ETERNAL LIFE
ETERNAL LIFE
DLH You said last time that in chapter 5 we get what eternal life is.
FER Yes, chapters 5 and 6 follow on chapter 4 in a kind of moral sequence. Chapter 3 is the commandment of God, and chapter 4 is how you get to it. Chapters 5 and 6 give us the idea of what is meant by eternal life. I should connect chapter 5 with the last verse of Romans 5 and chapter 6 with the last verse of Romans 6.
DLH Is the idea in chapter 5 you get the victory in regard to death?
FER Yes, in Romans 5 sin has reigned by death, and grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life. In chapter 6 it is the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.
JB Do you mean that in chapter 3 eternal life is the commandment of God?
FER I think so; you can see that in verse 16 that is the commandment of God. It is His thought for man — His commandment, what He has ordained — and in chapter 4 you get what follows on it. Chapter 3 is God’s side and chapter 4 is ours. It is not only that you do not thirst, but the water that Christ gives is a well springing up to eternal life. Chapter 3 is for faith, and chapter 4 is the well of water in the believer.
JSO Do we not get here the question raised by the Jews as to who the Lord was?
FER The point is that the accusation of the Lord brings out the unity of the Father and the Son, and the authority of the Son to deal with the whole domain of death. “Even as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life ...”. Romans 5: 21. What comes out in [p. 67] chapter 5 is the domain of death, and chapter 6 is the scene of dearth. Divine authority in the Son meets the question of death, and living bread meets dearth. That is how eternal life is brought into the world dispensationally.
DLH Is it presented mediatorially in chapter 5?
FER It is in chapter 6. But it is not enough that there should be authority to deal with death; you want something to meet the dearth, that is living bread.
JSO Do you distinguish between the Son of man judging and the Son of God giving life?
FER It is the Son of God who judges as Son of man. Life-giving involves sovereignty. The Son of man maintains responsibility and judges, but He also quickens whom He will in sovereignty.
JSO Is the sovereignty there in view of His rights as Son?
FER It is authority which is proper to Him, but which is given to Him because He became Man. It is not conferred authority as in the kingdom. He has authority to deal with the whole question of responsibility and death.
DLH He has annulled death and brought life and incorruptibility to light.
FER Quite so, people have very little sense of Christ; they believe in Him personally but do not apprehend Him officially. They do not apprehend that in which He is in regard to the universe of bliss, the system of things which is connected with Him and which comes under Him. All is there for us, we have come to it.
JSO You mean displayed in Him as centre.
FER Exactly, all that will be brought to light in Him. He is everything in that order of things and we need to apprehend Him in the light of that. He is the beginning, Head, bond, centre and principal of that order. It is a remarkable expression, “the mystery of Christ” (Colossians 4: 3), and also “that the Christ [p. 68] may dwell, through faith, in your hearts ...”, Ephesians 3: 17. There is One who in unity with the Father has authority to deal with the entire domain of death. I see responsibility and death on every hand, but when I look at Christ I apprehend One with authority to deal with it.
JB It takes up the whole question of every one.
FER Yes, “...that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live”. (verse 25). Then, “...for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall go forth;” (verse 28). He deals with the entire domain of death.
JB He is God but He judges as Son of man.
FER That is because of the Father and the Son being in unity. The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father doing. It is the most practical moral unity between the Father and the Son. There is no divergence from the mind of the Father.
JSO It is remarkable how the unbelief of the Jews brings this out as to His Person.
FER Really it brings out what in all probability is one of the most remarkable revelations in Scripture, the relation between the Father and the Son.
Ques Who are the dead in verse 21?
FER Every one is alike in the eye of God.
Ques Physically and morally?
FER The sentence of death is upon them. It was said to Adam, “for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die”, (Genesis 2: 17), but as a matter of fact he lived hundreds of years after. In the eye of God people whether here or in their graves are under death. “... that one died for all, then all have died”, 2 Corinthians 5: 14. They would not be under the judgment of God if they were not morally dead.
JSO Would you say a word on authority here? Do you mean that the Son receives authority from God as Son?
FER [p. 69] What was in my mind is that the authority of God is represented in the Son. All authority is given unto Him in heaven and on earth in connection with the revelation of God. All the authority of God is represented in the Son so that whatever the Father does the Son does; He judges and there is quickening which involves sovereignty. Judgment is committed unto Him because He is Son of man. The greatest thought in this chapter is the Son of God, and in the next chapter the Son of man.
GJS Is Son of man a divine title?
FER It is an official title; it is the fulfilment of Psalm 8. The title which is properly peculiar to the Person, is the Son. It is the Father and the Son which come out here. The Son is the peculiarly personal name of Christ.
ASL The Son of God is different from that?
FER I think there is a shade of difference.
ASL When you said that the point in chapter 5 is the Son of God and in chapter 6 the Son of man, would you say a word as to the difference?
FER In chapter 5 the point is authority, in chapter 6 it is bread. Chapter 5 is a death scene and chapter 6 is a dearth scene. The living bread meets the dearth scene, and authority given to the Son of man deals with the whole domain of death; it is only authority which can deal with it; responsibility can only be taken up on authority.
DLH What would be the difference between this and chapter 11: 25 “I am the resurrection and the life”?
FER The Lord simply says here, “... for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall go forth”. They shall go forth in connection with Him because He is the resurrection and the life. Those that are in their graves shall come out as surely as He came out.
JB The domain of death is broken up entirely.
[p. 70] FER It is dealt with in the extent of it. It is a point of the last moment for our hearts to be established in. The thought of a great many does not go beyond the soul going to heaven. I doubt if the large proportion of christians entertain the thought that there is power and authority in Christ to deal with the whole domain of death.
I suppose that the man at the pool is figurative of Israel. When the Lord comes He speaks the quickening word to them. The nation lives really by the voice of the Son of God. It is not evangelical. Quickening raises the thought of sovereignty, it comes on that line; if it were otherwise you would not have responsibility maintained, but the Lord is careful to show that it is maintained, while, at the same time there is quickening. I refer to judgment being committed to the Son. Judgment maintains responsibility; God will maintain responsibility, and yet He quickens according to His mercy, but that means bringing in sovereignty.
ASL The giving of life is always connected with sovereignty.
FER I think so. In general you will find in Scripture the thought of sovereignty connected with mercy; it is so in Romans 9, Romans 10 and Romans 11.
AEW Grace is more general.
ASB As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
FER That is the principle here, it is awakening. Chapter 3 presents the command of God and the outcome of it. It was His mind towards the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, and, as a matter of fact, there is a point of contact between God and man, and that is, Christ is available for every man. Men may not avail themselves of it, but it is there, and there is no other. Everything for us really depends upon the knowledge of Christ and the knowledge of the Father. We get all the good of what belongs to Christ [p. 71] in anticipation.
JSO Mercy brings in the state of the people, and grace is rather more the style and way in which He does it.
FER Grace represents the attitude of God, it brings salvation to all men.
JAT Grace is a New Testament doctrine, and mercy is an Old Testament one. It disappears in the New Testament except in those passages you quoted.
FER It is perfectly intelligible too; because grace is based on redemption. Righteousness being accomplished, it represents the attitude of God.
AEW Is authority based on the cross?
FER No, it is what is proper to the Son. The right of judgment belongs to God, but now you have the revelation of God as the Father and the Son. The Lord shows that, that judgment is committed to the Son, because the Son has become Man. He secured His honour on account of His having become Man. The Son simply exercises that which belongs to God. Things are not going to be left in the world as they are, in a state of death and confusion. It is a great comfort to me to have the light of God, of the Father and the Son, and that one is acquainted with the competency there is in Him to deal with it. I cannot see how a man can desire the continuance of things as they are.
DLH As we are really in the light of His victory we have plenty of food.
FER What will be fulfilled in the day of Christ’s glory is available to us now in anticipation. We get death swallowed up in victory before the actual time of quickening comes. We have passed out of death into life. The word ‘Son’ is that in which the Son is expressed, it is expressive of Himself. I connect it with John 3 and 17. The Son is the sent One of the Father. Chapter 6 is the apprehension of the Son in another light, yet we have to apprehend Him in both lights. Many apprehend Him as having authority to meet death, but I do not know if they [p. 72] apprehend the One who meets dearth.
JSO That would be subjective, the result of His working in us.
FER Exactly; chapter 6 is Christ bringing the good of heaven within the reach of man’s appropriation. The principles of the world are lust and ambition, and it would be nothing without them, they are the moving springs in it, but Christ brings into it the good of heaven — rest, satisfaction, goodness and love. In that way God begins again completely in Christ, and He gives character to the whole scene, He gives the new start, and all take character from Him, and, instead of a world governed by lust and ambition, He brings in a world governed by love. The world is governed by literature. People think they are going to get great light from the East, and hence you have the light of the East — Mohammedism and Buddhism — brought into England.
JSO If you feed on the food provided in chapter 6 you do not want much else.
FER No, God can do better for the world than man by his lust and ambition. No one but a divine Person could take up what we find in chapter 5. You will never get eternal life brought into the world until death is swallowed up in victory. It is characteristic of the coming age.
Ques Is eternal life objective in chapters 3, 4, 5 and 6?
FER In chapters 3 and 4 you get the thought of it without any explanation as to what it is. Chapters 5 and 6 really show you what it means, they show that in which eternal life really consists. Christ takes away the sin of the world and gives life to it.
JB The Old Testament made known things to come.
FER It hinted at it. Life is given to Christ in order that He may communicate it. Eternal life is for Christ in order that it may characterise His age, and salvation is for Him that He may have great glory [p. 73] in it.
Everything is for Him.
JHK Is eternal life for the earth?
FER That is the bearing of it in these chapters. The domain of death is not in heaven.
JHK Does it go beyond the earth?
FER I think it is presented in contrast to “even as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life ..”., Romans 5: 21. It is eternal life in the place where death has reigned.
JSO You have got into the sphere of eternal life although you are here on earth.
FER Christ was here in that way and we come into it by the Spirit. Eternal life is objective in a way because Christ is it. It is the Spirit — not the life — which is subjective. If we know anything about it, it depends upon the light in which we apprehend Christ. It is one hearing and believing who has eternal life.
Ques Is it characteristic of such a person?
FER Yes. It is characteristic of a person that he hears the word of Christ and believes on Him that sent Him. It is a continuing thing.
What a wonderful thing it is that He should bring to light the unity of the Father and the Son, and that was not touched in any way by the fact of the Son being Man. The Lord was working here in the presence of men, but in unity with the Father doing things shown to Him by the Father; raising up the dead is the operation of the Father. It is not only raising up the dead, but He also quickens. There are plenty of people who would tell you that there is nothing better than death, but there is One who is competent to deal with the entire domain of death and that according to God in divine wisdom and righteousness. It is all according to divine love because everything must be carried out according to the command of God.
JSO How far will the knowledge of the Father and the Son be [p. 74] known hereafter?
FER I am not sure about that. The truth will be there for them, but the question is capability to enter into it.
JSO Eternal life in regard to the saints gives you a deeper thought.
FER Quite so, it lies in knowledge, with them it will lie in fact. When the Lord comes there will be the actual quickening. Israel will be quickened and death swallowed up in victory.
Another thing is this, that even the very knowledge in which eternal life consists is qualifying us for heaven to be with God.