SONSHIP AND PRIESTHOOD
SONSHIP AND PRIESTHOOD
FER What do you think Mr. Telford?
THR I think we all got a very good idea of the body yesterday. Would it not be well to go on to sonship and priesthood? I only suggest it.
RT I think so.
FER We had better read Colossians 2. In Corinthians I think the point is that there is one body and that body is Christ’s body. Now here in Colossians I think we get an advance on that, and that is the Head is seen in distinction from the body. He is Head to the body. The importance of it to my mind is that it brings in the worshipping company. He really brings in association with Christ and in that you get the priestly worshipping company — the many sons.
Rem You get the Head in heaven.
Ques Do you mean that in association with this we are in association with Christ?
FER Oh, I think it is all a question of realisation. You cannot make it mere standing. Association with Christ is association with Christ. In that sense it is a spiritual idea. It is not simply a term or a status. I think it involves realisation. We are quickened together with Him — that must involve realisation. The body is one — the Head is one, and one and one make two. It brings in really the thought of union. There cannot be union of one. You cannot talk of union in that way. There is not union in the human body. The idea of union does not enter into the constitution of the human body. Where you get the figure of union is in marriage. It is the union of two — of two beings — of two entities.
LHF Then the human figure in Corinthians would not enter into Colossians.
FER I think not; in Colossians it is [p. 323] one body and one Spirit.
JD Would you say that the Head and body were seen distinct and separate in the marriage of the Lamb in Revelation?
FER Well, you get two — you get the Lamb and His wife. You see the moment you come to the idea of head and sonship, and priesthood and risen together with Christ, you are on different ground. We are on the ground of pure grace. We come in that sense to the land of promise — to the land of purpose. We are no longer in the wilderness as individuals but we have come to the ground of purpose, to the promised land. You are circumcised — that is Gilgal. You are buried with Him in baptism. You have come beyond Jordan. You are risen with Him and quickened with Him.
Ques What is the real difference between Ephesians and Colossians. Christ is the Head of the body in Colossians, but He is so also in Ephesians. What is the difference?
FER Well I do not think it is the prominent idea. The Head is introduced incidentally in Ephesians. I think it is much more prominent in Colossians.
RT What is the prominent thought in Ephesians?
FER The body.
JH What do you mean by being introduced incidentally?
FER Oh, it merely says, the Head of the body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.
LHF What would you say is the primary thought in Colossians?
FER Oh, I think it runs with Hebrews — you are brought to the priestly circle. You are risen and quickened together with Christ — on new ground completely. You are not on the ground of responsibility, like Romans, but on the ground of divine purpose.
RT It takes you to Gilgal.
FER Yes, it takes you to Jordan — you are risen with Him. That brings in the priestly company. You [p. 324] are not only risen by faith in order to be capable, but you are quickened together with Him in order to be capable.
LHF What is the force of “Risen with him”? Do you apprehend it by faith?
FER I do not think “risen” illustrates the work of God. I think it represents the desire of God with regard to us. Quickening brings in another thought — the work of God in you. You are quickened together with Him — that is, you are capable. I think God has in that way anticipated the coming of Christ. For quickening is connected properly with the coming in of Christ as last Adam. God has anticipated that — and those who are quickened with Christ are made capable of association with Him.
LHF Would it be right to say that quickening introduces you into the circle of love where God is displayed?
FER I think union is the joining of the Head and the body. They become one in the eye of God. It is like man and wife. Like Rebecca and Isaac — they were joined, they became one in the eye of God. She became his wife and Isaac was comforted after the death of Sarah. We get in them an illustration of the place of Christ and the church at the present time.
LHF Do you think union is present?
FER I think so, what do you think Mr. Reynolds?
THR I think so — the marriage has not actually taken place, but we have the Spirit, it is by the Spirit we are united to Christ.
Ques Was the epistle to the Colossians written for that purpose — because they were not holding [p. 325] the Head?
FER That was not quite the case. It was the seducing teachers who were not holding the Head. The Colossians might be in danger of being led by these teachers.
LHF What is the thought there — not holding the Head?
FER I think it is turning to your own head. I think there is a moral idea connected with the head, that is, you get direction from the head. Look at the expression here; “Intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind”. It is all the exaltation of man — he has confidence in himself. When you lose confidence in yourself you turn to Christ as Head. When a man is self-confident he turns to his own head, he trusts his own mind. When he loses confidence in his own mind that is holding the Head. I think people all go wrong, because they trust themselves in divine things, and their own thoughts and opinions. Men who do that are not holding the Head.
RT Would you say it is knowledge of the Head?
FER Well it is knowledge, but it is more than that, it is holding the Head.
JD Is it allowing the Head to think for you?
FER I think it is you get direction from the Head.
P Do you think Paul understood it when he said, “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves”?
FER That was more in connection with ministry, I think the Head is more connected with the whole body.
Rem We get direction from the Head more properly in the assembly.
JH Is verse 10 collective or individual — “Ye are complete in him”?
FER I look at it as more individual.
JD In regard to what was said on verse 19 — “Not holding the Head” — in connection with the question asked — Is that in contemplation when we come together in the assembly? Do we come to receive or to give?
FER Oh! I think we come to get impulse. I think Christ in the assembly gives movement. I think the Head sets it all on, so to speak, He sets it in movement.
LHF How does the Spirit come in in that connection?
FER I think the Spirit acts in connection [p. 326] with the Head. He moves in accordance with the Head. I think we have to see that the spiritual movement originates in the Head. I think it is the Head who gives direction. When you come together you begin with the Lord’s supper. And when properly expressed it sets in motion.
I fancy we have a kind of idea that the Head is there to direct what is to be done — whether praise, thanksgiving, an address or whatever it may be. I do not think that is the idea. I think the Head is there really to give impulse to the spiritual affections. It is difficult to define it.
M That is, the Lord’s supper is fitted to induce it.
FER I think so. I think the Supper puts everything in its proper place. Christ in His place, we in our place. I believe there are few things less understood than the assembly.
JD Putting Christ in His place — is not that a peculiar expression?
FER I mean it gives Him His right place in the mind of the saints.
LHF That would be through affection.
FER Quite so. There is moral value in the assembly. You have only to read 1 Corinthians 13 to see that. I believe many people have a kind of idea that the value of the Head to the assembly is to direct. But I do not think that anything is of value in the assembly that does not come from affection. That is not my remark, it is a remark of Mr. Darby’s.
LHF It is very simple.
Ques Would you say one involves the other — that if we have the direction of the Head we have the direction of the Spirit so that it is not far wrong to say that the Lord directs what is to be done?
FER I do not object to that at all, but I do not think it is the first idea of the Head.
Ques When you speak of the assembly do you speak of coming together on Lord’s day morning?
FER I think when the assembly comes together in that way it [p. 327] is to the Supper.
LHF Would that be the only assembly meeting?
FER Except in connection with discipline. I do not think there is any other idea of the assembly coming together. There may be occasion for the assembly to come together for discipline but that is abnormal. When we come together in the assembly it is to the Lord’s supper. I believe it is in the Supper the Lord meets us really.
Ques Do I understand there is holding the Head apart from the Lord’s day?
FER Oh, the Head is always the Head. What you have to realise is the body. The Head is always the Head, but I do not think the idea of the body is realised except in the assembly.
JH Even there very little.
FER Very little, I fear. I think people come together very much as believers, because it is a right thing to do. There is apparently little sense of the idea of the worshipping company, that is the priestly company, risen together with Christ and quickened together with Him. I judge that is poorly entered into.
Rem We may be in the assembly meeting and not be in the assembly.
FER I think you may be there without having a true idea of the assembly according to God — of what the assembly is to Christ. “In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”. I do not think that refers to the outward company. I think it refers to those in association with Him. I do not think it is in connection with the wilderness, but with the land of promise. You are risen together with Him. You are quickened together.
Ques Is not the outward thing broken up?
FER You come out of the outward thing. You come and participate in one Spirit. “By one Spirit are we all baptised into one body”. I think you must come together with that thought simply. I think you see it in the case of the newly converted, they cannot know the truth of the one body, or association with Christ, but you [p. 328] would not exclude them. They come into fellowship without much intelligence, but you are happy about their coming in.
Ques Then you mean in that way they may be in the assembly without realising their place in the assembly?
FER I have no doubt the Corinthians and the Galatians came together in the assembly and rightly so, but at the same time I do not think that either one or the other had any real idea of the assembly according to the mind of God — that is of the church in its true character.
Ques Would you say that the character of the worship shews your true place as in the worshipping company?
FER Well, I think that would have to be according to Christ. I think the standard in that case would be the Head — what is suitable to the Head. If you can speak of such a thing as the worshipping company, I do not think you could have anything less than that everything must be according to Christ.
Ques In Hebrews we get Him as the Leader of praise. How does that stand in relation to worshipping Him?
FER I think we recognise the Lord there. I do not think we get perfection here. I was speaking of what might be called ideal perfection.
Ques We ought to aim at it?
FER Well, if up to it.
LHF It is a great thing not to set up standards but to seek to reach the thing in our souls.
Ques. Might it not be?
FER You see you cannot have things artificially, it would never do to have an artificial state of things.
THR I question if you can ever separate the Father and the Son in worship. There may be a difference in thinking of the Lord in redemption which very few go beyond. When you get into the company of Christ, and enter into what He is as Son to the Father, I understand you worship Him. The moment He is revealed as Son of God, you worship [p. 329] Him. I do not know how to separate Them in the mind.
FER I think we have to remember what is in chapter 2 — “In him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”.
THR You could not separate Them.
FER It is extremely important to remember that Christ is the presentation of God to us.
Ques Is it that which the Lord has committed to us — “This do in remembrance of me” — before we get the worship of the priests?
FER It is in the Supper Christ meets us.
THR I think what you said just now is very important. You realise that you are risen with Christ, and in association with Him you leave the outside thing behind. I think the Supper brings that before you. If Christ has gone through death, He brings us to His side of death, that we might be in association with Him.
JD I ask this question, it is an important one, in connection with what you have said: Is He in the midst of the assembly before the bread is broken, or not until after?
FER Well, I really could not tell you. What I see is this. You take up in mind what happened on earth. The Lord had taken the passover with His disciples, that was, as it were, the closing up of all after the flesh. He is present with them and He presents to them the bread and wine. I think in that He presents Himself to them in an entirely new way. That begins what I call a new departure.
THR I think it is there that spiritually you touch His presence. That is the great point. It is not, is He present and when is He present, but really you touch His presence in the assembly.
FER I think so.
Ques His presence in what way?
FER It is a thing you cannot define. You apprehend in affection.
JD Has it not been said, He comes to [p. 330] our side consequent on resurrection?
FER Well, I think He meets us in the Supper. The Supper has its own peculiar character in what it expresses. The moment He meets us, and we meet Him, we are in association with Him.
MT I think there would be less difficulty in it if we were more simple. We are apt to make things legal by getting away from simplicity.
FER When the Lord instituted the Supper He was with them, and they were with Him. He had eaten the passover and would not again, He says, until that day when it should be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Keeping that in mind makes it simpler to me. He was with them and put before them the bread and wine.
JH You referred to young converts; would you say they were in the freshness and power of it?
FER Oh, I think so. They may greatly lack in intelligence as to the church and the worshipping company.
JH But the affections may be right.
FER Yes; and they naturally take it as a matter of affection.
JH They might be before some who are more intelligent.
FER I think they might in freshness.
JH What I mean is intelligence is not enough.
FER But if I speak of real intelligence, I think it hangs on affection. Mary of Bethany was extremely intelligent, but it was the outcome of affection. I do not think there is real intelligence if the affections are not in exercise. Do you agree with that Mr. Reynolds?
THR To my own mind I think it is a precious thing to find yourself in the company of Christ. You cannot lay down rules as Mr. Telford said, but it is an immense thing to realise that Christ draws you to His side having passed through death to bring you to it. It is like Aaron and his sons.
It is a wonderful thing to worship in the company [p. 331] of Christ.
P Only you must have it in order.
FER You may have it in too strict formal order.
P When the Lord presents the bread and the wine, it seems to me there must be a stop — that the Lord would have us occupied with that — that we should be thinking of the greatness of His love in entering into death.
FER You are not to be thinking of anything at all. The moment you begin with thinking, there is a danger of not holding the Head.
JD What is the force of “Remember me”?
FER “Remember me” could have no literal application to us.
LHF Would it have a spiritual application?
FER You have to take it up intelligently.
LHF You mean they knew Him?
FER Quite so. They had been with Him.
LHF What about the Corinthians?
FER The apostle brings before them the first institution. He does not give another. You have to take it up in spiritual intelligence. You announce the Lord’s death.
LHF Would it be correct to say that we call Him to mind?
FER I think He brings Himself into presence. I think we meet Him in the Supper. I believe the point for us is we are in the fellowship of His death, and we meet Him in the fellowship of His death. I think it is there we meet Him. If He does not make us conscious of His presence, do not think His presence is much. It is not much good to you if you are not in the consciousness of it.
M Is it by means of the bread and the wine we apprehend His presence?
FER Well, I think the bread and wine are a great test of being in accord with His mind. It is the great expression of His love.
M And then when we have the apprehension [p. 332] of His love as thus expressed we have Himself.
FER I think so.
Ques Then you would not look upon the Supper as the remembrance of Himself at all, would you?
FER I think you announce His death until He come.
Ques To whom do we announce it?
FER Well, I am not greatly concerned as to others.
Ques Is it something initiatory to remember Him?
FER The apostle recalls the original institution as separated from all. We announce His death. We have nothing to do with a Christ on earth.
Devine. I thought the prominent thought was to remember Him, and that in that act we announce His death.
FER Well, it is very difficult to my mind how we can remember Him. I can understand the disciples remembering Him, but to me it is a difficult matter how to remember Him or to call Him to mind if He is with us and we are with Him. It is extremely difficult to give it a literal application.
Devine. I see different now. I see a little different now to what I did before.
AM The verse you quoted in Hebrews — “In the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee”. If we were in the consciousness of that in association with Him would there not be a certain line before us consistent with that which would exclude a great deal that takes place in our meetings?
FER Yes; I think so. I have often been struck with the force of the expression, “In the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee”. I think it indicates that He comes in and joins Himself to our praise.
Rem That is beyond rule.
FER Beyond rule. I do not think it would be anything artificial.
Rem If we had what is consistent with His line of praise it would exclude a good deal we have.
Rem It would be all right if we waited on Him.
FER [p. 333] I think it would. But I see the wonderful grace of the Lord in coming down to us. The disciples sung a hymn before going out; the hymn might not have been much.
Rem If they had been right they would have been directed what to sing. The normal state of the assembly is to wait on the Head.
FER I think it would go right if spiritual affections were in exercise.
Rem It ought to be.
FER ‘Ought’ is an awkward word.
RT With regard to young converts being received, I think we might get a little help on that and the amount of intelligence we should look for. I think we are apt to go to extremes.
FER Like yourself, I dare say as a young convert I had no apprehension of Christ as Head. I knew Him as Lord and there was a certain amount of affection. No one newly converted has the apprehension of Christ as Head — there may be attachment to Him as Saviour and Lord, and the consciousness of grace, but there is no intelligence of Him as Head.
RT But that is hardly what I was thinking of. I think we might get a little help as to receiving — we are apt to go to extremes.
FER I think a person is received simply as being a christian and as having received the Spirit. At the same time, in view of the peculiar position brethren occupy, I do not think it is quite fair to them to allow them to come into fellowship without giving them an idea of what they are committing themselves to. I mean in view of the peculiar position we occupy in regard to fellowship.
Ques What would you say to them?
FER I should say this to them, I should let them know the ground we are on, that we are not in accord with the christianity around us.
Ques What do you mean by that?
FER Christendom is the camp — and we have come [p. 334] outside the camp, therefore you are not in accord with christendom. Christendom goes on the ground that Christ is in honour here. We apprehend that Christ is rejected and therefore we go out to Him.
Ques What do you mean by Christ being in honour in christianity?
FER Why, they stick up their church steeples as a kind of assertion that Christ is in honour here. For their own sakes they ought to be shewn that we take the place of rejection with Him, so that when they are in fellowship they may not turn round and say, You did not let us understand.
RT Suppose the case of a man converted ten years ago — we know he has made no advance and that he has no intelligence of his place in Christ, but we believe he has real affection for Christ — What would you think of that man?
FER I should say, Let him in. If affection is there it is a great thing.
THR I think every case must be taken on its own merit in the exercise of spiritual judgment.
FER “That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God”. It is “knit together in love”.