THE PURPOSE OF GOD IN A DAY OF SMALL THINGS
[p. 92] THE PURPOSE OF GOD IN A DAY OF SMALL THINGS
JT This “man with a measuring line” is very interesting. The thought of measurement is prominent in Scripture.
AFM What does measuring generally suggest?
JT One thought in it is that God takes account of what may be in view, as, for instance, you “measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not”, Revelation 11: 1, 2. What is measured and what is not measured suggests, on the one hand, what God takes account of and is interested in, and, on the other hand, there may be profession which He does not take account of, what is not for the moment under His eye as of interest to Him; indeed it is to be given over for judgment.
AFM He really measures what can be measured morally.
FL “Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein. For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about”. The thought of measurement seems superseded by the thought of the Lord’s personal environment and glory.
JT The introduction of measurement here is very significant. In Ezekiel measurements are given, and so in Revelation 21, but in Revelation 11, which I quoted a moment ago, and here, we have no definite measurements, only the thought of measurement.
JB Is this measurement in regard of future blessing or did it refer to their present condition?
JT I think here it is all in view of the counsel of God. It is a question of the sphere to which [p. 93] His counsel or purpose, applied, so it is the breadth and length only, as regards Jerusalem, but in Ephesians it is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height. Whilst in Ephesians we have not the measurements given, yet we are to know them; “that ye may know what”. That seems to be a very great test as to spiritual power and apprehension.
FL Does not that in Ephesians bring in what is really impossible to earth, the depth and height. A fourth dimension in material things really does not exist. It seems to come in as we touch heavenly things. Does it not suggest that we are on a different line there?
JT Yes, that is very interesting. Ephesians shows we have to do with heavenly things, so that it may be said, “Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens”. (Ephesians 4: 9, 10) The measurements are spiritual, and, although not given formally, they are to be known, and it seems as if it would be the greatest test you could get as to spiritual apprehension and power. “I bow my knees to the rather of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named, in order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts, being rooted and founded in love, in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height. And to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God”, (Ephesians 3: 14 - 19)
FL That is interesting as throwing light upon the heavenly. There is that which passes knowledge, yet we know it. Now we could not say that in [p. 94] connection with what is merely earthly. We are on lines here that are earthly, but in Ephesians there comes in that which is heavenly.
JB Is that your thought in the fourth dimension; “to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge”?
FL Yes. That connects with depth and height, as was just quoted. The dimensions are His descent and ascent, and what is involved in that is knowable, but yet it “passeth knowledge”.
WHF Would that take in the whole divine system, the breadth, length, depth and height?
JT The whole domain in which the divine glory is to be displayed.
WH Where Christ is to be displayed in time and eternity? Ephesians 3 makes it very clear that it is eternity, as well as time.
JT So it runs on in that passage: “to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”.
AFM What about the standard? We have a standard of weight in Scripture; is there a standard of measurement I think there is, and Ephesians applies there too. “The measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”. I suppose He is the measure.
AFM I was thinking of the difference in Revelation, when the city was measured it was “according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel”. (Revelation 21:17) Would that be a parallel thought?
JT I thought so.
FL In Revelation 21 the dimensions are taken from Christ.
JT But they are presented finitely, besides there are only three there, length, breadth and height.
JB A cubit is the measurement of a man’s arm.
JT [p. 95] I suppose the basis of all measurement is in some part of a man.
JB We say. foot because we measure by the foot; anciently they measured by the arm.
AFM A span also.
WHF The city spoken of in Revelation 21, in the beginning of the chapter is presented as the bride; the tabernacle in which God will dwell in the eternal state. John sees the holy city, descending from God, then it goes on to say, “I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men.”. A divine statement in regard of the heavenly city, in view of the eternal state. Then further on in the same chapter John is taken to a high mountain and sees the same city coming down in relation to the millennial earth.
JT And there you get the measurement.
FL You do not get the measurement for the eternal thought, the tabernacle of God. I suppose the use of the term “tabernacle” is to give the simplest thought of dwelling possible. What it expresses is the magnitude of the thought that it is God dwelling. It is tabernacle, not temple or palace.
JT So “the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us”. That was the simplest conceivable form. He became a Man amongst men, moved about in the most ordinary circumstances of life, yet God was dwelling there.
FL Yes, just so. If I speak of a palace or temple you at once get an idea of the greatness of the building, but a tabernacle is the simplest form of dwelling.. In the tabernacle in the wilderness the great thought is the ark, and in the tabernacle in Revelation 21 the great thought is God dwelling. The Word became flesh and so God was manifested in flesh.
JT “The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as [p. 96] of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth”. All there in the simplest and most humble form and circumstances. It is very touching that the glory of such a blessed, divine relationship should be related to His dwelling “among us”.
WHF All that was there when Christ was down here as Man?
JT Yes, quite so. So that evidently God’s relations with men will be of the simplest form, and yet infinite in their import and blessedness.
JB Speaking of this measurement, the measure of Jerusalem, is that in answer to the fourteenth and sixteenth verses of the first chapter? The Lord says, “I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy. And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction. Therefore thus saith the Lord, I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies”. Now it is taken account of.
JT Yes, a man was to take the measurement, not an angel. Then further you have, “Run, speak to this young man”. You have a man with a measuring line in his hand and the young man to be instructed. The young man here is suggestive.
A.F.M. Of what?
JT He is suggestive of living interest, freshness, and energy of youth, as in the things of God.
FL It is suggestive at the end. The young man is there, and in this present day the Lord has brought into view vitality in the young men.
JT And does it not show too, that where there is interest, as there evidently was in. Zechariah, you get light? See the message to the young man: “Speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein”. What a message that would be to this young man, when things were very [p. 97] small, and in fact a lethargic state had settled down in Jerusalem Here is the mind of God as to what would be.
AFM There was not a wall up, or gate, at that time, and very few people there actually, so, as you say, it would be very encouraging to him.
FL “For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her”. He speaks that in connection with what was evidently a heap of ruins. This young man in that heap of ruins saw something; and there are young men in the present day who are brought under test and trial, and are passing through the furnace; they could abandon all that and strike out on another line, but they do not, and it is because the light that comes to them from God is that the thing, which is outwardly of no import, is really sustained of Himself and has got wonderful promise in it, and they go in for it.
WCR The young man becomes constructive; certainly Zechariah was. See Ezra 5:1, 2.
JT In the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, and these two prophets, it is the light of what shall be that is put before the eyes of those addressed. When they saw the foundation of the temple laid, the old men recalled what had been and wept. No doubt a right sentiment in a way, but it was the old who wept over what had been. The young ones, of course, could not recall what had been, but they are shown what shall be; that is, the latter glory of the house. It should exceed the former, and it seems to me that today the Holy Spirit is directing our hearts to what shall be. If it be a question of order, or commandments, or that which should govern us in our relations to one another here, of course it is what has been that is the test. Everything is tested by that which was from the beginning. There is no deviation in that regard, because the principles that governed [p. 98] at the first govern now, and will continue on to the end, but as regards what God can do and will do, there is something greater coming in, and that was what encouraged me about this book, that it opens up to us what shall be, so that our hearts may be at rest as to what is going on outwardly with the assembly or the world. This book, connected with what we get in the New Testament, opens up to us the mind and purpose of God. Of course we have the length and breadth here only, but we can easily supply the other, the height and depth, and its strengthens our hearts as regards what exists today.
WHF It seems to me, that God would delight to lead us on to these things which He has in His own mind to bring to pass manifestly before the universe.
AFM At the beginning of the revival eighty or ninety years ago, recovery was brought about through young men, was it not?
JT Yes Grey hairs are to be valued if found in the ways of righteousness, and the elders in Revelation suggest experience in the things of God; but energy for conflict and for testimony always seems to be found with the young. It is God’s way. “Ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you”. (1 John 2: 14) It is a shame for the young men if it is not so, because it is the divine way.
DR In speaking of young men having an interest in what is of God in the midst of distressing conditions, would you say you get an example of it in the ease of Joshua, a young man who departed not from the tabernacle, and knew what was according to God when there was not much outwardly.
JT He was a remarkable illustration of what we have been speaking of; and we know there was development in him.
WHF Should we not carry with us the freshness of youth all along the line, as we further develop in things?
FL Moses is a good example. His “eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated”, (Deuteronomy 34: 7) and he carried his experience with him at 120 years of age. I have often said to the young men, ‘You can know much more than I do and be deeper in things than I am, but I have one thing you have not; that is experience’. Now Moses seemed to carry both the experience, and energy, vitality and devotedness to the end.
WHF I was thinking too of Jacob. He was the brightest of the whole of them, although his path was very zig-zag; he comes out brighter than any of them in the end, because he blesses the sons of Joseph while worshipping, leaning on the top of his staff. He had a bright finish, and I think the older ones of us ought to go in for that.
JT In making comparisons we should note, that there are no warnings in connection with the “fathers” in John’s epistle. The young men are exhorted not to love the world. Although they were strong and the word of God was abiding in them, yet there was the danger of loving the world. And so with Timothy: “Flee also youthful lusts”. (2 Timothy 2: 22)
WHF The “fathers” had tried the world no doubt. They had proven it by experience, which the young men had not and were therefore in danger of being attracted by it.
JT The light conveyed in this message should be very encouraging to the “young man”, as it should be to us now. “Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein. For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her”. We can perhaps add to that what He is giving to us now. It is open to us to know something about the wall and the presence of the Lord in the midst.
FL The term “in the midst” is one that the Lord evidently likes in connection with remnant [p. 100] times. It comes three times in this chapter. Then in Zephaniah 3: “In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not; and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love; he will joy over thee with singing”. So in verse 12 of the same chapter: “I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord”. These are expressions that one hardly finds used of the people at their best estate.
JT And this word particularly: “I ... ... will he the glory in the midst of her”.
AFM Do we have first the city developed, and re-established for God, and then the holy land? Is that what is in your mind?
J .T. Yes. First the city, I think, definitely taken account of, inhabited, dwelt in, protected. Then, that light being introduced, you have the thought of the gathering of all the people.
FL I would like to suggest that in that verse on which you have been dwelling that, in effect, it is the Lord restoring the shekinah. That is, the shekinah was taken up from out of the material temple and God could find no dwelling place there. Ezekiel sees it going away. Here it is seen replaced. He says, My glory shall dwell - “I ... ... will be the glory in the midst of her”.
JT You get the fact of the glory being there, and the wall, then the appeal to all the people. “Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord. Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon. For thus saith the Lord of hosts, After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you; for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye”. Now that is a remarkable message; it is an appeal to the scattered ones to come to the gathering centre; to come to God out of their different places of captivity.
JB Would the force of Zion here be the people of God’s choice? Sometimes Zion is used for the city; sometimes for a principle; but here it would seem to be the people.
JT It would be the people, because it is “that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon”. It would be the people taken account of in that way, in captivity. They say. “How shall we sing the Lord’s song in a strange land?” That would show they felt it.
AFM Would not this seventh verse be a strong appeal to people in systems today?
JT That is the application of it now. You see if you have the truth of the assembly revived, with all its bearings, the presence of the Lord and the protection of fellowship, then the following statement applies: “After the glory, hath he sent me unto the nations that made you a spoil; for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye”. Things are established, in principle at least, and now the invitation, or the appeal, that there should be an escape; and mark, it is “Escape Zion”. It was for her to do, to deliver herself.
FL It is akin to what we get in the second of Revelation. That is, Thyatira, or Babylon, and the Lord makes an appeal to “the rest”, or remnant, that is in that entanglement. He reaches His desired end in Philadelphia, where “in the midst” would apply.
WCR You did not say anything about the “wall of fire”.
JT That is clearly divine protection. I suppose the young man would feel that the walls were desolate,
[p. 102] broken down. He would feel keenly the position, as any exercised brother does now, but instead of being depressed and dejected on account of that, the heart is encouraged by this light.
FL So Elisha asked the Lord to open the eyes of the young man to see the environment of the, hosts of the Lord around the prophet, and greater were those for Elisha than those against him.
JT That is what we need now, to see how things are going. The Lord is with His people and the assurance of that in your soul enables you to extend a word of appeal to the people of God in Babylon; and you clothe them with divine thoughts. If I meet a brother who is a Presbyterian, it is not the Presbyterian that is in my mind at all; I regard him according to God’s thoughts about him. These people were deeply mixed up in Babylon, but they are clothed here with divine thoughts - “Zion”. How different a Christian appears to you, whether an Episcopalian, a Methodist, or whatever he may be, when you regard him from the divine side; he is a brother to you. He belongs to Christ and you clothe him with the divine thought, and appeal to him in that light. Such an attitude will have a great effect on him if he is exercised.
GWH He really belongs to Zion, so to speak, and you bring the light of the city to him.
AFM How is it he does not come to the city That, of course, would admit of inquiry as to the various influences holding Christians in these denominations.
AFM So few are helped.
FL Think of the wonderful light that was given from God following upon the decree of Cyrus, but how many were influenced? Supposing Zechariah had gone back, as others did, to Babylon, and found a Jew on the streets of Babylon, and would say, Why are you not influenced by what God has done in [p. 103] opening the door for you to return to Jerusalem? His answer, unless God worked with him, would probably be: I have my business, my position, or something or other that interferes; but Zechariah would undoubtedly not confuse him with an Assyrian or Persian It may be comparatively easy to find many of the Lord’s people, but when you come to influencing them, that is another matter.
W H F. The reason why men, even real Christians, are not affected is, to some extent, because we are so feeble in the power of the truth ourselves; we are so little livingly in touch with the Lord, that we are not able to approach others and ready to be used of the Lord in taking the precious from the vile, as we get in Jeremiah. The Lord says, “If thou return, then will I bring thee again, and thou shalt stand before me: and if thou take forth the precious from the vile thou shalt be as my mouth: let them return unto thee but return not thou unto them”, Jeremiah 15:19 One feels, that if one reallywere affected by the light we have, one would have more influence. I suppose we all have to admit that.
WHF I have thought sometimes that really the deliverance of souls, and their coming out into the path of separation, is connected with the sovereignty of God. It must be the work of God that brings them cut of these things. It was the work of God with myself, I am sure of that.
JT But our responsibility remains, as you have indicated; and it is well to bear in mind that the ministry, or testimony, of any brother is not only for those with whom he may be immediately connected, but towards all; the bearing of service is towards all.
GWH “Every man”.
JT At any rate, I mean now in regard of deliverance, your service is toward “Zion”, so to speak; that is, those that are of the assembly. You want them.
GWH Whether a Christian is a Presbyterian or Methodist, you should have it before you to serve him, that he might be delivered. You wish to carry the light of God to that man.
FL But in a practical way (in reference to what our brother was saying), the wall of fire works two ways, While it is a protection for what is encircled in it, at the same time it works upon the flesh, and the flesh is not willing to pass through it; those that come within the protection of that fire have to come by the way of self judgment.
AFM When Ezra left Babylon, there was quite a company with him. Both Ezra and Nehemiah are marked by prayer. I was thinking in that connection of what a lack of prayer there is for those outside. I, question whether we enter into the seriousness of the thing in that way, by presenting it to God. What do you think about that?
JT I am sure Paul in saying, “The Lord knoweth them that are his”, (2 Timothy 2: 19) was comforted. He had them all in his own heart. The second letter to Timothy shows how he had this one and that one in his heart. Although some turned away, as Demas, Paul had them all in his heart, so he instructs Timothy; “in meekness setting right those who oppose, if God perhaps may sometime give them repentance to acknowledgment of the truth, and that they may awake up out of the snare of the devil, who are taken by him, for his will”, 2 Timothy 2: 26. This is the attitude of the servant, and one in such an attitude is sure to be marked by prayer.
WCR When things are recovered it is good to see that they are recovered on the original basis; that is, as to the largeness of it. When they return from the captivity of Babylon they set the wall up [p. 105] on its original foundation. It was large enough to embrace every one.
JT At that time the city was said to be large, but there were few people in it; but the word to faith here says, “Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein”. This is what should be before us; it would be an incentive in our service. While things are small, we should always have before us what shall be, according to the sure purpose of God.
GWH In reading the epistle to the Ephesians, do you read it in the light of the future?
JT Yes, it is written in the light of the future. That is what is in view. It gives the place of the assembly in the purpose of God, in the future; “For the administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth”, Ephesians 1: 10. F.L. Very often we speak of Ephesians as though it only comprised the first three chapters, but there are three more. You have to read the first three in the light of the future, and get the bearing and influence of that light upon the present.
JH So you would have saints moved by the thoughts of God for them?
JT That is the thought, and this appeal to the scattered ones I think is very important now, because the trend amongst the saints is to narrowness of affection, whereas the Spirit of God would keep before us the whole number of the saints. “Deliver thyself O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon”. We want the saints in all relations to be delivered and to be together.
JH “Walk about Zion, and go round about her; tell the towers thereof. Mark ye well her bulwarks, consider her palaces; that ye may tell it to the generation following”, Psalm 48:12. We should consider the thing in [p. 106] perfection.
JT I think so, and thus we can convey the light of it to the generation following.
JB This would be the full value of the prophetic word.
JT Quite. The messenger here really, I think, is Christ in spirit, because it says, “After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you”. Then again in the eleventh verse: “thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee”.
AFM What is in your mind in making it a point in this chapter that we have the holy land? You have been dwelling a good deal upon Zion and Jerusalem. Is the land secured when the city is inhabited and God’s glory is there?
JT Yes. The land is, of course, a larger thought than the city.
FL And “all flesh” is a wider thought still. It really suggests the circles you get in the twenty-second psalm. At the end of the second chapter here we reach a definite conclusion; God is risen up in His habitation. Then another end is reached at the end of chapter 3, the millennium reached by the people. The nations come in too, as seen in verse 11 of our chapter: “Many nations shall join themselves to Jehovah in that day, and shall be unto me for a people”. Thus there is a correspondence with Psalm 22 where we see how all the circles of blessing are the result of the one great sacrifice of Christ.
JT All flesh is to be silent here. There are many voices now, but all the product of the flesh. In that day there shall be but one voice. “Be silent, O all flesh, before the Lord: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation”. It also appears that the Lord was valued in the midst of His people. How every voice is hushed as God is known as “risen up out of his holy habitation”. Compare 1 Corinthians 14.
JB It was in David’s time that God chose Jerusalem, “the mount Zion, which he loved”. Now he chooses Jerusalem again it says.
JT His choice is once for all. He has really never been diverted from it, from the standpoint of His purpose as to the earth: but now He is risen up (or perhaps “is awaked”) in it. Choosing it here would refer to His return to Jerusalem in the future to accomplish His original thought. Jerusalem is desolate now, but presently God will awake there and speak, and rule there, so that all the nations shall be subdued and hushed.
JB He does not choose some other city on earth?
JT No, it is the same one as of old. It is “the city of the great King”.
FL The consummation there is the same as we get in the fourteenth chapter, when the Lord’s feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, and then it goes on to say, “At evening time it shall he light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem”, and “The Lord shall be king over all the earth; in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one”. The climax is reached in the second chapter, and comes up again in the fourteenth chapter.
JT You have the singing here. “Sing aloud and rejoice, daughter of Zion; for behold, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith Jehovah”. First there is the deliverance, then the promise to dwell in the midst, and they are to sing on account of it.
FL What is your thought about the singing?
JT I suppose it is triumph. She has come to answer to the appeal, delivering herself. She did not sing in the place of their captivity, she could not, but now she may sing. Singing is the expression, I think, of complete deliverance.
FL All oppression, and burden, and captivity and want are gone, and there is liberty and freedom of spirit.