THE WITNESS OF GOD - THE HOLY SPIRIT
[p. 276] THE WITNESS OF GOD - THE HOLY SPIRIT
John 15:16 - 27; 1 John 5:6 - 9
JT The verses in John 15 are particularly important in regard to what is before us, because of the distinction between the testimony of the apostles, the twelve, and the witness of the Spirit. John alone of the evangelists treats of the Spirit in this peculiar way, and I think it is in view of his ministry having an application to a period when the apostles had passed off the scene. The witness of the Spirit remains, so that we have it today. The apostles’ witness is only in writings now, whereas the Spirit witnesses in an active, living way to the end.
AFM Would you divorce those witnesses when they were in action? I mean, the witness of the Spirit and the witness of the apostles. They are distinct, but the Spirit has not taken a body, therefore the witness must be in a vessel.
JT The apostles, of course, witnessed by the Spirit; but, then, they were not the only ones. I think the witness of the Spirit, as distinct from the apostles, refers to others who were taken up, but not as companions of the Lord on earth, particularly Paul, and therefore the application to the present time.
HG Would the distinction between apostolic testimony and the witness of the Spirit find a counterpart in Revelation 2, Revelation 3, where the Lord Himself has a word to each of the churches? It is put on record and then it says; “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”, as though the Spirit of God, in livingness here, would give us ever fresh touches in regard to what the Lord had to say.
JT I think that is helpful. What the Lord said is recorded; what the Spirit says is not recorded.
[p. 277] I have understood that the ministry of the Spirit in any given epoch, the epochs being marked off by the several addresses, would have reference to the Lord’s message to the church addressed.
HG And giving in a certain sense a peculiar application to it at the moment.
JT Many may be used by the Spirit in that ministry, but it is the ministry of the Spirit, and the voice is a present, living one.
WB Does this refer to the outside or the inside circle? Is the Spirit’s witness for the world, or is it in relation to the assembly?
JT Here, I think, it is general. Later on He says: “He will bring demonstration to the world”, John 16:8. In chapter 15 He is here as sent by Christ to bear witness and therefore the Lord is not limited to the twelve. He has the Spirit, which would continue right down to the end, so that there is always to be a testimony, as we get in Revelation 22:17; “whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely”.
HG You can understand the awful darkness, in Rome especially, where the place of the true “Vicar of Christ” is usurped by a man. Of course, what you are speaking of now in a way is a cardinal feature of our day; I mean, the presence of the Spirit.
JT Since Rome took up an apostate position, every movement of the Spirit has been countered by it. There has always been a movement on the part of Rome to nullify or darken any movement of the Spirit. One could easily cite instances. The most notable is that immediately after the Reformation, the famous Council of Trent, which was presumably to enable the various voices in Christendom to assert themselves, but which ultimately ended in Rome’s absolute control so that everything was dominated by Rome, although supposed to be a free assembly,
[p. 278] and, as a result, certain apocryphal writings were canonised. In the presence of the authority of Scripture being asserted in the Reformation as the sole arbiter of faith, they brought in a lie and set it up alongside of the Scriptures. And then, in the last century, at the Vatican Council, when the great revival asserting the presence and authority of the Spirit had taken place, the infallibility of the Pope was asserted; so that, the presence and action of the Spirit in the assembly being asserted, Rome boldly declares that the Pope’s word is infallible under certain circumstances. We may see, therefore, that that system is used of the devil to counter the movements of the Spirit. The word to us is: “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says”. I do not think Rome would formally object to what the Lord says. That is recorded as Scripture, but it is the present ministry of the Spirit which is opposed.
AEH Does not the principle of Romanism permeate the whole mass, more or less?
JT Well, it does, and so the whole fabric of Christendom practically sets aside the ministry of the Spirit, the witness of the Spirit.
FM In Thyatira the form of the address is changed, so that the overcomer is put first and “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says” Revelation 2:29 is put last. It is the overcomer now who hears the voice of the Spirit.
JT That shows that anyone who remains in that system cannot get the good of the Spirit, the ministry of the Spirit. He is shut off from it. Peter tells the high priest in Jerusalem that the apostles were witnesses of Christ’s resurrection. We are witnesses, he says, and “the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him” Acts 5:32; so that the witness of the Spirit would lie in those that obey [p. 279] Christ.
JB-t So the conditions in human religious organisations would be unsuitable for the Spirit of God to identify Himself with.
JT That is right, and therefore, as was remarked, the overcomer comes before the appeal to those who have an ear to hear in Thyatira.
AN It comes out very clearly in the epistle to the Hebrews. In the third chapter the house of God is where the voice of the Spirit is heard, “To-day if ye will hear his voice”, Hebrews 3:7. Connected with that we have salvation as obeying Christ: He “became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him”, Hebrews 5:9. I thought these were the conditions; the will is in check, Christ is in control, and there you get the free activity of the Spirit of God.
JT So that Hebrews is a transitional epistle, taking the Hebrew saints on to the line of the Spirit’s witness. The Lord is the authoritative speaker in Hebrews, not the twelve. What the Lord said was confirmed by those who heard Him (Hebrews 2:3), but, the house being set up, the Holy Spirit is speaking in it, so that, as you say, it is as the Holy Spirit says (not ‘said’), and then He cites Psalm 8, showing in detail what the witness of the Spirit really means. It is a present thing but it brings in the Scriptures. It brings in the Scriptures and makes them speak at the present time; any brother may be used. It is in the house; it would be through some person that the Holy Spirit would witness, but it is the Holy Spirit that is doing it. It shows what the house is, and the importance of being in subjection in it. It is in those who are subject that you get this witness.
HG You feel that in Peter, in a certain sense, you get the subjection of affection in leaving the boat. A boat is a very circumscribed area, but on the water there is an unlimited sphere in which to move — very much like the Spirit’s sphere. Then Peter gets full [p. 280] light in regard to the church; Matthew 16. You get no light in regard to the church in the boat.
JT So the revelation to Peter was given at Caesarea-Philippi.
AFM Outside the boundary of Judaea.
AEH Stephen connects the testimony of the Holy Spirit with what had gone before in the way of witness.
JT “Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost; as your fathers did, so do ye”, Acts 7:51. What their fathers resisted was given in the Old Testament by the Spirit, “Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost”, 2 Peter 1:21. They were now resisting the Spirit as present in the assembly.
AN I thought of that verse you quoted. The conditions in which the Spirit of God can operate — “holy men of God”. They were holy men. That is, if the Spirit is to speak through a vessel, there must be those conditions present — holy men.
AFM In the first verse we read we have the Spirit as specifically testifying of Christ. Would that be because of Christ having come in as the faithful and true Witness, but would you limit it to Christ personally?
JT He is particularly connected with Christ in those three chapters, I think. In John 14, John 15 and John 16 the issue was really between Christ and the Jews. Chapter 14 is: “I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter” John 14:16 — “another”, that would be for them. That is what the Holy Spirit would be to them.
“He may be with you for ever”, John 14:16. The world cannot receive Him, cannot see Him or know Him, but “ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you”. John 14:17. Chapter 14, therefore, is what the Holy Spirit is to us, as with us. But chapter 15 is witness to Christ, and so He is presented as sent by Him as having been with the Father (verse 26).
WB “The Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father” John 15:26.
JT That is the way it should be. Emphasis is on the fact that the Holy Spirit comes forth from with the Father, and as sent by Christ. He would bear all the grace of the Father, the care of the Father, in His witness; but He witnesses as distinct from the twelve. They have their own line. He would bear witness; they also, but He specially would be the Witness.
AL We may say the whole testimony of the Spirit is found in these three chapters (14, 15 and 16), “He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you”, John 14:26 and “He shall testify of me”, etc. It is all about Christ.
JT I was going to say that it is about Christ in these chapters. But I think we can understand that the Holy Spirit’s presence here in a general way has reference to revelation. The believer is baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but these three chapters bear on the Lord’s issue with the Jews, or with the world, and therefore prominence is given to what the Holy Spirit witnessed about Him.
AL I was struck with what you read in the epistle. It says there, “The Spirit is the truth” and, in regard to what you were saying about Thyatira — the doctrine of demons: forbidding to marry and abstaining from meats — when man took hold of the truth it gave the demons an opportunity to corrupt it.
JT Quite. Where there is an issue with Christ, the ministry of the Spirit is to bear on the glory of Christ. There was no question with the Jews as to God as such, “we have one father, God”, John 8:41. They claimed relationship with God, but the Lord says “If God were your father ye would have loved says, me”, John 8:42. They claimed that God was their [p. 282] Father, so that there was no question between them and God, ostensibly. The question was between them and Christ, and the Holy Spirit is sent by Christ and He bears testimony to Christ; so that in the next chapter He says, “He will bring demonstration to the world, of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe on me; of righteousness, because I go away to my Father.. of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged”, John 16:8 - 12 It all bore witness to Christ, so that the Holy Spirit coming in at Pentecost decided the issue between the Jews and Christ, and decided in favour of Christ. Publicly, Christ was vindicated. I think that is the bearing of these chapters, and there can be no doubt it has application at the present time, because of the treatment the Lord is receiving, as we might say, at the hands of His friends in modern Christendom. The Holy Spirit bears witness to Christ.
AFM That is, in a positive, active way. I was wondering, when the Spirit came down as cloven or ‘parted’ tongues of fire and sat on each of them, whether that would not be the moment when the fulfilment of this word took place; and then you have Peter’s testimony following that.
JT His presence at Pentecost was a vindication of Christ, and I think that bears on the present position, because the Lord is receiving shameful treatment at the hands of those who profess to be His friends today. Many who pretend to minister in His name have proved to be traitors to Him, and I think the testimony of the Spirit would be in regard to Him first, because you can have no thought of revelation or of the counsels of God unless Christ is vindicated. There must be a vindication of Him.
AN He will bring demonstration to the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Is that for the [p. 283] benefit of the assembly, or is it testimony to the world?
JT I think it is for believers. The position is like a court of justice: there was an issue. God was recognised by parties, as it were. The Jew did not deny God’s rights — I mean formally. They did really, but they did not formally, so that the Spirit is the witness. He convicts. His testimony is overwhelming, and it is in favour of Christ. I think that is the point today. If the truth relating to Christ’s person is not made clear and maintained, you cannot have anything; so that the first great service of the Spirit is to make clear who Christ is, and what His rights are.
AN Mr. Stoney used to put the church into the jury box. That is, that the Spirit is bearing witness as to the treatment which the world had meted out to Christ “of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father; of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged”. John 16:9 - 11. The Spirit brings such overwhelming evidence about the guilt of the world that the jury says, ‘We have no doubt about it; we are done with it’.
JT I am quite sure that is right. One can see the force of it today, because we can have nothing really unless the principle of the Spirit’s presence is maintained, and hence the witness of the Spirit in every one of us bears on the Person of Christ. That is the point noted in John’s gospel at the outset, the Person of Christ, and if that is made clear, every true lover of Christ will rally to it. We have thus a common basis on which to go; we all agree on the truth of the Person of Christ.
AL In regard to Thyatira, do you not think that as the Lord has spoken “to the rest in Thyatira”, Revelation 2:24, there are those who are clear of it? On the other hand, the assembly at Thyatira on the Jezebel line says the church has [p. 284] the truth.
JT The great thing for each of us is to be a vessel for the Spirit. The Spirit bears witness. He bears witness through whom He will, that is to say, through available persons.
AL Those who “have not this doctrine” Revelation 2:24 — He speaks as if there was a sphere for the Spirit in Thyatira.
GAT Would John’s witness and the Spirit’s witness be about the same? There was nothing of John in his witness, and the Spirit would not speak of Himself. We are hindered by bringing ourselves in as witnesses here for Christ.
JT The Spirit does not speak as “from himself” John 16:13; as He hears He speaks. The Holy Spirit has come down in the most touching lowliness. Although the third Person, as we speak, in the Godhead, He has taken a Servant’s place and He does not speak from Himself. So the vessels He uses must be in accord with Him, those who are not self-occupied, “holy men”, as was said.
HG Was Christ vindicated by the Spirit at Pentecost, meaning that the features of Christ appeared here in men as testimony? Is that the thought?
JT I think that is what the Scripture presents when it says, “He will bring demonstration”. John 16:8. The Jews had not believed on Christ, and now the Spirit was there from Him as in heaven. They were thus convicted of sin; also there was the evidence of righteousness, for Christ was with the Father, they having refused Him. It was righteousness that He should go to the Father, and so Peter says: “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear”, Acts 2:33. There it was. Everybody could see it and hear [p. 285] it.
HG I was thinking, even in regard of all who love the Lord, people like the Quakers, who do not observe either baptism or the Lord’s supper, what a tremendous amount of material which speaks of Christ is lost, so that the Spirit of God has not material with which to work. You see the value of baptism, which puts you in accord with Christ as severing you from the world, and you recognise the spiritual food in the Lord’s supper, all of which the Spirit of God can use to bring Christ before you. Hence the importance of availing yourself of everything that speaks of Christ, in order to make room for the Spirit in that way.
AN I thought in that way regarding what you refer to as to the vindication of Christ at Pentecost, that the trumpet gave no uncertain sound. The issue was definitely asserted: “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ”, Acts 2:36. There was nothing uncertain about it now. Christ was vindicated, and those who are on that line will get the support of the Spirit.
JT Just so. The testimony was, ‘You have rejected Christ, but God has received Him’. That is the point. The Holy Spirit given to the disciples of Christ publicly decided the issue as against the Jews, who had rejected Him.
HG So in a man full of the Holy Spirit, as with Stephen, we feel how perfectly Christ is vindicated — I mean in his closing words. He sees the heavens opened and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
JT And then he himself is like the Lord, as you were saying. There can be no doubt that Saul was affected by that witness, “It is hard for thee to kick I against the pricks”. Acts 26:14. There was something there that touched him.
I think it is very important that we should see the bearing of John’s ministry on our own times; that [p. 286] as the Lord had received shameful handling among His friends, the Jews, so He has received shameful handling, morally, by those who profess to be His friends; and the way God would answer that is by the witness of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit here will not fail to bring out the glory of Christ, the personal glory of Christ, and what is due to Him. The thing, therefore, is first for each one to be subject, because the Holy Spirit is given to those who are subject; and, as having the Spirit, to be holy, so that He may witness through us.
JB-t I suppose the Spirit of God in coming, as it says here, would bring the knowledge of all the delight of the Father’s heart in the exaltation of Christ, the glorification of Christ, the way that He has been received up there, as in contrast to the whole system of things around us here.
JT So that you are impressed, when a brother is ministering who loves the Lord, how the Holy Spirit bears on the glory of Christ. The Holy Spirit, it says, came down in a bodily form as a dove, and abode upon Him; Luke 3:22. You can understand what delight the Holy Spirit had in that Christ was the expression of the Father’s delight, because the Father’s voice had uttered: “Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight”. Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22.
Well, now that He has gone up to heaven He sends that Spirit “from with the Father”, carrying with Him the knowledge of Father’s delight in and affection for the Son. And the Spirit, having His own affections, has come down here and would make everything of Christ, for unless Christ has His place in men’s hearts, God cannot work out His thoughts, nor can love become effective. If we are defective about the Person of Christ, we are defective about everything.
HG Hence the instructions given by John to the elect lady in regard to any that do not bring the [p. 287] doctrine of Christ, which is a prevailing and increasing evil today.
AFM I notice that the context of this passage (John 16) brings in the hostility of the Jew. The Spirit as come down is in contrast to all that. What you have said about the present day is very important, because the treatment that Christ is receiving today at the hands of some of those who profess to love Him is terrible.
JT Hence, if every Christian is subject to Christ, and a vessel thus of the Spirit, there will be a witness to the Person of Christ to offset all this. Every believer who has the Spirit may witness to the personal glory of Christ.
HG So with Stephen, they could not resist “the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake”, Acts 6:10.
JT An unofficial man, as you might say. He was a deacon, of course, but in regard to the testimony he had no commission, so that he, I think, is an evidence of what the Holy Spirit can do through unofficial persons — those who are subject. Stephen was “full of faith and of the Holy Ghost”. Acts 6:5.
AFM We all know we may read the Scriptures many times before the Spirit brings to our attention some new perfection of Christ. Then you speak of that.
JT Just so, you speak of Him, like Anna did.
AL In regard to the Scripture you quoted about the Spirit descending on Him in bodily shape. It would refer to and emphasise, would it not, His manhood and incarnation.
JT Yes. It was what God had found in Him. The word ‘found’ is helpful there, “in thee I have found my delight”, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22 showing that He had been looking for it. It is as a Man, so that the centurion in Luke says, “This man was just”, Luke 23:47 That is the testimony in Luke at the cross, where it was a question of the righteousness of that Man. In the [p. 288] other evangelists, in Matthew and Mark, it is “Truly this man was the Son of God”. Matthew 27:54, Mark 15:39. God teaches righteousness in a Man. The centurion says, “Truly this man is just”. Luke 23:47. God says, ‘I will take Him up here’. That is God’s answer to the questions raised about Jesus by His enemies. In Luke He is carried up into heaven. Here (John 16:10) it is, “of righteousness, because I go to my Father”.
JB-t I suppose the prince of this world is the great opposition to what the Spirit would testify, what the Spirit would form as to Christ in our affections — “the prince of this world is judged”. John 12:31.
JT First demonstration is brought in of sin. What is sin? Then, what is righteousness? That Man, who was so delightful to God here, is acknowledged to be righteous by the centurion, and God takes Him up to Himself. He is with the Father. That is the expression of righteousness that the Holy Spirit testifies. Everything is made to hinge about Christ.
What is sin? Well, sin is lawlessness. That is the definition of sin in Scripture. Here sin is that they believed not on Christ, as the Holy Spirit says. The great evidence of sin in men is that they believe not in Christ, and hence you can see the bearing of that principle at the present time. Do men believe on Christ? Do they believe the truth of His Person? The sin of men today is that they do not believe on Christ, and the ministry of the Spirit is convicting them.
BTF Would you say that the demonstration spoken of here is to the believer, that is, the demonstration is brought to the believer’s heart that these things are true?
JT I think it is particularly for the believer, that we might believe. Of course, it is there for anyone.
AFM While sin is lawlessness, as defined by the Spirit, it is the peculiar character of it here; there [p. 289] is abundant testimony as to who Christ is and they do not believe in Him.
JT It is indeed solemn that men as men do not believe on Christ. Note the wonderful representative of Christ in Stephen. Full of grace and power, he wrought wonders and great signs among the people; then his face shone as an angel; then his wonderful address and testimony to Christ and heaven, and his prayer for his murderers. But they stoned him.
GAT They are not convicted for sinning in the ordinary sense, but for not believing on Christ.
JT That is it, but I think it bears specially on those who have had the Lord. The Jews were in close contact with Him, and so these ‘modernists’, these unbelievers of today, have been in relation to Christ. They have handled the truth; they are the custodians of it professedly.
And then the third thing is judgment. His demonstration of judgment is that those who witness should have a definite understanding of the judgment of God; they know that the ruler of this world is judged. John specially exposes Satan’s relation with the world; he is its prince or ruler. This shows how apostate the world is.
JB-t Does that set the saints on a platform of victory in the power of the Spirit today?
JT I think, as our brother remarked, we are like the jury. Christians have a definite understanding of the judgment of God as to this world and as to Satan as its prince.
LS It is sad that in Isaiah, where the witness is brought in, it is there over against the witness of those who professed that they were the people of God, and there you have it: “That ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he”, Isaiah 43:9,10.
JT Just so. The Lord had used that word:
“[p. 290] If ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins”, John 8:24.
AFM Everything is connected with Christ in John.
JT Yes. The first great witness of the Spirit has reference to the Person of Christ, how He is the test of everything, and in John’s epistle the thought is continued. The witness of the Holy Spirit has still reference to Christ, the witness that God gives to His Son.
AFM Would you mind, before going on to that, saying in what way the ruler of this world is judged?
JT I think he is judged in the things that have come out in him. His true character is exposed. It is not that the judgment is executed, but he is judged in his true character being exposed. This gospel speaks of him as the prince of this world. In John judgment is seen in the occasion of it, e.g., “This is the judgment, that light is come into the world, and men have loved darkness rather than light”, John 3:19.
JB-t Satan is manifested. Would that be it?
JT Quite. He exposed himself in the wilderness, as seeking to turn the Lord aside from the path of God’s will. To that extent he is exposed, but in John’s gospel he comes back, “The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me”, John 14:30. Now he comes back, not to seduce the Lord, but to bring to bear upon Him all that he could to deter Him from the path of the will of God. Besides, he was leading the world against the Lord. There was nothing in Christ at all for Satan. He evidently thought that he could terrorise the Lord by bringing to bear upon Him the judgment of death, but he is exposed. The awful measures of Satan in these closing hours is the full exposure of what he is. He [p. 291] is exposed.
AFM Would Judas come out as being a representative of Satan?
JT Yes, Satan’s character comes out in all his agents; Judas, I suppose, being the most abominable of them. He was the Lord’s own friend. It says Satan entered into him, and the Lord says, “That thou doest, do quickly”. John 13:27.
AN As far as we have gone in connection with the witness of the Spirit, we have really the unfolding of the assembly’s position here on earth. That is, the assembly is the divine witness as to the true character of the world, how it stands in relation to Christ. And then you get those who are attached to Christ, who are held by their attachment to Christ; they are detached from the world system. And now that the Spirit of God can bear witness to Christ, that which marks the assembly at the present moment is that it is in direct contact with heaven, that everything has really come from heaven by the way of the Spirit.
GWH-n Do you not think that there comes a time in the life of the believer when he must thoroughly decide as to the Person of Christ? Having got relief by forgiveness, the Person of Christ comes up and one has to be thoroughly decided in his soul as to the greatness of His Person. Then from that point on he begins to move into revelation.
JT Quite, and the value of His work, because, aside from the truth of the Person of Christ, you cannot have expiation — there is no one competent to effect it. The great point, therefore, is the competency of One to reveal God and to take away the sin of the world. That is the truth that has to be demonstrated and hence the great importance of John’s gospel in our own times, because the truth of the Person of Christ has been attacked and beclouded.
EGMcA It simplifies the path of the Christian, does it not? There is only one Person the Spirit of God has before Him, and that one Person He brings [p. 292] before every Christian, whereas the modernist brings you into devious pathways.
JT His thought is to make you disbelieve; make you doubt.
AFM And exalt the wrong man.
EGMcA Do the first two verses of the fourth chapter of the epistle come in here — “try the spirits”? 1 John 4:1.
JT Well, just so. The Lord knew all men, as was remarked elsewhere. Solomon had said, “What man is, is known” Ecclesiastes 6:10, and the Lord goes on that. What man is was known perfectly to Him. These modern investigations are long behind the times; the matter is all settled. It says, “He knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man”. John 2:25.
“We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen, and ye receive not our witness”. John 3:11. That is over against the ignorant pretension of men. If you look at the modern textbooks of these investigations as to man’s origin, etc., they never allude to this witness of the Lord; they never pay the least attention to the most wonderful testimony that God has given. You can well understand it, because they are making up a lie, and this exposes them. They do not come to the light. It says, “He that doeth truth cometh to the light”. John 3:21.
AN Don’t you think that in that way we often take a wrong position in regard to the judgment of evil? We are often actuated or influenced by just a common standard of right and wrong, but there is one thing that gives clearness of vision and definiteness of judgment, that is, when the thing is looked at in relation to Christ. I thought of the apostles when they came together in the first of Acts in regard of Judas. They have got a very definite judgment about Judas, but not on a common standard of right and wrong, but he was “guide to them that took Jesus”. Acts 1:16. I thought it was his act in relation to Jesus that [p. 293] stamped his character upon him, and that perhaps might help us today. As having to come in contact with the world, we have the clear, convincing witness of the Spirit as to the true character of the world and its refusal of Christ, and that there is no place for Christ. Well, there is only one path of fidelity to Him, that you go on with Him, and as you go on with Him you get the help and witness of the Spirit.
JT In the epistle the witness is to the Lord’s death. If we are clear as to the Person of Christ, the next thing is to be clear about His death, the meaning of His death: “This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness”.
John, in his gospel, says that the soldier pierced the Lord’s side and “forthwith came thereout blood and water”. John 19:34. The blood is first, and he introduces himself as a competent witness that what he says is true. That is the historical fact. He saw it; he saw the blood and the water. That is a fixed historical testimony. But he does not allude to himself as a witness in his epistle. He does allude to himself earlier as a witness to the Person of Christ (chapter 1), but when he comes to this chapter, witnessing to the efficacy of the death of Christ, he says the Holy Spirit is the witness. His witness continues in an active, living way.
AFM Why are the terms reversed? Here it is the water first.
JT I think it is because the bearing of it is in a time when believers were clearer in regard to the blood than they were in regard to the water. There are thousands of believers today who are clear as to the blood, but who have little or no understanding of the water; the water bears on my religious and social relations and associations. I can enjoy in measure the efficacy of the blood of Christ to my conscience,
[p. 294] and yet remain in unclean associations. The water bears on my associations and my practical state.
BTF The water is moral cleansing.
WB In the gospel it is more what is for God, and here it is more what it is for us.
JT More from our side. The Holy Spirit is witnessing to it constantly to us. He bears witness to the water that we should be clean — not only have purged consciences, but be clean in our associations, our affections, and our minds. The Holy Spirit is witnessing constantly to the death of Christ in that relation.
AFM I notice in the end of Zechariah 12 you have a great work of separation going on, and then in the thirteenth a fountain is opened “for sin and uncleanness”. Zechariah 13:1 Would that be parallel with this scripture?
JT I think so. You have the sin first, and then uncleanness — the two features. But it is a fountain — water — so moral cleansing is in view.
GAT I like that explanation. I think I am clear as to the blood, but do not know very much as to what the water really means. On that account, perhaps, we are hindered and do not see the danger of being associated with unclean things.
JT The end of the witness of the Holy Spirit in applying the death of Christ to us here, is to cleanse us in our minds, our affections, and our associations; and I think that is the reason why John in his epistle puts the water first. It is not everything, of course, because one might be right, in a way in these things and yet not know the value of the blood — “not by water only, but by water and blood”. The two things must be always kept together, but emphasis may be laid on one or the other.
AFM Explain to us the significance of water. We know that naturally it is a cleansing element, but [p. 295] how is it applied in regard to the death of Christ to ourselves, in relation to our associations?
JT I think it is applied as dealing with our state. “Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit”, it says; 2 Corinthians 7:1. The filthiness of the flesh is easy to define, perhaps. We might easily define the filthiness of the flesh as what men indulge in, but perhaps we may not be able to define what filthiness of the spirit is. There are many who are affected by spiritual filthiness who could not, perhaps, be charged with fleshly pollutions.
AN That in a way accounts for so little knowledge of eternal life, as being in the enjoyment of it. I might be quite clear about the blood and what we get through the claims of God having been vindicated, but, on the other hand, if I am going on with what is morally unsuitable to God, I could not really taste much of what eternal life is; but the death of Christ has not only met what I have done, but it brings to an end everything that I am as a child of the first Adam and what I might take delight in naturally.
AFM And the water here is a witness to that.
AEH Do the words “He came by water and blood” suggest a new sphere, new associations?
JT It is to call attention to Christ; He came in connection with the things that we need. In the gospel emphasis is laid on His Person. The epistle would lay emphasis on His consideration for us, His compassion, how that, in coming into manhood, He comes in connection with two things, that is, water and blood, because He knew man needed these two things. Without these two things His coming must be ineffective, hence He comes with them.
AEH The question I had in mind was He comes — where?
JT He comes into the sphere of testimony in John’s epistle, and He comes into it in connection with these two things, so that men might be cleansed [p. 296] and have eternal life. I think it appeals to your heart that the Lord comes in connection with these two things.
JB-t It was a necessity. “The whole world lies in the wicked one”. 1 John 5:19. Eternal life could not be found in that sphere and the means of cleansing comes in, therefore, as a divine, moral necessity available for us, so that our associations might be cleansed, that the question of sin might be entirely met, and that we might be brought out of the sphere which lies in the wicked one.
JT Attention is called to Him in these verses. It is a question of Christ. He is “the true God and eternal life”. That is the end of it, so that the heart becomes attached to Him now in relation to His work and in relation to the blessing He has brought in for us.
AN I thought it really became a test for a Christian — for the young especially. What affected Luther at the beginning was that people came to confession to confess what they had actually done, but not with the thought that they might go on with something different. They thought to continue on the same lines. The water teaches that all my desires and affections go out on a line totally different from where they had been before, and I am brought into a new sphere. The water disconnects me from what I found pleasure in before.
JT That is very good, and in that new sphere you attribute everything to Christ. He has brought in the means of cleansing and life. He is the life, so that while the gospel is what He is in His own Person, in the epistle it is what has come in in connection with Him for my good — the means of cleansing and everlasting life. He is the true God to me and He is eternal life.
EGMcA All this would produce holy men.
JT Quite. As in the light and enjoyment of [p. 297] these things, the saints themselves are a witness to Christ: God has given to them eternal life.
AFM This word ‘came’, I was wondering whether it is incarnation or whether it is subsequent to that. It involves incarnation, but it says “He came by water and blood”. Having His death in view, He comes to the sphere of testimony.
JT It is His coming into the sphere of testimony, involving incarnation, of course. You have the Person before you. He came by, in connection with, these things, the water and blood; we thus see that in coming, His death was in view.
AFM His coming here had specifically in view the cleansing of man?
JT Quite, and the introduction of man into a new order of things. What our brother remarked is very practical, because you come to the confessional and you confess your sins, as the Roman Catholics and others do, but then it is not to go into a new order of things at all. It is to go back into the old thing and pile up another debt. That is all it means, whereas the Lord has brought in the means of delivering me altogether and of bringing in a new order of things. In that new order of things we “know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols”. 1 John 5:20,21. You are thus set up in a new order of things.
AL Is not that the reason why Peter brings in the scripture: “The demand as before God of a good conscience, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ”, 1 Peter 3:21?
AN Peter says, “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit”, 1 Peter 1:22. I thought it was not merely the guilt removed, but purification of soul through the Spirit. “Unto unfeigned love of the brethren”. You have come into a new circle of affections. There is love there.
[p. 298] AL The Lord Himself is said to be cleansing and purifying the assembly by the “washing of water by the word” Ephesians 5:26, but when we come to Corinthians it says: “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves” 2 Corinthians 7:l — not the Lord exactly. We could not do it without Him, but “let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit”. Our spirit requires the same action of the water. That is what I thought was our side.
JT There is another witness of the Spirit in Hebrews 10 which really finishes the subject. The Holy Spirit is a witness to us that our sins and iniquities are remembered no more. There is in that chapter, the will of God, the work of Christ, and the witness of the Spirit; the manner of the witness is involved in that He cites from the terms of the new covenant. That is how He witnesses. “The Holy Ghost also is a witness to us” Hebrews 10:15 — not was a witness in what He said in ancient times. He brings the thing He said then into the present; it is made a present witness to us that God does not remember our sins or iniquities any more.
JB-t And He would be the positive power of that new sphere, that new order of which we have been speaking.
AFM Where do you place what witness — Hebrews 10?
JT It is that we may be free to enter the holiest. The Holy Spirit witnesses to the eternal efficacy of the work of Christ. God writes His love in our hearts and understanding, and our sins and lawlessnesses He remembers no more. This sets us free to enter into the presence of God. There is another thought in Romans: “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God”, Romans 8:16. So His service in the [p. 299] way of witnessing enters into the whole position of the Christian here.
AFM In our scripture (1 John 5), there is more. He goes on to witness to eternal life.
JT He does. I think the verse we ended with is the completion of God’s witness to His Son. Then there is the witness that you have in yourself as a believer; and those who have eternal life as a further present enjoyment are themselves witnesses.
AL Is that the witness that God has given, “that God hath given to us eternal life”? 1 John 5:11. God now has a witness in us. Is that what is meant by “He that believeth hath the witness in himself”? 1 John 5:10.
JT I think that means he has life, and so is himself a witness. “This is the witness that God hath given to us eternal life” — God has given to us and this is a witness to His Son.
AL There is a beautiful combination — all divine Beings are witnesses, and witnesses not only to us but in us.
AFM There is wonderful completeness to the witness of the Spirit.
JT This afternoon we come, please God, to what the saints are as witnesses.