THE PURPOSE OF GOD IN A DAY OF SMALL THINGS
THE PURPOSE OF GOD IN A DAY OF SMALL THINGS
JT It helps to make clear the position here if we note that these two prophets laboured together on account of a certain condition at Jerusalem, recorded in the fourth and fifth chapters of Ezra.
“Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes’ letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem, unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power. Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius; king of Persia”, Ezra 4: 23. “Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied unto the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of the God of Israel, even unto them, Then rose up Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and began to build the house of God which is at Jerusalem: and with them were the prophets of God helping them”, Ezra 5: 1, 2.
If we get the situation clearly before us we will see the circumstances under which they laboured, and how they not only spoke the word of the Lord, but also helped in the building.
FL I suppose there might be a suggestion in that there were two. I was thinking of the two witnesses in the Revelation. It is rather interesting to see, if you compare Haggai with Zechariah, that Haggai speaks, then there is an interval and Zechariah speaks; then there is an interval and Haggai speaks; then there is an interval again and Zechariah speaks. That is, the one supports the testimony of the other.
[p. 78] Compare Haggai 2: 1; Zechariah 1: 1; Haggai 2: 10;. Zechariah 1: 7.
JT Haggai in his messages, I think he received five, deals with the condition of the people, calling attention to the lethargy that had set in among them, in that they were dwelling in ceiled houses and the house of the Lord lay desolate. The first message creating a movement among them, there is a second one, and a third one; and then there is a fourth one on the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, and there is a fifth one on that same day. This fifth message, I think, lays the basis for Zechariah, because in the last message he speaks to Zerubbabel, who undoubtedly typifies the Lord Jesus in connection with the purposes of God.
Verse 20 of chapter 2 reads: “And again the word of the Lord came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying, Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; and I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen: and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the Lord, and will make thee as a signet; for I have chosen thee, saith the Lord of hosts”.
FL I thought Haggai concerns himself particularly with the house and the glory of the house in connection with Christ; while Zechariah seems to concern himself more with the city, and the land, and the nations, and so develops a great deal more than Haggai.
JT Yes, and Haggai calls attention to the day on which they began to move and take account of things with God. Now he wishes that they should [p. 79] note that day, for he says the blessing begins then. It says in chapter 2: 18, “Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of the Lord’s temple was laid, consider it. Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth: from this day will I bless you”.
An Israelite would value that day; he would go out occasionally to look at the different things to see how they were coming on. It would be a time of expectation from Jehovah from that point. The vine, and the fig tree, and pomegranate and olive had not as yet begun to bud, but now they were to watch for growth. That is, I suppose, the word of God moves us and we take account of His interests. We can find these four things in a spiritual sense developed; the vine, the fig tree, the pomegranate and olive.
WCR What is the spiritual significance of them?
JT Perhaps we had better turn to Judges 9: 9: The olive tree says, “Should I leave my fatness; wherewith by me they honour God and man?” And the fig tree says, “Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit?” And the vine says, “Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man?” These three are there, that which honours God and man, that which cheers God and man, and the sweetness and good fruit. These are features that developed from that day, the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month, and they are most essential things to have if we are set here in relation to the things of God. I suppose, the pomegranate would be typical of unity.
FL You get that from the garment of the high priest?
JT Yes. Those who come from the West Indies [p. 80] say the form of the fruit suggests it. Although I am not much acquainted with that, I think the spiritual use of it would be unity. A Christian would go out and see how these things developed, beginning with that day, the day he became exercised by the word of God coming home to him.
FL So the Lord, in the day when the terrific pressure of things was to bear in on the remnant, does not throw them upon outside signs or marks, but says, they were to look for the budding of the fig tree. That would be their sign. There is the evidence of a divine work, a divine work which is responsive to His touch from the heavens in the rain and sun. It is the evidence of a divine work that we are to look for. As you said, they were to go out and look for it.
JT The Lord had cursed the fig tree before He left, and I suppose the budding would be the indication of an incoming of life. So it is with us.
FL He had reversed all that now.
JT No one would seek to occupy Christians with themselves, but certainly a godly Jew under those circumstances would consider from that day onward and see how the things went. The blessing of God was seen in the fruitfulness of his garden.
JB Three of these fruits, omitting the olive, were mentioned in regard to what the spies brought back from the land, grapes, figs and pomegranates.
JT Yes. So that they are a sort of heavenly growth. That elevates the subject a bit, bringing in a heavenly thought. Now the second message to Haggai is very interesting in the sense that it is the counterpart of the first, being on the same day. It connects the soul with the purpose of God. That is, there is the fruit growing on the one hand; and then the purpose of God, my relation to Christ: all that He has in His mind in regard of Christ. I think Zechariah enlarges greatly on that. You [p. 81] have a definite person introduced here. Haggai leaves you with a definite person before your soul, a figurative person, Zerubbabel. He is left before the soul as Jehovah’s signet, who is Christ, I suppose, suggesting that everything is, so to speak, to bear the impress of this Man.
FL It is evident there is a great expansion in Zechariah, and it seems to me that Haggai comes in on the moral line of recovery in connection with the house. Zechariah, as you said, takes up the purpose of God. It would help if you would give us an outline of what is in your mind in connection with Zechariah.
JT First of all, you have in the chapter read, the Gentile monarchies or powers, and their relation to Israel, Judah and Jerusalem. They had gone beyond the divine direction. They had done more than God had directed them to do and God is taking account of this. So the first chapter is the way that God takes account of the Gentile powers; they are met with these four “carpenters”, remarkable kind of instruments to use to meet the influence or power of the Gentiles. The second chapter is God dwelling in Zion, and the “holy land”. The expression “holy land” is found there: in Nehemiah it is the “holy city”. And the third chapter, I think, is the kind of man that is to be in it. I do not know that we should go beyond that for the moment. That was what I especially had in view in suggesting this book. The message to Zerubbabel is very remarkable in that it comes in on the same day on which the saints are moved to look for fruit-bearing. We have the “fruit unto holiness”, so to speak, but then Christ is the object of the purpose of God and that must be provided for in our souls. Here is the One who is Jehovah’s signet, the One, I suppose, who is to stand for, to give character to everything, and our souls are to develop and progress on that line.
[p. 82] So what Zechariah opens up to us is the city and the holy land.
FL I suppose at the end of the second chapter we come to a kind of climax. That is, things have been pursued to the point of the Lord finding His inheritance in the holy land and the city, and all flesh is called upon to be silent, for the Lord is raised up out of His holy habitation. Then at the end of the third chapter, you would say, we get another climax. That is, the millennial order of things; every man calls his neighbour under his vine and under his fig-tree. First we have God’s portion, and then blessing for men in the world to come.
AFM That would be a clear advance upon Haggai, where they go to see if they are flourishing. You can call your neighbour under the vine and fig trees now Yes. The vine and fig-tree are already grown and have flourished.
AFM Do you regard these two things as encouragement for us who have left the confusion of Babylon and are seeking to be here in connection with the recovered light of God? Is that what is in your mind?
JT That is what I had in mind. First, Haggai bringing in the light as to the house and leading the movement which God formally approves; and then the subsequent messages of Haggai, leading up to Zerubbabel, who is definitely set before the soul as he who is Jehovah’s signet. I think that we are in that way set on the line of Colossians. Here is a man for God. And Zechariah, I think, opens up typically Ephesians to us.
GWH Colossians gives you the Man.
JT Yes, He is definitely before the soul now. I suppose Romans is the budding, the principle of things in the soul. You go back to that. You have “fruit unto holiness”. Then you get a Man, a [p. 83] definite object for the soul, in Colossians; and in Ephesians the full purpose of God, the sphere of it, and the order of Man that will be there.
WHF You are speaking now in regard to the scripture before us, that it gives a sort of detail in regard to Colossians and Ephesians?
JT I think Romans is the spirit, or principle, of things in Christianity. That is, you have the principle of faith there, the budding. All is there. It is potential; that is, there are great possibilities. They are not all achieved yet, or accomplished, but they are all there potentially, so it becomes evident that Romans is the great fundamental epistle, as we have often observed. I refer to it now as that which treats of life in the Spirit, the secret of fruit-bearing. But Colossians is more than that. It is assumed that they have love for all the saints, which is a great evidence of the power of the Spirit in them. The Spirit is hardly mentioned in Colossians, His work is in evidence more. In Romans the Spirit is very prominent, but in Colossians it is the effect of the Spirit: the evidences of life are there, but there was a need of recognizing the Head. The Colossians were amiss on that line, and the Christ is brought in in His personal dignity as Head, which they were to hold. They were to hold the Head. He was the source of everything for them. There is nothing much said about the sphere of things in Colossians, because the point was to get Christ into their hearts in His position as Head. But when you come to Ephesians the sphere is introduced almost immediately. God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavens. It is where the thing is in Ephesians, and so we are raised up and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. So in the third chapter we have the length, breadth, and height and depth; it is a question of the domain or sphere of things.
GWH In Ephesians you “grow up into him in all things”.
JT In all things Quite so.
WHF I was wondering what bearing this would have upon us at present?
JT It seems to me, that it is of immense moment to us to have opened up the scope of the truth in that way. In the day of small things we are to have all the truth, although compatibility may not always be apparent: especially the truth which relates to the house of God. If we love the truth we want all the truth, because the truth is to be loved and every item of it must be held in our souls. It seems as if these prophets were used of God to bring in the great features of the truth that had been communicated in the Old Testament; the truth of the house of God and the land. The latter was given to them according to purpose.
WHF All centred in Christ, and, as I understand it, in Old Testament scriptures you get certain details that help in regard to the New Testament.
JT Details that are not found in the New Testament, and hence the importance of the Old Testament and the understanding of it so as to fill out the truth in our souls.
RLC In Galatians the apostle reminds those to whom he wrote of the blessing that once “ye spake of” There was the taking note of what God had given and which they had lost the sense of He reminds them of brighter days. They had lost the sense of it.
JT As Jehovah reminded Israel, through Jeremiah, of their brighter days. He says, “I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when ... ... Israel was holiness unto the Lord”, Jeremiah 2: 2, 3.
FL “When thou wentest after me”, showing there had been that response. The prophet Zechariah [p. 85] is in a measure a condensation of the whole of the Old Testament. With Haggai and Malachi, it is the closing word of the Old Testament testimony, and brings it all up and connects it, typically, with Christ. Everything is summarised and brought up to a definite and ordered conclusion. We are established in those things now. So when He speaks to Nathaniel about sitting under the fig-tree we are supposed to understand the reference. And the same applies to many other references in the New Testament. This is especially evident in the book of Revelation.
JT They “searched the scriptures daily, whether these things were so”. This shows how Old Testament scriptures were regarded as confirmatory of what was presented in the gospel.
FL So when the Lord spoke to the disciples of being the True Vine, the significance of that is to be understood by seeing what the vine had been before.. The Lord does not repeat those things. He assumes that we know.
WCR What were you going to say about the carpenters?
JT It is remarkable that it should be such that God should use to overthrow these great powers. It suggests to my mind that in meeting evil God is constructive as well as destructive. A military man destroys. Anyone who goes in the wake of an army knows what it does. Destruction is there. But a carpenter is not for destruction, but for construction, so that in casting out, or fraying the horns of the Gentiles, you have something built up for God. That was what marked the ministry of Christ and it was what marked the apostles’ ministry, especially Paul. He has power for destruction, but he had power for construction, and that was what he delighted in.
AFM Are these four horns the four great monarchies spoken of in [p. 86] Daniel?
JT I think so. Indeed it is said so formally at the end of this chapter. “These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem”.
JB When speaking of constructive work done by the carpenters, it would be to displace the horns by that which God would bring in and build up.
FL It is very remarkable and one would regard it with reverence, that when the Lord was here on earth, He was a carpenter. He was the Carpenter of Nazareth.
WCR He said, “The Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them”.
AFM Why four carpenters?
JT I suppose the reference is to what is universal.
AFM All other kingdoms are to be annulled and Christ’s kingdom fill the whole earth. Compare Daniel 2: 35, 44.
FL I suppose there is no doubt that four horns have reference to the four Gentile kingdoms. There was that adequate from the side of God to overthrow every one of those powers, until finally He reaches that which is eternally established.
JT Showing that the power God brought in to deal with this universal human power was commensurate, and more than that, “Because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world”. (1 John 4: 4) That is, the Lord in His ministry met all this in principle in the power of the Spirit, and so did the apostles. Finally these powers, or what represents them at the end, shall be overthrown, their place taken by Christ’s kingdom.
RLC The Lord was displeased with two of His disciples when they demanded fire to come down from heaven. The point now is construction, not destruction.
JB It is very encouraging to notice in a day like Zechariah’s, which answers to the present day, that we find these four carpenters who are indicative of the way by which God works to establish His thoughts.
[p. 87] JT It seems to me that the great point for us to see is that our business is construction, to be building up. However small our work may be, it is part of that which is going to supersede all this that is going on.
AFM Paul was regarded as a wise architect, and he gives a word to others to take heed how they build. It is on that line you are speaking, is it not?
JT Yes The Lord says, “On this rock I will build my assembly”. So Paul lays a foundation, and others are to build on it. Christianity is marked by building or construction.
WHF Christianity in its fulness begins with Paul. Paul was called out sovereignly, after Stephen’s testimony. He was the chosen vessel to unfold the mystery of the assembly in connection with the counsel of God.
JT He was the “wise architect”, and so laid the foundation. He had the whole plan of the building in his mind and it was to be indicated to those who could build with him.
FL In other words, if we did not have the ministry of Paul we should not have the full light of Christianity; up till his call God had been recognising Israel in His patient grace.
JT Things were in a transient sort of state. But the foundation Paul laid ignored Jewish privileges. The building or construction is such an important feature of the testimony, because we are not so many individuals simply. According to Romans we are taken up as individuals and set up before God; but even Romans laid the basis for unity. We are one body in Christ in Romans 12; not of Christ yet. We are not so many individuals acting in our individual capacity in relation to God. We have relations one to another, and without that you could not have the idea of construction. All has reference to the underlying fact that we are one body. The [p. 88] point for each is to see that he has part in the building; and not only that I am of the structure, but, in my measure, I am a constructor.
WCR The word edify suggests that. It is continually presented in Scripture that we are to edify one another.
JT Quite. “But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ”. (Ephesians 4: 7) He would have that in view in the gift He gives to each of us, so that as we have two or three together this principle of construction becomes immediately applicable. That with which God intended to meet the power of destruction is thus apparent. That is the testimony.
JB In verses 18 - 21 you get an encouraging contrast: “Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, four horns; And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem. And the Lord showed me four carpenters”.
JT Yes, “The Lord showed me”. The Lord would have the prophet know the means and manner of dealing with the evil.
JB If we are exercised the Lord will show us not only that which is going to meet the power of evil and do away with it, but that by which He will establish everything that He has purposed.
JT That is the thought that for the moment should lay hold of our hearts. We are on the constructive line and if you have two or three it may become evident.
FL One who is really formed in his soul in the teaching of Romans is a finished stone, ready to be put in the building.
JT What you notice in connection with the truth of the epistle is that we are not said to be the body of Christ, but “one body in Christ”, Romans 12: 5.
[p. 89] It is our relation to one another that is in view there; the thought of the body of Christ is greater than that; it is for His display. Romans, in this respect, saves us from independency. Being one body in Christ, all fleshly effort in the unity is precluded.
AFM I was going to remark that just prior to that the believer is seen as presenting his own body, and then upon that comes the truth of our being one body in Christ. We could not be said to be that before presenting our individual bodies a living sacrifice.
JT Your will would be active unless you had presented your body to God.
WCR I did not follow your point about being one body in Christ.
JT Romans 12 says, “For, as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office; thus we, being many, are one body in Christ, and each one members one of the other”. The point I made was, that it is not the body of Christ in Romans. That is Colossians and Ephesians, but in Romans it is so many believers together in unity. Before you can speak of the body of Christ you must first recognise the unity that is proper and normal among brethren, and that is what Romans teaches. It is a question of our relation one to the other.
WHF Does the body come in to correct independency?
JT It is brought in for that in Romans, I think.
WHF But quite a different aspect from what you get in Ephesians.
FL And completely opposed to all in Christendom, where bodies are organised on human lines of organisation for different beneficial, uplifting and reform purposes.
JT It would be out of all reason to say, that all these bodies are “in Christ”. Is Christ divided?
FL It is a great bond. Where are you to find unity now? You get it in Christ.
GWH In order to build you would require wisdom.
JT I think so. To build effectively one must have clearly the architect’s plans. In 1 Corinthians 3 the apostle says, “Let each see how he builds upon it”. He had set the idea before them in Corinth, and now he says, “For other foundation can no man lay beside that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ”. It is not Christ Jesus there, but Jesus Christ. It is that order of Man. He would not have any other, and so all the after-builders must see to it that the material used must be of this kind.
GWH So in leading believers your exercise would be to present Christ in some light to meet them in their present need.
JT That is it. The order of Man you would be exercised about presenting would be Jesus Christ. Otherwise you could not bring in the constructive idea at all, because if you bring in what is in connection with any other man you have material that has to come under judgment.
WHF Spurious material.
JT Exactly. It would be spurious, “wood, hay, stubble”.
AFM So it is important that the superstructure in the soul be of the same kind as the foundation.
JT Yes, and I think Romans is the great foundation epistle, because one reckons one’s self dead to sin, and alive unto God in Christ Jesus. That is how you are alive, not in any other sense; all that is not in Christ Jesus is spurious.
WHF Is it because we are weak on that side we have so often to turn to this epistle?
JT The Spirit of God seems to have to remind us of it always, but you see in this passage how much [p. 91] the purpose of God is before the mind of the Spirit. He says in the nineteenth verse: “these are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem”; these latter expressions involving God’s purpose. And then it says: “These are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it” God has the land in His mind.
AFM That introduces chapter two, the holy land, as you were saying.
J.T. Yes The idea of the four horns was to scatter.
JT It says, “No man did lift up his head”: the power was so absolute, that there was no resisting it.
RLC When the mighty works of Jesus were taken note of they were offended in Him, because they said, “Is not this the carpenter’s son?”(Matthew 13: 55) They were offended in Him, because of His humble, lowly origin; but He was on right constructive lines.
FL These things are dependent really upon the prophet, and the priest, and the king; and Christ is the Prophet, and He is the Priest, and He is the King. I hope when we get on a little further in the book we shall be able to see how those functions are exercised by Christ in bringing about the establishment of the divine system, and bringing in the purpose of God.