DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM (2)
[p. 217] DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM (2)
JT Our subject at this reading is ‘Children of God’. The subject is wide as touching us in so many points. There is a further thought connected with it — the children of Christ — that will come up in another reading. We shall need two readings on the children of God. The suggestion is now that in dealing with the subject we should begin with what is basic, and then follow it on in the second half of the meeting with what is said to be granted to us as a right: God has given us the right to take the place of children of God. If we have these two features this afternoon it is thought we should have John’s epistle later on the same subject, and perhaps Philippians. But now we should touch on what is basic, not only as to our subject but as to the work of God generally. It is a question of being born of the Spirit, born again. The word ‘born anew’ better gives the sense. It is sometimes assumed that new birth implies the full thought of redemption, but that is not so. It is the full thought in connection with birth, of being born anew, without which no one shall see the kingdom of God. The second scripture is the full thought of christianity among believers who have the title to take the place of children of God before the universe: “born, not of blood, nor of flesh’s will, nor of man’s will, but of God” John 1:13.
FW Alluding to what we had this morning as to sons by adoption, according to Paul, would you say this matter of children here implies more the divine nature — born of God?
JT “The divine nature” — although a term used only by Peter — really refers to the same thing as this, that you are born anew. Later, as to being [p. 218] sons of God, you have a more defined thought that is not used in the full sense by any but Paul, although used by John in a limited way. Paul alone has the thought of sonship in this way; it does not come into John’s gospel, and in the book of Revelation it comes in only in a characteristic sense. What comes into John is this great thought of being born anew, taking the title of being children of God as to the fact connected with our birth — “who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh’s will, nor of man’s will, but of God” John 1:13. New birth is referred to more as an action of the Spirit.
HB “But Jesus himself did not trust himself to them, because he knew all men, and that he had not need that any should testify of man, for himself knew what was in man” John 2:25. Does that underlie it?
JT Quite so. Ordinary birth does not count at all, it is of no value. “Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God” John 3:3. Whatever there may be otherwise, he does not even see it.
PL “But there was a man” John 3:1; is that in contrast?
JT The fact is that Nicodemus was the subject of the work of God in the sense of new birth or he could not have spoken as he did. He was a man born anew, although subsequent history shows he did not get on too well; but there is the fact that he was actually born anew, I believe.
AR What is the difference between “Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God” John 3:3, and “Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” John 3:5?
JT Well, we have to distinguish between the ‘seeing’ and the ‘entering into’. The first is just simply that a man is born anew; the second, that he is born of water and of Spirit. Whatever the word “water” may mean — possibly baptism — “of Spirit” is associated with it. A man born of water and of Spirit enters into the kingdom of God, enjoying it [p. 219] and reaping the benefits of it. The second scripture shows the benefits which are available to us: those who “have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh’s will, nor of man’s will, but of God” John 1:13, it is not the Spirit there, but the will of God.
LK What is suggested in seeing?
JT The word itself indicates what is suggested. It refers back to Numbers, to a man with opened eyes, Balaam. He represents the idea of spiritual eyesight, and John, of course, is fully in keeping with it; it depends on the new birth, the total necessity for new birth. As in the first verse we read, whatever we may be in the world, whatever we have, is of no value; all depends upon being born anew.
WL Are these sovereign divine operations, the matter of being born anew and born of water and of Spirit?
JT “Born anew” is the sovereign action of the Spirit, especially so. The Lord says to Nicodemus: “Except any one be born anew” John 3:3, and again, “Except any one be born of water and of Spirit”, John 3:5, as though the great thought suggested is born anew in time.
HB There is peculiar force in “Verily, verily, I say unto thee” John 3:3 to one in that position religiously.
JT That is a phrase common to John; it is used twenty-four times in his gospel. It is simply the idea of verity in the truth, dealing with the truth and only the truth.
ANW The basic matter is in what the Lord says in verse 6: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” John 3:6. The neuter idea indicates what is basic rather than what is personal, does it not?
JT You mean it describes what the thing is — the product?
ANW “That which”, I thought, suggested fibre.
JT The thing regarded as product of the action is called “spirit” and is a neuter thought, not a [p. 220] personal thought. But let us look at this wonderful matter of new birth before us. It is a question of the Lord speaking here in this basic way, and so there is something for God; otherwise there would be nothing.
RWS Would this promote love for the Spirit, our looking back and realising that our first link with divine Persons stands related to the Holy Spirit?
JT It is a question of basic relations with the work of God; there is nothing at all apart from new birth, and that transaction is by the Holy Spirit’s action.
PL Would not Ezekiel 36:25 - 27 run parallel with what was said to Nicodemus? “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your uncleannesses and from all your idols will I cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you”. Is there not in that the majesty of God’s sovereign will in operating from itself?
JT The word dealing with Nicodemus alludes to that scripture; he was a teacher of Israel who ought to have known the truth. Teachers are needed, and those who teach should know how to teach, and what there is to teach. It is not a question of going up to heaven; it is a matter of here on earth, a basic thing, the work of the Spirit.
JP Is that what Elihu had before him when he said, “The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life”, Job 33:4?
JT That is what Elihu had in mind, a man that understood how to wait for his opportunity before he said anything, an excellent example for us! So we might say Elihu had new birth in mind; not that he would call it that, but that truth was involved.
JTJr “That which is born of the flesh is flesh” John 3:6 — does that involve the whole period since time began — the question of the flesh?
JT What is the outcome of man is man. Man as a creation is relatively recent; there were many things before man, and even beings such as angels before him. But what is alluded to here refers to man, and all that came out from him from Adam onwards, is worthless; it needs a new work of God entirely, and that new work is called ‘new birth’ — being “born anew” — born throughout the man’s whole being. That is what is meant.
JTJr You are enabled to take such a view as that of the flesh in which you have been born.
JT That is what the Spirit of God can do for us, enabling us to name things in this great basic matter of new birth.
JRH It is said of Man: “My Spirit shall not always plead with Man”, Genesis 6:3.
JT That refers to the Holy Spirit; He would not always plead; just for one hundred and twenty years in God’s long suffering He would have to say to Man.
WL Would new birth help us to look behind a man’s outward appearance to see something of God?
JT What do you see? It is a question the brethren do well to look into: what do you see? It is a question for ourselves. What do we see in what we are talking about, in what we are saying as to this thought of new birth?
RWS Nicodemus did not see much because he was really an unbeliever according to his remarks in John 3:4: “How can a man be born being old? can he enter a second time into the womb of his mother and be born?”
JT I would say from his first remarks that he might appear an unbeliever; yet he is different from the rest and the Lord had some confidence in him [p. 222] and so speaks with him, is found in conversation with him. The Lord says: “Verily, verily”; it is a question of the truth. John is dealing with the truth basically and we must believe what he is saying. “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” John 3:5. Now you said something about an unbeliever?
RWS The Lord says to him in John 3:12: “If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?”
JT Well, that is true in a certain sense; but at the same time the Lord is not exactly dealing with Nicodemus but with the general principle of ignorance of something they should have known — a teacher in Israel and ignorant of it. But still at the beginning of the chapter there is something in the man, God had done something in him; and he is regarded as genuine in the end of John.
ANW Is the main issue in the third chapter with the individual, whereas in the first chapter it is with the family?
JT That is good. This third chapter is basic. Some use the term ‘born again’ to mean conversion, but it is not conversion. It is a work God has begun in a man and of such it is said that they can see the kingdom of God. The Lord gives him credit for seeing it He does not progress very well, partly because there are certain dark spots; but the work of the Spirit is obviously there in him.
JT We might speak about Nathanael in chapter 1: he was a quick learner whereas Nicodemus was a slow learner. But we are thankful that he is a learner at all though we would rather have [p. 223] quick learners.
ABP In Acts 13:7 we read of “Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man”. Would he be a man in whom the Spirit of God was operating?
JT “An intelligent man”, fitting in with Acts 13.
JRH With Cornelius there was a work of God, but yet he sent to hear words by which they should be saved.
JT Quite so, and he did hear and he was saved, because the Spirit of God came down without reserve. The Spirit of God came down upon Cornelius and his company, showing the work of God that was there to be taken account of.
JRH In the case of Cornelius there had been a very bright work previously, and yet he was not saved.
JT But the Spirit came upon them without being solicited — a very fine thought! While Peter was speaking these words the Spirit comes upon them because they are fit vessels for the reception of the Spirit. In this transaction of God in John 3, Nicodemus is not yet a fit vessel for the Spirit, he needs the knowledge of the Spirit The Spirit lays the basis in the soul upon which He can move and take possession in a public way.
JT The basic matter is there that God can speak of with a view to the assembly.
JRH The Holy Spirit cannot come upon anyone that is not born anew.
JT The Spirit is given on the ground of faith, faith and the knowledge of redemption. It is a redeemed person that receives the Spirit. The anointing of the Spirit and the sealing of the Spirit and the love of God shed abroad in the heart — these are things that follow the knowledge of redemption in a man’s soul, but all are based on new birth. There might be much outwardly, but without it there [p. 224] is really nothing.
ANW It is remarkable in Acts 10 that Cornelius’ prayers and alms go up to heaven.
JT He had audience in heaven. A gentile, and his prayers ascended before God. God was taking account of this remarkable man in his alms and prayers.
RWS Is that where one value of our meetings lies? Gospel meetings and prayer meetings where the children are — these are favourable places for the wind to blow.
JT “The wind blows where it will” John 3:8. We do not have many sinners come into our gospel meetings, but the wind is blowing; it is evident that it is blowing. We are encouraged to keep praying for the gospel, that the wind should blow, and that some work may be done in our children and in others.
AR The blowing in Acts 2 is said to be as of hard breathing.
JT It was the Spirit of God coming down, coming out of heaven. We want to see in these allusions the wonderfulness of what happened at that particular time.
AR We are to understand the value of distinguishing. The Spirit sat upon each of them. He was not only in them, but He sat upon them, indisputable evidence of His presence.
JT Then again with the Lord Himself, the Spirit came bodily upon Him. The word “bodily” is used. And as you mention, on the occasion in Acts 2 the Spirit came as they were gathered together and sat upon each one of them. Each one was taken hold of by the Spirit.
JP What is the difference between new birth and putting on the new man?
JT Putting on the new man is much later practically in soul history. It would in fact require redemption and be involved in the work of God.
The word ‘new’ is used again, the thing is fresh and new.
WB Why does the Lord bring in the thought of the brazen serpent?
JT To continue the work involved: “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that every one who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal” John 3:14. That is connected with Numbers. So that everyone that believes should have eternal life.
FKC Does new birth link at all with our children? They are positionally in the same system in which we move in divine things. A love for Christ may be apparent even with our children.
JT It is a question of the work of God. God is love and if He is working there is some evidence of love, and we therefore look for it in our children and we are thankful to see it. But where are they to see it, if not in the parents or in the brethren?
ANW What is the bearing of seeing the kingdom of God?
JT The features of the kingdom are “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit” Romans 14:17. We look for something like that in our children, and where are they in turn to see that but in the brothers and sisters as they come to the meetings? The thing is to be seen, and it is a question of a person having eyes to see the kingdom.
TS Is there any suggestion here of the authority of the Spirit?
JT The transaction is His. It is a question of what He is doing, “the wind blows where it will” John 3:8, an allusion to the Spirit as coming.
PL One has been wondering about the Spirit’s own sovereign acting. The Spirit has His own proper place in divine things in the economy.
JT That is the thing, what the Spirit of God is bringing to our attention as to [p. 226] Himself.
PL I wondered if His work from His initial activities down to where “the Spirit and the bride say, Come” Revelation 22:17, covers the whole period of the Spirit’s activities?
JT Only that we must remember that it is the Lord Himself who comes for us. The Spirit does not take us to heaven nor come for us.
JTJr Nicodemus would allude to certain teachers who would acquire all this knowledge and teach it without getting it into their own souls.
JT That is what the Lord is remarking on: “Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!” John 3:10 — Nicodemus, a leading teacher in Israel — ‘the’ teacher. Is there something wanting in him? That is the question. Or in New York, or elsewhere, with anyone leading in the things of God, is there anything wanting in us? That is what the Lord is making much of here: “Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!”
AR “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” John 3:6. We are to keep the flesh entirely outside of our meetings.
JT That is the thing, if we are able to do it, able to use the Holy Spirit. It is a question of doing things by Him. He does things of Himself as well. In Romans 8 the Spirit does things, but the blessed Spirit is available to us and we do things by Him.
GAS Would He assist us in effective teaching?
JT That is the point the Lord is making here. He is dealing with the teacher of Israel, He is reasoning with him and helping him while he is learning.
SJH The thing in our meetings is to recognise and make room for what is spiritual, not of the flesh and nature, and earthy.
JT The Spirit loves to do things by others, persons who are fitted for it. If He can get vessels He loves to use them.
[p. 227] SJH Balaam was not born anew, was he?
JT No indeed. He says, “I shall see him, but not now; I shall behold him, but not nigh”, Numbers 24:17. He was not saved, but still, when the Lord does things to bring out the truth He can use whomsoever He wishes in His sovereign ways. If He wishes to go through He will make a way. It is very remarkable what God can do.
PL Using even the ass.
ABP With young children wishing to break bread, should there not be seen more than just the evidence of new birth? Should there not be seen the evidence of indwelling by the Spirit?
JT I would say that. God is pleased to help us with our children; “The father to the children shall make known thy truth” Isaiah 38:19.
AR “Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?” Acts 19:2. Is not that a good question for all?
JT Not. ‘Are you sealed by Him?’ but, ‘Have you received Him?’ The Holy Spirit is available; “how much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” Luke 11:13.
JTJr In John 7:50 Nicodemus gives the Pharisees counsel: “Nicodemus says to them (being one of themselves)” but what he says is without weight. So that he is not a good example of a person born anew although there is something in him.
AR In chapter 19 he brings what is very weighty — one hundred pounds of myrrh and aloes.
Ques What is meant by “born of water and of Spirit” John 3:5?
JT “Born of water” may allude to the question of baptism. “Born of Spirit” is the fruit of the action of the Spirit.
JJ Does quickening underlie this?
JT Quickening goes further than being born anew. The Spirit quickens, and the Father quickens [p. 228] and the Lord quickens too, so that it is the full thought that we are dealing with. The Spirit quickens whom He will; it means the full thought. In other words the person who is quickened is made to live. But all that is further on than new birth.
JJ Would this chapter help us who are here, teachers and learners, to see that taking on this truth would add to us spiritually?
JT And we are added to the assembly: “the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved”, Acts 2:41. The Lord added something to the assembly, but still, it is by the Spirit we are added. The Spirit of God is dealing with the assembly as constituted; as it was in the mind of God before the world was. And as we have results from the ministry it is so that the assembly should be completed. We are looking for perfection, that is what we are seeking.
Ques Was the man in John 9 a quick learner? He says, “I see”. Basically there was a work in his soul.
JT He can be put alongside Nathanael and other persons mentioned in John’s gospel such as Mary of Bethany. John selects certain persons to be used throughout his gospel, and at the end of it he says: “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written” John 21:25. He wants us to understand the magnitude and greatness of the work of God.
AMacD Is there not a lesson for us in the service of one like Peter, that as he was speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon all those that heard?
JT While Peter was speaking — a remarkable thing! Showing how urgent the Spirit is to take charge of the work of God.
Now we come to John 1:11: “He came to his own, and his own received him not; but as many as [p. 229] received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God”. That word “right” has a special meaning, they have a “right” to take that place, the place of children of God. God has given to those who receive Christ the right to take the place of children of God. These are not simply persons born again but it is the full thought; they are persons who are to be designated children of God. There is much to come out in our next reading on 1 John, but what we have here is simply the right given to certain, those who have received Christ; He has given them the right to take the place of the children of God; they are publicly owned as belonging to the family of God.
AR This flows from chapter 3, does it not?
JT I think it does, as God Himself brings out just what He is doing in its fulness; that is fulness in the sense that as many as received Christ can have that right.
ASB In chapter 3 it is any one of us, but here it is as many as,
JT As many as received Him — none left out.
SJH Nicodemus had the right but did not take it up.
JT We must not be too hard on Nicodemus. He is a slow learner, but many of us are slow learners, and there is a great deal to learn and much ground to be covered. Nicodemus moved slowly in the truth but one hundred pounds’ weight of spices is something!
PL “His own received him not” John 1:11 — would that be in contrast to the children of God, God making a provision for Christ in the presence of the generation that refused Him?
JT The Jews generally did not receive Him. I believe, as Matthew shows, that there was plenty of space for the Jews at the beginning to take up the truth. As Paul says, “It was necessary that the word [p. 230] of God should be first spoken to you; but, since ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the nations”, Acts 13:46. God gives this right of children to those who receive Christ; not simply believers on the doctrine, or receivers of the doctrine, but those who receive Him. “But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God” John 1:12.
PL In the presence of the apostasy of the Jews God reserves the right to act sovereignly in the activities of love.
Ques “Having loved his own”, that is the new generation?
JT “Having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end” John 13:1; that is the idea.
RWS The title “children of God” has in mind what we are down here; whereas “sons of God” relates to what is eternal, does it not?
JT What does it say in Romans 8:16? “The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God”. “Bears witness with our spirit”, that is to say you are conscious in yourself, the Spirit makes you conscious, that we are children of God. You have a joy in your heart that cannot be taken away — you are one of God’s children. I cannot describe that, it is the action of the Spirit within us bearing witness with our spirits that we are children of God.
JRH So that we have not only the right, but the conscious sense of being children.
JT Think of the action of the Spirit within yourself bearing witness with your spirit! Not to people outside but with your own spirit, the Spirit making it known that you are one of God’s children. That is what we have here; and then, going on to Romans 8:17, “And if children, heirs also: heirs of God and Christ’s joint heirs” — heirs of God, think of that word! — “and Christ’s joint heirs; if indeed we [p. 231] suffer with him that we may also be glorified with him”. What thoughts there are in these verses!
JTJr The Spirit is accessible to us.
ANW Does “born … of God” involve the three Persons of the Deity?
JT The Spirit is contemplated in connection with new birth. It is the Spirit’s action. We have the Father, the Son and the Spirit, each working severally; so in the scripture, “heirs of God, and Christ’s joint heirs” Romans 8:17, the titles of the two Persons are separated. I would say “God” is the Father there.
PL Christ’s children — would that be on another line?
JT That has to be thought of, too, Christ as distinct from God. But I would say that God there would be the Father.
AR Is it the thought of divine nature with children?
JT I am afraid of that expression, divine nature: I am afraid of the word ‘nature’ as applied to God. Children of God are the production of the Father in the sense of God’s action, divine in character in that way.
Ques Is there a difference between children of God here (John 1) and in Romans 8?
JT It is a similar thought. The same persons are involved. The children are derived from God, it is a question of derivation.
PL Children by birth and sons by adoption?
JT They are derived from God.
Rem The Spirit itself “bears witness with our spirit” Romans 8:16. Would that not make us particularly sensitive as to the blowing of the wind?
JT I would think so. It is mysterious. The mystery of the thing is called [p. 232] attention to.
JRH We have the thought in Galatians of being heirs through God. Is there advancement in this thought?
JT Here it is “heirs of God, and Christ’s joint heirs” Romans 8:17. Well, if we are to be prepared for such a character of things we have to be prepared for suffering, “if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him”, as if the suffering in that sense is a gift, something done for you with something else in view. If we suffer we shall be glorified with Him.
PL The suffering comes because the children of God display God and are thus hated here.
JT They belong to God. They are His. Even the Jews are viewed as suffering because they belong to the woman in Revelation 12.
Rem The Lord says, “No one can come to me except the Father … draw him” John 6:44. Would that link with John 1, with the fact that persons receiving Christ are born of God?
JT That is the gift of the Father in view of Christ, showing how divine Persons are in relation to One Another, because no one comes to Christ unless the Father draws him. It is the sovereign work of God, and that is what John is dealing with.