THE ASSEMBLY AS THE CITY
THE ASSEMBLY AS THE CITY
HAD We had thought of taking up the assembly in connection with the world to come. We have had before “the gospel”, “the will of God”, “the world to come”, and now we had thought of taking up the assembly, and its place in connection with the world to come.
FER The church is really more on the line of the city, the holy Jerusalem, then the world to come, as “the holy city, Jerusalem”, (Revelation 21: 10), but when it is a question of new heavens and earth, it is “the holy city, new Jerusalem”. “Holy” is in contrast to the false city in chapter 17, and it is the “holy city” in connection with the world to come; but when you come to new heavens and new earth, it is the “new Jerusalem”. It has its place in regard to both, it is suitable to both, so it is holy in the world to come, and new, when all is new. What God has been working, culminates in the city; every pledge of divine ways is gathered up in the city, with the object that God may be displayed. The harlot is the rival of the bride, and of her it says, “which has kingship over the kings of the earth”.
HAD You were speaking of “the Israel of God” as maintained in the church last time?
FER Yes, it is so I think; the thought of God’s Israel is taken up in the companions of Christ. You see that it is entirely impossible that there should be any lapse in the ways of God.
Ques Is that continued in the city, as seen in the new heavens and new earth?
FER Well no, all that comes to an end in the world to come, and you get a new order of things entirely; but the point is, it is suitable to both.
Ques Is the new heavens and new earth [p. 76] an eternal thought?
FER Well I suppose so, in the kingdom everything is subjugated to Christ, so that God may be all in all. Of course there is some relation between the dispensations and what is eternal; it must be so, they must have some relation to each other.
Ques Chapter 2: 7 would be eternal purpose?
FER Yes, “That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus”. There is no doubt that all through Scripture, there is some general thought connected with the city.
Ques Is it not the seat of government?
FER To my mind it is symbolic of imperial rule, wherever you get the idea of the city, it has that meaning pretty much. Men set to work to build a city for themselves — Babylon came in in that way, and so too with Rome — and it was a city which represented imperial rule. That is the thought in the harlot, it is “the great city”, and it rules over the kings of the earth. That is the thought always attached to the idea of a city.
Ques What do you mean by imperial rule?
FER The idea of “Lord of lords and King of kings” you know. You get a striking illustration of it in Babylon; there is the assumption of absolute imperial rule, and of ecclesiastical rule. It has taken the character of a city which rules over the kings of the earth, and there is the assumption of imperial rule there beyond all doubt.
Ques That is still to be, is it not?
FER Well the harlot will yet ride the beast, but the beast hates the harlot and. casts her off. She assumes to reign over the kings of the earth; she is the rival of the holy city. A city is the expression of man’s glory, “Is not this great Babylon that I have built?”
DLH Cain called his city after the name of his son, that was in a way, for his own glory.
FER Yes.
[p. 77] Ques But God takes up the idea, He too will have a city?
FER Yes, I think so; Jerusalem is the city of the great King, it is no common king but the great King.
WHH Why do you take up the thought from Ephesians 3 instead of from the Revelation?
FER Well you get it in Ephesians more from a christian point of view than in the Revelation. There are two great lights in which you can look at the church, inward and outward; there is an aspect of the church which is outward, and that is very specially its aspect in connection with the world to come. But then there is another aspect of the church and that is its aspect inwardly, and for God. It is inward and God-ward. The outward takes its character from the inward.
Ques Is that the bride and the body?
FER Well I am inclined to think so, but even then the bride is presented to Christ according to Himself; holy and blameless, it is presented to Himself; suitable to Himself. You must not make the bride merely display, that was pretty much Mr. Cluff’s mistake I think.
DLH The bride is the vessel for the display of Christ.
FER Yes, it is Christ’s body, and Christ is the life of that body. The house is really a thought taken up from what had been with Israel; so many things are taken up and applied to us whether they are new things entirely, or things which had a previous application to Israel. For instance, the house, and the flock, or sonship; all these thoughts are taken up from the previous ways of God; but then there are certain things which are entirely peculiar to the church, it is not only that they are taken up in the church, but they are peculiar to the church. I do not think there was ever such an idea in Israel as the body, that is peculiar to the church, and evidently it is peculiar to the church on account of the indwelling of the Spirit; that gives its [p. 78] peculiar character to the church at once, it is distinctive of the church.
Rem It was a mystery hid.
FER Quite so, and it is easy to understand that in the Spirit, Jew and gentile are built together, they are one, made to drink into one Spirit. Whatever may be the effect of the pouring out of the Spirit in the future, I do not think people will be indwelt by the Spirit, that is peculiar to the present time. All flesh will come under the influence of the Spirit, but the Lord could speak of the coming of the Comforter and say “He abides with you, and shall be in you”.
Ques Does the Spirit go when the body goes?
FER I suppose so, it is to those who obey God, and when those who obey Him are gone, then the Spirit will go too.
FRK In the sense in which He dwells now I suppose. In the Revelation you get, “Yea, saith the Spirit”?
FER But that is a present utterance of the Spirit I should judge, “Blessed ... the dead ... from henceforth”. You constantly get these interjections through the book of the Revelation, but they have a present bearing, a present application. For instance, “Come out of her my people”, and then on the part of the Lord “I will give to him that thirsts”. In the midst of all the judgments you get an appeal having a present force. In chapter 14: 13, “Yea, saith the Spirit”, is a kind of response of the Spirit.
In looking at the assembly in Ephesians 3 the great point is what God is going to set forth in the church. The church is to rule but how? It is the vessel of rule, and the nations will walk in the light of it, but how? I think it will be like the sun, she will rule by the superiority of her light! The church will know more than all else, it will be so acquainted with God, and with God’s ways, that it will be competent to rule. The heavenly city will be able to inform the earthly city [p. 79] of all that concerns it.
WHH In that way will God administrate through the church?
FER Well, you are able to comprehend with all saints, that is, you are acquainted with the whole scheme and plan of God’s ways. You are able to comprehend with all saints what is the length and breadth and depth and height. Every part of the system will be in communication.
Ques Like John 1, “Henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened”?
FER It is that the earth is responsive to heaven, and the heavens to the earth.
Ques What is the force of verse 10, “in order that now”?
FER For the time being the church is here upon earth, but in the time to come, the church is taken up into the heavenly places.
I think that the whole point of the prayer is, that the Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; you want to entertain the thought of the Christ. If the Christ is dwelling in your hearts by faith, you must surely take your character from Him. He has ascended up high above all heavens, that He may fill all things; Christ is going to displace everything, just as with the sun, when he gets up in power, the early morning mists and fogs are all cleared away. So with the Christ, darkness, and clouds, and mists are all dispelled before Him, and He fills the whole scene. That is the idea to me in the Christ dwelling in your hearts by faith.
Ques Does not the line of the hymn express it, ‘The centre Thou and Sun’. (11:4)
FER Yes, then you comprehend with all saints the breadth, and length, and depth and height, and know the love of the Christ which passeth knowledge. The warmth that will fill the universe of bliss, is the love of Christ. The point in the prayer is, that there might be present glory to God in the church, but there [p. 80] will be glory too, to Him throughout all ages. The Christ is to dwell in your hearts by faith that you may be filled to all the fulness of God; all that is of God is set forth in Christ. Where have we learned to love one another? Why do we learn to have love one for another? Because we have perceived the love of God towards us, in Christ, we learn the love of God in Christ. To know the love of the Christ, as the verse in Mr. Darby’s hymn puts it —
‘But not an eye those hosts among,
But sees His glory Thine’. (178:4)
You cannot separate between them.
Ques You would say that John helps Paul in that way?
FER Yes, always. God has been pleased to give us things in detail so as to help us in the understanding of them. It is just like the light shining on a precious stone, the light is all broken up into different rays, it is all variegated. The sum total of the rays is light, it is just light that will come out by and by.
I do not wish that we should get exaggerated ideas of the church and yet one must see that in the Revelation it has a most extraordinary place.
Ques Does the future glory depend on the present knowledge?
FER The vessel is being formed; that is the present operation of the Spirit of God. In the epistles we get to a very large extent the formation of the vessel. You get in Colossians “From which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God”, that is the vessel again. The, vessel is being formed that it might be according to Christ. If you take the divine idea of a wife, the husband is known in the wife; a woman does not shine in her own light, but like the moon, by the glory of another. So the woman is the effulgence of the man, and the church is being formed in the love of Christ, in order that it may be His glory.
[p. 81] The husband of the virtuous woman is known in the gate. There are two things, you are to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man, and the Christ is to dwell in your hearts by faith; the one answers to the other, and you must have the strengthening of the Spirit in order that the Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith. Faith presents this, that it is God’s pleasure that Christ should dwell in your hearts by faith.
Ques Would you say that you are being formed for two things, to meet the heart of Christ and to rule?
FER The two things go together. Christ is the most competent to rule, He is the Head of all principality and power, and no power knows how to rule but Christ. Acquaintance with Christ is the secret of rule. “By me princes rule”. I do not see any king on earth who knows how to rule, though I may be considered radical for saying it, it is “by me”, that princes rule. The extraordinary thing is that the christian is able to judge them, and to pray for them; it is by the knowledge of Christ that I am able to judge them, I discern them.
Ques What is, “spoiled principalities and powers”?
FER He took all power out of their hand, when God was revealed in the cross the principalities and powers were spoiled, it was by the death of Christ, for in that, God was fully revealed. You get thrones and dominions too, but that is another thought, but they too are taken up. A monarch today has title by heredity, but he has to be trained for his great office; well, Christ has proved His qualification to rule and now you are compelled to judge by that standard. You cannot but see the weakness of kings and queens today, power is really in the will of the people; the power of the sovereign is really extremely small, but it is covered up by a great deal of show. In the world to come you will have a system which is maintained morally. “Thou hast loved righteousness and hast hated lawlessness”. Christ will be the fountain of divine authority, and He is meek and lowly in heart. “Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek and sitting upon an ass”, but then He has got all divine power. The heavenly city takes its character from Christ, and we are being brought now into accord with Christ in mind, in nature, and everything. “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him”. Who is the man who rules now? The man who will suffer. It is the man who is prepared to suffer who conquers. I believe that christianity was established in the world, because the testimony was placed in the hands of men who were prepared to suffer the loss of all things; and you can easily see that if you overcome morally now, how it qualifies the saints to rule with Christ in His kingdom. I think the Lord chose men at the first who were prepared to suffer for their testimony, and it was in that way they overcame and christianity became established.
WHH There is no temple in the holy Jerusalem?
FER The earthly city is the city of the great King, but it was never wholly of God as the new Jerusalem will be. It was a city taken up by God, it was the city of David, and God saw fit to take up that particular city, but when you come to the holy city the new Jerusalem it is all according to promise, it is all of God. The kings of the earth are delighted to bring their glory and honour into it, they are delighted to see what is set forth by God in Christ. I have no doubt that greater light is taken in by Israel than by the nations, but they walk in the light of the city. Everything lies in the shining of Christ. There are certain nations which come into salvation, and they walk in the light of the heavenly city. The whole thing is explained in Ephesians 3. If you get that prayer fulfilled, everything is explained. But then how is it to be? You are to be strengthened by might by His Spirit in the inner man, but are you prepared to sacrifice the outward man? The two cannot go on together. The inner man is in contrast to the outward man, it is true of every christian. The outward [p. 83] man is the man who is in touch with all that is present; and the inner man is the man who is in touch with God, and all that is of God. The holy Jerusalem is not in connection with the outward man, but the inner man. The outward man is not merely the body, but it is the man that is in touch with present things.
EG It used to be said that the man who is under judgment is gone in judgment, is that the outward man?
FER Oh no, that man is gone in judgment so that God might not be hindered in His work; it is the removal of the old man so that God might put the new man where the old man was. God has removed the old man in order to make room for Christ. Both terms “old man”, and “new man” represent an order of man; but the “I”, the individual, is the christian, and he has put off the old man and put on the new. Characteristically the new man is Christ. The inward man represents the work of God in a man; men cannot touch the inward man; if you think of the very strongest man on this earth, he is perishing, but you cannot touch the inward man. It is a mental conception. The seat of divine knowledge is the inner man.
In Galatians you are the children of the city; in Hebrews you have come to it, and in Revelation you are in it.
DLH What is the force of Jerusalem, our mother?
FER That is a great point, you are the children of promise; the purpose of God is our mother, Jerusalem above is all of God’s purpose and we are the children of promise. The earthly Jerusalem was David’s city, and God took it up, but if I apprehend that I am of God’s purpose, that Jerusalem above is my mother, and that for God, the old man is gone in judgment, then I come into liberty. You have to apprehend that the old man is gone in judgment. I think those two things are needed for liberty, the old man is gone in judgment, and that you are of God’s purpose; you have come to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem;
[p. 84] that is the city of purpose, there is no single element in it which is not of God, and of God’s purpose.
DLH Then is “our mother” that we derive from the purpose of God?
FER Yes, I think so; it is the city of His purpose. What a wonderful thing it is when I come to it, that I am really according to God’s purpose, He sees nothing in me but what is His work. Christianity really lies in the Spirit, and the Spirit gives realisation.
Ques Is that like “in Christ” in Ephesians?
FER I should think so. When you come to the holy Jerusalem in Revelation there is not one single thing in it from foundation to gates that is not of God, it is all perfect, there is not a bit of man’s work in it. The walls are exclusive in the very nature of it, it is so holy that it must exclude everything which is impure. Then the gates show an outward relation, and the angels are the guardians in a way; the executors of God’s pleasure. When Christ was on earth He was put in the charge of angels.
Ques Was “Henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened” fulfilled in the life of the Lord?
FER Well perhaps. In one way I do not think it is so much a question of the heavens being opened now, they were to Stephen, but today God and Christ are hid behind a veil of providences; God will come out in the city, He will be no longer hid then.
I think you have first to come to the fact that Jerusalem above is your mother, you have left earth and all earthly props. Earthly systems are all more or less bondage, but Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. Until people are free from these earthly links and attachments, they never really get free. God gives a man just light enough to deliver him from those things. Isaac was begotten of Sarah, he was the child of promise, and we are begotten of promise, we are of God’s purpose.
Ques Is this like leaving the boat?
FER Yes, people have to get free from earthly [p. 85] entanglements and bondage, to get into the reality of divine things.
Ques What about “rooted and founded in love”?
FER That is capability “You ... hath he quickened”, the real power of intelligence is affection; I do not think anyone is intelligent except in proportion to his affection. So we are knit together in love, we do not get intelligence except by affection. What I feel is that intelligence requires to be more universal, and the secret of that is affection. You may get a man of very great intelligence in the world but the extraordinary thing is that very generally he is lacking in great affection, and therefore he is not broad. For my part I would much rather have a man of much affection and sympathy than a man of great intelligence. A child in one way has very great capability.
Ques How would you understand the prayer being addressed to the “Father”?
FER I think I should connect it with the thought that counsels belong to the Father, counsels are attributed to the Father, though they all centre in the Son.
Ques What is the thought in the families?
FER All the work of God is connected with the families, the saints, Israel indeed even in the midst of Israel you may have some select family. The 144,000 who follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, appear to have a very special place; they learn the heavenly song, and certainly they are very closely in contact with heaven.
‘All the Father’s counsels claiming
Equal honours to the Son’. (14:4)
Rem It is the Spirit of the Father that strengthens you.
FER I think so; the point in the passage is that God may be livingly presented in the church. The place of the church has been greatly overlooked, people think they have got an inspired text-book in the Scriptures, but the fact is that they have got it all livingly set [p. 86] forth in a vessel. Underneath what is outward, you have really got the body of Christ and God has gathered up every thread in the church.
Ques What is the force of the 18th verse?
FER It is the whole expanse of divine purpose in Christ. I think it is most wonderful how God has acted, He set forth the responsible man first, and then when he is set aside, He set forth the Man of His purpose, and everything — every thought of His mind — is set forth in Him. In the Adam all died, but it is in the Christ that you are filled to all the fulness of God. It is in Christ that you are filled, and He is great enough to fill all things.