THE CHURCH AS THE WITNESS
THE CHURCH AS THE WITNESS
FER Do you not think it is a general principle in the ways of God before He displays anything in result in glory, He gives the witness of it beforehand?
FWJ Yes.
FER Nothing comes out in display till God gives His witness in the first instance.
AM Would you give an example or two of it?
FER You do not want an example of every principle. A principle speaks for itself. The kingdom is our example. Eternal life is not set forth in display till there has been the witness of it.
JB There has been a display of nothing yet.
FER But there has been witness of many things.
FWJ Is not that principle true of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself?
FER Yes. He came as a witness before He comes in glory.
FWJ The witness of the church is especially connected with the absence of Christ?
FER Yes, I think so. Christ is absent and hid. The Holy Spirit is the witness. Christ speaks of Himself in Revelation 3: 14 as the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
FWJ Is the church the continuation of the witness following on the Lord Jesus Christ Himself?
FER Yes, the church is the witness of Christ. That is what this prayer is. There is witness of Christ here in the church.
FWJ And that especially to His exaltation?
FER It is more moral. Christ dwelling in the heart by faith.... “that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God” (verse 19). The point of it all is that there might be sufficient witness for God [p. 33] here before He comes out in display.
RE Why is it that there should be divine testimony first?
FER It is difficult to say. There is divine wisdom in it. God is to work out His purposes in a world of evil. It could not be otherwise. I do not see how the purposes of God could be worked out down here in any other way.
THR It forms us according to it.
FWJ Is the witness a kind of education that we may be formed by it?
FER Yes, I think so; we are formed by it.
Ques That we might have it in faith before we have the display?
FER We are fitted to have part in the display.
JB Otherwise God would be left without a witness.
FER If God left Himself without a witness it would mean the world was given over.
Ques Is there any display now?
FER No. It is a time of witness now, while Christ is hid within the veil it is not a time of display.
Ques I was wondering if the three kinds of power in the end of the epistle meant display.
FER That power is not power of display but moral power. It is that we can stand here morally against the evil. Probably you might have to be a martyr. “Unto all endurance” (Colossians 1: 11). That is where the power comes out.
StC What you spoke of is entirely connected with the Holy Spirit — entirely dependent on the Spirit.
FER Yes. That we might be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man. You get the idea of witness running through all time. I suppose there was never a moment when there was no witness. Scripture is not the witness but records what the witness is.
Ques The whole of Hebrews 11 were the “great cloud of witnesses”?
ASL The witnesses were persons then?
FER Yes. Enoch or Noah, then the patriarchs, then Israel. That is the burden of the latter part of Isaiah. Then Christ came and now the church is the witness.
ASL So that there was a witness for God before the record of Scripture was written down?
THR God must close up things if there were not a witness.
FER When the witness of God ceases to command respect there is nothing left but for God to come in in judgment.
Ques Does Laodicea give us an instance of that?
FER When men set up to have need of nothing, that is, express entire competency — witness is no longer possible. That is the state of things pretty much as we have got them now. The witness of God is subject to criticism. The testimony does not command respect.
ASL Then testimony and witness are the same thing. What would you say then is the witness?
FER The Holy Spirit. His presence is the witness, but the Holy Spirit is not the witness apart from the vessel.
JB How is the Holy Spirit the witness?
FER The witness of the Holy Spirit is that there is a Man in heaven who stands as Head to every man on earth.
ASL “That the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts” — that is collectively, not that He dwells individually?
FER I think it is “the Christ may dwell”, etc.
THR It is “the Christ”. Christ is Head of everything.
ASL Not the idea of Christ personally?
FER “Apprehend with all the saints”.
FWJ I do not think everybody understood your remarks, Mr. Reynolds.
THR Everything God manifests in Himself [p. 35] comes out in Christ. Set forth in Him — in Christ now exalted.
FER We get in Christ the full and perfect expression of the mind of God in regard to man expressed in Christ personally.
ASL That Christ is the Head of every man. Then the Spirit is here to bear witness of another Man?
FER Yes. In relation to every man on earth. The witness is contained in the assembly, but the assembly is the worshipping company.
ASL And the assembly is a witness?
FER Yes, but that brings in the idea of the worshipping company. The church may serve two ends. God can have His part and it may be the witness.
JB “... Filled even to all the fulness of God” — is that the witness?
FER I think the vessel suited for the full setting forth of God’s mind constituted it.
JB What is the difference between Ephesians and the epistle of John — ... “God abides in you”, 1 John 2: 14?
FER That is moral. His love perfected in us. This is more the setting forth of His mind — what He is to be.
JB Man-ward? What does length, breadth, depth and height mean?
FER It shows you the whole expanse of the ‘country’ and what is going to fill it. The love of Christ will fill it.
FWJ Do you think the church ever rose to that?
FER I do not know enough of church history to answer that. I think not.
FWJ I was wondering if it did at Pentecost?
FER Perhaps so, in a way.
AM What do you mean by the ‘country’?
FER The whole expanse in which God will be displayed in the universe of bliss.
THR The whole of the universe of bliss will be characterised by “the Christ”.
FER He will fill all things.
ASL “That the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts” — not the Spirit?
FER It indicates it is God’s pleasure. It is God’s pleasure that Christ should dwell in our hearts by faith. The way of it is — strengthened with might by the Spirit in the inner man, resulting in Christ dwelling in the heart by faith.
EBG Faith is before the time of display?
RE The Spirit’s work here is not apart from faith?
FER Nothing is in actuality in the present. It is all moral and must be to faith. The Spirit could not be apart from faith. We must get the light of things first and then the Spirit works on that. The first thing is that God enlightens a man and the Spirit works through the light.
JB Could Christ dwell in the heart in any other way?
THR It is not Christ as we get Him in Colossians.
FER No.
THR Ephesians brings in God’s counsels in Christ. Christ the centre of God’s counsels dwelling in the hearts by faith. It is not the testimony in a golden box but in our hearts by faith.
Ques Does it not give character?
FER I think it gives intelligence, not character. It must be looked at in the abstract.
ASL Then the next step is “rooted and founded in love” — capacity.
FER You do not get intelligence in divine things except by love. It is one of the most important points that could be imagined. The great thing that expands man is love. With God intelligence is absolute, love is infinite. Just as a man enters into divine nature and answers to it, that man gets expanded. I do not think a man will get expanded by the study of Scripture but if he gets acquaintance with [p. 37] God he gets expanded.
THR Mere study would make a man cramped.
AM Is the idea of expansion “filled even to all the fulness of God”?
FER Yes, that gives the idea.
AB Is it not that everything must be cleared out to make room for it?
FER Affection is very expanding.
THR We must take in all saints.
AB What do you mean by taking in all saints?
THR All the glory of God in the church comes out in all the saints. You must at once take in your mind all the saints. It is the riches of God’s glory, but all that comes out in the church. Abraham saw the wealth of glory in the sky. The church is the vessel in which everything of Christ is to beset forth.
FER I have come across men of very great natural intelligence but if you get a christian who is formed in the divine nature he can enter into things a great deal better than such men.
ASL There might be the capacity to take in but not to give out.
FER A man ought to take in more than he can express. He cannot express up to what he has taken in. Just as in common things a man’s intelligence must go with his growth.
Ques In the thought of witness do we take it that at the present time the church is an adequate witness?
FER There is no other witness. Everything is in the church which is necessary for witness.
JB It depends on the present state of the saints I suppose?
FER I think the witness is greatly obscured. Everything lies in the Holy Spirit who is still here. The house of God is still here in its greatness and completion but greatly obscured.
RE The apostle preached the “unsearchable riches of Christ” — is that the witness?
FER The preaching of it produced the witness.
[p. 38] We are apt to get the idea that everything is gone and we must do the best we can.
THR Everything cannot be gone while Christ is at the right hand of God and the Holy Spirit is here.
ASL Nothing is gone.
AM Does it not tend to weaken us to say that everything has gone?
FER Yes, it does.
ASL Mr. Stoney once said to a man, who said everything had gone, that nothing was gone but he (the man). The ‘man’ is gone.
Rem There is not the power of the Spirit now as there was.
FER There is no decline in the Spirit — only the witness has become obscured.
ASL Would you say what the individual exercise and responsibility is in regard to the witness?
FER The first thing is to get clear of everything that is not of the Spirit. Break away from everything you are bound by. Human organisation and order is not of the Spirit of God.
ASL And you become in a way a witness in yourself?
FER Yes, in a way.
THR There is the need to see the meek character of the church.
Ques Then we have to break away from everything?
FER That is what the Spirit has been leading to. You want a sense that Christ is enough for you. You want to have a sense that even if you have to stand alone Christ is enough for you.
ASL Then you would seek the company.
FER You will find yourself there.
Ques Did not the apostle stand alone?
FER Yes, but the Lord stood by him.
AM It practically comes to the individual in these days.
FER People come into the order of fellowship [p. 39] really without individual exercise and faith and if the form were to break down they would all be adrift.
Ques Do you not think there is a great lack of men in this day?
FER Yes. How far we are really men?
Ques If we are not men we might wish to be.
FER We are more like children — carried about by every wind — not much stability. We listen to this person and that — there is very little of ‘men’ about us. It is trouble that really tests people — how much stability they have.
FK What is the witness of God on high?
FER God has given to us eternal life and that life is in His Son.
FK The Spirit bears witness to that in the church.
FER It is a tremendous thing to say we have “the Son”. The saints at the beginning could say so and if they were asked to prove it they could say ‘The Son comes out in us’. The witness down here was really the life of God. “He that has the Son has life”, 1 John 5: 12.
JB What is that — love?
FER “By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves”, John 13: 35.
FK It says that there are three that bear witness — the Spirit, the water and the blood. What about the two latter?
FER They bear witness that we are apart from the world; apart from all that is contrary to God in the world. Your conscience is perfected. The Spirit brings in all that is positive. The Spirit is the Spirit of the glorified Man — the Spirit of God’s Son.
FK The water and the blood then clear us from all that we were.
FER Christ came in through water and blood and the Spirit is the witness of the heavenly Man.
Ques Then you would say that the Spirit is the [p. 40] witness to the church and the church is the witness to the world?
FER Yes. The saints are the vessels of witness to the world. You get the thought in John 17 “that they also may be one in us, that the world may believe that thou hast sent me” (verse 21).
JB “He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself”, 1 John 5: 10.
FER That is more — it is the Spirit.
ASL There is a difference between believing and having, is there not?
FER ‘Having’ the Son is a most wonderful thing. I should hesitate to say I have the Son. It goes beyond believing in Him.
RE Is the truth of christianity set forth in the Son? What is eternal life?
FER It is the enjoyment of life in the Son which holds in abeyance and renders powerless the power of death and evil. You come into the influence of life. They saw it in the presence of Christ. In the energy of life the power of evil is impotent. He has “the keys of death and of hades”, Revelation 1: 18. The powers of evil will be held impotent in the power of His life. He is not simply a man.
THR That means that He might be the source of life to us.
FER You will have to be in accord with this mighty energy in Christ.
Ques Is that implied in the expression “Son of the living God”?
FER Yes. “On this rock I will build my assembly”, Matthew 16: 18. He says “I became dead, and behold I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades”, Revelation 1: 18.
THR It is a wonderful thing if we see that the church is not of the course of things here, but it will take its place in it — come down out of heaven. Morally it has come down from God out of heaven now. He has [p. 41] created for Himself one new man.
Ques Is not the church here as much as ever it was?
FER The real point is that the Spirit is here and in the vessel. The vessel may be hid but it is here.
THR The church has descended to be the chaplain of the world — like Micah who had a levite to be his priest in his house of gods. The world has a house of gods and wants the church to be its chaplain.
ASL Is the Spirit in the vessel in virtue of being in the individuals who form the vessel?
FER Every believer has part in the Spirit but if you take the Spirit in the sense of dwelling, He dwells in the whole church.
ASL Then there are two ideas?
FER There are two reasons. The Spirit dwells in the house. He dwells in every one that composes the house and He is said to dwell in the house that Christ builds. What Christ was occupied with while down here was building the house of God. The foundations were laid in redemption and the Holy Spirit came to dwell in it. No one but Christ ever had a hand in building the house of God. Moses was in a way the type but Christ was the real Builder, Christ the true Son of David. The Holy Spirit came down to dwell in the house that Christ built.
ASL Then you put it rather the other way to what I did?
FER The Holy Spirit dwells in the church but it has been greatly obscured by the professing system.
Ques Are we fellow-citizens of the household of God?
FER We come into the goodness of the house. Psalm 132, all the concern is the ‘building of the house’.
ASL Then you say the house was prepared for the Spirit?
FER The house was ready before [p. 42] the Spirit dwelt in it.
THR In resurrection life He breathes life.
ASL I only thought He must be in glory before He built?
FER All the time He was here He was attaching people to Himself. He gathers them and when He goes up on high He sends the Holy Spirit to dwell in the house. In John 20 all the material was there. The point in the house is that there is a witness here on earth to a Man in heaven.
ASL What about 1 Corinthians 3?
FER There is no question of the house there. It is man’s building affecting people but that is never spoken of as God’s house. Keep to the idea that is carried through Scripture. God would have a house, but would not allow David to build it — it was to be his Son — Solomon built it and God repudiated it. Then the true Son of David built the house and God came to dwell in it.
RB What is the idea of judgment beginning at the house of God?
FER Discipline has to begin.
Ques. It is present?
FER Yes.
JB Was it not necessary from the beginning?
FER Not in the first energy.
Ques Did it not begin with Ananias and Sapphira?
FER It is difficult to say anything about them or when it began. The house may be enlarged but the house is there. My house was there when I had, say, three children but it may be enlarged to ten children.
Ques The house was there when you dwelt in it?
FER I do not think it was a house till I had children. Perhaps I ought to explain myself. We must get out of the material idea. What do any bricks and mortar care for me! That is not my house. My house is composed of those who have affection for me.
FWJ ‘House’ gives the idea of ‘household’?
FER Yes, where the sufficiency and goodness of a [p. 43] man are known. The house of God is where the sufficiency and goodness of God become known.
Ques I was going to ask a question about Psalm 132: 16 “and her saints shall shout aloud for joy”.
FER They do not shout aloud much today. It is an immense thing when you get the divine thought made known.
AM It says in 1 Corinthians 3: 9 “Ye are ... God’s building”.
FER You must allow in the mind of the apostle he was writing to real christians — “Ye have been washed” (1 Corinthians 6: 11) he says. He takes them up as real genuine christians.
AM But had he not suspicion of them?
FER They were “called saints” (1 Corinthians 1: 2) and he does add “with all that in every place call ..”. but he has before his mind real genuine christians. He takes them up on the ground of the one body.
AM But does he not appeal to them to “come out from the midst of them ..”.? 2 Corinthians 6: 17.
FER That was an appeal to come out from idolatrous associations. He takes them up on the ground that they were really christians. He wants to bring them out in manifestation. If you take the general purpose of the epistles he has before him genuine christians — those who were the subjects of the work of the Holy Spirit.
RE Does the thought of failure come in in connection with the house?
FER No, I do not think so.
RE I was thinking of Luke 12; the ruler of the household who failed.
FER That was failure on the part of the steward. The servant may go wrong but the household is there and has to be regarded.
ASL What was the Lord’s thought in [p. 44] introducing baptism?
FER It was to mark definitely and distinctly the association of those who were baptised from the old, taking new ground.
THR Then the epistles are not written exactly to those in the house?
JB Then the epistles are written to the profession?
FER He takes people on their profession. Only two or three epistles take up the house of God. We have no allusion to it except in 1 Timothy, Hebrews and Peter. The epistles are written to the external body in any place known as christians.
ASL “Whose house are we, if indeed we hold fast ..”., Hebrews 3: 6. The proof would be in the continuing.
FER That is in a catholic epistle. I think we need not contend as to trifles. There is the thing spoken of as the household of God — the builder, the Son of David. The idea prevails in the Old Testament; He shall build Me a house and He shall establish the kingdom.
Ques Will you make it plain the difference between the house and household of God?
FER I cannot. There is no difference. Our being God’s household constitutes us God’s house. We form part of it. “Ye are a spiritual house”. We are brought into the house that we may know God’s goodness. You come under discipline and training. You come under the influence of all that God is. You learn all the goodness of God — no dearth — Psalm 132. There is no tone about you if you have not come under the discipline. You are pitched up and down and knocked about.
RB “For this cause”, etc. What is the “cause” on which he bases the prayer?
FER The cause is the special place given to him that he should preach the unsearchable riches of Christ and enlighten. The prayer is regarding saints universally.
AM [p. 45] What had the Lord made the foundation of?
FER Nothing but the foundation that is laid. In ordinary building the architect has the whole superstructure before him when the building is commenced.
ASL The idea is that of an architect.
AM He said they were God’s building.
FER That point was to press upon them that the work was really God’s. He was really in the hand of God, that he could say “ye are God’s husbandry”. The house was formed before that in knowledge and purpose. Paul laid a good foundation in Corinth.
JB It has been said it was the foundation of the house.
FER That is going too far.
THR The Corinthians were looking at the apostles as men. He throws them back on God and God’s work.
Ques Then the house was built?
FER Yes, it was built and it is enlarged, but not outside the pale of true believers. At the same time I do not ignore the system man has set up.
AM There could be no privilege connected with that?
FER I do not know that. They have the light of God. The house of God is the source of light and the system comes into the range and benefit of the light. The very philanthropy that exists in the world is owing to christianity.
AM But if all the system is outside, God is not the author?
Ques Inside all the profession there is the real thing.
FER The world has adopted christianity and has the benefit and responsibility. I ask people to take the testimony of Scripture. It speaks of it as a spiritual house, “pillar and base of the truth” (1 Timothy 3: 15). “Whose house are we, if indeed we hold fast ... firm to the end”, Hebrews 3: 6. It is surrounded by christendom like the court of the temple — given up to the [p. 46] gentiles — though close to the real thing.
Ques Profession would not hinder the house of God?
FK How could a man be a partaker of the Holy Spirit?
FER He has come under the influence of the Holy Spirit. The builder of God’s house is Christ — the Son of David. The Father gathers to the Son. The Son builds the house — and then the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the house.