IDENTIFICATION OF THE SAINTS

^[p. 488] IDENTIFICATION OF THE SAINTS

Revelation 7: 13 - 17; Song of Songs 3: 6; Song of Songs 8: 5; Genesis 48: 8, 9

JT These scriptures raise questions as to the saints — as to who they are. Inquiries are made as to them in different relations. Who are they? They, therefore, suggest that we are to be known from whence we come, and where we go; first, as redeemed, and then as coming out of the wilderness in a collective sense, and finally, as to our family relations — sonship. I thought that an inquiry into these scriptures would help us as to our calling and destiny and our present characteristics. The first question in Revelation is raised by an elder with a saint as to who certain saints are. The passage introduces the thought of eldership, showing that an elder is concerned that the saints should be known according to what they are as of God. It is not a question of inquiry as to all nominal professors, but as to those who are genuine. Elders are much needed, for the saints need care, shepherding; and this elder, one of the twenty-four representing the thought fully, is concerned that others shall know who the saints are. The inquiry should lift us out of mere religious settings, mere religious positions, if we are in them, and enable us to take our places according to God. So that the answer is, in the first case: “These are they who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb”.

Ques Does this give us a very elementary thought in regard of the saints?

JT Well, the most elementary thought would be new birth, but as to our public position this would be elementary, that is, we have washed our robes. This is not only an historical fact, but ^[p. 489] has a moral significance; they have done it: they have done it themselves.

Ques Is it a reference back to the fact that they had palm branches in their hands?

JT Quite so. The earlier account is by the prophet John himself, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb”. That is a formal statement by John; the white robes and the palm branches indicate their moral state; the palm branches alluding to victory.

Ques Would you say how you understand the thought of washing our robes in the blood?

JT The blood of Christ has cleansing power: it cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1: 7). As I said, it is not merely an historical statement — it is historical — but it has a moral bearing. “These are they who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb”. The tense would show that the thing is done, it is completed. In the first chapter the Lamb, the Lord Himself, does it for us, He “has washed us from our sins in his blood”. The last chapter of the book speaks of those who wash their robes, without mentioning the blood, they wash them, they do it, but here the blood is used by this great multitude. It is said in chapter 7 that “These are they who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed”. The word come is characteristic showing that they are of that class — the comers out of the great tribulation. They have not succumbed. They are continuously characterised as having come out of it: they are not overwhelmed in it. The washing is mentioned as in keeping with all this.

^[p. 490] They have not had recourse to ordinary methods, religious methods, but “have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb”. They are intelligent persons. They come out of the great tribulation; others doubtless have succumbed to it, but these have come out, and intelligently use the testimony of the death of Christ.

Ques Would you regard them as having overcome the world in that sense?

JT Whatever the great tribulation involves, there would be tremendous pressure to divert them, but they come out of it.

PTF What is the difference between being washed from our sins in His blood, which He has done, and these saints washing their robes in His blood?

JT Believers happily ascribe their redemption to Christ, the washing of course having its own force, and primarily He does it; but in this case, I think the stress is on their intelligent use of the testimony of the death of Christ, because the use of the blood is a question of accepting the testimony to the death of Christ. There is the Spirit, the water and the blood — “they that bear witness are three”. The Spirit is the witness, and the water, and the blood. “It is the Spirit that beareth witness”, and in our case He brings to bear upon us the testimony of the death of Christ which is the water and the blood; the cleansing by the blood of Christ being judicial, and the water being moral, dealing with our state; so that it is an intelligent appropriation of the blood of Christ, the death of Christ, for cleansing. I think it denotes an advance on chapter 1, in the understanding of these persons, although chapter 1 covers this as to the value of the blood. The believer readily ascribes praise to Christ for everything, only the Spirit would stress what we do in intelligence, as feeling the need of the blood.

Ques Paul writes to Titus saying, “according to his own mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit”. That is what is done for us, then it says, “I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works”. Is that the doing it for ourselves?

JT Well, the good works would be a witness to the reality of our faith. Washing our robes in the blood is an intelligent appropriation of the death of Christ for cleansing.

RG Is it in view of service? They served God, the passage says.

JT Well, the elder goes on to tell us that. So that we get a true account of such believers, at any time. “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them”. “Before the throne” would indicate an intelligent apprehension of the throne. The elder is calling attention to intelligence in these believers; this great multitude that no one could number. So that it seems from this account, as if we might learn the need for definiteness about us; an intelligent use of the testimony of the death of Christ. As they go on to the throne these believers are intelligent, they are not affected by national feeling or politics, they are standing before the throne of God and they serve Him day and night in His temple.

JSE Is that why it is said of their robes that they “have made them white;” they go the whole way, and are clear in themselves of every element that would stand in the way of their serving God?

JT I think that is good. Thoroughness marked them, they had made them white.

JSE Does it not say “have washed ... and have made them white” — as though there are two ^[p. 492] distinct thoughts, to emphasise the diligence with which they have gone into the matter?

JT Yes. It certainly is important to go the whole way in the use of the death of Christ, for our robes allude to what we are externally, it needs the application of the death of Christ to all that we are.

Ques Is it more the water cleansing in the 22nd chapter? “Blessed are they that wash their robes”.

JT Yes, and I think it is continuously characteristic of the persons; they are the washers of their robes. The general moral condition is in view. The blood is for the conscience.

Ques Are you making a present application of the principles of the great tribulation?

JT Whatever has the character of tribulation to believers would be in mind. There is not much to be said of anyone who has not experienced tribulation. These are they who come out — it is characteristic of them, not simply historical.

PMK Would you connect that with what the apostle Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1: 8 - 10, “Our tribulation which happened to us in Asia, that we were excessively pressed beyond our power, so as to despair even of living. But we ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not have our trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; who has delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver”.

JT That was a great experience for the apostle and those with him, but the general thought is that believers go through tribulation. Romans 5: 3 contemplates that we do, but it works patience.

RG What is the thought in the expression “the blood of the Lamb”?

JT The Lamb is the Sufferer. This book contemplates Christ as suffering; the thought runs through the book.

Ques Would this application of the death of Christ bring us into moral conformity with the throne, so that we should be free for the service of God?

JT Just so, the throne has a political bearing; and washing has to do with the filth of this world and ourselves, the white robes are over against all that. The throne is a political thought, it is over against all authority in this world, and we are before that throne, the throne of God. All other thrones, whatever they are, even if we pray for them, are subservient to this one. This book contemplates that a throne stood in the heavens, all others are tottering, but this one stands, it is the throne of God.

Ques Would that be a continuous thought for us now?

JT It is the attitude of mind that you have before God. Whatever claims there may be — and you would recognise human governments, and recognise God’s hand in them — this is the great primary and eternal thought of the throne of God. That must have the first claim. Whatever other claims there may be, this is the primary claim, it is constant.

Ques Does the thought of day and night suggest the way in which God is served?

JT It is a statement that is found frequently in Scripture; in this connection it alludes to continuance — changes that affect men generally do not interfere with it. Like Anna who was in the temple night and day; and Paul says, “our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night”.

RAE Would you distinguish a little more between the washing with the water and the washing ^[p. 494] with the blood? They are both connected with the death of Christ.

JT They are both judicial, but the blood is particularly so because it is a question of sins, actual transgressions, actions against God. Sins are evidences of lawlessness, and God must deal with them; their existence affects the conscience, and the conscience judges them as before God. The testimony in the blood of Christ, that God has been satisfied in regard of them, satisfies the conscience. Of course, the water is also judicial but less so; it deals with our state. It comes in later in soul history; the believer does not discern the state he is in at the outset; he discerns his sins, for these are discerned more readily, there is forgiveness of them indeed, but there is no forgiveness for the state; the state is dealt with judicially — “God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh” (Romans 8: 3). It is condemnation of our state. The second cry of our Lord on the cross related to the judgment of the state of man. The first cry, I think, was in relation to man’s guilt, but the second cry in relation to man himself, as set aside judicially in Christ’s dying. He had to die in order to set aside the man who had offended.

Ques Would this scripture imply that the persons marked by these characteristics would not come under the power of the world?

JT That is in mind, the palms are in their hands, and it says, “he that sits upon the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them;” showing how favourable the throne is to them — they are standing before it. The more we stand before God and His authority in Christ, the more benefits we shall prove; the throne is favourable to us. Romans 3 speaks of our sins as dealt with, Romans 6 of our state, but chapter 5 is the kingdom. It is what comes to us through Christ, and I believe the more ^[p. 495] we recognise that, the more benefits we shall come into. “He that sits upon the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them”. He is honouring them as standing before the throne. That is a great point at the present time, that we should learn to stand before the throne of God and fully recognise all He has established in Christ.

PHH Are we strengthened in that as having a link with the Lamb in the midst of the throne?

JT Quite so. The Lamb is slain; He is all powerful, but He has suffered.

PHH Would you say that the experiences of the saints in the book of Revelation are in some sense to bring us into correspondence with the Lamb, ending up with the great thought of the Lamb’s wife who has made herself ready?

JT Quite so, it runs through the book; the Lamb is a term in this book that indicates a sufferer; the word used is a diminutive throughout. He is passive in sufferings; and we are brought into accord with that, so that we are sufferers, we are not rebels against any institution of God, we are before the throne of God, we accept the attitude of suffering.

Ques Would Paul, in Acts 27: 23, when he says, “God, whose I am”, be like one standing before the throne?

JT Exactly. I think we shall get help in our souls in seeing that this elder, representing the great principle of eldership, is calling attention to the saints, “who are they?” he says. He is one of twenty-four, representing all experience essential to an elder; they are crowned elders, and are fully intelligent as to all that enters into the thought. He is calling attention to the saints, “who are they?” I think it is a very important matter that each should have in his soul a sense of who he is, and that others should know who he is, and what he ^[p. 496] is; he owes it to the Lamb. The throne is favourable to him so that he is victorious in all circumstances; however much he has to suffer he never suffers as the Lamb suffered, he is victorious in all circumstances, as it says they have “palm branches in their hands”. Having them in their hands is an intelligent thought, they know what they are doing. The elder says, “Therefore are they before the throne”. The “therefore” shows that what is said of them is the outcome of something, as though it is due to God. In the earlier account, they are saying “Salvation to our God”.

AJB Does the “therefore” convey something of stability to those who stand before it? They are on firm ground knowing the reason for their being before the throne.

JT Quite so. It is the outcome of what they have been through: they have that right and privilege, and it is due to God that they stand there. In verse 10 it says, they “cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb”. In what they are saying, they are fully on God’s side. It is a very important matter that we should be on God’s side; in our meetings for prayer, and in all our prayers, we are to take sides with Him. The great issue is against Him, and we are with Him, not only in the conflict, but in regard of His thoughts in the gospel, and in the assembly. God is before us and we are with Him. Then we are told, “And all the angels stood around the throne, and the elders, and the four living creatures, and fell before the throne upon their faces, and worshipped God, saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and strength, to our God, to the ages of ages. Amen”. All the angels are in this, but these redeemed ones are leading in the matter, they are saying, “Salvation to our God”. So that the position ^[p. 497] it contemplates is that we are with God in all He is doing.

Ques Would Exodus 15 show how wonderfully Moses entered into that great thought — the way the song of salvation opens up?

JT Just so, and Israel too. The lovers of God take this attitude, they are with God, and everything that is against Him and dishonours Him, they overcome. That is why these redeemed ones are so thoroughly on this line, and the elder thinks it worth while to raise the question as to who they are. I believe at the present time those who are faithful take sides with God, and God is not ashamed to be called their God. Like Abraham, they are His friends.

SJH The passage says, He “shall spread his tabernacle over them”. Would you say a word as to how that is worked out.

JT It is a remarkable allusion to His tabernacle. It would be where He dwells. It is intended for us as a protection — He “shall spread his tabernacle over them. They shall not hunger any more, neither shall they thirst any more”. It is a touching allusion to His care — how very real the idea is, His tabernacle.

Ques Would the promises made to these form a basis for our prayers?

JT I think they would. You mean this tabernacle would be spread over us?

Rem You mentioned the prayer meeting and being thoroughly with God in it. I was wondering if these promises would give us a basis for our prayer, that we may really prove what His promises are for those who are before the throne; not only is there protection, but “They shall not hunger any more, neither shall they thirst any more, nor shall the sun at all fall on them, nor any burning heat; because the Lamb which is in the midst of the ^[p. 498] throne shall shepherd them, and shall lead them to fountains of waters of life, and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes”.

JT I am sure it would. What is said of them here is akin to what is said in chapter 21 of those who are saved. It is very like it, showing it is the eternal conditions that are in mind. We come into that now, and I believe the point for us is that, as those who love God take up this attitude, God calls attention to them. To the assembly in Philadelphia, the Lord says, “Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee” (Revelation 3: 9). That may be very abstract, but still it ought to be in our minds, that the Lord calls attention to His people as they take sides with Him, and He would make it effective for our support; He is not ashamed to call attention to those who love Him. Who are they? He loves to portray, before the eyes of others, what they are — that they may know I have loved thee.

WC Is there something analogous in the book of Ruth when Ruth comes to the feet of Boaz; he said, “Who art thou? and she answered, I am Ruth, thy handmaid”.

JT She says, “spread thy skirt [or ‘wing’] over thy handmaid”. It is very akin to the divine tabernacle being spread over us. There are many other instances in Scripture, but that is one of the instances of a question being asked as to who people are. When we get to heaven the Who is who book, so to speak, will tell who we are; just as down here God signifies His people if they are worthy of it.

Ques John seems slow to answer, but is the question raised to stimulate the exercise with him?

JT I should say so. He is very respectful, he says, “My lord, thou knowest;” he would let the elder ^[p. 499] tell him. This is a great matter, and he does not want to attempt to describe them; he would let the elder tell him, that is the idea; the elder knows, it is the principle of his very being, he knows the saints: he knows what they are to God, and he delights in seeing them correspond with God, it is his business to bring them into correspondence with God.

PTF Would the tabernacle in all its perfection be seen on the mount?

JT Quite so. Peter would have “three tabernacles”, but there was only one, and the cloud coming out indicated that the glory was on Christ.

JSE Is it akin to the thought of the shadow of the Almighty in Psalm 91?

JT Yes.

Ques Isaiah 4: 1, 5 seems to be in keeping, it starts with, “And seven women shall take of hold of one man in that day”, as though they were recognisable, but it finishes with, “And Jehovah will create over every dwelling-place of mount Zion, and over its convocations, a cloud by day and a smoke, and the brightness of a flame of fire by night: for over all the glory shall be a covering”. Do you think it is in keeping?

JT Yes. You see how we are cared for; it is the result of what we are as answering to God.

Now, in the Song of Songs we have a more advanced view of what we have been engaged with in Revelation 7. Here in the Song of Songs it is a permanent thought, and, therefore, would have allusion typically, either to Israel, or to the assembly; for the present purpose it would be the assembly. “Who is this, she that cometh up from the wilderness Like pillars of smoke, Perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, With all powders of the merchant?” No one tells us here, but it is a question to have before us. There is no answer given save that the subsequent verses 7 to 11 ^[p. 500] indicate that she is related to Solomon; that is, related to Christ. He is seen immediately; for verse 7 reads, “Behold his couch, Solomon’s own;” he has his own couch; he is viewed by himself, but verse 6 indicates clearly that she is in relation to him; that is, Israel, or the assembly, in relation to Christ in these circumstances. So that the Spirit immediately goes on to Solomon and he has a couch which is his own. He is not dependent on religious organisations at all, he has his own requisites, he has his own needed things; and “Threescore mighty men are about it, Of the mighty of Israel. They all hold the sword, Experts in war; Each hath his sword upon his thigh Because of alarm in the nights”. Solomon is a great personage, and he has his own couch, and he is surrounded by these persons, they are all vigilant and military experts, he is looked after; and then it says, “King Solomon made himself a palanquin”. He made it himself, it is his own. That is, we are reminded of what Christ is; He is wholly independent of all religious organisations about us, He does not need them at all, He spurns them, He only regards what is His own. The palanquin, we are told, is “Of the wood of Lebanon”. That is an allusion to great personal dignity; in the anti-type, to the quality of the saints. “Its pillars he made of silver, Its support of gold, Its seat of purple;” that is what he has done; it is all his own; he is seen in entire independence, as this personage comes into view. He is worthy of her, and she is worthy of him. As soon as the question is raised as to who she is, Solomon is introduced personally, as much as to say, we had better let Solomon indicate; and the subsequent chapters tell us plainly enough what he thinks about her. As soon as this question is raised as to who she is, Solomon comes into mind. It goes on to say in verse 10, “The midst thereof was paved with love By the daughters of Jerusalem”. He admits all that, but he is independent of all else; it is what is his own which engages him, but what the daughters of Jerusalem do, they do in love, and hence it goes on, “Go forth, daughters of Zion, And behold king Solomon With the crown wherewith his mother crowned him In the day of his espousals, And in the day of the gladness of his heart”. So, in the midst of what is most delightful, the answer to the question of verse 6 is, What I have seen; not what is said about Solomon. She stands related to him — therefore “go forth” and behold him. She is coming up out of the wilderness in Song of Songs 8: 5, “Leaning upon her beloved”, that is a closer, and more intimate touch. In chapter 3 she is coming up by herself, not “leaning on her beloved”.

Applying it anti-typically, chapter 3: 6 describes those who recognise the Spirit collectively; we do not come up out of the wilderness in our own strength; it is not a mere religious movement, it is a movement in power — really in the Spirit. The wilderness would mean that part of it after Numbers 21: 17, where the Spirit is recognised, the well is recognised — “Rise up well! sing unto it”.

Ques Would you say a word as to “perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, with all powders of the merchant”?

JT It alludes, I think, to the formed condition of the assembly; the smoke would be an allusion, I suppose, to the sacrifices, but they are formed; a pillar is a formed idea; it is not scattered by the winds, but is something tangible; you can see it belongs to her. She is to be seen in this character. There is love amongst ourselves; it is not vanishing; it is a formed thing.

JSE What would be the thought in the “powders of the merchant”?

JT ^[p. 502] I suppose they are the best to be had. The allusion to the merchant would mean that they are bought, it is the principle of sacrifice; not that the house of God is a place of merchandise, but it alludes to getting the best and paying for it. The Lord tells those in Laodicea, that He will sell them the things they need. It means that things can be acquired, the very best can be had if you want them; you value them, and you pay for them.

PHH Would these features somewhat correspond to what Balaam says about the people after Numbers 21? Referring to their strength, and to their goodly tents, spread forth like valleys, like aloe trees, which Jehovah hath planted?

JT That would be what a man who had had his eyes opened could see. The answer to the question here in Song of Songs 3: 6 is surely that it is all in view of Solomon, it is the Spirit’s work bringing us to Solomon. Every feature is evidence of the Spirit’s work — of the formative work of the Spirit. Then chapter 8 alludes to a further and more intimate thought, that is, she is “leaning on her beloved”. “Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness, Leaning upon her beloved”? As Christ is known in the assembly, this applies — leaning on Him.

Ques Do I understand you to mean that the first is more the way we came up out of the wilderness to have a fresh experience of the love of Christ; but in chapter 8 it is more what flows from that, as leaning on Him, and having fresh experiences of His support and love?

JT That is it. You have liberty to do that. It is increased knowledge of Christ that affords you liberty to do that, to lean on Him. Earlier, in chapter 2: 6, it says, “His left hand is under my head, And his right hand doth embrace me;” but now we have to learn to lean — and a known Christ affords ^[p. 503] us liberty to do this: we have learned how to lean on Him, as our Beloved.

Ques Have you in mind the breaking of bread and the subsequent assembly experiences?

JT Quite so. There we get the idea of what is meant, to get away from the mere figure to the reality of the thing.

RT Would leaning on her beloved have in view the service of God?

JT Well, where will He lead now? There is more than that in the assembly service, we are led out and in; it is a question of where He goes. The figure here does not go that far.

Ques Would this bring out the beauty of the marital link and the wonderful intimacy in consequence of it?

JT I think it indicates intimacy; it goes on to say, “I awoke thee under the apple-tree: There thy mother brought thee forth; There she brought thee forth that bore thee;” meaning that she is brought up under the new covenant. The apple-tree, as already alluded to (chapter 2: 3), is distinguished among the trees of the wood; it refers to Christ; she is nurtured under His influence.

Ques What is in your mind as to the new covenant?

JT I think it is how Israel will be nurtured by and by. The idea of the new covenant is to establish us as to divine love, lest we should be shaken or uncertain — not sure of our ground. The reminder is that she had been brought up there. Now she has confidence, she is leaning on Him.

Rem Here it is more the confidence begotten of love known in an intimate way, rather than the full sense of union with Christ.

JT Yes, it is more that here because he said, “I awoke thee under the apple-tree: There thy mother brought thee forth”. The present Jewish ^[p. 504] condition is distressing beyond measure; as the apostle says, “Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which is now, for she is in bondage with her children” (Galatians 4: 25). They are all in bondage, the whole idea today of the earthly Jerusalem is bondage — “the Jerusalem above ... is our mother”. This principle cannot be applied to the Jews today at all, for they have taken on a terrible character; but presently they will take on a different character, because they will be brought under Christ. “But when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil is taken away” (2 Corinthians 3: 16): what a change! The veil shall be taken away, as soon as they turn to the Lord. They have not done that yet, but this alludes to the time when they will, and be brought up under the knowledge of Christ; the mother will be no longer in bondage, but Jerusalem set free. In Galatians 4 the apostle drops the thought of the covenant in regard of us; he says, “Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother”. Instead of applying the thought of a free woman, Sarah, as representative of the new covenant, he brings in a greater thought, namely, the heavenly Jerusalem, Jerusalem above; a very great thought, not simply in heaven, but above.

WC Is there any link between the two references to the mother — first in chapter 3: 11, and then here in chapter 8: 5?

JT It is his mother in chapter 3, corresponding somewhat to Revelation 12 where she is seen as Christ’s mother. In chapter 8, the mother is Jerusalem, as she will be presently, reinstated under the new covenant in liberty.

Ques The first part of verse 5 of chapter 8 is in the present tense, and the latter is in the past. Would the latter show how the Lord would bring us to this leaning on Him; not a question as to where He will go, but she is available to Him and in His support all the time?

^[p. 505] JT We are set free and have confidence; really we cannot have assembly service unless we are in the confidence which divine love inspires.

Rem So that these two thoughts refer to us in the wilderness. In the third scripture we have sonship.

JT In Genesis 48: 8 Jacob says of Joseph’s sons, “Who are these?” “Israel beheld Joseph’s sons, and said, Who are these? And Joseph said to his father, They are my sons, whom God has given me here”. Notice the word here. The allusion is to the gentile position, and Christ’s present position as God hides His face from the house of Jacob. Christ is among the gentiles, and these sons are what he has there. Joseph says, “whom God has given me here”. It seems to me that we may nestle under the fact that we are gentiles: it is fruit to Christ in the Egyptian world, the gentile world — “whom God has given me here;” and Jacob, the father, brings them up to the level of the sonship, they are brought up to the level of the sonship of Reuben and Simeon. As Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine, he says earlier (verse 5). This is a further thought, and links on with what we have had as to leaning on Christ. We are now elevated to sonship, and it is not less than the full thought. Our sonship is not inferior to any, in fact it is the supreme thought, association with Christ.

Rem The father says, “And now thy two sons, who were born to thee in the land of Egypt before I came to thee into Egypt, shall be mine”. It seems to be a wonderful link in the ways of God although sonship relates to counsel.

JT It seems to be that: “whom God has given me here”.

PHH Jacob says that, before he has seen the sons, but verses 8 and 9, which we have read, are what he said when the sons are actually brought ^[p. 506] to him. Is that the order in assembly service; following on the leaning on the Beloved, we are brought as sons into the presence of the Father?

JT That is all very beautiful. They are brought to him, it says, “Bring them, I pray thee, to me, that I may bless them ... And he brought them nearer to him; and he kissed them, and embraced them”. It is all very beautiful; it is the result of being elevated really, and yet they were born in Egypt. “Whom God has given me here”, Joseph says. It seems to me that we are brought into this realm of supreme affection, typified here; the Father giving us the full place of sonship and embracing us: “he brought them nearer to him; and he kissed them”.

SJH Is the order in which we reach these things the same when we enter into matters in the assembly, the feminine side first, and then the masculine?

JT The masculine is the greater, I think; that is sonship. God has predestinated us to sonship.