PROPHECY IN VIEW OF LIFE AND UNITY
[p. 307] PROPHECY IN VIEW OF LIFE AND UNITY
JT A word about life and its relation to unity may help us; so that the thought is not to take up the chapter prophetically, but in its present bearing. One thing that helps in the chapter is the place that prophecy has in relation to life and unity: while the life is developing the mind of God is brought in constantly. The divine element therefore enters into our beings in the form of life. At the outset, in Adam for instance, there was nothing of this kind, no idea of the mind of God being pressed in on Adam. He was formed, as you might say, immediately by an act of God, but the forming here is in relation to the mind of God forced in, in the power of gift and the prophetic word.
Ques Must there be death before life?
JT Well, that is true. The suggestion, of course, is a wide one, and the question is which death do you mean. The life that God purposed is a life out of death. Even before sin came into the world God established that principle of life out of death.
PL John peculiarly treats of life. Does he bring in the prophetic element in relation to the word to the seven churches as accompanying that? You referred to the mind of God accompanying His activities in life. John speaks of the breathing in chapter 20, and then throughout Revelation is the mind of God involved prophetically?
JT Well, the presence of life in Revelation corresponds very much with Ezekiel, but we should have to go to John’s gospel to get the direct teaching as to life, but whether it be here or in Revelation or in John’s gospel, the principle of the mind of God being forced in in the power of gift and the power of the Spirit is apparent. So that what is brought into life is in that [p. 308] way, in the very fibre of it, possessed of the mind of God, the moral element.
Ques Does Peter refer to it when he says that we are “born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God”, 1 Peter 1:23?
JT Very good; I think that helps. That is the seed really, but the idea of prophecy is more than the word. It is the mind of God brought in forcefully, and the bearing of it is the scene around us, so that the development is immune from the influence of the scene around. It is not simply something done by a divine act apart from the mind of God, as for instance, “He spoke, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast”, Psalm 33:9. There is no idea of the mind being in the development subjectively forced into it, nor is there in Adam’s case, but in view of the conditions with which we have to do as made to live, the idea of the prophetic element must come in, so that we have a life immune from the conditions around and in relation to a coming world. That is, it is a life in view of another world, and pertaining to another world, but capable of going through this world immune from its influences. “Whoever has been begotten of God does not practise sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God”, 1 John 3:9. I cite that as supporting the thought.
PL In the identification so intimate of Elisha with the child whom he raised, “his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands, and bent over him” 2 Kings 4:34, is there the implanting of the prophetic word accompanying the power of life?
JT That helps because the idea was that the child brought into life would be in relation to the prophetic eyes and the prophetic mouth.
[p. 309] Ques Is the prophetic word brought in sovereignly on the part of the individual who expresses the prophecy?
JT We have to consider the person who expresses it. Much place is given to Ezekiel in the book. What a man he was, so that he is qualified to serve in this way; he would himself have been formed so as to stand against the current evil of the world around him, and it is said here, “The hand of Jehovah was upon me, and Jehovah carried me out in the Spirit, and set me down in the midst of a valley; and it was full of bones. And he caused me to pass by them round about; and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and behold, they were very dry”. God is operating in relation to His servant; He is bringing him into what He is doing, so that he will be capable of understanding the result. Being with God, he goes round about and he is able to pass a judgment: “they were very dry”. So that he is intelligent in what is being done, and then he is questioned, “Shall these bones live?”. “And he said unto me, Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them, Ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live. And I will put sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live: and ye shall know that I am Jehovah. And I prophesied as I was commanded”. So that the mind of God is brought in in power. The dry bones are addressed; we have to dismiss the literal and understand that it is a figure. The literal, of course, is involved, but it is a figure. Dry bones refer to persons with ears to hear, and the mind of God is brought in upon them.
FW Do they represent the divine structure upon which God [p. 310] operates?
JT I think so; do you mean the structure of the body?
FW Yes. I thought perhaps there was some place where God starts with us, something that He can breathe into. He does not breathe into the old order, does He?
JT No; it is a completely new formation, so that I think the bones refer to the identity, that there is a complete change. They also enter into literal death and resurrection, and as with the bones of Joseph, they represent the identity.
FW They were very dry, indicating, I suppose, that all the past order had passed away.
JT That is the idea; there is no divine seed there.
FW But the identity goes through in the bones.
Ques Would Nicodemus be a subject in that way?
JT If you go back to chapter 36, he fits in there. We are further on than John 3, than new birth. Still, that chapter helps, so that what the Lord is propounding to Nicodemus is not simply something formed out of an inanimate thing; it is dead persons made to live. Bones represent the identity of the person in responsibility; he can be addressed, and he is addressed here. All that has to be done; it is a completely new man, and yet the identity remains.
FW I suppose the principle of recovery underlies this, because the old order is not exactly recovered, although the identity is there.
JT That is what I was thinking. You have nothing but very dry bones. That is the figure, but those bones, taken as representing persons, involve that there is responsibility. They are addressed, but they are very dry. There is nothing there from the divine side; all has to be done, and so you get, “Ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live”. That is,
[p. 311] you have bones, sinews, flesh and skin, and then breath. The breath is mentioned first, but it comes in in its order at the end. I am afraid that in dealing with the subject of life we take it up too much apart from this moral element, and the result is not satisfactory; the moral element is absent.
FW What do you mean by that?
JT The element that judges according to God is absent. In Ephesians we have the life of God; natural men were “estranged from the life of God” Ephesians 4:1, that is, it involves what God is in a moral sense, seen here in relation to what is here, whether in Christ or in us.
FW They are dead, in other words.
JT Yes; it is an exotic in principle, but with elements capable of judging what is there and resisting their influence. It is a subjective state brought about by this process.
RB Do you connect the moral element with the prophetic word?
JT Yes, the mind of God forced in in power.
RB Would you say just what you mean by forced in?
JT Prophecy is power in the way it is treated in Scripture. If you take it as a gift, it is the next after the apostolic gift. Apostolic ministry is authoritative, but prophetic ministry is moral; it forces the mind of God into the being. Being prophecy it deals with what is here, but it is the mind of God come in in a forceful way.
RB Then is your thought that the prophet is connected with the work of God and the other details allude to what the prophetic word secures?
JT Just so; even the breath is prophesied to here. “And he said unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. And I prophesied as he had commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet”.
AM Is the thought that as the life develops the mind of God is going on constantly, hidden, but in view of producing a corresponding answer in us to what is in the mind of God?
JT I think that is right. The prophesying continuing all through implies development. They stand on their feet. When a man stands on his feet now, what is he like? Is he just a forgiven man, or is he a man according to God, “the new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness”, Ephesians 4:24? The others, it is said in that same chapter are “estranged from the life of God by reason of the ignorance which is in them” Ephesians 4:1, and I think that the weakness very largely with us all is in the moral state that emanates in connection with righteousness, for that is where the basis is laid in the soul, where the judgment has been met in the death of Christ. That is the foundation of the moral structure, but then, there is the mind of God brought in as well in a prophetic way. All these elements come under it, the sinews, and the flesh and the skin, and they are all affected by it; every fibre in your being is affected by the mind of God forced in in this way upon you, so that you begin to feel that you cannot be otherwise, you must be this.
Ques Is the forcing that you have referred to necessary on account of opposition?
JT Of course, Romans helps us. The flesh is militant against all this, but I think it comes in with a measure of moral authority.
Ques Is that seen in the scripture here, “Prophesy over these bones”? Does that suggest the superiority of the prophesying?
JT I think so. These bones are the object of it, and this forceful kind of ministry is to affect them,
[p. 313] and thus every fibre, so to say, comes under the effect of the prophecy.
Ques Have we the moral side in the verse, “But he that practises the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they have been wrought in God”, John 3:21?
JT That is very good, and then, “If ye know that he is righteous, know that every one who practises righteousness is begotten of him”, 1 John 2:29. It is the moral element with us individually, not only in the presentation of righteousness in the death of Christ which is the foundation, but this prophesying; forcing in, as I said, of the mind of God as the development proceeds, and then the breath coming in finally; the breath itself having been prophesied to. As it says in verse 9, “Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain”. The idea of the four winds is a striking symbol as suggestive of power, as the breathing from heaven when the Holy Spirit came down. So that there is divine power on every side here in the development of life. It is not like the breath breathed by God into Adam’s nostrils, nor by the Lord into the disciples. It is the four winds; it is a matter of power.
GCS Is that seen in Acts 19:20, where it says that “the word of the Lord increased”? Acts 19:20. That would be in souls, would it not?
JT That is so. The idea of all this appears at Pentecost where there was a “violent impetuous blowing”, Acts 2:2. That remains all through the dispensation, and this illustrates it, how life in the believer is developed in relation to the mind of God brought in, not simply casually, or in Bible reading or speaking, but in power. The prophecy is imperative in regard of the matter in hand.
FW [p. 314] Do you think Moses in Numbers 21 was a forceful prophet in the bringing in of life? There was no other alternative, was there?
JT That is good. It is suggestive too because it comes in under the direction of the lawgiver. It is the same idea. The princes dug the well, which involves spiritual power, but it was “at the word of the lawgiver”. Numbers 21:18. It is not the symbol of wind there but water.
Rem If they did not look they did not live; that was the long and short of it.
JT Quite so. The idea of the wind as a symbol of the Spirit refers to the upper part of the being, the intelligent side, and that is what is in view here, the intelligent side of a man as made to live, and so he is according to the mind of God; he is like God in this world.
Ques Would all this be in view in 1 Corinthians? The apostle presses prophecy in chapter 14 with a view to living conditions.
JT I had in mind the place that prophecy has in the New Testament. It is the one thing to be desired above others: “Rather that ye may prophesy”, 1 Corinthians 14:1.
Ques Would the sinews come in in relation to tribulation?
JT Why do you ask that question?
Rem I was thinking of the strength of the person being developed, and the prophetic word coming in to bring in the mind of God in the tribulation in Romans 5.
JT That is very good: “Tribulation works endurance”. Romans 5:3 So that the inner fibre is developed, not only in intelligence but in strength. Sinews, flesh and skin; these are what are in view here.
PL So in the end of Mark do they stand up on their feet in the power of life? The Lord is presented [p. 315] peculiarly in His prophetic ministry in Mark’s gospel, and there is fibre with them, power to resist, taking up serpents and drinking any deadly thing and no injury. Would that go with this?
JT I think that is right; there is something there that is according to God.
RB From what you are saying, is there power in the prophetic gift to effect this? Is that the object for which the prophetic gift is given?
JT I think it had that place. After authority in the apostle, the next gift is prophecy, and it comes in peculiarly as from God. It is a gift that comes to the conscience and appeals to us as from God, His claim in a moral sense, so that the development reflects what God is, “the life of God”. Ephesians 4:18.
PL Would Paul thus serve prophetically when he says, “So that death works in us, but life in you”, 2 Corinthians 4:12? Would that be life implanted through the prophetic word?
JT I suppose death working in him would mean in his prayers for them, and all his anxiety about them. The unity of the Spirit would be life for them. It is an allusion to the subtle kind of way in which the whole of christianity is developed, so that any excess of self-judgment or bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus in you helps the whole assembly. I think it is to bring in the universal bearing of anything that goes on in any one of us; it bears on all.
LDM Is that the suggestion in the bones coming together?
JT I suppose the bones coming together is what underlies the man; as was remarked, it is the structure, unless the bones come together properly you will have malformation, so it is a very important thing that they should come together. You feel how dependent upon God you are at the very outset. If [p. 316] this is to be taken as a symbol of any one of us as God addresses us at the outset, it is most important that the fundamental things should be correct, that the structure should be right, otherwise there will be malformation. I think God’s thought is that there should not be malformation but that man should stand up, especially as Christ did here. The Man Christ Jesus stood up in the perfection of manhood under God’s eye.
GCS Would the flesh be what is seen, and if the bones are wrong what is represented of God before men will be wrong?
JT The skin is what is seen, that is to say, the complexion, the external effect of life. The beautification is on the skin, and that is no small part of the form of a man. The beautification that God puts on a human being is no small part. There is the framework, and the sinews, that is the strength; and the flesh which is the filling out, the lines, forming the grace that marks the person; and the skin that on which God can work out beautification. We have the idea in the Canticles in both speakers. It is a very important part; so we must have the skin; a healthy skin is important or we shall have poor complexions. The growth of hair is important, whether in the man or the woman; it is ornamental. You get it in figure in Psalm 133:2, “that ran down upon the beard”. All these things allude to ornamentation that God puts upon man, for the idea is not simply that there should be a beautiful framework but beautiful lines, as described in Canticles, a beautiful skin on which all the ornamentation is seen. God is filling His universe with beautiful beings all after Christ.
Ques Is it seen in David as having a beautiful complexion?
JT Exactly; that is what marked him. He was ruddy, and beautiful-eyed (1 Samuel [p. 317] 16:12).
HWS Are you viewing this as the prophetic word acting upon us individually to bring us into correspondence with Christ and one another?
JT That is the thought. Unity is in view, as you notice in the end of the chapter, but unity of beautiful persons, beautiful structure, beautiful lines and countenances and then the breath in power, because it is not the breathing of God here. It is a powerful thing, the four winds supplying the symbol of power. It is all the power there is represented in the element of wind. The Lord says, “The wind blows where it will”; John 3:8. He uses it in that sense.
Ques Is the thought of unity worked out in the bones coming together?
JT No; the thought of unity is in the two sticks in the second part of the chapter; you must have the two sticks for unity. It is this great thought of life developing, and it is seen in Judah and the children of Israel, his companions, and then in Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions. The expressions are very finely rendered in the names of the two sticks, Judah and Ephraim, and they become one in the hand of the prophet, that is typically in the hand of Christ. This great result in life is to be in the hand of Christ. It is not to be in the hand of the devil; we are never again to be in the hand of the devil or of this world with its organisations; we are to be in the hand of Christ. God is working with us to have us in the hand of Christ, and in that hand to become one stick instead of two. That is the idea of unity; you could not have a more striking figure of it, two sticks becoming one in His hand.
Ques You referred to the Spirit at the beginning of Acts; do you regard that as a kind of finish of the work so that the Spirit should come, the result of the prophetic word by [p. 318] the Lord?
JT That is good; they represent the Lord’s formation. He had breathed on them, and put the bones together and the sinews and so on.
Ques So the prophetic word comes into operation generally? There is first the apostolic gift, and then following that we get the prophet’s work. The assembly at the outset was the result of prophetic ministry, but they had no word as we have today.
JT Exactly. What you see in Peter’s preaching was three thousand converted, and they just stand up and Peter and the others tell them what is to be done. They are to repent and be baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus, and they should receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. That was clear. Now what took place in them? That is the next thing. Well, it is said that three thousand were added that day. Acts 2:41. We are not told who added them nor to what they were added. They were added to something, so what follows is to bring out this very result, the way the bones came together according to God, and the sinews came on and the flesh and the skin. I think the description at the end of the chapter shows that these results were present, and the Lord identified Himself with them in adding to that.
Ques What is the application of it today? That at the outset was practically done by the Lord.
JT It must be on the same principle. What is so needed in our services to men around us, in our preachings and the like, is to keep the element of prophecy in view. The preaching of the gospel of the kingdom or the gospel of the grace of God is all a question of grace, but prophesying is that the subjects of grace might be developed in the mind of God.
RB You mean that the prophetic word reaches the conscience?
JT That is what I thought.
[p. 319] Ques Is that to bring us into accord with what God is morally?
JT Exactly. The “life of God” Ephesians 4:18 does not refer to what He is in His own being in Deity, but what He is morally, as having come out in relation to what is here, men being alienated from it. It had come within their range, but instead of embracing it they were alienated from it through the ignorance in them, but over against that there is the “new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness”; Ephesians 4:24 it is “as the truth is in Jesus”. Ephesians 4:21.
FW What principles do you see here in Judah and Joseph?
JT Well, verses 11 to 14 give us the application of the figure, that it refers to Israel. He says, “I will put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land: and ye shall know that I Jehovah have spoken, and have done it”. That is the thought; we know it is God’s work and that He has done it. Well then, in verse 15, it says, “And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, And thou, son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel, his companions. And take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions. And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thy hand”. God is showing us how He will bring about unity in Israel by and by, but the point for us is that division may exist amongst us. Judah represents the selection of God for special privileges. Ephraim, that is Joseph, had also been selected; Ephraim had been set before Manasseh on the same principle on which Judah was taken up, but Ephraim had sacrificed his position. He had lost it, and having had it before Judah it necessarily produced jealousy, so that Judah vexed Ephraim and Ephraim envied Judah. These are conditions that are very common [p. 320] amongst the people of God, and they are not helped by mutual agreement to differ; there is no such thought as that here We may bear with one another and make up our minds we have got to go on with this and that one, but the right way is development of life in all that is according to God.
FW So that neither line can be dropped; neither the Judah line nor the Joseph line can be eliminated.
JT They become one stick, and the division ceases in the most positive way when they are one stick One stick is not divided, They had been two, but now one typically in the hand of Christ.
FW Would you say broadly they suggest the line of sovereignty and the line of responsibility?
JT I doubt it here I think the allusion here is to the fact that Israel had been a divided nation. Primarily Judah would represent sovereignty, but he became as naughty as Ephraim, so there is not much to say about it here, save that God brings about unity, and in this way, by working in us in the fibre of our beings on the principle of life. That is what is in view.
Ques Are they all coming under David as king?
JT That is what is in view David is to be their king, which of course is Christ; but first the stick is in the hand of the prophet; it is Christ as Prophet; He is Prophet, Priest and King. It is in Ezekiel’s hand. It is really Mark’s gospel, you might say, that you know why you are what you are; you not only know that you are this and that, but why you are it. “Ye shall know that I have done it”. Mark would give us the prophetic intelligence of things; it is the gospel that presents the Prophet, and that brings in unity on the line of the mind of God in life.
RB Is the effect of the prophetic word, as forced in in this power, that the element of envying and vexing would disappear, for the persons would be together in the unity of [p. 321] life?
JT That is what comes out, so that God works from the bottom. That is what is needed if there is a divided state of things, and if I judge myself, then this principle proceeds and God works from the bottom. There is nothing brought about in us aside from self-judgment. God works from the bottom as soon as that takes place, otherwise the work is superficial.
Ques Does that answer to the Lord’s exhortation to cut off the members?
JT The repenting sinner is the principle. We never lose the thought of repentance in the divine procedure; the element of repentance is ever present. “God has to the nations also granted repentance to life”, Acts 11:18. That is what is in view. God wants us to live; not simply to be justified, but to live, and to live in the life according to Himself.
Ques Would Philadelphian features be the outcome of life, in contrast to the word to Sardis: “Thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead”? Revelation 3:1.
JT That is very good; they kept the word of His patience. There was “a little power”, Revelation 3:8 which would mean what we are speaking of, which is life, for the Spirit is life. It is a question of power, and they had kept the word of His patience. I think that Philadelphia in the midst of the general apostasy represents God morally. What God is, is represented, and so, in Revelation, the first note you get from the Lord is a voice behind John and he turned to see the voice, which was a very remarkable thing. It shows the intelligence that was with John, that that voice came from a Person. It is the identification of the voice with the Person, and John sees the Lord in judicial garb, and falls at His feet as dead; and the Lord puts His right hand upon him and says, “Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one: and I became dead”. Revelation 1:17,18. That is, there is a Person before him; he sees a living Person, living according to God. “I am ... the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages” Revelation 1:17,18. Well, that is the principle of life in Revelation, and following on that, you have the living creatures, and life in varied aspects; that is the thought.
PL The thought of writing is emphasised. It says, “Take thee one stick, and write upon it”, and then, “Take another stick, and write upon it”, and then later, “The sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thy hand before their eyes”. Would that answer a little to Christ writing in new covenant ministry?
JT I think so. When the Lord laid His right hand on John He had already told him to write in a book and send to the seven assemblies, but after He laid His right hand upon him He says, “Write”, but He does not say to whom, and He divides the book into sections and gives them the headings: “What thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these”. Revelation 1:19. He would write in life. There is a living touch in it, and so the Lord says to the overcomer in Philadelphia, “I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name”. Revelation 3:12. Well, all that would be in accord with what we are saying, that is, what is according to God is written upon the man, the “name of my God”. That must all work out in a moral sense in relation to what is here.
PL So that the revival involves the glory of Christ both as Speaker, the Prophet, and as Writer.
JT Then as King; David is king. I think it is well to note it is the prophet that holds the sticks in his hand, because it is for the Lord in that light to have them in His hand, and in any gathering where these conditions may be, the Lord would bring this about. The prophet comes in, well, the state of the [p. 323] saints is very dry; there is no interest in the meetings. The bones are very dry, the prophet says. If one comes into a meeting in this way and finds things very dry, prophecy is needed, prophesying over them and to them, and then the bones come together. Because as I think of the bones, well, what am I to be? I must stand up like a man, and that is what it says they did; they “stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army”. And then the idea of unity will come in, so that the unity in the gathering is the unity of life in the hands of the prophet, and then under the authority of king David, because David is a beautiful type of Christ in the very sense in which we are speaking. He is a living kind of man; he began by being beautiful. The young man that saw him said, “He is a valiant man and a man of war, and skilled in speech, and of good presence, and Jehovah is with him”, 1 Samuel 16:18. That is the kind of man that is to be over us.
GCS This is in contrast to the staff Beauty and the staff Bands broken because these features were not seen.
JT Exactly. Now you have here that the covenant is one of peace: “And I will make a covenant of peace with them: it shall be an eve lasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. And my tabernacle shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the nations shall know that I Jehovah do hallow Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever”. It seems to me a chapter like this bears on any gathering. It is the mind of God brought in in this way, unity established in life, and His sanctuary known there as we are hallowed by Him.
Ques Do we get the thought of the universal idea of the assembly [p. 324] there?
JT Quite; it is no longer two but one.
Rem There is the local assembly where the thing is worked out, and then you have the universal idea.
JT It is all Israel that is in view.
Rem It speaks of the sanctuary being in the midst of them twice, and the tabernacle being over them.
JT It shows the idea of the sanctuary in the midst of us is a leading thought here. The tabernacle over is for shelter; that is, it is the care of God.
GCS Are they the conditions in which God can dwell?
JT Exactly; His sanctuary.