FACING DEATH
FACING DEATH
JT The brethren will be aware that what is in mind in chapter 5 at the outset, is the actual article of death; that is, the dissolution of the body; and in view of what we have had this afternoon, no doubt the brethren will recognise the importance of facing this matter, although we have the promise of the Lord that He is coming for us, and encouragement to us to love His appearing, not His coming, but His appearing. Yet as we have remarked today already, we are all liable to death; those of us who are alive now are liable to death, and therefore it is clear that the Lord would have us in readiness, as it is said, “Be ye also ready (Matthew 24:44)”. No doubt we have observed the suggestion in several places in these epistles, of the apostle having been written to for information, and therefore we are encouraged to ask for information if it be available. So here he indicates his readiness to extend information when needed. So he says, “We know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens”; the allusion being to the believer’s body, and the possibility of it being destroyed, and hence our wisdom to be ready for such an emergency, such a solemn event, for it is certain that we shall either be changed into conformity to Christ’s body of glory, or we shall die first, and therefore shall have to be raised.
JM Is the body here regarded as being a hindrance? “In this we groan”.
JT Just so; it is a hindrance, but intended doubtless to be discipline to us, which we do not always wish but undoubtedly the condition of our bodies becomes a discipline to us.
JM I was thinking of, ‘If it be destroyed’. Is that from God’s side?
JT Yes, in that sense. It is a rough thought, but a very solemn one. I suppose more properly the word “dissolved” might cover it, but the word ‘destroyed’ is rather strong and intended to be that.
ENJ Would you say a word as to “we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens”? What is the force of “not made with hands”?
JT Well, it would come from heaven, but not, as it were, let down visibly, but as we are formed spiritually, we shall be formed physically. We are formed spiritually already, as having the Holy Spirit, but this allusion would be to being formed bodily.
LPM So that the word, “Now he that has wrought us for this very thing is God”, means spiritual formation now? He has given to us the earnest of the Spirit.
JT Yes, the formation now is spiritual: “He that has wrought us for this very thing is God, who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit”. That is, He has wrought us, or formed us, with a view to our bodily formation.
ENJ Do I understand that spiritual formation is one thing, and the house in which it will be housed eternally, another?
JT Well, it is not very wise to undertake to differentiate or distinguish between the two, because the formation that we receive as we are converted, as we are born anew, and as we come into redemption, is final. That is the preparation that God has made for us. The actual body is the house. It is spoken of in Romans 8; the word “adoption” is applied to the redemption of our bodies, and we are said to await it.
AED Is it in contrast to the previous chapter, in which there is disparity between the earthen vessel [p. 201] and what is in it? Whereas what is clothed and the clothing here are in accord.
JT Well, they will be in resurrection, because what is alluded to here is resurrection — “clothed upon”. In the meantime all that is left is the identity of the believer, and the formation that attaches to it. It is what is intended or included in the idea of new birth, and all that enters into the thought of redemption, which would be the salvation of our souls, as Peter teaches. In Romans 8 we have the idea of the redemption or salvation of our bodies as well. The word salvation covers the body, as is seen in Philippians 3:20,21, so that we can speak rightly of body salvation as well as soul salvation, and what is involved here is body salvation, clothing with a house which is from heaven.
JAA What is the force of the body that we shall receive being out of heaven?
JT Well, it is what we get when the Lord comes for us. We are looking for that redemption, and being clothed from heaven. John’s epistle says, “If it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is 1 John 3:2”. Not as He was, but as He is. And that is what is alluded to in Philippians, we shall be like Him; we shall be clothed with a body like His body of glory; that is the final thought as to salvation. Christ’s body of glory is to be the pattern of ours, not what He was here during the forty days, but what He is now.
LPM So that the temporary conditions alluded to in chapter 4 are giving way to a permanent condition of things, are they?
JT The temporary condition is what we are here in testimony; that is really what is meant.
LPM So that the allusion in the Revelation to the witnesses prophesying so many days and the allusion here in chapter 4 to “day by day”, are connected with the sphere of testimony?
JT [p. 202] Just so. We are in the sphere of testimony here in the body. If we are disembodied we are not in testimony, although with the Lord. I am sure that is important for everybody to see, that it is in our bodies we are in testimony, even in a temporary sense for the moment, and we are left here to be in testimony.
ET Is this word ‘knowing’ important for us to get hold of, that we might be in testimony in buoyancy, not unduly weighed down by sicknesses and so on? In verse 1, “For we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed”; in verse 6, “Therefore we are always confident, and know that while present in the body we are absent from the Lord”.
JT I suppose the apostle would allude to what he had taught them in chapter 15 of the first epistle, which teaches doctrinally what is in mind here. It is a long chapter, but it tells us that we are sown in weakness, we are raised in power, we are sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. That is what is alluded to here, that we know. That knowledge is acquired in the first epistle; and therefore we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, that is, if we are going to die, we have a building from God, eternal in the heavens. We are accepting that. If dissolution takes place now, we are hoping for another body, a house; the word “house” referring to our bodies, whether they are dissolved, that is, “our earthly tabernacle house”, or whether they are risen, as Christ is, that is, “our house which is from heaven”. There is much allusion in Paul’s epistles to what he had taught earlier, and these chapters are of this peculiar kind. He had already said much to them, and he is basing this second epistle on what he had said.
FRG What is the point in verse 4, “While yet we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed”?
[p. 203] Is it in mind that we would look forward to the Lord’s return for us?
JT That is right; we do not wish to die, in other words. That is what is in mind, although elsewhere he says it would be better, but he is looking for the resurrection and the glory of Christ coming in. So that this chapter and chapter 4 are intended to greatly encourage our hearts, and it is important for every brother and sister, old and young here, to take it in, so as to be ready for any of these things happening.
AED In both the first epistle and this chapter Paul uses the words “swallowed up”. Would you say something as to that?
JT Well, they are strong words, as if, instead of being dead and buried, that is, put into the grave, you are swallowed up by life. “That what is mortal may be swallowed up by life”. I would like to hear your further thought about it, for it is a time for all of us to say what we think.
AED Well, I think we all noticed your comment somewhere, as to the expression about somebody ‘passing away’. This is foreign to that.
JT I think it is. I never like the expression ‘passing away’, as meaning somebody has died. Paul says, “To depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better (Philippians 1:23)”. That is a beautiful expression. In this chapter we have the expression “pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord”.
WJB Has the apostle Peter a balanced outlook in relation to this when he says, “I account it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance, knowing that the putting off of my tabernacle is speedily to take place, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has manifested to me”, 2 Peter 1:13,14?
JT Peter had the exceptional advantage of being told that he should actually die, or rather be [p. 204] martyred. The Lord had told him that. He does not tell us all; we have to wait and count on Him as to it. But that is what Peter alluded to, actual death, dissolution. He tells us the Lord had showed him that.
PRP Would you mind saying a word as to verse 9. “Wherefore also we are zealous, whether present or absent, to be agreeable to him”?
JT It is remarkable that he says that. We will have to go back for that to verse 6. “Therefore we are always confident, and know that while present in the body we are absent from the Lord”. The word “present” there refers to our bodies; that is, as we are now sitting here in this hall, every one of us. We are present in the body and absent from the Lord. He is in heaven, and we are here, but then he says, “for we walk by faith, not by sight”. We have already had that thought, and it is a question of faith matters, not physical matters, we are dealing with. So it goes on to say, “we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord”. That is to say, if the Lord is pleased to take any one of us, we are pleased too, we are ready for it. We are ready to be with Him. The Lord said to the thief, “To-day shall thou be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43)”. Speaking reverently, the thief and the Lord would both be in disembodied condition, but there is no such condition as to Christ now. He is raised and glorified.
PRP Does it require a suitable body of glory to be fully agreeable to Him?
JT I would think that. The apostle proceeds to the full thought of being agreeable to Him in that condition. From other passages we would assume that we shall be creatively agreeable to Him. Everything will be according to new creation, so that we are bound to be suitable [p. 205] to Him.
PRP The great test is to be agreeable to Him at the present moment.
JT That would be the great thought Paul has in mind, that we shall be agreeable to Him while we are down here.
JMcN Is Paul in the practical enjoyment of this when he says, “I am already being poured out, and the time of my release is come. I have combated the good combat, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith”, (2 Timothy 4:6,7)?
JT That is what he alludes to. He alludes to dying, to being martyred. No doubt he had that in mind, and it was a pleasure to him; he was not afraid of it, it was a joy to him.
LPM So as you brought before us this afternoon, the necessary balance to the service of God is that this side of things is to be taken account of and maintained.
JT Very good.
LPM I thought it would sober us to face the facts we have alluded to, that dissolution awaits us all if the Lord tarries, and an account of our doings in the body will be required by Him of us.
JT So that we ought to be ready at any minute: It may be that some will be together at the breaking of bread, or together as we are now; whereas some will not be together, so that we should always be ready.
ENJ Has the apostle particularly before him the positive side here? “Wherefore also we are zealous, whether present or absent, to be agreeable to him. For we must all be manifested before the judgment-seat of the Christ, that each may receive the things done in the body, according to those he has done, whether it be good or evil”.
JT Quite. And what should take place in the interim, that is to say, there is to be an examination of what has been done in the body. We are to appear [p. 206] before the judgment-seat of Christ. It is a very real and searching thing, because transactions have to take place; that is to say, the whole history of the person has to come up before God and the Lord. The whole person has to be manifested before the judgment-seat of Christ.
ENJ I was wondering if to be agreeable to Him now would be the same thing as the good to be received.
JT I suppose the apostle running on to the full thought desires to bring it home to us now, the idea of agreeableness to Christ now; because the creational side will be perfect anyhow. We will be raised in glory; so there will be no question of our not being agreeable to Him then.
LPM Would you say these things “good or evil” apply in a particular way to our place in the testimony, how we deport ourselves and serve the Lord?
JT And the whole history of the man and woman, all that is done in the body. That is what makes it so solemn; our whole history will come into review.
AM Does not Paul bring out this side of things in connection with the Supper in 1 Corinthians 11? Following what he says as to the Supper, he speaks of how we comport ourselves in relation to that great occasion. The idea of judgment comes into it.
JT Very good. “So that whosoever shall eat the bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty in respect of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup. For the eater and drinker eats and drinks judgment to himself, not distinguishing the body. On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, so were we not judged. But being judged, we are [p. 207] disciplined of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world”, 1 Corinthians 11:27 - 32. How plain that is, and the death of how many is attributable to just that very thing: the way we conduct ourselves, not merely in the world outside, but in the assembly. Because in that chapter it is a question of what happens within. The passage begins at verse 17 and runs on to the end of the chapter.
LPM So that this reference in 2 Corinthians 5 has this matter particularly in mind; our place in the assembly in practical matters, our relations with the saints in all these matters. This passage links with the other passage.
JT Therefore 1 Corinthians 11 is so solemn as to the partaking of the Lord’s supper, because it is a question of how we view the Lord’s supper, and what we are doing in partaking of it. So that we are carefully told to tarry one for another, showing that we are to be respectful and considerate of each other in coming into the meeting.
AED There is rather a strong word there, “Do ye despise the assembly of God ... ?”
JT Yes, one often thinks of that. They ate together, and they had coteries among themselves, special friendships, and had their own seasons together, and they were despising the assembly in all that, hence the apostle says, “Have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?” (1 Corinthians 11:22) So if we have special social affairs, let it be in our houses, not when we come together in assembly.
FRG Would you tell us how far the matter of judgment goes at the judgment-seat of Christ? We would understand that sin has been finally dealt with before that. Just what is involved at the judgment-seat of Christ, and what is the effect and the end of the judgment there?
JT I think if we are accustomed to the way the [p. 208] Lord deals with us now in our souls, we shall determine somewhat what is to happen when we appear before the judgment-seat of Christ. He sometimes has to be very stern with us now, and handles us sometimes perhaps severely, and we ought to learn from these facts as to what is likely to be when we appear before Him at His judgment. It is a question of His judgment-seat. It is a judicial matter, not a gracious one. So that we learn how we are to behave before Him now, if we are to understand that time when we appear before His judgment-seat. We are then, of course, clear of everything as to the past, but at the same time all these things done in the body will have to come under review. It is all most serious, because it may happen any time to us. All has to come out. We perhaps hardly ever think of this, but the Lord thinks of it, and He is awaiting the time of manifestation.
AM Does the idea of knowing the terror of the Lord, imply the going over things with the Lord in this life?
JT I should think knowing the terror of the Lord would refer to His present dealings with us. I should not think the word terror would enter into that time. I do not think the Spirit of God would mean that here. ‘Knowing’ is the same word as we had in the first verse. We ought to know something of the terror of the Lord when we were unconverted. We know what the Lord is to an unconverted person.
ENJ So the early verses of 1 Corinthians 10 would help us as to those who were baptised to Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and whose carcases fell in the wilderness.
JT Just so.
RT Would you say that the judgment-seat of Christ is somewhat like the first four chapters of the book of Deuteronomy, where Moses goes over the whole history of the children of Israel, neither [p. 209] praising nor blaming them, but rather recounting exactly what happened?
JT That would be a good inquiry. Those are gracious chapters; they are not like Exodus, and Leviticus, and Numbers. They are Moses’ own words, Moses’ own thoughts, Moses’ own judgments, so that we are having to do with our Moses. He is a gracious Moses, but at the same time He will not fail to recount what is being done that is evil, but with grace. The book of Deuteronomy has to be understood from that point of view. It is a gracious book, because Moses at that time was almost at the end of his life, and is gracious. He was about to be changed himself. He was buried we know, but at the same time, we have to think of the end of his history, and that is, that he appears in the glory with Christ.
FRG Would it be right to connect suffering at all with the judgment-seat of Christ?
JT No, I do not think so; that is all over. It is a question of receiving the things done in the body.
JSP Can we anticipate the judgment-seat of Christ now and have our matters settled?
JT Well, to a point. What has been read from 1 Corinthians 11 is a point to notice, because we are warned there as to not discerning the body, that we do not know how to discern things at the Lord’s supper. It is a real challenge to us as to having to do with the Lord in view of His judgment-seat in the future.
LPM Is all this in view of his ministry later as to reconciliation, and the truth of new creation, that he is preparing the ground in them for it?
JT We are coming to the end. We spoke of the end of chapter 4, and of chapter 3, and now we are about to come to the end of chapter 5, and of course, it is a gracious part. In verses 13 - 17 the apostle says,
“[p. 210] For whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God; or are sober, it is for you. For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died; and he died for all, that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised. So that we henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new”. So that when we come to the end of this chapter, we come to new creation, old things passed away and all things become new. We have a grand subject to finish up with in the ending of chapter 5.
ET Is the “we” in verse 16 apostolic or general to all the saints? It is emphatic.
JT It is the “we” of intelligence or conscience, I would think, in Paul, but very often meaning what is general. So that when the apostle says, “We henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away”, he is describing a spiritual man, and spirituality in the saints. It may fit anyone who is spiritual.
ET I was inquiring that we might get benefit from the reading, and if we are not able to put ourselves alongside him, we might be helped of the Lord to do so.
JT That is so. There is such a thing as ‘we’ of generality, that Paul includes himself with those who are spiritual.
AM Would that refer for instance to verse 14, “For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died”. Would he include others with himself as [p. 211] having come to a definite judgment under the leverage of the love of Christ?
JT That is the same thought exactly.
PB Would you say something about verse 13? “Whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God”. Can we align ourselves with the apostle in that?
JT I think that would be very special, because it is a question of being beside yourself, outside of your ordinary reckonings, as it were, like Peter being in an ecstasy. That is the idea of it, therefore he would not include everybody there; it is very special. He speaks of himself in that way. “Whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God; or are sober, it is for you”. He contrasts what he was in God’s presence and in the presence of the Corinthians. I was very special; I do not know that we know very much about it now.
AED Is that more fully developed in reference to the man in Christ later? Is he beside himself there (2 Corinthians 12:3)?
JT That is more special than any. There never was anybody like that, so far as I know. He is the only one spoken of in that sense. What he speaks of in the chapter we have before us is probably experienced by others, but in chapter 12 he says, “Whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows (2 Corinthians 12:3)”. That is, nobody knew the state Paul was in at that time except God. Even the apostle himself did not know the state he was in. The things we are speaking of now are extraordinary things, and we do well to think of them, and look into them, and seek the Lord’s mind as to them, because it is for us to be in them.
CEJ Is the note to “God” in verse 13 profitable in regard to the scripture before us? It says, ‘Or for God;’ that is, ... for God’s glory. But the sense is, I think, ‘If he lost the blessed calculations of love which was his path towards men, it was to be [p. 212] out of himself with God, and for God;’ a blessed alternative. His ecstasy was not excitement or folly, but if out of himself it was with God; if sober, it was the calculation of love for their good.
JT It is a question of what you are before the brethren, and then what you are before God, and whether you have known ecstasy; I would say hardly anybody knows about ecstasy now. We might as well accept that we do not, but they did in the early days. Peter did, and Paul refers to it here, and no doubt he was often beside himself for God.
RGW Would the emblems on the table remind us that we know Christ after the flesh no longer, but in His present condition? The thought before us is not of Him when He was here; we shall never know Him in those conditions, but we are to know Him as He is now.
JT Quite so; we are entitled to think of Him as He is now, and it is a question of spiritual power to lay hold of it. As we look at the emblems of the Lord’s death, that is, His body and His blood, are we able to think of what He is and where He is now in heaven? The emblems in themselves would hardly suggest where He is now.
RGW They would remind us that the condition in which He was was terminated.
JT Well, the emblems are of a dead Christ literally. I mean the blood is separated from the body. I would like the brethren to say what they think about that.
RGW I thought the viewing of the emblems would remind us on each occasion of this fact that the life of Jesus as He was here in flesh is forever past.
JT Quite.
LPM Would the actual allusion in chapter 5 refer to some who had known Him after the flesh? It says, “If even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer”. [p. 213] Is that because they had known Him in that condition?
JT The truth is that we cannot know Him in that condition; He is not in it and never will be again.
LPM But at the time the apostle wrote, certain were aware of the past, and is the apostle transferring such to this new position?
JT Quite so. He will never be in that condition again. He is leading up here to new creation, a new state of things we can come to, but it will only be literally as we are changed as He is.
PRP Is the apostle here seeking to show us that to have part in Christianity vitally we have to come to the end of the first order of man?
JT Well, he is meaning that, but he is meaning more than that, because the word is, “For whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God; or are sober, it is for you. For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died”. That is, we are all proved to have been dead in a moral sense by the fact that Christ has died. And then it goes on, “And he died for all, that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised”. That is the point. “So that we henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known” (note it is ‘if even we have known’; the word is objective knowledge — known objectively) “Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer”. The truth is we cannot know Him thus any longer, because He is not in that condition. “So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”. This is the great deduction, there is new creation. “The old things have passed away; behold all things have become new: and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and given to us the ministry of that reconciliation: how that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself,
[p. 214] not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation”. What is clearly in mind there is that it is possible to know something about Christ as He is now; but what He was, as to His actual state, He never will be again. It is what He is now, as John says, “we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is 1 John 3:2”. And if anybody knew Christ after the flesh, that did not mean that it was applicable then, because He was not in flesh any more.
PAH It also says, “So that we henceforth know no one according to flesh”. That would be in contrast too. “So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”.
JT Therefore all he says about others is that there is no possibility now of their knowing Christ according to flesh; even if they had thus known Him, there is no possibility of knowing Him thus now, and therefore the conclusion reached is, “If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”. It is not ‘he is a new creature’, but “there is a new creation”. There is such a thing as that, and that is the whole point, and we can have part in that.
JAA Is that a present thing for us now?
JT Well, it is. It is a question of spiritual power and discernment to be able to lay hold of the thought that you can be with Christ as He is now.
JAA Does the earnest of the Spirit in the end of verse 5 give us that?
JT “Now he that has wrought us for this very thing is God, who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit”. That is the power by which we enter these matters.
LPM “Behold all things have become new”. So that there is a new system of things existing called new creation.
JT Just so. I believe it is the great thing the apostle had in his mind at this point, so we have [p. 215] come to a full stop in this subject of new creation, where all things have become new. A wonderful thing too, that persons like ourselves can know something about it.
WB I would like to ask if all things having become new could be connected with Revelation 21:5, “Behold, I make all things new”.
JT Very good. Revelation 21 has all that in mind, because the assembly comes down from God out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. The whole thing is new.
WB He that overcomes shall inherit these things. That is what the apostle is seeking to bring before the saints.
LPM This is a very strong expression is it not? “Behold all things have become new: and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ”.
JT I would say that is the full stop for us now at this season. We might well linger on it, and take it home with us, and see what part we have in it.
AED Does it involve the whole system of things, and the work of God in us in that character now?
JT It does. That is all in mind, because what we can enter into now is a question of spiritual power. The Holy Spirit is given to us as here in verse 5, “He that has wrought us for this very thing is God, who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit”. The earnest of the Spirit is the power for all these things.
AM That is from another point of view. Is the ministry also now the ministry of reconciliation given to Paul, and then later the word of that reconciliation?
JT Showing the many things he had given to him, even the ministry of reconciliation and the ministry of the assembly, as if the Lord [p. 216] were making a speciality of Paul and putting everything into his hands.
JSP Does that involve everything being new? The preaching of the gospel is in relation to everything that is new. We have a new heaven and a new earth all coming in in that way.
JT Well, that has not come yet. What is preached now is what Christ is now, and what we are now; so that we are the vessels of the ministry for the moment, at least some of us, and it is a question of what is going on now, and the conditions in which we are. Chapter 4 helps us in that.
FRG Does reconciliation come in here, because the personality is going through into this new condition?
JT You mean our persons. Quite so, we are going through. We are not there yet, but we are looking for it.