SPIRITUAL FORMATION FOR ASSEMBLY SERVICE (5)
SPIRITUAL FORMATION FOR ASSEMBLY SERVICE (5)
JT It is clear that the part of the chapter read involves the conclusion, in the apostle’s mind, of the doctrinal part of the epistle. It therefore reverts back to chapter 2 especially, again recalling what we have had before us as to the crucial side of the subject and the place death has in these chapters. In chapter 3 (including what is said of it in chapter 2) the allusion is to baptism. It is, as it were, what each one of us has had our hand in, for baptism enters into Christianity as a public sign as over against the Passover or circumcision in Israel. Death is spoken of in the second chapter as the state we were in by nature. We were dead, in that sense; not exactly judicially, but as to our state. Then we have burial added, which baptism conveys, and also the thought of resurrection. Romans does not carry the thought of baptism as far as resurrection, but Colossians does. Paul in Colossians is aiming at the saints moving on to heavenly things in view of the service of God, and so it adds the thought of resurrection to the idea of baptism, evidently in order to complete the thought in view of the service of God. We can take the ground of being risen, although resurrection is not final, nor is it basic exactly, but it is in view of ascension. We cannot have Christianity, either in a public or private way, except on the ground of ascension. This chapter leads on to it and, especially in view of the Lord’s supper, we are entitled to take the place of being risen; that is in the sense of being wholly free of the world. The idea of burial is that we are out of sight, but being raised is added, according to the twelfth verse of chapter 2. Then in verse 20 we have a hypothetical thought, which is a previous one to the one we have in chapter 3. It says, “If ye have died with Christ from the elements of the [p. 85] world, why as if alive in the world do ye subject yourselves to ordinances?”. Ordinances have a great place especially in Episcopalian countries. This country has a National Church, and ordinances are almost legalised; they become part of the religious profession of the people. So that the “therefore”, which is sequential in chapter 3, is of prime importance as to the service of God, which must be wholly free from mere ordinances and, however much we might add the thought of ritual to the things that are to be done in the Lord’s supper, there is no thought of it properly. The Lord’s supper should be done with intelligence, of course, and the apostle addresses himself to our intelligence in speaking of it in Corinthians, but it should be done as simply as possible. It is a simple thought involving “simplicity as to the Christ”. So that the less formality there is, save what is warranted in Scripture, the better.
PHH I do not quite follow your reference to “having died” and here “being raised with Christ”. Are you connecting that with a certain preparation of mind, having the Lord’s supper in view?
JT Yes, in view of the latter part of it, I would say. We are not on resurrection ground in partaking of the Lord’s supper itself, but we are entitled to take that place after the memorial, leading on to the heavenly side of things. To complete our position we must refer to Ephesians, which tells us that we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ. I am speaking of what follows the taking of the emblems, included in the Supper, because the Lord’s supper is undoubtedly in the wilderness; it has to be taken in that position.
Ques Does it help at all to see the objective the Lord has before Him? It says in John 13, “Now before the feast of the Passover, Jesus, knowing that ... he should depart out of this world to the Father”. And then a little later on “knowing that ... he came out from God and was going to God”. Then we have His service [p. 86] that His saints may have part with Him, but it seems that that great objective is always in His mind.
JT Well, what is to be said there is that John 14 contemplates His coming to us, which is a matter to be considered in view of the idea of the memorial in the Lord’s supper. He says, “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you”, and we count on that, that the Lord comes to us. It contemplates that He is moving out of heaven. He moves, on the first day of the week, towards the brethren, towards the assembly. I should say properly that He moves toward the assemblies, and that raises the whole question as to whether He is remembered in heaven or whether we have in view that He is near. In Luke 24: 36 we are told that “as they were saying these things, he himself stood in their midst”. It is not said that He came as in John 20, but implies that He was near and ready to manifest Himself as the time for it arrived. He thus moves towards us, as we might properly say now, spiritually. Indeed it is just spiritually now, but still there is an actual movement involving His part on the earth where the sufferings are.
LES Would what you are saying link on with what we were considering on Lord’s day afternoon as to the suffering side connected with the wilderness?
JT Yes, just so. The Lord is viewed, you might say, as He was here. As risen from the dead, He moved here for forty days. But then 1 Corinthians 15 says that He appeared to certain ones, and one of them was Paul. “Last of all”, he says, “he appeared to me also”. So that it must not only involve what He was in the forty days, but also what He is now as in heaven. He takes on these liberties, either spiritually or corporeally, so that He is free to be with us at any time, as He was with Paul. What we are saying now is of the highest importance, because it means that the Lord is free and it avoids our assuming that His position is static or stationary. He is active and from the Colossian point of view especially, because Colossians does not stress ascension. Paul [p. 87] speaks of what might have been known in the early days before He went up, and also what might have been known even after He went up, because we do know from 1 Corinthians 15 that He appeared to certain ones, including Paul.
Ques Would it be right to say that as we come into the position of being raised with Christ following the Supper, the Lord comes to us in that position?
JT I should not like to go so far as to say that it is the resurrection position. It was only a resurrection position as regards Himself in the forty days, and yet He moved about amongst them, not assuming that they were risen, but that they were in ordinary circumstances down here. The chapter we are dealing with contemplates us as risen, but that is an allusion to baptism; that is to say what resurrection means as seen in baptism. That is the ground that we may take in faith, because the faith position is really of the first importance in this epistle. If it be a question of faith, it is the ground we can take, because of the idea of resurrection being involved in baptism.
Rem I was thinking of the resurrection position in regard to ourselves in the light of your remarks about “through faith of the working of God”, having that in our souls. You were suggesting that God is operating in the light of the resurrection of Christ.
JT Well, that would come in properly after the emblems are partaken of, because the Supper includes both the emblems and they both refer to the memorial of Christ. That cannot apply to Him as come amongst us. That is what I understand, because the Lord’s supper is properly in the wilderness and refers to persons, as we are, in flesh and blood, including brothers and sisters.
Ques Would the expression, “Have your mind on the things that are above”, confirm what you are saying?
JT Well, just so. “Not on the things that are on the earth”, which shows that we are on the earth [p. 88] in fact.
Ques Does the Lord come personally or by the Spirit?
JT Well, both these things are true if you take the whole dispensation into account. He came personally to them after He rose. We are told He came personally and we see it in the first chapter of Acts. But then, as we have said, we see it in 1 Corinthians 15. John 14 would contemplate more the spiritual side. When it says, “I am coming to you”, it is left open, and I think it would cover the whole dispensation right down to the present moment. I doubt the wisdom of bringing forward the corporeal side, because there is hardly anything in Scripture to indicate that anyone experienced the Lord’s coming in this sense, although Paul said that He appeared to him, and even later in his service, the Lord actually stood by him and said, “Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome”, Acts 23: 11. But then in saying that, why should we not accept the liberty the Lord takes, in that sense, at any time, if He is pleased to do so? To say that we have not experienced it, will not be enough; it is a question of what liberty the Lord may take, for He is a divine Person.
Ques Are we to take the position of being raised with Christ all the time?
JT Not if we are dealing with the order of the service of God. In introducing the Lord’s supper in 1 Corinthians, Paul does not contemplate that we are risen with Christ. He contemplates us as in flesh and blood condition, and that Christ is absent. When we are eating and drinking, doing our work and so forth, we are simply in ordinary flesh and blood condition, although, of course, in the light of salvation. Therefore the position we are in is not any different from the millennial position, for the millennial position will imply a flesh and blood state among men. What will happen eventually we have to work out from other scriptures, but that will be the millennial condition and it will show [p. 89] what God can do in men as they are, in spite of what Satan has done. Of course, Satan then will be bound. He is not bound now but, at the same time, the Spirit is in us. We have the Spirit now, and the Spirit enables us to move about as men in the flesh. The word “in the flesh” is just a form to show that we are not literally raised, we are in flesh and blood conditions. Then, added to that, we have the thought of the service of God properly. This is not continually going on; it is special, and we are entitled to take the ground of being risen and even ascended according to the state we may be in, not simply theoretically, but actually, for the Spirit of God may support us in such a way that we are conscious that we are with Christ and that we have part with Christ together in a collective sense.
Ques When you speak of the Lord being absent, does that convey the thought that He is in heaven, or that He is not yet in the assembly?
JT Not necessarily in heaven. It may be said in a formal way that He is “gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him”, and that He is “at the right hand of God”; but that does not set aside the fact that He is personally free to do what He pleases.
Rem I was thinking of the end of Matthew, “Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world”.
JT Well, that is true. That is Matthew’s view and he is the only one that says that. He never says the Lord ascended and that is to bring out the great fact of the assembly in its functions down here, the local assembly, and then the general idea of it, that the Lord is with us all the time. It is a very comforting thought. So we have such expressions in Matthew, as “where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matthew 18: 20) meaning it is a [p. 90] local position.
EJM Is that what you had in mind when you spoke earlier about the Lord coming to the assembly, and then added that He comes to the assemblies, that is, the plural?
JT Well, both are true. Matthew 18 contemplates that where two or three are gathered together unto His name there He is in the midst of them. That does not mean the whole assembly; it is a local company, it is two or three. Then in John 14 we have, “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you”. It is left in an indefinite sense, but the fact is there that He is at liberty to do so. Why should we not recognise that? A divine Person can never be limited, but must be free to do what He pleases.
GFG In connection with this matter of the service of God and our being enabled to take our place as being raised with Christ, is that something more than we were considering yesterday in regard of being raised through faith of the working of God?
JT The allusion is to the same thing, only that the latter thought (that is what we are dealing with now) is more definite. In the second chapter we have: “ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him”. That is a statement of a present fact, that we can take that ground. But then, when should we take it? There ought to be intelligence in our movements and in what we do in the service of God. As we come from our houses and sit down together to partake of the Lord’s supper, it is not then the time to introduce that passage in Colossians 2; it belongs to a subsequent part of the service. There are, so to speak, stages, as we often say, from glory to glory. The saints come out of their houses as in freedom from the influence of the world and sit down together. There is glory in that, but it is not the same glory as when we can take the ground of being risen with Christ and seated in the heavenlies in Christ. Why should we not do it? We are addressed as intelligent persons and we are dealing with the service, which is as much a service as that which [p. 91] Moses inaugurated. Thus, when we take on the service, we should know the parts of it and how Scripture refers to it, and to use the right scriptures at any given time.
JSE Does the reference to being raised remove the mind from the sense of suffering?
JT It does. The Lord is viewed as risen and, of course, you might say that the idea of suffering hardly fits; only we are dealing now, as we have said, with those that are addressed as intelligent persons. All these quotations from Scripture, therefore, as used in the service of God, ought to be used intelligently. Usually the service of God is dependent on someone taking part. It is not that we may not all, as it were, be in the Spirit, but there is the idea of someone taking part, because the service of God is largely a matter of speaking. Therefore if a brother is in power in the Spirit, his giving of thanks may lift us all up to a higher level. It is a question of what may be done by our taking part. There is great latitude, in a sense, but there is not to be mere words, but intelligence in what is being done, and why should there not be? The thought of priesthood involves intelligence and we are said to be priests of God and priests of Christ; the scripture says, “the priest’s lips should keep knowledge” (Malachi 2: 7), and a brother ought to bear that in mind, so that what he is saying is according to knowledge.
FCH With regard to intelligence, how would you regard addressing the Lord as being above or on high, after the spiritual side is reached consequent on His coming in?
JT Well, I think if He is apprehended as having come in, it is happier to address Him as in our midst. But still if a brother addresses the Lord as above and as ascended and so on, then it would be a question of known doctrine, which is always right in its place. Mark would say, He is above, at the right hand of God, but Matthew does not say that. John would, of course, say both, but he entitled us to say that the Lord has come in,
and to say, “It is the Lord”. John himself would say that and did say that, and if you are intelligent enough or spiritual enough to discern that the Lord is there, why not speak accordingly? “It is the Lord”. The saints who are in the Spirit will recognise it too.
Ques You have alluded to the words, “I am coming to you”, as marking the whole of the dispensation; is His coming to us as referred to there, as conditions are pleasing to the Lord, of exactly the same character as what is spoken of in Matthew where it says, “where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”?
JT Well, I think we ought to take that by itself. I would not regard that as exactly a scripture to treat of the saints as in assembly. I would take it as it is seen in Matthew; it would be evidently a time of stress and maybe in relation to a disciplinary matter. I would say generally it would be that and there is great need that the Lord should be with us in these matters, so that we should not have to take the ground of doing things twice, which is a very humbling thing.
ECB Where does marital response come in, in relation to what you are speaking of?
JT Well, that is a matter of discernment too, and that is another word to keep before us. David used it in regard to Abigail, and it is a very good word; he said, “Blessed be thy discernment”. In the service of God it is a question of discerning and not simply going on the ground of a theory.
AG In connection with the presence of the Lord amongst us, some have a difficulty as to ending our addresses to the Lord with the words, ‘In Thy name’, as seeming to imply distance. Would you help us as to that?
JT Well, the scripture that is before us tells us, in verse 17, “And everything, whatever ye may do in word or in deed, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him”. What can [p. 93] anybody say about that? The name is there. It might be said, Well, that is ordinary; but still, there it is: “everything, whatever ye may do in word or in deed”.
EG Would you say we are no more entitled to address the Lord Jesus either in prayer or thanksgiving and end up just with “Amen” than we are the Father? We must bring in His name because of what we are.
JT Well, quite.
LES Have you not stressed that the mediatorial position and service of the Lord is to be held by us at all times?
JT I would say that generally. There is no doubt that the term in the name has a military bearing and I am speaking of that here because of the idea of combat in this epistle. We have to recognise the enemy and what he might do at any time; but then the name has power in it. Thus we have the expression “No one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit”, 1 Corinthians 12: 3. That would be a military thought too; there is power in the words. It is a great matter, in assembly position, that there should be power in all that is said and done, so that the enemy has no place.
PL Does the Name attach to His fame?
JT It does; quite so. The word “Name” in the Old Testament was used by itself. Jehovah, of course, was the One spoken of, but it was “the Name”. One was said to have blasphemed “the Name” (see Leviticus 24: 11). That is the name of God; and, of course, the name of God must enter into the name of Jesus, for it means “Jehovah the Saviour”.
WSS Does Ephesians 5: 20 help in relation to what is before us, “giving thanks at all times for all things to him who is God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ”?
JT Just so. Of course, we would have to make allowance in the assembly where the Lord’s supper is only in view, because it is the Lord’s supper; the name would then be used in [p. 94] that sense.
WSS Do we ever reach a point when we would not say, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ?
JT Well, that actual phrase would not be used if it were the Lord’s supper, for we are then speaking to the Lord Himself, but the use of His Name is then right and in order. The time now will hardly suffice for us to go further with this point, although I am assured that it is most important.
PHH Several have been asking about the matter of sufferings and in the minds of some the occasion of the Lord’s supper is one at which there is liberty to mention the sufferings of atonement. I gather that that is not in your mind in relation to the Supper?
JT No; it is not in my mind. What is in mind is more centred in what is said by the Lord to Saul of Tarsus, “Why persecutest thou me?”. Those are the Lord’s own words, and He is not speaking there as in heaven; He has come down to where Saul was, and deals with him. It was a great matter in the Lord’s mind, because He is taking on Saul. He is going to make him His chief servant, but He speaks first of what he was doing as persecuting. Of course, He is alluding to the fact that he was persecuting the saints, showing that the saints are bound up with Christ in that sense.
EuR When it says “the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up”, would not that involve that He was in the midst of sufferings and treachery?
JT Just so. That is one of the first things we have, you might say, in regard of the Lord’s supper.
PHH So that it is more sufferings in connection with the testimonial position.
JT Quite so. That is a good word for it.
LES It is very much similar to the position of the three men in Daniel’s day, and One like the Son of God being discerned as in their midst.
JT Very good. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego are mentioned about thirteen times in the chapter, showing what a place they had with God at that time,
and how one “like the Son of God” was seen there with them.
Ques The position of the assembly as viewed in Corinthians does not go beyond the suffering position down here in testimony, does it?
JT I would say that.
PL So that His presence assures solace in every church grief.
JT Quite so. All of what we are saying now is of the utmost importance in the sense of comfort. We do need comfort for the world is just turned upside down. Men are at their wits’ end to know what to do, but the Lord would have us to be restful, and therefore He says, “I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you”. What we have been saying involves that the Lord is near. What does that mean? It is not simply that He is at our side; He is just near, and you can, as it were, call on Him. The Lord is near in the sense of help.
Ques Would the word that Joseph says to his brethren in Genesis 45 be in your mind, “Behold, your eyes see, and the eyes of my brother Benjamin, that it is my mouth which speaks to you”? And then afterwards it says that “his brethren talked with him”.
JT That would fit rightly.
Now, in view of the time at our disposal, we must proceed to what follows. In the first verse of chapter 3, we have the sequential idea: “If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above”, the word heaven is not used there, it is above, “where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God: have your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth; for ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God”. So that it is a question now of moving on; not exactly in the service of God, although that may come into it, but moving on in our souls, hence the thought of the word seek: “Seek the things which are above”. In Colossians the tendency is to lead upwards. It is not a millennial thought; it is more than [p. 96] the millennial thought in Colossians, it is an assembly thought that is in mind. Although we are still viewed as literally on earth the apostle wants to lift us up, and so he uses the word raised. The word “If therefore ye have been raised” refers to baptism; he is referring indeed to what the second chapter enlarges upon, and using it to lift us up, to make us heavenly minded, or as above.
HAH Is the thought of above, in view of power in the service?
JT Well, it would be; but more dignity, I would say. It is in view of our being lifted on to heavenly ground. The word ‘above’, of course, is very striking. It is so forceful as disconnecting our minds from the earth, and that raises the question of the expanse, as we have already had it. The expanse is a very wide thought, reaching down to the earth, with the waters above the expanse and the waters under it. The position is that we are in the expanse, in that sense, and it is a question of how the operations can proceed unhindered.
WC Would the daughters of Zelophehad illustrate the idea of being heavenly minded and typify that element in the assembly that appreciates the inheritance?
JT The inheritance enters into what we are talking about, the Spirit of God being the earnest of it.
Ques In rejecting the expression, ‘the resurrection platform’, have you in mind that true assembly relationships are in ascension, and that we should always have that as our objective?
JT Well, that is good. I would say that. The Lord went to the right hand of God, which is a definite matter, and He can be there whenever He wishes to be and operate from there. He does operate from there, in fact He has gone beyond all heavens, we are told, and that should be in our minds too. Therefore the Lord is in liberty, and we cannot limit the Lord; we cannot limit a divine Person. It is a question of what He pleases to do, because it is a question of God at all times.
JSE Would “the things that are above” which we seek be connected with the treasures of wisdom and knowledge?
JT Well, they are morally above. That is, they are above what this world is going on with. The assembly’s position is heaven, and the thought is to bring the saints, as forming it, into a spiritual state of things. The teaching of Colossians is to enable us to take heavenly ground, that is to take ground above what the world is going on with.
JHT Would the expression, “three men going up to God” (1 Samuel 10: 3), cover what you are saying? They had one purpose before them. They were heavenly minded.
JT Quite so. That links us on with our ministry meetings for it is a question of God.
Ques Does the expression “your life is hid with the Christ in God” amplify what you have said?
JT Well, I think it is in keeping with the idea of Colossians, where it says, “in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge”. It is the idea of a covering, I think; we are not letting the natural mind into it. It might be linked on with the headship of Christ in 1 Corinthians where we have the idea of a covering, but the word hid would mean that they are not exposed to the devil. That implies that the Spirit is here and that there is power to conceal things and to maintain the idea of mystery, which is a great matter as regards the assembly and this dispensation.
Ques Would you say a word as to the assembly’s place in relation to the expanse? Is the assembly’s true place above the expanse?
JT He has “raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”. The word heavenlies is in Ephesians, of course, and it is a question really of what is meant, and whether that is to be regarded as [p. 98] in the expanse.
JSE Does the word above in our chapter help in that connection?
JT Well, I think that is right. The word ‘above’ is in keeping with what we have often spoken of: “Jerusalem above, ... which is our mother”. It is the moral elevation she is in. The word used in ordinary worldly affairs means that some people are high up and the like. In the things of God we have the same idea, only this involves our having the Spirit, and the position that Christ has literally. Christ has literally gone above, He is above all principality and power; He has gone beyond all the heavens. The thought of above is greatly intensified when we think of Christ personally. Well, then, the thing is for us to apply the idea of being above to ourselves, and then to the assembly’s position, because her position is to be the nearest to Deity of all the families. Thus we get, for instance, “the Spirit and the bride say, Come”, which shows how near the bride or the assembly is to divine Persons, or to the Deity; how near her place is.
JSE You have referred to the invasion by the enemy; are we let into the secret in this chapter that there are things that are uncapturable on that line, things that remain intact?
JT I would say that. The primal thought of the assembly is that it is uncapturable. That is, “Hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”, Matthew 16: 18. So it is that John’s epistle would show in an abstract sense that as Christ is, so are we in this world, without going up. It shows the application of power in us, in an abstract sense.
EuR Do the upper springs given to Achsah involve power in our souls enabling us to reach these higher levels?
JT Quite so. They are the upper and the nether springs. There may be a comparison with what we call the expanse in Genesis 1: 7, because there the waters also are in two places. The upper springs would be the [p. 99] Spirit viewed as in relation to heavenly things in Ephesians, but I suppose the nether would be Romans and perhaps Colossians too. It would be what the Spirit is, in operation down here, in view of our ascension and our part in the assembly.
Now to come on to the idea of the new man and the old man. These two thoughts are in the verses beginning with verse 5 down to the end of verse 11.
“Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth, fornication, uncleanness, vile passions, evil lust, and unbridled desire, which is idolatry. On account of which things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. In which ye also once walked when ye lived in these things. But now, put off, ye also, all these things, wrath, anger, malice, blasphemy, vile language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, having put off the old man with his deeds, and having put on the new, renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him; wherein there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is everything, and in all”. So that it is a question now of the new man. It is not so much the question of above, of heavenly places, but the new man; that is, another man replacing what is here. There is only one; one of the new and one of the old; and it is of great importance because we are dealing now with a world that is either Canaanitish or Egyptian. The Canaanitish side is that which might invade the truth of Christianity. The Egyptian refers to the world of the flesh. The idea of what is Egyptian, as entering into the old man, is to be noted. It shows what nature may be, what the earth may be or the world may be, in a general sense, as for instance, in Asia or in Africa, where neither Judaism nor Christianity has had any influence. It is just the naked thought of the world, of the flesh in man, without any amelioration. On the other hand, if we are dealing with what we may speak of now as Canaanitish things, it is important to note that the “old man” enters into these also; there would be then an allusion to what Christianity has done, what Judaism has done too in a public sense, but especially Christianity. It is Christendom, the world as it is, but as affected by the truth of Christianity, yet the old man is in it, as much as in the Egyptian, and it is specially the truth of Colossians and Ephesians, indeed the truth generally, that delivers us from these features of the old man.
LES Would that be in Abraham’s mind in Genesis 24 when he told his servant not to take a wife for his son of the daughters of the Canaanites?
JT Quite so. They would, I think, represent the old man, but when we come to the typical teaching, it is not in Genesis, but in Leviticus. The typical idea of the old and new man is in Leviticus, and Leviticus is meant for Christianity. It is meant for us, because “whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning”. It is for us to see whether we are dealing with Canaanitish things, that is to say, things now that they are affected by Christianity, or whether we are dealing with Egyptian things, which would just mean nature as it is without any trammels, without anything to control it. We have both things to deal with.
Ques Would it be right to say that the first group of evil things are those which are indigenous to a fallen nature, and the second group are habits which might be acquired by us?
JT The Canaanitish side and the Egyptian side are very near to each other now, if we take the world as it is in Britain or in America. In America, specially, it is as much Egyptian as it is Canaanitish. In Britain it may be more Canaanitish, because of the influence of Christianity, but there is not much to say as to the actual features in either group. The worst things, I would say, are the things that are found in Asia, the terrible wickedness of Asia. There polygamy is unrestrained and all that goes with it, and the ancient things have been carried [p. 101] down, you might say, from the time of the flood. Man unrestrained is there. Of course, that enables us to see what we were delivered out of, because Christianity delivers out of both, whether it be Canaanitish or Egyptian. It is a question of the gospel. Thus when we come to the 12th verse it says, “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, long-suffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any should have a complaint against any; even as the Christ has forgiven you, so also do ye. And to all these add love, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of Christ preside in your hearts, to which also ye have been called in one body, and be thankful”. That is the new man applied fully. The word new in the previous passage, according to the footnote, means young or fresh. That is to say, what is fresh in the youth, and those who recognise the Spirit and walk in the Spirit, there is peculiar freshness in what God has thus wrought in young people. Of course, an old person is in it too, but the idea of youthfulness is to be noted, and it is very precious that it can be taken account of in Christianity, in the new man.
PHH Do you think Elisha taking up the mantle of Elijah, that is the man who is above, and using the mantle, would illustrate these thoughts?
JT Very good. He discarded the other, you mean?
PHH Yes, it says, “he took hold of his own garments and rent them ... And he took up the mantle of Elijah which fell from him”, as if to convey that the mantle remained here.
JT Quite so. Hence the position in Elisha is carried on thus. It is, you might say, the new man. He has come down, in that sense, from above and all these qualities described in verses 12 to 15 belong to that realm.
PL So that the traits of the heavenly man are now to be maintained in unity in a corporate way amongst [p. 102] us?
JT Quite so; that is good, especially if we can get them in young people, young men and young women. How great a thing it is to get them, for they are very, very rare!
EuR Is that what is involved in the expression, “Christ is everything, and in all”?
JT Just so. The word there refers to what He is to us, in the new man. If you speak to a young Christian about Christ, well, he might say, Christ is everything to me, and if it is shown that He is everything, and no other thought is in the mind, that is an immense thing. It is a glorious thing to get a young person to whom Christ is everything, and in all. So we have here in verse 10, “having put on the new, renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him”; (That, of course, would be Christ),. “wherein there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is everything, and in all”. Well, that must be in persons; that is to say these qualities of Christ, known down here, must be in persons.
WH Then the persons themselves are addressed, are they not, in verse 12, in the same language by which Christ was addressed, “the elect of God, holy and beloved”?
JT Just so. The sequential thought thus comes in that verse, “Put on therefore as the elect of God”. The doctrine of the new man, or what we may call the abstract thought of it, is more in the previous paragraph, but from the twelfth verse down to the fifteenth verse we have the actual concrete thought that the apostle is aiming at. It is that these precious traits should be seen in the young and in all of us.
LOL Does the Lord anticipate this new man in Luke 10 in relation to the man who went down from Jerusalem to Jericho? This man was stripped of his garment and left by the side of the road, but the Lord typically comes in and supplies him with [p. 103] everything he needs on the line of compassion, long-suffering, and meekness.
JT Well, I would say that. There can be no doubt that the Lord had in mind Mary and Martha, especially that Mary had “chosen the good part”, as it says in that chapter. All these features of the new man would indicate one who is chosen, corresponding to Christ, “the elect of God”. It is a question of choice and what we are taking on, both as to garb and all else. It says of Mary, “the good part, the which shall not be taken from her”.
Ques Does the fact that full knowledge is the first feature of the new man mentioned here, bear on the epistle particularly, and link with the good part as seen in Mary? I was thinking of human learning and the necessity of setting aside philosophy and vain deceit and so on.
JT Quite so. The doctrine or abstract thought of it, as we were saying, is in that passage you quoted, “having put on the new, renewed into full knowledge”, the word “putting on” here would be our profession, I would think; what we accept as truth in Christianity. But then the next paragraph, verses 12 - 15, gives the concrete thought. “Put on therefore”, it is a sequence to what he has been saying. We are regarded as the elect of God, which is not in the previous passage, as far as I see, “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of compassion”, and so on. The putting on is not simply abstract, it is practical, it is concrete, so that one puts on these things, and learns to put them on. It may take years to learn to put them on fully, but you have that in your mind, for that is the divine idea. Then the elect of God, being applied to Christ Himself, is abstractly applied to us too, so that we are spoken of thus. The saints are the elect of God, everyone of us is elected and has that character in the mind of God.
PL Is it what is distinctive in incorruptibility in the presence of all that is [p. 104] so corrupted?
JT Quite so. What God has for Himself, in His own elect.
AJM Would the boy Samuel illustrate this? It says, “Samuel ministered before Jehovah ... girded with a linen ephod. And his mother made him a little coat, and brought it to him from year to year”, 1 Samuel 2: 18, 19. Has that any bearing on the matter?
JT I think it has, because Jehovah made him a confidant as to His concern about the condition of the priesthood. It is a very remarkable thing that Jehovah should take on a young boy like that, for he was still very young, as a confidant to tell him about the old priest and especially his sons who were corrupt. The old man was there in those sons.
T There are some among us who have some reservations regarding young ones being received into fellowship when only round about the age of twelve. Could you tell us anything about that?
JT I have no difficulty about young people coming into fellowship at that age. It is a question of where they are in their souls. I am always encouraged in the fact that the Lord was twelve when He said, “Wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?”, Luke 2: 49. That is intended to be a model for us as to youth.
WC Do you think that is about the right age?
JT I think it is recognised as being used of the Lord Himself.
Ques Would we have a concrete example of “the new man” in the little maid in the household of Naaman? Even in captivity she refused to be held back.
JT Well, Joseph is a very good example of a young man, an incorruptible young man. He would not hearken to the seductive person that was seeking to corrupt him.
LH Would verses 12 to 17 of our chapter represent what is substantial in the saints in line with what was suggested at [p. 105] the beginning?
JT That is right. The new man is one idea involving all these qualities.
Ques Referring to the expression “the image of him that has created him”, is it that the Lord puts His own impress on the saints?
JT It is a remarkable thing that the creative thought is here. As Adam was created, so here it is a creation, and that brings us into a very important line of thought.
AG Would “bowels of compassion” refer to what is inward and represent a normal spiritual function, valuable, in days of increasing difficulty, amongst the saints?
JT Quite so. It is needed just now, there is so much illness and suffering of every kind. Hence the need for putting on what we get in verse 14, “to all these add love, which is the bond of perfectness”. If we want to get the thing perfectly, love is the bond of it.
COB Is, “the peace of Christ” the ultimate, as coming after love?
JT Quite. It is an additional thought, I would say. “And let the peace of Christ preside in your hearts”. It is remarkable that it has its full place in the heart, “the peace of Christ preside in your hearts, to which also ye have been called in one body, and be thankful”. The full thought of the assembly is in mind, as to the presiding power of the peace of Christ being there.
Rem There does not seem to be any limit to the idea of forgiving one another.
JT Quite so. Because is according to the measure of Christ.