery. One is connected with God and God dwelling; the other is connected with the body of Christ.
Ques Do you think if the testimony of the gospel was more associated with the house, there would be better results?
FER I think so. At Pentecost all testimony went from the house and took its character from the house. They went out from the house and took their character from the One who sent them out; they were in perfect union with the One who dwelt there.
Ques “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work”. Would that be the thought?
FER I think that is not testimony.
JD That is more the work of God than testimony.
FER I think God was working and everything that was done took its character from the One who dwelt in the house.
Ques How do you connect the body and the bride?
FER Well, the moment you bring in the head you bring in the bride. We have not the head in Corinthians.
LHF You want to explain that.
FER The moment you bring in the head you bring in what I might call another entity. The head is one being, the body is another being, and the instant you bring in the head you bring in, in principle, the bride. What do you say to that Mr. Telford?
RT I was looking at this in Ephesians 4: “Speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him ... from whom”, etc.
FER Very well. Now you have the bride.
RT That is what I was seeing. The bride comes in here.
Ques Is it the bride in Colossians?
FER Yes. Wherever you bring in the head.
MT I do not see the change between the body and [p. 319] the bride.
Ques You could not have a body without a head?
Ques Do you mean that a body has a head?
FER I mean that the instant you bring in a head, you bring in another being. If you bring in the head you have two. As long as you speak of the body as one — as in Corinthians — you have simply one.
RT You say the head and members together make a body?
FER No, they do not. I mean they do in a human body.
LHF I think we have been hindered by the thought of Christ being the Head and we His members. Do you say Christ in Corinthians is not Christ and the church?
FER The head is not brought in in Corinthians. You never get the head till you come to Colossians and Ephesians. The head is a distinct entity. You get it in husband and wife. In the eye of God they are one — “they shall be one flesh”. But the way they are one is by union. They are really two distinct beings. So Christ and the body are two distinct beings and yet but one being.
Ques Would you say in Colossians: “That in all things he might have the pre-eminence” — that there He eclipses the body?
FER Quite so. He is a distinct being in that sense, and He is to have the pre-eminence. If you take 1 Corinthians 12, you find nothing comes out but what comes out in Christ. That is reproduction in the body of what came out in Christ. Whether the word of wisdom or the word of knowledge, all these were in Christ. It is this which comes out in the body, for the simple reason that it is His body. Of course it is a difficult thing to understand how the Spirit should be God, and on the other hand should be the Spirit of Christ in the saints. It may be difficult, but we have to accept it. Just as there may be a difficulty in a kind of way in understanding how Christ should be the presentation [p. 320] of God to man and yet under the eye of God should be the perfect presentation of man to God.
Rem Christ looked at under the eye of God is looked at in this world.
FER Yes; in the church.
Rem It has been said that on the church looked at as the house of God, judgment is coming, but looked at as the body of Christ it is going on to heavenly glory.
FER I think the body is the connecting link. I do not think the house is exactly the link. I think the house is the present constitution of the church, but I think the link between the church of the present and the future is the body — the body is present and future. J.N.D. pressed the importance of identifying the church with the future. It is not one thing now and another thing in glory. It is the body now and will be the body in glory.
THR What is important for us to see is that what is displayed in glory is formed now. Christ is formed in the saints.
Ques That word where it says, “Till we all come”, does that mean till we all come to the knowledge of what is true already? That is looked at from God’s side. “Till we all come” — does that mean till we all come to the knowledge of the truth of what God has presented.
FER Quite so; to the clear knowledge of the Son of God. People come into the house much sooner than they come into the body as to intelligence. The moment a person is converted and has received the Holy Spirit, that person forms part of the house of God, and nothing can affect that, but that is only the beginning — there must be advance. Advance does not go on in the house but in the body.
Ques They knew nothing about the body.
FER But they knew the house. The truth of the body comes out in Paul but that is in connection with the house. The house was come on the day of Pentecost;
[p. 321] in a certain way qualified for the body. They are baptised into the body, but only at the beginning, on the first step of the ladder as it were. Then it is that growth and advance must begin. Growth goes on in the body.
Rem The house has nothing to do with the mystery.
LHF It is all baptised by one Spirit.
FER They were not made to drink into two different spirits — it was one Spirit.
LHF Does it refer to Jew and Gentile?
FER In the world in a kind of way there are different spirits. The spirit of a wealthy man differs from the spirit of an outcast. The spirit of a king would be different from a beggar. But when you come to the bride of Christ, we are all made to drink into one Spirit.