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DIVINE ACTIVITIES IN SUPPORT OF THE TESTIMONY (1)

JT I have in mind the peculiar situation, which exists in these countries. The power of human associations to set aside what is of God, and whether the brethren are aware of it, and how it is to be met, and the means God has given to us, which is of course the Spirit, but the Spirit in a special way, that is what we have come to in the book of Hebrews: “Ye have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem”. I thought a little of the instrumentality of the Spirit in that sense, and what we have come to, amongst other things an innumerable company of angels, and whether we apprehend this in the book of Hebrews, and whether we are bringing these things in in prayer. The expression “Ye have come to”, is not necessarily what we have personally and individually appropriated, but to what we have come. That is to say, it is available. It is a question of our nearness, and, of course, that would depend on our state. The expression “The Lord is near” (Philippians 4:5) is to indicate that He is not far away, but ready to join in where He is needed. So that it is a question of what brethren discern is needed.

RP There is a system of things operating in Hebrews administratively under the Lord’s hand.

JT That is right, a system of things, Christ being the Head of it. Hence we have to learn to speak systematically, and to understand systematically, using our senses. So that Luke said he wrote ^[p. 2] with method. Every person, who believes is brought into the system, as at Pentecost three thousand were brought into it, and so as Peter finished, those who were affected spoke to Peter and the others; that is to say, they recognised the system. Peter was not everything; the Lord, of course, was everything, but yet in another sense He was not, because it was a system and included all that were added, because it says “the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved (Acts 2:47)”. The system was there and was added to.

PAH We are brought into this living system then, as added persons.

JT The system did not begin until Christ ascended into heaven, and the Spirit came down. Certain things had to happen, and they happened in order; first Christ had to be installed in heaven, where He is, and then He received from the Father the promise of the Spirit, and shed It forth. So the Spirit was there to be heard; “which ye now see and hear (Acts 2:33)”. Then those who were affected said to Peter and the other apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do? (Acts 2:37)” and Peter answered them, and we are told that they who accepted his word persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles; not of Moses or the prophets, but of the apostles. The Lord had fitted these men to speak, and they spoke, and so the system began and functioned, and it functions still, although centuries have elapsed. It is the same system, and it functions still, and so the question now is, how are we applying what is available to us in it to meet current conditions?

ENJ Are you thinking that the Holy Spirit has the chief place in this system which you have mentioned, and then that the angels have a place in it and are available to us?

JT That is what I was thinking. We have come to the system, including the angels. Persons come ^[p. 3] into it, like the woman of Samaria. She came out to draw water; she was identified with her vessel, but she left it. She left her vessel and went away into the city and came to the men, and said, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?” John 4:29. She then, in that practical way, became an item in the system.

CGMcC In this system have we everything that we need to maintain us in the pathway?

JT That is it. Everything that is needed, not any extraneous things there, all needed things. There is much more that God has that is needed, but that is not for our system. He will have another system, and have suitable persons to work in it, but now He is working in the assembly.

RP Does the administration of angels stand in relation to physical conditions through which the saints are passing?

JT Yes, it would. We can easily show that from various examples throughout the book of Acts, and the epistles, as well as throughout the Old Testament. In the Old Testament we have an early instance of angelic ministry in the visit to Abraham. Two of the visitors were angels, the other was Jehovah. It soon became evident that they were detached for the moment from Jehovah in order to attend to Lot in Sodom. God said, “Shall I hide from Abraham, that thing which I do (Genesis 18:17)”. The thing was not hidden from Abraham; he came into it and interceded for Lot. Then, of course, there are other things that could be said about them, how angels acted for the saints, and how they are still acting for the saints, as in Acts 12. Peter was in prison and he was aided to clothe himself, and one thing after another happened until he came to the iron gate, and it opened of itself; and so he came to the saints, but the saints were not ready for him; although they had been praying, they were not ready ^[p. 4] for him. There was one who listened, who knew his voice; that was Rhoda. Hence the movement began and Herod was smitten; it was angelic action against physical conditions. Now we have an opposing system of men and women, but particularly of men, and they are ready to apply physical conditions, even violence if necessary, and that is what we have to contend with.

ENJ You would attribute the opening of the iron gate to angelic power, and that would be suggestive of what angelic power might do in relation to the Roman Empire at the end?

JT The immediate instrumentality of that is in the prayers of the saints. They prayed in Jerusalem urgently for Peter, but then they did not have faith in their prayers. They did not believe it was Peter, but it was really Peter, and Rhoda said that. She insisted it was Peter, and that is the thing; that we are assured of what we are doing, and what is acting for us. So Peter himself says, “Now I know certainly that the Lord has sent forth his angel and has taken me out of the hand of Herod (Acts 12:11)”. So Peter came to himself. He came down one street, showing how God comes down to our natural physical circumstances, and, if necessary, to act against them if they are adverse. Not indeed that we join the army; we do not need to do that. We are obligated by God to refuse to take men’s lives, but we may thank God that the governments today are allowing us to serve in other ways than to take men’s lives, and it may be that God would help us too as to these unions, that they may have to recognise human rights, and prayer may lead them to come to that.

ENJ There seemed to be a combination of power against the apostle and those with him on the boat in Acts 27:23,24, and Paul says, “For an angel of the God, whose I am and whom I serve, stood by me this night, saying, Fear not, Paul”.

JT That is very good, and in accord with what we are saying, that God will come in for us. Many of us older ones know that God has come in for us, for the Lord’s people, through two terrible wars, and has caused them to stop; and He can do more than that. It is a question of our having confidence in God, and that is the point in these chapters read, that we have come to mount Zion. It is the verse that refers to power. The mountain is power, but it is mount Zion; it is not mount Sinai. It is grace reigning through righteousness, so that we are on those lines, and hence we have the prayer meeting on Monday night, and God recognises the places where prayer is wont to be made, and answers the prayers.

PAH So we need to recognise that myriads of angels are in this system to which we have come; perhaps we have not thought sufficiently about the service that God would render through them.

JT The word ‘myriads’ is used, showing there are a great number; we might say uncountable as far as we are concerned. The Lord says, “more than twelve legions” of them; He could ask for them.

JM Would it be a parallel in 2 Kings 6:17, when Elisha prayed that his servant’s eyes might be opened that he might see?

JT So Psalm 68:17 says, “The chariots of God are twenty thousand, thousands upon thousands; the Lord is among them”. The prophet asked that the young man’s eyes might be opened to see this, and perhaps that is the point now, that our eyes might be opened to see what is in our favour.

PRP Why do you think this power has not been manifested more than it has?

JT I would say because it has not been asked for. It is not that God is dependent on what we ask, but it does say He is able to do more than we ask or think. All power is subordinated to the present position, of Christ: “Sit at my right hand until I put thine enemies as footstool of thy feet”, (Hebrews 1:13). So in chapter 2, verse 5, we are told that, “He has not subjected to angels the habitable world which is to come, of which we speak”;(Hebrews 2:5) that is, He has not placed that under angels. The millennium will not be placed under angels any more than our dispensation is formally. Our dispensation is placed under Christ; everything is put under Him; principalities and powers are put under Him.

JSP It was not until God heard the groaning of the children of Israel that He came down to deliver them.

JT God said that He heard their groaning, showing that it is well worth groaning if we need something.

PRP Is there to be a moral accordance with us along with this asking?

JT Just so. The Lord may do things for us With which we are not in moral accord, because we are His people. He thinks of us in that light, and we are told much of asking, even as to the Spirit of God: “How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” (Luke 11:13). That shows how much God is ready to give us on the ground of asking.

CEJ Would Daniel 6:10 suggest the same thought? When he knew that the writing was signed, “he kneeled on his knees three times a day, and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime (Daniel 6:10)”. Later he was able to say to the king, “My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions’ mouths (Daniel 6:22)”.

JT Very excellent example. The book of Daniel affords much in that sense for us.

PRP Do you link up the matter of faith with this?

JT Exactly. Without faith it is impossible ^[p. 7] to please God. So we do well to link it up with it. Even if we are to have forgiveness of our sins, we have to have faith to get it.

RP James makes much of individual faith, saying, “The fervent supplication of the righteous man has much power”, James 5:16.

JT Showing what righteous men do, and so it is that Abraham was heard, because he was righteous: “Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; ... for I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him”, (Genesis 18:17 - 19). God bases things on what Abraham would do.

PAH Would angels be active today, do you think? The angel said to Philip, “Rise up and go southward”, (Acts 8:26). Do you think angels would be serving in that regard today?

JT Yes, only the dispensation requires that we ask for things which are named. We ask for angels, but then there are only two that are named; although there may be many, because God names all the angels as He names all the stars. He is not making much of them; though He might make much more than He makes in the scriptures we have, and there may be much more made of them in a further dispensation, but it is for us to go by the words written; as the Lord says, “It is written”. When He was attacked by the devil, in every case He says, “It is written”. We go by the words written.

ENJ In relation to things that are done, and the power that is required, in relation to the assembly and its functions here, should we speak to the Lord, or the Father, in relation to the presence of the Spirit? I was thinking, too, in relation to angels, is it not more in connection with the nations and the powers that be?

JT I think it is what we might call governmental things, things which stand in relation to God’s ^[p. 8] government on the earth; He might use unconverted men. We would not like to ask Him to use an unconverted man, and yet God is using such men.

RP Would that not mean salvation in a practical sense? “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”

JT That is what it says here in the verse read. We cannot say how many there are, but we can say there is an innumerable company, but it would hardly be intelligent for us to ask Him to send Michael. We have to go by what is written. Although we do know that Michael contended with the devil about the body of Moses, and we do know that Michael will make war with the devil and his angels. But he is only one. Therefore the intelligent way would be to ask God to send the necessary power on our behalf.

JMcN We see how the Lord could say that the Father could furnish Him with more than twelve legions of angels; but He pointed out the necessity of the Scriptures being fulfilled.

JT Very good. We are not told the Lord asked for them, either.

GWA Is there to be agreement with us in relation to this matter? Matthew 18 suggests we are agreed in relation to our requests, if there is to be power.

JT That is a very good point, and it is to draw us together, that we are all one, one body, one Spirit, one according to Ephesians 4:3 - 6 “Using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all”. So that we can easily name what we want, what we will ask for. And so it says,

“It shall be done for them”, Matthew 18:19. Not simply done, but done for them. That is to say God is taking account of the ones who are asking.

JJJ Would fasting come into this? You referred to the book of Esther in relation to fasting.

JT Well, some of us were speaking about that today, how Mordecai urged Esther to come into the matter, although she had already become queen, because the Jews were appointed to death because of Haman’s influence with the king. She took her life into her hands and went and asked the king, but she did not ask the Jews to pray, but asked them to fast. God was working for them, although hiding His face from them.

JM Are our faces to be set in the direction of our prayers? In Daniel, in relation to the three Hebrew children, it says they were not prepared to bow. Their face was set in that direction.

JT Then they had Another with them, there was a fourth. It is a great addition, because it shows that the Son of God intervenes to help us in what engages us. We ask everything in His name.

PAH On their side they were prepared to yield their bodies. It reads, “And yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God!”(Daniel 3:28) That is their part; they were prepared to suffer.

JT That is what Esther did. She did what she should not have done according to the law, and she found favour in the king’s sight. Well, we can count on that. The ground she acted on was fasting, denying herself something, and exposing herself to the greatest danger, the loss of her life. So we have to die for the truth. “Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake”, (Philippians 1:29).

PAH Esther says, as she took her life in her hands, “If I perish, I perish (Esther 4:16)”.

JT Just so. It was a noble commitment, a noble sacrifice, and God honoured it. It is the most remarkable illustration we get, not of prayer, but of fasting. We get a great deal of it in the Old Testament, but we get it from the Lord’s own words: “This kind does not go out but by prayer and fasting”, (Matthew 17:21). So if we have to face a difficult matter, we have to fast for it.

ENJ Would you open up a little what you have in mind as to fasting in a spiritual way?

JT Well, of course, it would not be denying ourselves of going to a theatre. That would not be much. It is more the things that are legitimate that are in mind in fasting, things that are legitimate in themselves. God honours our denying ourselves of them.

CEJ Is your thought that fasting makes room for the Holy Spirit?

JT I think it does. It displaces the natural, which has no part in the thing. Fasting is a displacement, and the Spirit of God takes up the room made. It is a real sacrifice for the sake of getting certain power.

PRP Were you going to say more about mount Zion, suggesting grace to us?

JT Well, we have spoken of that already. We might look at the other things that are mentioned in the twelfth chapter. Mount Zion is the first, then the city of the living God, which goes with it. It is a question of life, the city of the living God, and we know it is called here heavenly Jerusalem. And then the third thing, myriads of angels, which is what we are speaking about, beings that can be used in a physical way if necessary; they are the universal gathering; that expression refers to how the States of Greece assembled together on certain occasions. And then further, the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven is undoubtedly the assembly ^[p. 11] that we often speak about; it is ourselves. It is not at a distance from us; we are the persons who form it. We have come to that.

ENJ The assembly of the firstborn ones; if we could lay hold of that would it help us to see how unsuitable it is to be connected with any other associations?

JT Quite so. The firstborn ones; each of them is a firstborn. It is difficult to grasp the idea of each one being a firstborn, but God has that in His mind. We are all on the same footing; we belong to the assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven.

ENJ That would be not only what is in view, all firstborn ones, but we are made firstborn ones constitutionally.

JT Exactly, showing how dignified the assembly is. There is nothing else on earth or in heaven to be compared with the assembly. It is a question of persons called firstborn ones.

CGMcC What are we to understand by coming to these things? Is it that we have come into the light and truth of them?

JT Well, the Spirit too; we have the Holy Spirit, and He operates in us according to that light, so that we learn to pray and ask for things intelligently. There is nothing like it in heaven or on earth. It is the first family. All the families are named of the Father, but the assembly is the first of the families. That is what is alluded to here, the firstborn ones. Then it says “to God, judge of all”. What can we have greater than that, because it goes right on to the lake of fire? It is a question of the Judge of all. God has rights in all these things and as to persons.

JAA So that as having come to this system we would have our judgment in accordance with God’s mind concerning what is around us.

JT That is the ground we take in our prayer ^[p. 12] meetings. So that God is the Judge of all. That is the very top. You cannot get higher than that. As to persons, God is the Judge of all, and He has everything in His hands. And then as to spirits of just men, the angels are spirits, but they are not spirits in the sense in which we have spirits. We are not yet wholly spiritual. The Lord is Himself always a Spirit. He is God, but then He has a spirit too, because He is a Man, spirit, soul and body. We are speaking reverently, but we apprehend that He has a spirit, too. He committed His spirit to God. We have come to the spirits of just men made perfect. We have the light that we shall all be raised from the dead, and Matthew would sustain us in that, because he says “many bodies of the saints fallen asleep arose, and ... entered into the holy city and appeared unto many (Matthew 27:52,53)”. The idea of the resurrection of just men is seen here. We cannot say just where they are, but we know they are somewhere; we can leave that with God, but we know they rose after Christ arose. We have come to that sort of thing, just men made perfect.

CEJ Would you say a word as to how we are to be affected as coming to the spirits of just men made perfect?

JT I think it is a question of light. We are to take in the light, and believe in it, “While ye have the light, believe in the light, that ye may become sons of light”, (John 12:36). It is a question of believing.

RP Would that be a manifestation of the work of God? You can take account of the spirit of a man like Moses or David. That is the work of God.

JT They were just men. Abraham was, although God told him in Genesis 15 that he would die, still he had a vision and everything was made real to him. It says a great darkness fell upon him, but he saw certain things which would form him and make ^[p. 13] everything real to him; so that we can discern Abraham. The Lord Jesus says of him, “Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad”, (John 8:56). How real it was in that way! The Lord could say “he saw it, and was glad”.

PAH We are connected with a living system of things; God is God of the living, not of the dead. In that system we have come to the spirits of just men made perfect.

JT Just so. When the Lord said to the disciples, “Who do ye say that I am?” and one of them says, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”, (Matthew 16:15,16) that was a revelation given to Peter, but we come into it; and it really is the basis of the assembly, for it is built on Christ as the Son of the living God. It is a living system.

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