THE SANCTUARY
THE SANCTUARY
ASL You made a remark this morning, Mr. R. that there was something in Ephesians 3 about the worshipping company.
FER I forget exactly what was the connection — it was a passing remark in connection with the ‘body’ I think.
THR You get the worshipping company in Ephesians 2: 18 — “For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”.
EBG I think it was said that ‘God might have His part’.
FER Yes.
ASL The sanctuary must be the place of worship?
FER It is inseparable from the house of God. If God is known and men are taught of God, the effect must necessarily be that they approach God. The sanctuary is consequent on the house. The two hang together.
ASL The sanctuary is no more material than the house. It might be said that the saints are the house but not the sanctuary.
FER The sanctuary presents the conditions of worship. You must find the sanctuary in the house and it is in the house that you do find the sanctuary.
THR The sanctuary is really the presence of God — the sense of His presence.
ASL The ‘holiest’ is the same thought as the sanctuary?
FER The sanctuary is taken up from the idea of the holiest. The holiest is the sanctuary to us.
FWJ Is Christ the Minister of the sanctuary as the Head of the body?
FER I think the two thoughts are very nearly akin.
[p. 48] He is the Head of the body — the firstborn among many brethren. In that light He is the Minister of the sanctuary. Aaron set forth what is now fulfilled in Christ. The general ordering of the sanctuary attaches to Christ as Minister of the sanctuary.
ASL As Son over God’s house?
FER Yes. I think Aaron had all the responsibility of all connected with the worship of God. In all that was connected with the sanctuary and priesthood, his sons were associated with him. They were to share in the responsibility of the sanctuary.
ASL Then the thought of the sanctuary for us is in association with the Son?
FER I would not quite say that. Aaron and his sons set forth association with the Son, but the sanctuary, as Mr. R. said, is the presence of God.
ASL How do we find ourselves in the sanctuary?
FER I think people find the sanctuary as they are prepared for it. As you are prepared for it you find it.
AM In what way are we prepared for it?
FER You are brought into the house and taught by the Spirit — instructed in the knowledge of God. You then begin to apprehend the sanctuary — that is the light in which God can be approached.
ASL I suppose there is no possibility of saints being in the sanctuary without Christ?
FER No. If He is the true Aaron He is the Minister of the sanctuary.
ASL If saints find themselves in it, in what relation to Christ are they looked at?
FER “Firstborn among many brethren”. Christ is apprehended as the true Aaron.
Ques In what way is He Minister of the sanctuary?
FER He is divinely charged with the care of the sanctuary — with approach to God.
ASL The French translation gives it as ‘official administration’.
FER The minister of the holy places.
[p. 49] Ques Is that the thought in Exodus 29 — “minister unto me”. It is God-ward?
FER Priestly service is God-ward. The levitical service was different — bearing the tabernacle.
Ques Is He the conductor into the sanctuary as the great High Priest?
FER I do not think ‘High Priest’ is used in that connection. High Priest is in regard of the service of Christ to His people down here. That title comes in the earlier part of the epistle.
Ques Can you tell us the difference between ministry God-ward and ministry man-ward?
FER Ministry man-ward may be any kind of service to the saints or even to those who are not saints. Ministry God-ward is service to God — waiting on God.
FK Is not the word ‘serve’ in Hebrews used in a peculiar sense — serve in a religious way — to worship?
FER Exactly. There was divine service in connection with the tabernacle.
AM Would “serve the living God” in Hebrews 9: 14 be worship to God?
FER Yes. It is in contrast to the priests going into the first tabernacle to serve the living God.
FK In the New Testament ‘worship’ is translated as ‘service’.
FER Yes. Service in the sense of worship.
Ques Is He the great priest in the sanctuary?
FER More as the Son. What is an interesting point in the Old Testament, in this connection, is that the true principle of priesthood is seen after the gain-saying of Korah — that is Aaron’s rod that budded. In the apprehension of things that is a point of very great importance in their application to us.
THR You must bring in life out of death to apprehend worship. One has to go to God’s side of things. “Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance” (Exodus 15: 17). One has to have a sense that one belongs to the things [p. 50] of God. We have been brought into another system of things.
FER In the fellowship of His death. The gain-saying of Korah represents the apostasy of christianity. The professing system perished. Christendom never gets into the holiest. After that you get Aaron’s rod that budded — that is the true principle of priesthood.
FWJ Do you mean by that there is a peculiarity to priesthood now?
FER There always was — in the thought of God. It comes out distinctly in Aaron’s rod. It did not establish the priesthood but it brought out the true character of priesthood in Christ Himself. Christ is in life — out of death. Priests in christendom do not take that ground at all because they say priesthood is consequent on levitical service and not life out of death.
JB Must one know something about new creation also?
FER I do not think you can have anything that is properly priestly unless you have the idea of new creation. You have to learn death.
JB Would you exclude one who did not know that from worship?
FER If they have affection for God they might join in the worship of God. Priesthood in Christ Himself can only be in life out of death. It is a question of association with Christ.
ASL Christ was priest personally — was He not?
FER Yes, but I do not think that He could take priesthood up on that ground. If He is to take up priesthood in relation to man it must be in life out of death, because man is in death. Aaron’s rod literally was life out of death. You get the real character of the priesthood — the setting aside of the system that made Aaron priest and in the next chapter Aaron dies.
AM Would the “corn of wheat” go in that line at all?
FER Yes; quite so.
FB [p. 51] Then it was more than a confirmation of the priesthood?
FER It was an indication of what in God’s mind is to be the real power of priesthood.
ASL The power of an endless life?
FER Yes. Life out of death.
JB Is every person quickened who has received the Spirit of adoption whereby they cry “Abba, Father”?
FER A person might say “Abba, Father” in the power of the Spirit and not be quickened together with Christ. A person might have instinct and might in a sense be carried on by others.
Ques But there would not be any exclusion of a ‘babe’ in Christ from the breaking of bread?
FER Not at all, but I was speaking of the question of the worship of God, and how He will be served. A young christian has everything in the Spirit but may be but little formed in it. Every man begins as a ‘babe’ and is formed in divine things. The father is nothing more than a babe, but the father is a father and the babe is a babe.
JB But is not every person quickened who loves God?
FER I admit that is a proof and evidence of the Spirit being there.
THR You must be brought on to the ground of resurrection in your soul.
FER You must be on a certain platform — the platform on which God is. I think the first point to be ascertained is ‘what platform is God on?’ Then you must serve God on that platform.
THR I see the first intimation of worship in Abraham. God came in Genesis 15: 1 and says “I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward” — that is the earthly side. But in Genesis 17: 1, 2 God takes Abram to His side “walk before my face, and be perfect. And I will set my covenant between me and thee ..”. etc. and Abram fell on his face. It was the first recorded [p. 52] act of worship — the bowing down of the soul in the presence of God. Abram was called to God’s side of things.
AM You mean by that the way He has revealed Himself?
THR There is a great difference between God’s coming to me and my going to Him on His ground.
AM Would you say that sonship was the great qualification for worship?
FER Yes. But we were talking about the sanctuary and worship. In what light is God going to be approached? He is going to be approached in the light of what He is. It is a great point. You can contemplate God and give Him thanks. You can worship God in the working out of the purpose and counsel of His own will. It is what He is that brings in the platform of resurrection. Resurrection is the real beginning for God. The church is on the principle of life out of death. The whole range of divine purpose is on the principle of life out of death. We have to apprehend that He is working out His own will. “Ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead” (Colossians 2: 12). That is the principle — hence if it is a question of worshipping God, He must be apprehended in that light.
ASL So that if our faith does not go as far as resurrection we do not get to worship?
FER I think there are many give thanks who do not come to worship. The fact is we have not quite got an idea of the sanctuary.
Ques “Worship the Father in spirit and truth” (John 4: 23) — is that in connection?
FER Yes.
Ques You would make a difference between ‘title to enter’ and ‘entering’?
FER Oh yes. Everything belongs to the christian. There is no gift beyond the Spirit, but we only [p. 53] enter as the Spirit of God gives us power.
Ques Is the sanctuary the apprehension in the soul?
FER It is the apprehension of God in the light of His counsels in Christ.
ASL You made a remark at the beginning to the effect that we get into the sanctuary when we are ready for it. Will you say a little more as to that?
FER There is an important preceding point — that is, acquaintance with Christ. Those that live have to live under the conditions that God imposes. You cannot take up things on the ground that there is no harm in them. God has laid down conditions and everything outside of these conditions is death. If you are content to live under the conditions God has imposed, you live in the good of the covenant. We have come into the good of the covenant and if you will live by the benefits, then you will get the knowledge of God. The new covenant expresses God’s disposition to us.
THR The soul really finds the rest of God.
ASL What are the conditions you refer to?
FER The love and mercy of God — all outside of death — and all that is spiritual.
Ques “One thing have I asked of Jehovah, that will I seek after: that I may dwell ..”. etc. Psalm 27: 4. That was his desire?
FER Yes.
THR Many do not understand that the thought is a place to ‘dwell’. It is not a place to visit.
Ques If we realise the presence of the Lord on Lord’s day morning and walk disorderly during the week that does not mean that we should realise His presence the next time?
FER Everything depends on our condition at the moment.
ASL With regard to the sanctuary; in thought you have not got the ‘Lord’ before you as [p. 54] in the Supper?
FER In the Supper it is not the ‘Lord’ before you. The title refers to us individually. He is the ‘Head’ to the assembly.
ASL Is not the Supper the divinely appointed way by which the Lord introduces us to the assembly?
FER Yes. We recognise Him as Head. He is the Head of the priestly family. Mr. Darby always maintained that the title ‘Lord’ was introduced on account of their state. It is a title of reverence and respect.
FWJ Does not Paul change the title in 1 Corinthians 10? He speaks of the blood of “Christ” but when he is contrasting the cup with the cup of demons he speaks of the cup of the “Lord”.
FER Yes.
ASL We are gathered together in the name of the Lord Jesus.
FER Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him “lord”, but Abraham was not ‘lord’ to Sarah. It is a question of respect and reverence.
THR Sarah obeyed Abraham. He was her head though she called him lord. She was true to her head.
RE Is the sanctuary the sense of apprehension of a Man in resurrection — the thought of rest?
FER It is the resting place of God. It is the Man in whom God is working out the counsels of His own will. In the question of approach to God the first question is the ‘call of God’. What are we called to? Too many never think of what they are called to. What was Abraham called to? If people took this question into account it would generally affect them. ‘What has He called me to?’ Then you get grace for the call.
ASL What would you say the call is?
FER Sonship, through Jesus Christ, to Himself Then He has given us grace suited to the call — the power of access by Jesus to the Father. Then the condition of the call is life out of death, proved by the statement that you are risen with Christ.
Ques Why do you put that at [p. 55] the end?
FER Because you get that in type in Korah. They disregarded the call of God. Clergymen have no call and are trying to carry out the call without the grace. If God has called us (and we take that ground) we have grace suited to the call. Then the condition of the call can be carried out.
JB When you say that the call is sonship, it is the purpose of God?
FER It is what God has called us to.
JB So we can enter into it now?
FER We are sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
RE Would you say that Israel apprehended the call in Exodus 15?
FER Yes. It is a curious thing that the first time sonship occurs in Scripture is in Exodus 4: 22 — “Israel is my son, my firstborn”.
RE Then would you say that a soul must be in the good of Exodus 15 to enter the sanctuary?
FER Yes. We must apprehend the call. It is impossible for God to give us a call without first giving us grace to answer to it and the condition is life out of death. The principle of His operation was on the principle of life out of death. We have access by one Spirit to the Father. We have got the Spirit which cries “Abba, Father”. We should be formed according to God’s purpose. The renewing of the Holy Spirit can only come after the Holy Spirit is given.
Ques Is the sanctuary the proper sphere for sonship?
FER Yes. I think so.
Ques Will you say a little as to Exodus 15, Exodus 16 and Exodus 17?
FER How exceedingly interesting that is. First you get redemption. God took up His right in regard to His people. Then there is the thought of the “abode of his holiness”. Where is it? His love is the abode of His holiness. Then “thou shalt bring them in”. They must be according to His holiness. He brings you [p. 56] to the sanctuary. In Hebrews 12 He chastens us that we may share in His holiness. His holiness abides in His nature. The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
ASL That brings us back to Ephesians 3.
FER The condition in which a christian is to live is in the love and mercy of God.
JB The love of God shed abroad in our hearts. Is that the abode of His holiness?
FER Yes. The love of God — His nature — is the abode of His holiness. You regard God in another light and the next thing is the sanctuary. You are prepared for it in nature. You are holy as God is holy. If we got into the sanctuary we should be consciously before the Father. We feel we are not fit for the sanctuary — to enter into the nature of God.
JB To know the “length and breadth”, etc.?
FER That is exactly it. The love of Christ takes in the whole range of divine counsel. He is the true land of promise. Christ has ascended far above all heavens that He might fill all things.
JB Well I suppose no one need be discouraged?
FER Oh no! We need not be discouraged. I am not, although I feel how small I am morally — how small we all are. We were all young once.
JB Some of us would like to know what you mean by being ‘small morally’?
FER We are so young in the things of God. It does take a time to lead us into these things. We have to accept that we are nothing. I delight in the last verse of 87:3 — ‘That we our nothingness may know’. The apostle had a sense of his nothingness.
ASL What is the true tabernacle?
FER The whole moral system of things — the moral universe of bliss.
ASL He is the official administrator of that also?
FER Yes. He has ascended up that He might fill all things. Our moral proportions are according to our [p. 57] knowledge of God, and I think our knowledge of God is extremely limited.
Ques Is it only by the knowledge of God we grow?
FER That is the only way.