5. RELATIONS IN WHICH GOD IS KNOWN - GOD KNOWN IN THE ASSEMBLY IN RELATION TO THE MILLENNIUM AND ETERNITY
[p. 464] 5. RELATIONS IN WHICH GOD IS KNOWN - GOD KNOWN IN THE ASSEMBLY IN RELATION TO THE MILLENNIUM AND ETERNITY
Revelation 21: 22 - 27; Revelation 21: 2 - 5; 1 Corinthians 15: 24 - 28; Ephesians 3: 20, 21
JT In these scriptures as taken together, I think we shall see finality, as to this great subject; really the greatest things, as to what has been before us. We saw this morning that God is in the assembly provisionally, carrying on the testimony of the gospel, taking out from among the nations a people for His name — those who form the assembly.
What we should see now is, firstly that He is also in the assembly in relation to the millennium. John saw “the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, having the glory of God”. The glory of God enlightens it and the lamp thereof is the Lamb. This is in view of testimony in the millennium. Then the beginning of Revelation 21 shows that God is in it eternally, for there it is a question of the new Jerusalem and new creation; it is said, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea exists no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice out of the heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God” (Revelation 21: 1 - 3). This is not in the same sense in which He is here in the assembly now; He is not “with men” in the assembly now, He is here to secure them by the gospel. In the eternal state of things, He is with men as His people, they shall be His people, “God himself shall be with them, their God”.
[p. 465] Then our passage in 1 Corinthians shows the result is “that God may be all in all”. The passage in Ephesians shows that He will be glorified in the assembly for ever: “to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages” (Ephesians 3: 21).
HH Would you say a word as to the second verse of Revelation 21, the relation of the holy city, new Jerusalem, to eternity?
JT She does not come down for testimony there, but “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband”. She is alluded to as “the tabernacle of God;” that would be final; and added to it, as in 1 Corinthians 15: 28, God will ultimately be “all in all”.
AR Does the city in Revelation 21: 11 represent formation in a supreme way? The light is not conferred, it is what she is in the way of formation; “Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone”.
JT That is what she is as coming into the millennial state of things. Then it is said, “And I saw no temple in it; for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb. And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon, that they should shine for it; for the glory of God has enlightened it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb” (Revelation 21: 22, 23).
SMcC What had you in mind when you referred to the thought of testimony? It has been generally thought that the time of testimony would be past and the time of display come.
JT I think the millennial period will be a period of testimony too, as to what God can do in actual flesh and blood conditions in which we are. It will be the same earth, the nations, Israel, all set up in blessing here, not perfectly, because there is the possibility of death, we are told in the prophets; and moreover, after the millennial day, there will be [p. 466] another attack of the enemy, according to chapter 20; so it is an imperfect state of things, though nearly perfect. God shows what He can do in setting up such a state of things, in spite of conditions that exist in the material universe. The eternal state is not in these conditions; although Isaiah 65: 17 shows that new creation is, in principle, in the millennium. Jehovah says there, “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth”, but in detail the prophet refers to the change in Jerusalem; the great change that would come over that city. It says, “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create. For behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice over Jerusalem, and will joy in my people; and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thenceforth an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not completed his days; for the youth shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit thereof: they shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for terror; for they are the seed of the blessed of Jehovah, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah” (Isaiah 65: 17 - 25). We should keep that passage before [p. 467] us in relation to Revelation 21: 9 and on. They refer to the millennial state of things, but imperfect, death possible and the curse too, and the serpent there, though Satan is bound; and yet all held, so that the divine rule dominates. “For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea” (Isaiah 11: 9). God is there, evidently in the holy city as it comes down from Him having His glory, and He, with the Lamb, is the light of it and the temple of it.
JWD Is that a physical reference, or is it testimony coming down out of heaven?
JT I think it is testimony. It is characteristic, she comes down, she is in the liberty of sonship, she is not sent down; Satan and others fall down. She comes down; it calls attention to the liberty in which the assembly is set up in sonship.
JWD The assembly will dwell in heaven in the millennial age, is that right? This is the sphere of her testimony.
JT The city comes down; it does not say to earth, but within the range of the nations, for they bring their glory to it.
ANW Is the movement of verse 10 identical with that in verse 2?
JT Verse 10 reads, “And he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain, and shewed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, having the glory of God”. She is seen as the bride, the Lamb’s wife. In verse 2 she is seen as the new Jerusalem, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. It has in mind finality. I would say they are two movements.
CAM They would be one thousand years apart.
JT I should say so. The city is the same in both connections, only the features respectively suitable to each are seen. In a certain sense the eternal [p. 468] state of things and the millennial state of things run together. The assembly, already gone up to be with the Lord in her translation, enters on new creation in finality at once. The assembly will have a place with Christ at once. Coming down into the millennial order of things, we are already in the state of perfection, but Revelation 21: 1 - 8 is consecutive to the remainder of the chapter.
HH Is new creation connected with the city?
JT New Jerusalem implies new creation, but this is not seen in verse 10, although we know it is new creation, because Scripture says, “if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation” (2 Corinthians 5: 17). In the second section of the chapter the city comes down from heaven having the glory of God; it is the Lamb’s wife, but obviously with characteristics that belong to the millennial state of things, not the eternal state. The characteristics stated, have relation to the millennium; “having the glory of God. Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone; having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel”. All these are characteristics that relate to the millennial state of things in testimony. We do not get these names, nor do we get the foundations in verses 2 to 5.
WB-w Are we to understand the first five verses refer to the eternal condition?
JT That is what I thought, and therefore they come in properly in relation to 1 Corinthians 15: 28; God all in all; whereas the second part of our chapter, beginning with verse 9, relates to the assembly still in a provisional relation — in testimony in the millennium. Chapter 20 is the foundation of the whole subject, including the great white throne of judgment, and the first eight verses of chapter 21 are added to complete the subject as to the eternal [p. 469] state of blessing. That is, it is new creation, and the assembly is seen coming down in glory “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband”. This is how she is to be known, and at the same time, as the tabernacle of God, finishing the subject taken up in chapter 20.
WB-w He goes back to millennial conditions in verse 9.
JT Yes; and the description continues on to end of the 5th verse of chapter 22.
SMcC If, as you suggest, finality is entered upon immediately at translation, how does the thought of the kingdom publicly in the day of display fit in with that, and our place, answering to reproach and suffering here?
JT That will come in at the millennial day. There is a lot of detail attached to it scattered throughout the epistles and the gospels. We do not have it all here in Revelation. When Christ comes out to reign, we come out to reign with Him, and when He sits on His own throne, we shall be with Him. It would take much more time than we have now to cover all. It is a wonderful field to look into — the details of how we come out with Christ — it is all included in this thought of the city. This city is an immense thing, the greatest thing, outside of divine Persons. It is a cube. “And he that spoke with me had a golden reed as a measure, that he might measure the city, and its gates, and its wall. And the city lies foursquare, and its length is as much as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed — twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and height of it are equal” (verses 15, 16). It needs mathematics to get at that. Think of the vastness of the measurement given! Twelve thousand stadia, and the length, breadth and height are equal; it is a cube, and all composed of persons. Think of that! It has to be taken in spiritually. What [p. 470] is stated in the chapter is to bring out the vastness and general greatness of the city; there is nothing in the whole universe equal to it outside of divine Persons.
AB Does 2 Corinthians 4: 6 refer to it? “Because it is the God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine who has shone in our hearts for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ”.
JT Just so. The city is imbued with that, invested with the glory; every one of us adding his quota to it.
JWD The names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are there. I wondered whether the functioning of the heavenly city is something like the functioning of the organism now.
JT It is the assembly as at Pentecost that is in mind here; that is, it is in that connection, standing in a Jewish connection, showing God is carrying forward His thoughts into millennial days on these lines. Paul is not mentioned. The general effect of his work would be inward and upward, and would correspond with verse 2. His ministry specially included the mystery which is the inner and more spiritual feature.
Ques Is that the city that Abraham looked for?
JT Yes, “of which God is the artificer and constructor” (Hebrews 11: 10).
HH Is the idea of a city ability for administration?
JT I should say that is the idea of it, running right through; the magnitude of it, and the qualities in the material and the liberty in which it is, are stressed here; it is not sent down, it comes down from God out of heaven.
HH All that enters into the present moment, for administration is so important we need to have a right regard for [p. 471] it now.
JT I think the Lord is helping us as to it now in the care meetings.
AR All the assembly enjoys is coming down in effect here.
JT It is God’s masterpiece, both in quality and proportions. It is a cube — it is substantial. It is not in the order of the truth in the Old Testament, but it is made to fit into it, because it is the assembly as at Pentecost; that is what the twelve foundations imply, and they are presented in precious stones; it is the excellence of the city even in the foundations that is in mind.
JST I wondered if we could get help in regard of the temple being mentioned, “for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb” (verse 22).
JT It is to bring out how real is the divine Presence. God and the Lamb are the temple of it. Usually a city has a temple; even in heathen countries. Here there is none. “And I saw no temple in it; for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb;” which would mean that they are available immediately, not in a shrine; that God is there in great simplicity and availability, so that you could go to Him any time to get understanding and light about things.
JST Why is this name used, Lord God Almighty?
JT Well, it is linked with the Old Testament, going back to Genesis, that is, what God was to Abraham, He is now in the millennial day. He is available now.
WW Does that correspond with Isaiah 65: 24? “And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; while they are yet speaking, I will hear”.
JT He is available, ready for you any time you go [p. 472] there.
EP Do you mean that God uses these accessories, because He has to on our account. He will do without them when He can.
JT Yes. Conditions inside do not require a veil. God is there to be inquired of immediately at any time.
J.R.H. Mr. Darby’s hymn:
‘And radiant hosts for ever share The unveiled mystery’. (74:7)
CAM That this city is heavenly, coming out of heaven, does not change the fact that there will be an earthly system of glory as in Ezekiel. The two things are not the same, are they?
JT No, Ezekiel is another matter. We will be in close touch with the earthly city, no doubt. There will be close relations I am sure, because you have the names of the twelve tribes on the gates here; and they are also on the city gates in Ezekiel; and the testimony in Ezekiel is Jehovah Shammah, “Jehovah is there”, and so He is here.
SMcC How will the kings of the earth bring their glory to it?
JT That is another thing. We have to wait and see how they come. The Lord will adjust the whole position; and when He sits on the throne of His glory, He will regulate the nations. Some go away into everlasting punishment because of their treatment of the Jews, viewed as His brethren; others will go into everlasting life — the saved nations (Matthew 25: 46). That is what we have in Isaiah 65: 22, “for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people”. It brings the idea of everlasting life down to these conditions; the life of a tree. So that the Lord, who sits upon the throne of His glory, sets these nations who are saved in motion, they are in liberty, they go into everlasting life. They have liberty in it, and in that liberty they go to the heavenly city; and shall bring their glory to it. There [p. 473] will be contact, yet Scripture does not say the city is on the earth.
CAM Matthew speaks of the city of the great king, and after the Lord’s resurrection, the holy city.
JT They will be brought very near together, so that these nations go away into eternal life. The character of eternal life that will be enjoyed in the millennium is indicated in Isaiah 65. The life of a tree is only a suggestion of what this great longevity in blessing will be. From the standpoint of christianity, there is no end to the life they will have, because those in whom God will have wrought will merge after the millennium into the eternal state of things. The queen of Sheba, the Lord says, “shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, more than Solomon is here” (Matthew 12: 42). She brought her glory to Jerusalem. She brought her glory to the great king in Jerusalem. That suggests the nations brought into millennial blessing and eternal life. It will work out in this way, that the saints of the assembly will be dispersed throughout the universe, one will be over five, another over ten cities. As belonging to this heavenly system, we are accessible to the nations, to anyone. Conditions will be very simple, very free, but very blessed. There will be great latitude of love and intelligence too, because the city grows to a holy temple in the Lord.
APT There is no passport system and only one street.
JT There is only one street, one grade of society, no slums, no sewage. All is perfection.
JS You alluded to the queen of Sheba.
JT I suppose she came from the south of Arabia. I sometimes think that the Lord must have been thinking of Australia and New Zealand, because He calls the region from which she came [p. 474] the south.
CAM I was thinking that the south was exemplified in early church history. The eunuch comes up from the south.
JT He was also from the south. A brother was asking, What became of him? We do not hear of the eunuch again. We can leave that. “He went on his way rejoicing”. The Spirit of God leaves it to us to determine what such a man would do. We may be assured he would tell his mistress, the queen — he would go back into his old position with holy joy, and thus be a testimony.
APT The final attack of Satan comes up against the holy city.
JT It is the earthly city he attacks. “And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city” (Revelation 20: 9) — meaning there is no modifying of the opposition. Earlier when he attacks the remnant of Israel, the earth interfered and swallowed up the river he sent out (Revelation 12: 16). Here he comes up on the breadth of the earth, he has right of way everywhere. It is a very solemn and humbling thing that there will be such conditions on earth after the millennial glory. “A fire came down from God out of the heaven and devoured them” (Revelation 20: 9). The attack is on the city, “the camp of the saints and the beloved city”. It is the earthly city we have in Ezekiel.
AR Will the whole earth be affected by Christ in the millennium?
JT I should think so. ‘From Greenland’s icy mountains, From India’s coral strand’.
It is well to bear in mind that the Roman earth is sometimes alluded to as the earth, but I think this is the whole earth.
AR What about the everlasting gospel?
JT That comes in earlier, (chapter 14). It is an angelic ministry. The heathen [p. 475] countries will be evangelised quickly, it will not take two thousand years.
JWD Do you understand the Lord will be personally known during the millennium, or will He remain in heaven?
JT I should say He is in the city. “For the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb” (Revelation 21: 22).
JWD Sitting on the throne of His glory, I was wondering if that is in the heavenly city.
JT I think that precedes what we are dealing with here. Matthew presents that testimony, “then shall he sit down upon his throne of glory, and all the nations shall be gathered before him” (Matthew 25: 31). It is a judicial throne, discriminating between the saved nations and the unsaved nations. It is really a question of how the Jews, the Lord’s brethren, who serve Him, have been treated; the nations who have ill-treated them will go into everlasting punishment.
WB-w Do you connect this session with the last half week of Daniel 9: 27?
JT Yes.
HH It will not be Christ by the Spirit, but Himself in His own body.
JT I think so. We cannot set that aside. “Every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him” (Revelation 1: 7); that is Himself, I should say. “For as the lightning goes forth from the east and shines to the west, so shall be the coming of the Son of man” (Matthew 24: 27). There can be no question about it, it is He.
ANW How will the nations walk in the light of it? Is that administratively?
JT I should say the light coming out administratively. There will be, as I was saying, great detail, subdivisions of all this. The saints will be divided up to rule over cities, some over ten, and some over [p. 476] five. The gospels show there is a great deal of detail in the working out of the divine thoughts in that day. Here it is presented in one great subject in the heavenly city. It is a solid cube of persons. What an immensity of persons all to be disposed of under Christ! In regard of the garden of Gethsemane He disposed of those He had. In that day He will dispose of them in wisdom so that the universe is ruled. I apprehend the saints in heaven will be available to the saints below. Not that we are earthly or on the earth, but the Lord has been here, and we are like Him. We shall be available in some sense to God’s earthly people.
SMcC That will be on the line of the visitations we have in the Old Testament, coming in contact with the saints on earth.
JT You can see how heavenly visitations come in in the Old Testament. We are told, “when the sons of God had come in to the daughters of men” (Genesis 6: 4). That was evil. But then we have the angels coming down, three persons coming to Abraham, heavenly visitants; and many other instances. We have in these instances the idea of how we may serve in the future, how active the saints of the assembly are going to be. What intelligence we shall have, and how we shall influence all below. The Lord says to the apostles, “ye also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19: 28). They will be in holy liberty and intelligence; the whole universe really will be replete with life and liberty of communication.
EMcK Zechariah 14: 20 says: “In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness unto Jehovah”. The very animals themselves belong to Jehovah.
AR If one of the saints rules over five cities, what will his influence be in relation to Jerusalem and [p. 477] Palestine?
JT Ezekiel would show that Jerusalem below will reflect Jerusalem above. Isaiah 65: 18, 19 says, “I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice over Jerusalem”. Both the heavenly and earthly cities being called Jerusalem intimates the special link between them. The one hundred and forty-four thousand upon mount Zion (Revelation 14) learn the song sung in heaven. The singing is “before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders”, showing additional evidence that the earthly Jerusalem is immediately linked with Jerusalem above. Our part, as the heavenly city, in exercising influence over Israel and the nations, develops out of our present experience in administrative matters in the assembly.
EP Would the solidity of this cube and its immensity be in line with the principle, “Altogether that which I also say to you” (John 8: 25).
JT There is no discrepancy at all in the city, its composition is so systematically and perfectly according to Christ. It is wonderful. There is nothing at all like it in the whole universe, a solid cube of persons. We have to take it in spiritually; how are we to be together in this way? We are to be amenable to divine measurement. Measurement has a great place in our scripture; each of us is to begin with the idea of his measure, otherwise we will not fit in with this great city.
CHH The truth comes to us objectively and we are to take it in.
JT Yes; this is a cube. The length of the temple was sixty cubits, and the breadth twenty (2 Chronicles 3: 3). The length is greater than the breadth. I suppose the length of Solomon’s temple is the divine measure that God has in His mind in His house, but the breadth is not as great, nor the height; that is, it is not equal to the heavenly city. The heavenly city corresponds to the divine measure in every way,
[p. 478] it is a cube, so that the work of God in us is equal to His thought for us. That is what is meant, the counsels of God must be completed to the letter; to the smallest measurement. In the Old Testament, in Solomon’s temple, the length was greater than the breadth or the height, so that we have not perfection there.
CHH In connection with the house in Ezra it speaks of the height and breadth, but no length (Ezra 6: 3).
JT There is some doubt as to those dimensions, no length being given. If the text is accurate the work of God in the returned remnant is stressed rather than the divine thought of the house, which is in mind in the length of Solomon’s temple.
JWD Is what is indicated here our exclusive service in the millennium, or will the assembly function Godward as well?
JT What we have here is toward Israel and the nations, what has come into testimony from God; but what is toward God would be more the result of Paul’s work, he sets up the service of God, and that will go on eternally.
WW I do not understand “a hundred and forty-four cubits, a man’s measure, that is, the angel’s” (Revelation 21: 17).
JT It is a finite measure.
APT Are the saints the governors elect; already elected, but not in office?
JT Just so. “The elect of God”. “But whom he has predestinated, these also he has called; and whom he has called, these also he has justified; but whom he has justified, these also he has glorified” (Romans 8: 30).
We have been dealing with the millennial state of things and how God is to be known there; it is a wonderful subject and we have hardly touched it; but we must now go on to the eternal state in the [p. 479] beginning of the chapter. After the final judgment spoken of in chapter 20, I suppose the millennial saints will all merge into the eternal state of things. They do not go into the eternal state in flesh and blood, they do not continue in that, that is another thing made very clear, but they do go in. Eternity is the final thought. There will be many families all set in relation to the Father. Every family in heaven and on earth is named by Him. The first part of our chapter here contemplates the assembly coming down in that relation; it is new creation, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea exists no more” (Revelation 21: 1). We see how God is near in the tabernacle, and how He serves His people. It says, “And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall not exist any more, nor grief, nor cry, nor distress shall exist any more, for the former things have passed away ... And he says to me, Write, for [p. 482] these words are true and faithful. And he said to me, It is done” (Revelation 21: 4 - 6). The note says, Perhaps ‘They are fulfilled’. The whole matter as to new creation is finished.
AR Does what is masculine and feminine go into eternity? He says, “And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” (verse 2). Then he goes on to say, “the tabernacle of Go is with men”.
JT The masculine and feminine go through in Christ and the assembly, all else is men.
AR Are we in relation to Christ in the feminine sense, and in relation to God, as men?
JT Yes; the feminine thought will be in the assembly. There will be no ‘men and women’ as far as I see. The Lord says, “they who are counted worthy to have part in that world, and the resurrection [p. 480] from among the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; for neither can they die any more, for they are equal to angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection” (Luke 20: 35, 36).
CAM New creation really takes us beyond that.
JT Yes, it does. That is what I understand. It is a question of men. Of course, the word ‘men’ will include all the saints. It is a question of the order of being that God has special pleasure in, and with whom He will dwell. The idea of male and female is retained in Christ and the assembly.
WGT It speaks of the marriage of the Lamb.
JT That is recorded in Revelation 19: 7 - 9. “Let us rejoice and exult, and give him glory: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready. And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints. And he says to me, Write, Blessed are they who are called to the supper of the marriage of the Lamb”. That, I should say, is before all this, it is as Christ takes us to be with Himself. It is the “Lamb” and the bearing of it is millennial, but of course the marriage relation remains, and this enters into chapter 21: 2.
AP-f “I saw a new heaven and a new earth”. Is that the eternal state?
JT That is right, “a new heaven and a new earth”.
AP-f Does it include both heavenly saints and earthly saints?
JT It is the final sphere, where all the families of God are eternally. The original thought of God as to heaven and earth remains, only all will be new.
AR In the service of God we go beyond what is feminine and touch what is masculine in sonship, do we [p. 481] not?
JT Yes, although the marital relation between Christ and the assembly does not cease. There is the masculine and feminine side in the early part of the service. Song of Songs makes room for that. We must have the marriage idea, the bridegroom and the bride.
CHH You spoke of three circles. Will the assembly still be in the inner circle? Will God tabernacle in the assembly?
JT I suppose the assembly will always retain its own peculiar place. It belongs inside — that family having the first place with God. Paul and John converge in this. There is no veil in the heavenly city, there is no distance at all between God and us. There is no other family that has that place.
EP Does that come out in what John says, “I saw a new heaven and a new earth”? In connection with the millennial setting, an angel showed him the city. Chapter 21: 1 is to bring out the inward side.
JT Yes. It is not a question of showing in the beginning of the chapter, the thing is there to the spiritual eye. John was capable of seeing the new Jerusalem. He sees it without his attention being called to it; but the assembly in relation to the millennium is shown.
SMcC It is wonderful — “God himself shall be with them”.
JT That is beautiful. “God himself shall be with them”, and then, “their God”. You are reminded of, “the Father himself has affection for you” (John 16: 27). The word Himself brings in the Person, that is not representation, it is Himself, so that we are near to God. The mediatorial side is not stressed, we are directly with God, and He with us. “God himself shall be with them, their God. And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes;” and then “the former things have passed away ... Behold, I make all things new. And he says to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And he said to me, It is done” (Revelation 21: 4 - 6). “It is done” — new creation is complete. Then we have a further thought in verse 7, a word for us now in the light of this eternal glory. “He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son”. The overcomer will be regarded as a son. It is the only time we get John using the word son as applied to the saints. It is very striking; the relation is on moral ground here. In Galatians it is “by faith in Christ Jesus”, the Spirit of adoption making it good.
JWD What do you understand is the link between the tabernacle of God and His people? “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men”. Did I understand you to say that the tabernacle of God is the assembly? What link is there between the assembly and men in the eternal state?
JT I suppose the idea is that you view yourself as of the assembly, but a man nevertheless.
JWD I thought that the men were connected with the new earth?
JT That will be so, but the idea goes wider than the assembly, it will take in all the families of God, but the assembly, although composed of men, is the tabernacle of God. I would not like to give up the idea that you are a man, and I am a man. We meet each other in the city and we speak to each other as individuals.
‘Thy saints, O Lord with Thee In glory met’.
We shall love one another, there is only one Spirit, there will be no social gradations, we are all free together.
WGT “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us” (John 1: 14). Is that the same thought?
JT That statement is to bring out the reality of Christ’s manhood. He was available to Simon the [p. 483] Pharisee, but He was contemplated by His disciples as an Only-begotten with a Father. Here we have God dwelling with men. Sonship in the chapter is connected with overcoming (verse 7); this is in keeping with the book of Revelation. Those forming the assembly are all sons according to Paul’s doctrine, and they have the Spirit of God’s Son, and this will give character to the tabernacle in which God will dwell. Divine affection will pervade the whole position; the love of Christ for the assembly, and the love of the assembly for Christ will be there, and the Father’s love pervading all. Everything will radiate these affections — the Father’s for Christ and all the sons, and Christ’s affections for the bride, the assembly, and they will never grow dim, they will always be fresh and new.
EMcK The thought of the tabernacle as seen in Exodus 40: 34, would appear here; “the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle”.
JT The allusion would be to that. It is a tabernacle, only not in wilderness conditions. It is with men. Look at what the tabernacle is, she radiates bridal affections; Christ loves her supremely and she loves Him!
WB-w The bride is for her husband, and in the tabernacle, which is another view of her, God is with men. Is there order in the chapter in that way?
JT Yes. The whole position shows what blessing lies before us.
HH Do you include administration in relation to what is eternal?
JT I think so. We shall not always be sitting down!
HH I mean administration is apparently connected with the city. Do you regard the city as going through [p. 484] eternity?
JT Yes, only it takes the form of a tabernacle. “And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God”. That is what I see here. The need is for us to sit down and say, What does this mean? The city implies order, influence, administration. If you get a meal in a saint’s house, he is administering something to you, it is the administration of love. We shall not be sitting down looking at each other all the time, we shall be active. Heaven is aglow with delight when a sinner repents, for instance; we have inklings of what is there, the great activity of love.
EMcK Abraham supplied a meal for the three heavenly visitors, which shows how love in the saints responds to God.
JRH “I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that thou hast loved them as thou has loved me” (John 17: 23).
JT That is a very blessed state of things, that kind of love in us, and the Father’s love for the Son is in us too; abundance of love, and the relations in holy liberty.
JS There could be no weariness if it is a question of bridal affection. It is all most precious.
JT Affection will be prevailing in all its variations. The bride’s affection for Christ, Christ’s affection for her, God’s affection for His Son and sons, and Christ’s affection for His brethren. Think of the currents of love! The Spirit active in all — the Father, the Son and the saints. Even now the Holy Spirit helps us, opens the heavenly door, so that we can realise it all a little.
SMcC To what extent will the sufferings of Christ engage us in these conditions?
JT They will certainly engage us in the millennial day. They are more prominent at the threshold;
[p. 485] the sufferings of Christ are represented in the altar. The altar was at the threshold of the house, in the court. The question is whether we need that inside, whether we need any incentive to love Christ beyond His own Person.
SMcC It has been said that He ever bears the marks of His passion.
JT There is much that is needed to be understood in this respect. The atoning sacrifice of Christ, the blood of which was placed on the mercy-seat, is the basis of everything in the service of God; this should always be before us; but there is much instruction in the Scriptures covering what Christ is in Himself. In the Song of Songs for instance, there is nothing about His sufferings on the cross, and yet much about His love for His spouse and hers for Him.
Then, the first type we have of Christ and the assembly is Adam and Eve in Genesis 2. This was before sin came into the world, and hence the idea of suffering was not there. It was sleep. It was a figure of Christ’s death, but not in the sense of suffering. The assembly in type there is not contemplated as having had, in its members, a sinful history. Another fact to be mentioned is, that Luke and John do not record the forsaking of Christ by God, which clearly implies a modification of His sufferings as recorded by Matthew and Mark. There can be no doubt that the more we are with divine Persons, in holy intelligence and liberty, the more we love and worship Them, because of what They are in Themselves, rather than because of what They have done. This will enter particularly into our eternal conditions.
SMcC Do you think in any way the death of Christ will be before our hearts in eternal conditions?
JT We cannot say it is out of place. I think what the Holy Spirit would stress is the Person of [p. 486] Christ in eternal relations. You do not need anything more. Still the Lord says, “On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again” (John 10: 17). It is a question whether that side of the truth is not for public testimony. The sufferings of Christ in love enhance His Person, but when you are with Him I think His Person fills you. We have to make room in our minds for a condition to which no sinful history can be attached. New creation involves this. The assembly’s real history in this sense begins with Christ in death.
JWD Eve being taken from Adam’s side, would that not enter into our constitution?
JT It does. We can hardly think of Ishshah speaking to Ish of his “deep sleep” as suffering for her, but it is true that Christ loved the assembly and gave Himself for it. The assembly, however, did not exist, save in purpose, until He had given Himself and the Holy Spirit came. Man said, “This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman [Ishshah], because this was taken out of Man [Ish]” (Genesis 2: 23). There is no previous history of Ishshah. The love that existed between them would be because of what they were in themselves. This is a feature of the truth and that is generally what comes out in Song of Songs. But in no sense am I overlooking Christ’s precious death.
ANW There is no suggestion of suffering in that view of Christ and the assembly, it is before any thought of sin. Sin is out of sight, it is a question of the Person of Christ and of the assembly.
APT You love Him for what He is, not only for what He has done.
JT In the Song of Songs the spouse says nothing about her lover’s wounds. I am only seeking to promote exercise and inquiry as to how the truth stands; whether the sufferings of Christ stand more [p. 487] in relation to us in our imperfect state here than to our perfect state in eternity.
WB-w On the mount of Transfiguration they spoke of His decease.
JT Yes. The death of Christ was before them. That entered into the testimony of the gospel. If Moses and Elias had a place in the glory, Christ must go that way.
SMcC Mr. Darby’s hymn reads:
‘And spotless in that heavenly light
Of all Thy sufferings talk’. (270:2)
JT That would be in public relations I suppose. I am far from minimising His sufferings, but I think we ought to make more of the Person of Christ, and be more absorbed with Him.
APT The Lord says to one, “Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? ... and he did him homage” (John 9: 35 - 38). It was a question of the Lord’s Person.
JT “The Jews therefore said to him, Thou hast not yet fifty years, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8: 57, 58). We have to understand who the Person is. “In his shadow have I rapture and sit down” one says (Song of Songs 2: 3).