"IN CHRIST"
“IN CHRIST”
Rem Nothing could more clearly indicate the character of what it is to be “in Christ” than verse 17.
FER I think we must connect that with what precedes: “If one died for all, then were all dead”, it is new creation.
Rem That is to say, the old order has been closed up in death.
FER Yes; Christ is no longer known after the flesh, therefore the apostle says we know no one after the flesh.
Ques That completely gets rid of the thought of being “in Christ” for security?
FER “In Christ” is properly outside of the thought of responsibility. The responsible man is seen as gone before you come to “in Christ”.
Rem Responsibility never enters into “in Christ”.
FER How could it when the apostle in his own mind was so outside of the responsible man here that he does not know Christ after the flesh? Then he begins to speak of “in Christ”, and he says, “Therefore if any man be in Christ”.
Ques “In Christ” would be in contrast to “in Adam”?
FER Every man in Adam is in God’s eye dead. God now sees only one Man. I have been greatly struck with the passage quoted in Acts 8, “His life is taken from the earth”. If so, then what life can there be here? All other life is forfeited; all is under the judgment of God, and when Christ’s life was here that life was taken from the earth.
Ques What is the difference between “in Christ” in Romans 8 and 2 Corinthians 5?
FER None I should say. “In Christ” is not the [p. 116] subject of direct teaching in Romans. It shews in chapter 8: 1 the place of privilege of christians; but it is brought in as an abstract thought. No condemnation to them that “are in Christ Jesus”. Here in 2 Corinthians 5 it is a positive state: “If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”. In Romans — if there, there is “no condemnation”. The statement is abstract, not put forth in direct application.
Rem They are in a sphere where condemnation could never reach them.
FER Quite so.
Ques Our being “in Christ” is not exactly the thought of security?
FER No; security is in being sealed with the Holy Spirit. The fact is that the Holy Spirit has brought about new creation, the Spirit quickens.
Ques Does not the expression in Romans 6, “reckon ye also”, go farther than that in Romans 8: 3?
FER It is only a reckoning there. It is a moral necessity, you reckon yourself alive to God. If you do, it must be “in Christ”. The reason of this is, that there being no life at all in the first Adam line, you must be alive “in Christ Jesus”. There is no life left here — life must be in the One who is out of death in a risen Man — that Man is now in another sphere.
Rem But in 2 Corinthians it speaks of the life of Jesus being manifest in our mortal flesh.
FER Yes, the life of Jesus is to be reproduced morally in us, the grace that came out in Him when on earth.
Ques The apostle is speaking, is he not, from the standpoint of new creation when he says, “know we no man after the flesh”?
FER He is working up to it. It is only when your mind comes, in a sense, to that point that you enter into the reality of what it is to be “in Christ”.
Ques Is this what is spoken of in John 14. “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”?
FER Well, it runs with it; but here we have the character and order, “If any man be in Christ”, “new creation”. It is not reconstruction, nor rehabilitation of the old order; it is a new order of man altogether.
Ques How is it arrived at? How did the apostle himself arrive at it?
FER I think the first step experimentally is for the mind to be altogether free from the other man.
Ques Does it not depend on what the Spirit of God has wrought in your soul?
FER I think so.
Ques But the teaching in Romans 5, Romans 6, Romans 7, Romans 8, leads up to it — that must come before?
FER It must — but Romans hardly brings you to new creation. That is not a new remark.
Ques It gives newness of life?
FER Yes; but that is moral; walking in newness of life.
Ques What is the difference between “in Christ” and eternal life?
FER Eternal life in Christ is the privilege. “The gift of God”, which is “eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”. In new creation you find eternal life, nothing short of that. You cannot find eternal life apart from being in Christ, else there would be no new creation. John goes as far as Paul in this. He says it is in His Son.
Ques Is life in Christ necessary for being in Him — must we have it first?
FER I think you are created in Christ, and the effect of being created in Christ is, that you have life in Christ. We are His workmanship, created in Him for good works.
Ques Is it all the sovereign act of God?
FER New creation must be the sovereign act of God.
Ques With regard to the expression “in Christ”, is it always the same thing? For instance, Romans 16: 7,
“in Christ before me”?
FER I think there it is simply that they were christians before Paul.
Ques Do you attach it to profession?
FER I do not think “in Christ” is ever profession exactly.
Ques “If any man be in Christ”, why the “if”?
FER “If” always lays the ground for a necessary moral consequence. It implies a necessity, not a doubt.
Ques Is it for exercise of soul?
FER It does exercise souls. When “if” is connected with a proposition laid down, some moral consequence necessarily follows. For instance, “If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself”; that is the necessary consequence.
Ques You say “in Christ” is never profession; what is profession?
FER I understand profession is that you confess Christ as Lord.
Rem Profession has to do with Christ in glory.
Rem Profession is not a hollow thing in scripture. It has come to be such.
Rem People are not responsible to profess anything as to new creation.
FER But people are responsible to recognise that God has exalted Christ, and made Him Lord of all; man is responsible to know this; God is not mocked; Christ has come out and accomplished redemption, and is exalted to the right hand of God, and every single person in the whole world should confess Him Lord. What we call christendom is where people professedly own Him as Lord.
Ques Does it not simplify the subject if we look at Romans 6, Romans 7, Romans 8, as our side?
FER Exactly; it very greatly helps.
Ques At what point in the soul’s history is a person “in Christ”?
FER I think when the Spirit has quickened it,
“flesh profits nothing”. The uselessness of the flesh is recognised. It is very interesting to see how the apostle arrives at this in his own mind here, how he refuses the flesh. I just point out the steps: 1, Christ dies; 2, That witnesses that all are dead; 3, The conclusion based on that is, we know no one after the flesh; 4, You come to new creation — “If any man be in Christ, there is new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new”. It is then that we enter upon things that are of God.
Ques Is the new man a peculiarity of christianity?
FER The new man is a new creation, and always spoken of in connection with it. It is created “in truthful righteousness and holiness”. The having put off the old man and put on the new are concurrent.
Ques Is that the soul entering upon the truth before God?
FER Exactly. The end of man to His glory came before God at the cross, and the resurrection has brought in life out of death.
Ques What is the meaning of the expression ‘arriving at the fact’?
FER What is the good of the mere fact to you if you do not arrive at it? God arrived at it 1800 years ago, but it is not a bit of good in our experience until we have arrived at it.
Ques Is the arriving at it illustrated by Elisha, when he rent his own clothes and took up the mantle of Elijah?
FER Yes; that is very much like putting off the old man. He rent his own clothes, and then put on the garment of Elijah, and that characterised him henceforth.
Ques Is “old things ... passed away” true of any until they have arrived at it?
FER It would not be a bit of good to them till then. What is the use of it until made good in one’s soul? nobody could predicate it of me until I have arrived at it.
[p. 120] It has been said that the best robe was in the Father’s house, but the prodigal heard nothing about it until it was put on. God can see every person “in Christ” in purpose. He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, but we are not to lose sight of our own side on which it is made effectual.
Rem I think the great difficulty and hindrance has been in looking at ourselves only as in the purpose of God, and resting there, and not entering into it practically for oneself.
Rem It has been taught that “in Christ” is true of a soul from the first moment it has life.
FER I think the first breath of life is the proof that you are “in Christ” — that you have arrived at it.
Ques Do you mean by the first breath of life new birth?
FER No. There is no breath of life according to God, until Christ is formed in you — then there is the putting off the old man, and the putting on of the new.
Ques When Ishmael is cast out have you arrived at “in Christ” in the history of your soul?
FER Yes. But I think that is more the thought of liberty.
Ques Do you connect that with John 20?
FER I think in John 20 the Lord communicated the power or spring, but it had to take effect. John 20 is the divine side, shewing the place which Christ has taken as the last Adam, the Quickener. The child is alive when born, but you get the expression of life afterwards. When you get the expression of life then you are proved to be living, you are “in Christ”.
Ques You get the sense in your soul that you have got the Holy Spirit, the power to live?
FER It is not that merely. People are content to have the Holy Spirit, but that is only the beginning. The Holy Spirit is a divine power, and out of all proportion to the man — to the greatest man that ever was; the work of the Holy Spirit is not to display divine [p. 121] power in a man. He forms you. He would rather see one single proof of life in you as the result of His formative work than any display of power.
Ques You mean by display, power in performing miracles, &c.?
FER Yes. But the Spirit is forming me. It is not simply that the Spirit should cry, “Abba, Father”, in me, but He would have me cry, “Abba, Father”.
Ques Do you mean the difference between the presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer, and what the Holy Spirit forms in a believer, what comes out in him?
FER Yes. The Holy Spirit forming the man is most important.
Ques Is not the man full grown when he is new created?
FER All is so far perfect, but that is only the beginning. One has to grow. The man formed in the Holy Spirit is more to God than the greatest work of power — and after all the greatest act of power is to form a man of God.
Ques Would you say the Holy Spirit works in us that we may bear fruit for God?
FER Yes. You go back to the first part of Numbers and you take the wilderness according to God.
Ques You say, you must be formed in Christ — how does the Spirit produce it?
FER I believe the Spirit works in two ways. First, He gives you the right thought of what He is forming in you; and the second is, He brings you under the influence of what He is forming you in. First, He ministers objective truth; but that is very different from what some are so ready to insist on, in a kind of dogmatic way as to the standing of a christian — that is not my thought of objective truth. What I understand by it is the presentation of God to a christian as revealed in Christ’s death in such a way that the heart of the christian is brought under the influence of the love of God, and formed by that love. Then there is another [p. 122] line of ministry, that is the testimony of God which has found its resting-place in Christ, and the sense of this brings you into liberty. The two lines work together.
In ministry you present Christ as the expression of God.
Ques Will you repeat the distinction between these two ministries?
FER I think it is very beautiful to trace the various testimonies of God in scripture, and to see all finding their resting-place in Christ, the expression and witness of God’s pleasure, and the effect of seeing it, is to bring the soul into liberty. Then there is the other line of which I spoke, shewing the nature of God, what He is, and the purpose of His love. And the effect of this is, that the christian is brought under the influence of God’s love, and formed in His nature. One of the lines is the revelation of Himself, of His nature — and the other of His ways. Every testimony of God converges and finds its resting-place in Christ, and that is the thought in the new Jerusalem.
Ques Does the effect upon the hearers come before the mind of the one who wishes to set forth God as He is revealed?
FER The testimony comes to the hearers as light. I do not believe either teacher or evangelist can really effect anything in anybody. God alone can effect anything.
Rem As regards the ministry of 2 Corinthians, the ministers are not sufficient of themselves — but the apostle says, “our sufficiency is of God”.
FER But the Lord is the quickening Spirit. God will not, I think, use us except to enlighten. You never get a soul born again but by the power of God, nor do you usually get a soul enlightened but by the agency of man.
Ques How far can the individual saint help the Spirit of God in forming Christ in us?
FER There may be cleaving to the Lord with [p. 123] purpose of heart. Many are wanting in purpose, and when they are tested they do not answer to the test. Every little bit of new light you get will test you. The great question is, will you answer to the test?
Rem A very great deal as to that depends on whether you have the fear of God before you. That will make you careful, otherwise you may take yourself out of the line of God’s teaching and leading.
Ques Should you have before you the state of those you may be addressing?
FER We cannot ignore the state of people, but we know very little about it.
Ques But if we were in the hands of the Lord, if dependent enough, would He not give the right word? J.N.D. used to say he found out the state of the meeting by the word which the Lord gave to him.
FER Possibly so, if a man were spiritual and sensitive enough. But you know ministry to a large extent is like an arrow shot at a venture. If dependent, the Lord gives help for the occasion, but you know little of the company you are addressing. I always feel a dread the first time I go to a place. But in going on one gets a little sensitive to the company and more in touch with them. That is a great reason for going on in places a little longer than we have been accustomed to.
Ques Would you say that the presentation of the heart of God is in the gospel, and that the presentation of all He has effected is what brings to the assembly?
FER You could not draw a sharp line in that way and attribute certain results to certain lines of ministry. Persons sometimes come to things in a most remarkable way. You may preach a powerful sermon and it does not apparently produce the least effect. There must be the activity of the Spirit of God. You may see the two lines presented in scripture, but you have to present things according to your own apprehension of them. I am not simply an expositor of scripture, and I do not think any servant should be; we ought to be expositors [p. 124] of what scripture has taught us. You can only help according to what God has taught you.
Rem It is a terrible thing to take up other people’s ideas and attempt an exposition of them.
FER I think so. Therefore you can effect no good unless in what has had an effect on yourself.
Ques Will you explain what you mean by saying you get “in Christ” in real power only in Ephesians?
FER I think in Ephesians you get the full opening up of the counsel of God which is in Christ. There are two lines of truth in connection with “in Christ”, one that in Christ is the revelation of divine counsel, not simply that He is the revelation of God, but the expression of divine counsels; on the other hand there is the formative side in us and the power that forms according to that revelation, that is according to divine counsel as revealed in Christ. For instance, you get such an idea as eternal life in Christ, and “he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will”. All the revelation of divine counsel is in Christ. Christ Himself is the expression and revelation of divine purpose. Then there is the other side of the truth, namely, the forming us according to that purpose, and therefore according to Christ. That is chapter 3, the subjective side.
But the apostle opens from the divine height. “He has chosen us”, &c., that is divine counsels. Ephesians gives us the thought of new creation in a more distinct and full way than we get it elsewhere. God sets to work to make His counsels operative in that way by the formative work of the Spirit in us.
Ques What did you mean in speaking of God’s ways?
FER In meeting the breakdown of the responsible man here Christ brings to pass the will of God. There [p. 125] would have been no necessity for these ways of God if there had been no breakdown here. God’s ways have reference to the breakdown and to the necessary solution of the question of good and evil.
The Old Testament wants the New to complete it. It is not complete in itself. It is perfect in itself, but you want the New to give the other side. You get the thought of access to God, and the ways of God in the wilderness, and the various testimonies of God, but you do not get God coming out. That we get in the New Testament.
Ques What is quickened together with Him?
FER That brings you to the church. You can be a very good individual christian in the wilderness. I was greatly struck with the two psalms referred to yesterday, 135 and 136. They do not bring you to the land, they do not go beyond the heritage of the land of Og and Sihon. The two and a half tribes, though really enjoying land given them of God, did not abide over Jordan. They did not really enter into the height of God’s purpose.
Ques As to the formative power of the Spirit in the soul, is there such a thing as increase or progress in new creation?
FER I do not think you could speak of progress in new creation. When the apostle speaks of new creation in Ephesians he was speaking to saints who had really reached the truth of it in their souls; and when light is operative, you want to know something about what God has wrought. That want scripture meets. You cannot really understand any part of scripture unless you have it in your soul.
Ques What is faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints?
FER I think they apprehended the glory of the Lord and were walking according to it.
Ques I suppose Ephesians could not be entered upon without first entering upon Romans?
[p. 126] FER You cannot get into Ephesians until you get into liberty. You do not get light until you want it. People are often studious to keep light out. They know very well that if the light comes in they will have to drop something — suppose they want to enjoy social life, or a pleasant place in the country, the light would break in upon all that. You are not here for your pleasure, but for Christ’s pleasure. I am sure people do keep the light out because they know instinctively that the light will shake them up.
Ques What would make people go on in the Lord’s path?
FER If you are going to accept the path the Lord marks out for you it is death to things down here; all must go. It is the old story of Peter on the water. All the things I might be naturally entitled to and able to enjoy here must go. It is gain to take the Lord’s path, it brings a great deal of exercise, but you get Christ for your gain.
When the church is in ruin, or indeed in the ruin of any dispensation, nothing but a Nazarite will meet the case. That is, a man prepared to surrender the proprieties and joys of life that he might be naturally entitled to.
Rem Every bit of light that we receive we find something that opposes it.
FER Therefore we are told to “lay aside every weight, and the sin that doth so easily beset us”. This is not done once for all, but there is continual surrender. It is interesting to trace the first separated man, Abraham — in every little bit of light he got, as sure as possible he was tested. Sometimes he answered to the test, and sometimes he did not. If he failed, he brought trouble on himself, while if he answered to the test, he got more light. I think every one might study the history of Abraham with great profit and interest, and learn in him the ways of God with an individual saint.
Ques As to individuals, will you explain how Caleb [p. 127] and Joshua were kept out of the land though ready for it?
FER They formed the link between the responsible and the elect Israel; they had part in the two numberings, because they represented faith.
Ques Would you say that in that way those who came out of Egypt entered the land?
FER Yes, individual faith maintained this. The children of Israel came out of Egypt, and represent one christian in a sense. But it is not the same man that comes out of Egypt who enters the land. The link is maintained in faith — the link is between the man of responsibility and the man of God’s purpose, and the link is faith.