THE BEARING OF PETER'S EPISTLES ON THE PRESENT DAY (1)
THE BEARING OF PETER’S EPISTLES ON THE PRESENT DAY (1)
JT I had in mind to begin with the first epistle, but the characteristics of the second epistle are needed at the present time. This epistle deals with sin. The epistle of Jude is a similar book dealing with apostasy, but Peter deals directly with sin and how we overcome. The point is that we should be overcomers according to the book of Revelation. The Lord’s remarks point to overcoming. They refer to ourselves, especially to the young people, at this present time, that we may be overcomers, overcomers of sin, walking in the light as He is in the light, so that we have fellowship with one another.
RWS Do you discriminate between sin as in 2 Peter and apostasy as in Jude?
JT Quite so. Of course, we are dealing with 2 Peter, I only made comment about Jude to make comparison.
RWS Would Jude be a later stage in the process involving apostasy? Does 2 Peter lead up to it?
JT I think if we would look at Jude we would see how emphatic he was. “Jude, bondman of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to the called ones beloved in God the Father and preserved in Jesus Christ: Mercy to you, and peace, and love be multiplied. Beloved, using all diligence to write to you of our common salvation, I have been obliged to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith”. Now, the comment I would make on that is Jude was very urgent. He had to turn aside from something else to meet a condition, and there is something similar to that at this time in Indianapolis. There may be a condition that has to be met. And we will have to find out as we proceed; the Spirit of God will probably indicate to us that there is a [p. 340] condition to be met or something that has to be dealt with. But at the same time the idea of sin is more in Peter’s epistle than in Jude. Peter had to write the first epistle and then the second epistle, one after the other, but Jude had only one epistle. It was a matter of urgency to him to turn aside from what he had in his mind, as he says, “I have been obliged to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints”. That is to say, it is not simply a gospel address, it is the faith once delivered to the saints that they had turned aside from, and the reason of it is given, “For certain men have got in unnoticed, they who of old were marked out beforehand to this sentence, ungodly persons, turning the grace of our God into dissoluteness, and denying our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ”. So the distinction between the two epistles is very clear. The one has to do with sin, that is Peter, and Jude has to do with apostasy. But he is urged to deal with it as something that had to be dealt with urgently.
JTJr 2 Peter 1: 9 says, “has forgotten the purging of his former sins”. Is that the first allusion to what you have in mind?
JT Quite so. Former sins, not sins well known in the world, but the former sins. “For he with whom these things are not present is blind, short-sighted, and has forgotten the purging of his former sins”. So that we shall have to be dependent on the Spirit as we proceed to think of what there may be in Indianapolis in this sense of former sins that have to be adjusted, so that we may come back to what we have been going on with fully, because the great scope of the truth has been opened up from time to time in this very town, away back for fifty years. And now we are here at this time and the question is what may be urged particularly and if the brethren are free to search their hearts we may be helped at this reading to give a lead [p. 341] in the other readings.
CAM As you remark there has been much in the way of powerful testimony in this city in past years and Satan might seek to spoil it.
JT Quite so. We have to be on guard lest we should spoil it.
CCT What is the thought as to the divine power in verse 3 of this passage: “As his divine power has given to us all things which relate to life and godliness”. Does that enter into the question of sin, that we would move in power in connection with it?
JT We are fully provided from God’s side to deal with all matters that interfere with the progress of the truth. We may too have in our minds something that will be helpful in that respect that should come out as we proceed at this time.
JTJr Would not “all things” be very extensive? “All things which relate to life and godliness”. That is the extent of what has been given to us.
JT Life and godliness, that is a great phrase, life first and then godliness. Peter has a way of using one phase of the truth to develop another. So that it is not simply a question of God here, but His divine power which has given to us all things which relate to life and godliness. His divine power has done that, provided for us.
CCT Does the thought of knowledge enter into that also? It says, “through the knowledge of him that has called us”.
JT That is what I am trying to speak of. One phase of the truth is used to develop other phases. So now it is a question not only of life and godliness, but of knowledge. The brethren ought to be concerned about knowledge. Hence the readings that we have are for us to get a knowledge of Scripture on the Lord’s day or in the week days. It is a question of acquiring knowledge. The Spirit of God is here to help us and we are to help one another; any gift we may have is for us to use to help the brethren.
JTJr The word ‘through’ would be the instrumentality, one thing or another, through the knowledge, then through which we are called and then through these ye may be partakers. The word ‘through’ is connecting all these things.
JT Just so, instrumentality. God had provided it too. But what God has provided is one thing and what we may be able to provide is another thing. We ought to be able to provide something, to add to what God has provided. God loves His people to be with Him in what He is doing. He is operating and He is ready to have His people join with Him in what He is doing in unfolding the truth through them.
LES Would you mind saying a word as to verse one, “through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”? I was wondering whether the bringing forward of the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ would not be the preservative from sin. I would be glad if you would say a word as to that.
JT “To them that have received like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”. This is the opening part of the book, and it is a question of Peter, not in his first epistle, but in the second epistle, the one that has come into his mind after the first. Evidently something had happened and he needed to write again so that what had happened might be dealt with. The question is whether anything has happened here in this meeting and whether we are dealing with it, or whether the persons involved are dealing with it, because there is to be a turning-point and these meetings are in mind for that very purpose.
LES So that the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ involves the whole moral dealing with sin. Would that be right?
JT Just so. I suppose we might go back to Genesis to get help on these matters. How many times Genesis stands out in dealing with matters. Genesis affords much [p. 343] in this respect. It is very early in the Scriptures, but Peter is very late and Peter was the leading apostle at first. Paul of course came in later. Clearly “first ... Peter” is mentioned (Matthew 10: 2), he was the leading apostle. It is right to have someone who leads in the things of God. Peter was the one to take it up here in the first epistle and now in the second epistle. In the second epistle he is dealing with certain sinful conditions and the point is therefore whether we are challenging our hearts as to whether these conditions have any existence at all or whether they can be met.
RWS Is that a feature of the second epistles generally such as the second epistle to Corinth and to Thessalonica and now of Peter?
JT Quite so. What do you say about these second epistles?
RWS The change that came in at Corinth required the second letter and some error at Thessalonica as to the day of the Lord caused the second epistle to be written, and now you have suggested that something had come in which Peter knew of and which required the second letter.
JT Well I think that confirms what I have said and it is quite important and really enters into what has been in mind in these meetings as to the second epistle of Peter; of course what you have said about other second epistles has a great bearing on this. So it is a question of what the brethren have in their minds whether they can unfold anything to us and help each other. You have taken notice of the second epistles, I can see you have by the way you speak of them, and it is a question for each of us to see whether we have taken notice of them and whether we have anything to deal with in answer to them.
WMcK Peter’s use of the word “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ” suggests that this matter of righteousness has a peculiar bearing on [p. 344] ourselves.
JT It certainly has. It is the foundation of the gospel, righteousness. There can be nothing right without righteousness.
CAM Would you say that the Holy Spirit is stressing this matter of righteousness because things are deteriorating everywhere?
JT Quite so.
ASB So that the reference in verse one, “To them that have received like precious faith”, is very beautiful, Peter being a family man and the quality of faith and measure of faith being received from God; as it says, God has given to each a measure of faith. The truth is not to deteriorate, as you are emphasizing, so it says, “Grace and peace be multiplied”. That is the grace of God and the peace of God are to be extended or expanded in relation to ourselves.
JT Quite so. So we can see what a fine opening up we have.
JTJr Is the word “precious” another keyword in the epistles? Things become precious to us.
JT I think it is particularly a key word in Peter. He has remarkable ability to deal with language, although not a man, as we would say, of any special education, but he was taken up by the Lord, and the Lord knew what ability he had; he had great ability in language, he was one who could use fine words, expressive words. So here, precious faith, “like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”; and then, “Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord”; and then again, “As his divine power has given to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the knowledge” — let us notice all these words — “of him that has called us by glory and virtue, through which he has given to us the greatest and precious promises, that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust”. So there is a fine set of words here [p. 345] that the brethren do well to notice and use in time as we have opportunity.
CCT Would it be right to say that it is only a man like Peter who had gone through great exercise who is able to speak like this, and use such great words?
JT You want to be a man like that, we all want to be men like that, because it sets an example to us. He is not a man that was specially educated, he was a fisherman, but God took him up nevertheless and he fitted the matter exactly.
CCT So the language of Peter is really assembly language is it not? — preciousness, and so on.
JT I would say without hesitation that Peter’s words are characteristic. That is to say God is not dependent on the colleges for men to bring out the truth. He has taken up men that are not distinguished by great knowledge. But He brings out the men that are suitable to convey the truth at the moment, and that is the reason why he has been carefully selected at this time; and it has been thought if we were short of further words, we might take up Jude because Jude is very like Peter, only Jude deals with apostasy and Peter deals with sin directly. But there is not much difference, apostasy is the worst word to be used, a turning away from things.
JK Does “partakers of divine nature” seem to be the great end in view over against the question of sin that you have been speaking of?
JT And then we have to notice that the divine nature is not simply the nature of divine Persons solely, but certain qualities that believers have, not divine Persons exclusively, but believers have part in the divine nature.
JK I was wondering if that is why it says that “through these ye may become partakers”.
JT That is right, Christians have part in the divine nature. We have to understand what that means. It is not simply the nature of divine Persons as such, but the qualities that believers have by the Spirit.
[p. 346] JWW Is it that we are morally like God?
JT That is very good, morally like God. I am trying to make clear that divine Persons are not necessarily in mind, that the divine nature has become imparted to believers, that is we have part in it because it says so very distinctly, that we might partake of the divine nature, “having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust”.
JWW You have emphasized the idea of these things. Would these things imply that we are in the gain of all that comes to us from the divine side and are morally in accord with it?
JT What has come to us from the divine side we, as believers, have part in. In one sense the divine nature has to be strictly kept to divine Persons, because the divine Persons are the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. They are the only divine Persons that we have any mention of and They are the Persons that have the divine nature exclusively. But then believers becoming partakers of the divine nature are mentioned here, and that has to be understood as has also the difference between that and what only divine Persons by Themselves have.
JTJr That is deity, you mean. We are not partakers of deity.
JT That is right, that is good.
TU Would there be a suggestion in verses 1 to 4 as to the position in the mind of divine Persons for us and then verse 5 to 11 would be requisite in a cumulative way to the end that we be neither idle nor unfruitful?
JT Very good as far as it goes; you are saying what is in the scripture.
TU And then in verse 12, it speaks of our being established in the present truth. Is that not a necessity?
JT To be established in the present truth? Yes.
RWS Peter adds one thing to another as it says in verse 5, “But for this very reason also, using therewith all diligence, in your faith have also virtue, in [p. 347] virtue knowledge, in knowledge temperance, in temperance endurance, in [p. 350] endurance godliness, in godliness brotherly love, in brotherly love love”. Would the way these matters are added one to the other bear upon the way we take on the present truth, the recent matter as to the Holy Spirit viewed objectively, and now the exercise as to the part sisters have in the assembly; does it add up to what we have in our own souls of present truth?
JT What I might venture to say is that no other writer uses this form of presenting the truth, no other writer but Peter, so that we have to deal with it by itself. Peter alone uses this form, using one feature of the truth to express another, and then another, and another and another.
JTJr Is it like a chain? One link running through another.
JT Just so.
ASB The word “existing” in verse 8 has to do with our present circumstances, and then it says abounding, not merely existing, in you.
JT Peter was an ordinary man, a fisherman, not what you call an educated man as men say, but the Lord Jesus took him up, and the language he has is wonderful. No one else is found using it as he does and it is a question of how much we get out of it at this meeting at this time, because it is so full in the use of language all his own. There is no other servant or apostle uses this form that I know of. It is Peter, it is not Paul. Peter speaks very wonderfully of Paul, but we are speaking now of Peter to show what a man like Peter can do and what God can do with him. So that we are all seeking to be available to God if necessary for the unfolding of the truth or the dealing with these things.
JTJr Do you think the personality of Peter comes into what he is saying? He is an unlettered man evidently, he was not a college man as you were saying.
[p. 348] He learnt the thing himself and his own personality comes into his ministry.
JT So the service of God is available to all of us you might say; and now the sisters are coming into it; they also can have to do with it, only of course they are limited under certain statements mentioned by Paul himself.
CCT Is this the outcome of Peters following Christ as the Lord told him in John 21?
JT The Lord said to him several times, “Lovest thou me?”. The Lord challenges him in that way, and then says, “Follow me”.
CCT That is right. That would be the main thought for Peter’s affections, to follow Christ.
JWW Peter uses the word ‘virtue’ here, a very rare word in the New Testament.
JT I had often wondered about that myself. A very fine word is the word ‘virtue’.
JTJr It says of the Lord virtue went out of Him.
JT The Lord says it of Himself.
JWW Does it convey the idea of power?
JT It is virtue, a good English word, and has its own meaning, and it fits in with Peter excellently.
JTJr We have the virtuous woman.
JT Quite so.
Ques Would it indicate the virtue of the Lord?
JT See what the word virtue means, the moral quality.
JWW I think at one time in Detroit you worked on the word, as applying to us as bringing forward the idea of moral courage. Am I right in that?
JT Very good.
WHC I was going to ask about the word ‘diligence’. Three times at least he uses the word diligence in this chapter. You suggested at the first that we should be diligent. At the prayer meeting last night there were exercises that we would have something specific and it is interesting that you should say the first [p. 349] thing this morning that we might have something specific for this city.
JT I do not know that we need to say much more because the actual words contain themselves.
GMW Would the footnote as to knowledge in verse 8 stimulate us as to our individual links with the Lord? It says, ‘personal recognition’. I wondered if that would encourage each one of us, brothers as well as sisters, to strengthen our links with the Lord.
JT Quite.
CAM Speaking of the woman who came to the Lord on the occasion when the Lord said that virtue had gone out of Him, do you not think that we should be marked by the diligence that was seen in that woman? She wanted something to counteract the terrible moral illness working in her.
JT Quite so.
JTJr And it says she could not be hid.
CAM It is remarkable that the Lord singles her out in that way. In an address of yours years ago, in speaking of that woman, you raised the question with us as to whether we had experienced what it was to be alone in a crowd. So that she became intimately acquainted with the Lord in that way.
JT A very remarkable statement that is, alone in the crowd. You are not conscious of the crowd, you are conscious of something else.
TLS Do you think it is of importance that there should always be a reason for whatever we may do (verse 5), seeing that God has always good reasons for what He does, dealing with sin and so on?
JT It says, “For this very reason also, using therewith all diligence, in your faith have also virtue”. So that virtue has a prime place in this scripture. “In virtue knowledge”, so that the recurrence of the word virtue is very remarkable. “In virtue knowledge, in knowledge temperance, in temperance endurance, in endurance godliness, in godliness brotherly love, in brotherly love love: for these things existing and abounding in you make you to be neither idle nor unfruitful as regards the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ; for he with whom these things are not present” — note the negative — “is blind, short-sighted, and has forgotten the purging of his former sins”. It says former sins now.
JK Do we get a picture of this in the woman in the last chapter of Proverbs?
JT The virtuous woman, just so.
JK What she has.
JT Quite so, a very fine consideration. We should read that in the last chapter of Proverbs.
JK Yes, I was just noticing some of the things. It says, “She considereth a field, and acquireth it; of the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. She girdeth her loins with strength, and maketh strong her arms. She perceiveth that her earning is good; her lamp goeth not out by night. She putteth her hands to the distaff, and her hands hold the spindle”, and so on.
JT Certain things that add to a woman, a virtuous woman. It is remarkable.
NB The apostle Paul seems to have in Philippians 4: 8 a very wonderful chain of thoughts similar to what we have in this chapter of 2 Peter; he speaks of what is true and noble, also he uses the word virtue in that section, “if there be any virtue and if any praise, think on these things”.
JT It all fits beautifully, and one feels that we have come here today to get what we are now dealing with because it is so full as to Peter’s way of doing things and how we are reminded that we are not dependent on the colleges or the learning of this world, but on the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is a great power for dealing with things, and of course it is divine power; it is the Spirit of God and is the great power by which things are accomplished at the present time. The power of God is [p. 351] here with His people and is remaining here where the Spirit of God is.
CCT Is it of any importance, that the last link in the chain that was just mentioned (verses 5 - 7) is love? Is there great importance in this thought of love, not only brotherly love but love, as any might seek to rectify what might be in the city?
JT Quite so. There may be something else as well that has to be noted. I would not say that love is specially to be noted; not that I would like to say a word about the brethren in Indianapolis. I am sure there is love among us, but that is not the only thing we are dealing with, but that there may be something amongst us that has been overlooked and that the Lord is calling attention to. Are we challenging our hearts as to whether we are dealing with anything that is contrary or interfering with the work of God here in Indianapolis?
CCT I was wondering if that thought of love would be prominent in dealing with anything on that line.
JT Of course. Love never fails.
JTJr The point is if love is here we are better able to deal with sin.
JT Quite so.
ASB Is that why it says in verse 9, “For he with whom these things are not present”? It is not a beautiful picture, is it? Our brother has referred to Proverbs 31, and the end of verse 10 in our chapter says, “for doing these things ye will never fall”.
JT So that it says, “Wherefore the rather, brethren, use diligence to make your calling and election sure”. Now that is a very fine word because it is not God that is to do this, you are to do it, to make your calling and election sure. “For doing these things ye will never fall”, not ‘never fail’ but “never fall”, that is to say there will be no breakdown. “For thus shall the entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ be richly furnished unto you”. The word is [p. 352] therefore what you can do yourself, not what God can do for you, but what you can do yourself. That is what I see here.
ASB You have been emphasizing that recently, and I wonder at what has been accomplished by divine Persons, but I believe I see more clearly today that in relation to ourselves, while the power is towards us and operating in us, it is a question of what we do ourselves.
JT That is right, what you can do yourself, not what God can do. God can do everything, “I know that thou canst do everything”, Job said to Him (Job 42: 2). But then it is a question of what I can do, what each one of us can do.
Rem Who could speak so impressively as Peter himself? he knew what it was to fall.
JT Quite so. He had fallen.
WHC What you were saying is to have the effect of stirring us up, as Peter says. Moses could say, “As the eagle stirreth up its nest”. Is that the exercise — that you are stirring us up?
JT That is a great point for these meetings — what has been done at Indianapolis, and that is why we selected Peter, and if Peter does not suffice, we will take Jude, because he deals with matters more drastically. It is apostasy, it is a terrible thought.
Ques Is it not remarkable that the Lord takes up a fisherman? He does not say you have to change your occupation, but the persons are going to be changed.
JT Quite so.
JMcK After Peter’s address in Acts 2: 37, 38 in relation to what Israel had done to Christ, “they ... said to Peter ... What shall we do, brethren? And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”.
JT That is just what we are trying to convey. That is what Peter says; he tells them what to do.
JMcK Then it says, “Those then who had accepted his word were baptised; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls”.
JT The great result is the point, three thousand souls, and then five thousand. He made great headway.
JMcK “And they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers”.
JT The whole matter is set out by those words, because Peter at that time was the leading man in the establishment of Christianity, the setting of it up here in the world.
JMcK I thought that was connected with the working out of your own salvation with fear and trembling.
JT It was a very remarkable place Peter had at the beginning. “First ... Peter” is mentioned in the book of Matthew — “first, Simon, who was called Peter”. He is the first apostle at that time. Paul came in later. Peter says, “As our beloved brother Paul also has written to you ... as also in all his epistles”; he says, “things are hard to be understood”. But they have to be understood. There were people who would say, I do not understand, but Peter would say that you have to understand, you are obliged to understand. If the truth is set out you are obliged to know it.
CCT Is that why he uses the word ‘careful’ in verse 12? He says, “Wherefore I will be careful”.
JT There is another word in the note there.
CCT ‘Use diligence’, ‘take care it shall be so’. Would it be the mark of perfection of one who is ministering that he is careful as to what he says?
JT We are dealing with the most precious and greatest things and we are not to deal carelessly with them, but are to be careful, be careful of what we say and to whom we say it too.
TLS Could we speak of this as a priestly approach by Peter in [p. 354] the matter?
JT Well, quite so.
JWW He uses the mind quite effectively, do you not think? Is that the reviving organ for us, the principle that he has in mind is that these things should come into moral expression in the saints. He speaks of their mind and his mind, all active in view of the establishing of what is the present truth.
JT Quite so. I think we must go on now to get all that there is in the chapter, because it is very full.
ASC So that Peter seems to indicate the need of their having it in their power to call to mind these things. And his soul yearned over that matter that it might be formed in them and made available as under the help of the Holy Spirit.
JT He knew that the time would be short and he wanted to make the most of the time he had. And we are very well in that situation now. There is more to be done than can be done, than we are able to do with the instrumentality we have. So he says, “I account it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance, knowing that the putting off of my tabernacle is speedily to take place, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has manifested to me; but I will use diligence”, — notice this, he is doing it himself — “that after my departure ye should have also, at any time, in your power to call to mind these things. For we have not made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, following cleverly imagined fables, but having been eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory:” — think of these wonderful words, how full they are, how rich they are! — “This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight; and this voice we” — emphatic again — “heard uttered from heaven, being with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word made surer”, — notice the word prophetic word — “to which ye do well taking heed (as to a lamp shining in an [p. 355] obscure place) until the day dawn and the morning star arise in your hearts; knowing this first, that the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation, for prophecy was not ever uttered by the will of man, but holy men of God spake under the power of the Holy Spirit”. This is wonderful phraseology that is used by this servant.
TU Would there be any significance in the fact that he himself speaks of the positive use of diligence in view of not only setting out the ministry orally, but setting it out in himself?
JT Quite so.
TU I was asking in view of the fact of Peter’s positive use of the idea of diligence, if it would not be a searching question for all of us as to what we are as regarding ourselves, not just speaking about it but using it.
JT That is the word that is going to run through these meetings — what we can do ourselves, what each one can do.
Ques Would you say a word as to the last verse? It says prophecy was not ever uttered by the will of man but it is by the power of the Spirit, not the will of the Spirit, but the power of the Spirit.
JT What would you like me to say? Cannot you say it? You just say what the meaning of it is.
Rem I know what it is but I cannot express it; I just wondered what it was as to the power of the Spirit as over against the will of man.
JT You have gone to the public schools, you know how they teach, but now that is man’s way, but you have learnt something else since you left the schools, you have learnt something about the Scriptures, have you not, and so you should be able to unfold things from the Scriptures to us now. You are here for that purpose. So tell us now what you think about prophecy never uttered by the will of man. It is only the power of God that can do it.
[p. 356] Rem We cannot say much about the power, it cannot be explained.
JT Quite so, I feel that myself. But it is a question of what can be done here by ourselves today. So it says, “(as to a lamp shining in an obscure place) until the day dawn and the morning star arise in your hearts”. Think of that — in your hearts; it is not arising in God’s heart or in the heavens, but in your heart. “Knowing this first, that the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation”. So that you cannot base everything on one particular word or interpretation. It says, “For prophecy was not ever uttered by the will of man, but holy men of God spake under the power of the Holy Spirit”.
JTJr The word ‘uttered’ in verse 18 is directly from heaven. That is they heard the voice from heaven. And then the word ‘uttered’ in verse 21 is the same word, but now through man. Is it not wonderful that you get God’s direct voice uttered on the mountain, but then later it is through man, in the power of the Spirit?
JT Very good.
NB What application would there be of this to the meeting for ministry?
JT For ministry? It says, “let two or three prophets speak”, but particularly two rather than three. I think we should notice that, not simply three, we can have three but two or three; two first.
NB I suppose the will of man would be excluded there too.
JT It would indeed, but I think the two rather excludes the will of man. If you have three you are apt to go too far, you know.
RWS Would the allusion in verse 20, “No prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation”, bear on the current ministry? Some have quoted 1 Corinthians 14, the matter of women being silent in the assembly and yet over against that, as you have pointed out, there is the word in the [p. 357] great assembly chapter — 1 Corinthians 11 — as to women praying and prophesying.
JT That is one thing that has been on my mind for several weeks as to how these sisters are going to prophesy. The great point is that they are to be covered. But how are they going to do it, how are they going to prophesy? Now what do you say about that? It has been in my mind for months. What is to be done on the tenth chapter of 1 Corinthians? Just read that (1 Corinthians 10:23-33; 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 read). First of all I want to speak about the reference to women there, how negative it is. She is not told to prophesy, she is told to be covered. The point is not prophecy; we have to decide how prophecy can be carried on and prayer, but the point here is the covering. The tenth verse, “Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head on account of the angels”. But when is she to prophesy? She is not to prophesy unless she is covered, that is the point, but then we have to decide eventually where she is to prophesy, whether it is in a hall or a meeting room. Now I would just like the brethren to say what they think about what I have been saying.
JTJr The point you are stressing here in chapter 11 is the covering — the authority that is to be on the woman. She could not do anything until that was there.
JT So it is not so much the fact that she prophesies, but the covering. But the time will come when she must prophesy because it is implied that she must do it, and it is a question of whether they can prophesy in the assembly or how it is to be carried on. I would put it to the brethren as to what they think about this. We have all to come to this — the true meaning of chapters 10 and 11 of 1 Corinthians.
NB In the Old Testament we have Hannah’s prayers, and Deborah’s song, both of those seem to be marked by prophesying.
JT But then we have to come down to Paul, and he comes in later. The Lord gives him a supreme place [p. 358] in regard of the assembly. He has the mystery, that feature of the service of God is in Paul’s hands, and he is looking after it. What I would say and urge on the brethren would be to think of all this in chapters 10 and 11 in 1 Corinthians and how these matters are to happen with the sisters. There has been a great deal clarified for them lately, but this point is not clear as to where the prophesying is to be carried on.
CAM May I raise a question about that verse, “every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered puts her own head to shame”? Would that mean she was praying or prophesying in the presence of men?
JT Well, I am just leaving it open; I am putting it to the brethren as to what they think about it because that has to be settled in all this instruction that we have recently had about chapters 10 and 11 of 1 Corinthians.
JTJr We have noted that Anna did at the temple.
JWW It is said of her that she “spoke of him to all those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem”.
JT That needs to be taken up too, I do not say should be done, I am only asking the brethren to think it over. We have not any more time in this meeting, but there is time for thinking over the matter, how these things are to be met. Scripture deals with certain things and the instruction is not very clear, at least it is not to mg and I would like to think of it and would like the brethren to think of it - how the question is going to be met.
NB Is it of any consequence that in 1 Corinthians 14 prophecy is referred to and in that same chapter it says, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not permitted to them to speak”.
JT But then the prophesying must go on, you see. God does not put things to us that cannot be solved; they can be solved. It is a question of spirituality.
TLS Is the concern first as to the covering?
JT That is what is being dealt with, and we can think over these matters.