DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM (4)
[p. 252] DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM (4)
Galatians 3:21 - 29; Romans 3:14,15; Hebrews 2:10
JT We have before us the subject of sonship at this time, and in the afternoon we shall have, God willing, the subject of the brethren of Christ. The brethren will be aware that the term ‘sonship’ has a wide bearing, extending back to the Old Testament, extending back even prior to the creation of Man; that is to say, angels are God’s sons. We read in the book of Job of the sons of God that they shouted for joy, that is at the time of creation, creation as we have it. There are even those regarded in that light in Genesis 6; but Job’s references to sonship should be particularly looked into. However the general thought of sonship is confined to these scriptures that we have read, and we shall, as coming to the verse read in Hebrews, reach the very highest thought that God has now leading many sons to glory; not simply to heaven but to glory. But the most practical and intelligible thought of sonship is seen in the epistle to the Galatians in the verses read, as we shall see. We shall see that it is a question of light, not a question of the Spirit at first, but a question of light, and of the period in which we live, this being the period which can be called the period of sonship. In Galatians we are regarded as sons even before we have the Spirit, but the Spirit is contemplated in both Galatians and Hebrews. And so it is thought we might look at Paul as the one chiefly dealing with the matter of sonship.
JRH Reference was made to the angels as on the morning of creation; would the contrast be seen in Lucifer, son of the morning? “How art thou fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning!” Isaiah 14:[p. 253] 12.
JT That is a matter of the fallen angels, beings who have left their first estate even as seen in Genesis 6.
RWS Much is made of the matter of time, as seen in what it says in Galatians 3:23: “But before faith came, we were guarded under law, shut up to faith which was about to be revealed”. And then verse 25: “But, faith having come …” Does that open the way to the full thought of sonship coming in in the faith period?
JT That is to show the thing as regards time. It is a figure of speech in that passage — kept under governors and tutors until that time, speaking of Old Testament conditions. They were kept under tutors and governors until a time set by the father. The ‘father’ there is not God but simply a figure — showing what any man may decide as to his children. But that time came, and we are in that time, and everyone born anew is in it, a time fixed of the Father. I would like the brethren to consider what I am saying. It is not a question of the receiving of the Spirit or of the gift of the Spirit, but of what is stated as to the time — the time of sonship. The word ‘father’ in Galatians 4 is a figure of speech. The children are in the nursery until the time set; they cannot come into the drawing-room until the time appointed by the father. And the apostle emphasises here that that time has come, and that the Galatians were not under tutors and governors any longer.
ANW “But because ye are sons, God has sent [p. 254] out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father”. Galatians 4:6. Does that confirm what you are saying — “because ye are sons”?
JT The fact is, the time has come, the time appointed by the Father. That is we are in the time of sonship and we get the Spirit because we are in that time. “But because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father” Galatians 4:6. It is “because ye are sons”, even before we get the Spirit. We are dealing with the time and that time was not until the incarnation, the time of the Spirit, the time of redemption accomplishing. Hence it is, “for ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus” Galatians 3:26; not by the Spirit, but by faith.
FW Is “the fulness of the time” Galatians 4:4 in contrast to the period of waiting before?
JT Quite so. It is a question of time, and what a question it is! I think the brethren do well to look into this. Many are struggling with their state, whereas in truth the question of sonship does not depend upon state at all, it is a question of being a subject of the work of God in the time we are living in. “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, that he might redeem those under law, that we might receive sonship” Galatians 4:4,5. Redemption was in mind. We must have redemption that we might receive sonship.
RM Do we come into sonship through the death of Christ?
JT It is a question of redemption being accomplished. When was redemption accomplished? It is a question of time.
FKC There are many struggling with their state, but realising that we are sons of God would set us free?
JT The apostle is afraid of the Galatians, but still he says: “Ye are all God’s sons” Galatians 3:26. That is, it is a question not of their state but of the time they are living in.
HB We read in John’s gospel of “in that day”; is that, as referring to the Spirit’s day, similar to your thought as to the present period?
JT Well, it is; “in that day” in John 14:20 is full christianity, the full revelation of divine Persons.
AR Does “for ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus” Galatians 3:26 include sisters as well as brothers?
JT Certainly. One would like the sisters to take on this matter because it is not a question of state or teaching or service in that sense, but of being the period of sonship. It is for each one to take it on and the Spirit comes in to help us to enjoy it and show the characteristics of it.
AR It is the Spirit saying, “Abba, Father”.
JP There is a note to ‘sonship’ in verse 5: ‘Or’adoption’. It is receiving the position of sonship as a gift.’Receive’has an active force here. Jew and Gentile received it as a gift from another, even freely from God; for the Jew was in bondage under law: the Gentile had right to nothing: see Romans 8:15, 23; Romans 9:4; Ephesians 1:1’.
JT That is it. What is said in Galatians 3:26 is to be born in mind and then Galatians 4:4, “When the fulness of the time was come”. Notice that it is a question of time. Galatians 3:25 tells us, “But, faith having come, we are no longer under a tutor; for ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus. That is, all the Galatians were, and transferring it to ourselves, all of us here today are — ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus”; that is a fact and it is a question of the fulness of the time, Therefore it goes on to say: “For ye, as many as have been baptised unto Christ, have put on Christ”. That is the external, the mere matter of baptism. “There is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female” — notice this — “for ye are all one in Christ Jesus; but if ye are of Christ, then ye are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise” Galatians 3:28,29.
JJ Hebrews 11 gives a list of those who have had [p. 256] faith.
JT The point in Hebrews 11 is that things were done and enjoyed by faith anticipatively, beginning with Abel. But what we are dealing with now is a question of relationship with God, with the title to it. That relationship is sonship and applies to everybody here who is a subject of the work of God, even though not yet having the Spirit.
AR “There is no male and female”, Galatians 3:28 what have you in your mind about that?
JT That is just what it says: “There is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female” Galatians 3:28; that is, the relation of male and female is not in mind at all. And the Lord confirms that in Matthew 22:30: “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as angels of God in heaven”. He is speaking of “that world, and the resurrection” — the coming world. There is no male or female in that world. The point with the Sadducees was whose wife should she be? The Lord points out that in that world and the resurrection there is no such thing as marriage; they are to be as the angels, sons of God, sons of the resurrection (Luke 20:35, 36).
LK “For ye are all one in Christ Jesus” Galatians 3:28: Is “in Christ Jesus” a fixed matter but the other more characteristic?
JT The point there is the word ‘in’, “in Christ Jesus”. It is the position we are in outwardly — we are in Christ Jesus. It is the fact of our position in Christ.
LK And it goes on, “but if ye are of Christ” — what about the ‘If’?
JT It is the ‘if’ of hypothesis: “But if ye are of Christ, then ye are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise”. If one thing is so, then another thing is so.
ASB In Luke 20:36 it says, “For they are equal to angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection”; that is, we are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
JT That is confirmed here in verses 28 and 29. So that the position of sonship is a matter of light for our souls to take in. But we are not simply left with light, we have the Spirit; that is the point in chapter 4: “But because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba. Father” Galatians 4:6. Crying is the word.
JTJr The idea of the commonwealth in Philippians would convey the thought of sonship in the way of light.
JT Our commonwealth is in heaven.
JTJr We all have the same status, there is no question of male or female.
PL Would it be “the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven”. Hebrews 12:23? We have come to that.
JT Very good, “the assembly of the firstborn”; we are dealing with Levites and every Levite was a firstborn; the Levites were taken from the whole of Israel. There might be five or six sons but each one was a firstborn. We are dealing with that — those registered in heaven; and that fits with what was said a minute ago that our commonwealth is in heaven.
PL We “have come to mount Zion” (Hebrews 12:22), as if we are saluted in sonship in all the majesty of the divine realm.
JT Quite so. We are said to have come to eight things in that chapter.
PL I wondered if this line of sonship would not move our souls from the start, promoting with us the spirit of mutuality and spiritual respect for the sons of God.
JT We have the time of sonship in mind by itself; that is a matter of light. But what you mention is characteristic, and so involves the Spirit. We [p. 258] must have the Spirit to get the full thought. Many have suffered while anticipating “the time”, but we are already in the time, the time of sonship.
JTJr “There is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus” Galatians 3:28. That is to be seen practically with us.
JT It is a matter of light, and as light comes in the brethren become interested about things because these meetings offer liberty to the Spirit to help the brethren, both brothers and sisters. I would greatly emphasise that the sisters are to take notice that it is for them, this question of “the time”.
JRH Would you please say something about “the Spirit of his Son”?
JT We see affections come in there. It is not simply a question of the incarnation but of the Spirit of His Son — what He is as Son to the Father — that Spirit pervading us. Not now simply a question of the period we are living in, but of the Spirit of God’s Son — a state belonging to this time — something additional.
AMacD Does “into our hearts” suggest affection?
JT And urgency, because the word ‘crying’ is remarkable — the idea of crying. “God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father” Galatians 4:6. That is more than the matter of time, it is a thing to be gone into very fully.
WL Is there something specially for the heart of God in sonship?
JT We shall come to that in Romans 8 and then in Hebrews 2; that is to say, God is bringing many sons to glory and we are linked with that. It is what He is doing now, bringing many sons to glory — that is the point — to something.
JS Is the thought of teaching therefore helpful [p. 259] in the matter?
JT The Lord is taking great pains with the brethren in giving us these meetings. The local brethren arrange them and hold their houses open so that we might all come into the sphere where the Spirit of God is free, and we get light as to the truth. The point is whether we wish to know the truth, not simply to be in the backwash of things, but to know the truth setting us free.
GAS What is suggested in verse 21 of chapter 3 in relation to the quickening?
JT It says: “For if a law had been given able to quicken, then indeed righteousness were on the principle of law” Galatians 3:21. The apostle is pointing out that the law cannot help us because no matter how many commandments there might have been they would not quicken. But now the quickening time has come.
RWS Is there special emphasis on the word “receive” — “that we might receive sonship”? Galatians 4:5.
JT Quite so. It is a gift.
RWS Is there special importance in understanding that this is the time of which the Lord said to the crowd, “ye do not discern this time” Luke 12:56? The time of special importance, the time of redemption accomplishing; it is a question of understanding this glorious time.
JT One wonders how the brethren regard it. What progress is being made in these great things? Because it is a question of getting into these great things.
LK There is urgency in regard of the crying. Is the great thought that there should be an outlet for the Spirit in persons crying, “Abba, Father”?
JT I would say that.
JS In Solomon we have a dual thought of sonship, “For I was a son unto my father, tender and an only one in the sight of my mother”. Proverbs 4:3.
JT Quite so. It is a question of Solomon’s affection for his mother.
FKC “God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts” Galatians 4:6. In that way are we brought into the full light and glory of the life in this time in which we are?
JT All that is included, for the time has come that was appointed by the father, faith having come.
AR “So thou art no longer bondman, but son” Galatians 4:7.
JT The point here is not so much that we are no longer bondmen, but that we are sons. And all the saints in that way come into it by faith in Christ Jesus.
JRH In times when soul difficulties arise a person often puts himself in bondage, whereas it is a matter of being set free by the truth.
JT We should know what is right, and therefore the objective side is very important in looking away from yourself and understanding what you really are.
PL Is it not the level of Deuteronomy: “Ye are sons of Jehovah your God”? Everything flows from that idea.
JT “Ye are”. We get something like that in the types as to the Levites, what they were; but then after all we are dealing now with christianity, and even Deuteronomy, the greatest teaching of the Old Testament, is in the time of tutorship and governors. We are not in that time, we are already in the time which God has appointed.
PL The Spirit was focusing on this time.
GAS In Romans it is heirs through the Lord Jesus Christ, but here it is through God.
JT It is just an enlarged thought; it is a question of divine Persons. It may be through the Lord, or through the Spirit even, or through God; it is a question of divine Persons and how things are enlarged.
AR In Luke 15:18 the prodigal says: “I have sinned”, and then it says the father ran. The prodigal does not say all he was going to [p. 261] say.
JT The father does not imply that he should not have said, “I have sinned”, because he should have said it. “I am no longer worthy to be called thy son” — the father is not saying that he should not say that. He should.
SJH Refined feelings are needed such as were evidenced with the Lord Himself. He said to Jerusalem, “If thou hadst known, even thou, even at least in this thy day, the things that are for thy peace” Luke 19:42. You would feel the same today.
JT He wept over them. Perhaps we do not know much about that, about tears in regard of the state of the saints.
BW That the saints may not only have the light of sonship, but the consciousness of it.
JT That is really the thing. And the sisters are in this too. We want them in it, that the sisters should take in the understanding of the truth and not just leave it with their husbands. There is no question when it comes to sonship of male or female at all; it is available to any here in whom the work of God is proceeding The elder son is called “Child” in Luke 15. Has he not appreciated the time of sonship yet?
JT The father says: “Child, thou art ever with me, and all that is mine is thine” Luke 15:31. The Jew is regarded in grace in spite of his conduct, but the younger brother is regarded in abundance of grace.
JTJr Galatians 4:9 says, “How do ye turn again to the weak and beggarly principles to which ye desire to be again anew in bondage?”. Would that be the principle of judaism keeping the people of God in bondage?
JT That is what the apostle is aiming at, to break it up, this going back to the beggarly elements.
LK Galatians 4:7 says, “But if son, heir also through God”. I was noticing that it is God Himself who makes us heirs.
JT That is to say, “heir … through God” is a question of instrumentality; “no longer bondman, [p. 262] but son; but if son, heir also through God” Galatians 4:7. That would be the ‘if’ of hypothesis, emphasising the wonderful fact that it is God Himself who is the instrumentality to make us enjoy sonship. But now to come to Romans 8:14: “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”. So that now it is not a question merely of being in the light of sonship, but of being in the spirit of it. “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons”, so that the Spirit of God is making much of Himself in this sense that sonship cannot be without Him; and not simply cannot be without Him, but cannot be without His leadership, for it is a question of leadership: “as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”. It is instrumentality again. It is a question of instrumentality but it is the leadership that has to be noted, that we are led by the Spirit. There is movement in the position, and this will lead us to Hebrews 2.
JRH It seems to be a matter of negating the flesh as seen in the previous verses.
JT “So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh; for if ye live according to flesh, ye are about to die” — that is the solemn result of the flesh working — “but if, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live: for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God” Romans 8:12 - 14. The body is involved, the deeds of it; the man is controlling the body, so that you have something to show in your body.
WL You would say that we must give the Spirit His full place if we are to get the greatest gain and if God is to get the greatest gain from [p. 263] sonship.
JT That is good. The Spirit is essential to sonship here and therefore we must make much of the idea of “the time”, that it is the time of sonship, being the “period fixed by the father”, the time of faith; and the Spirit cannot be ignored if we are to make the most of it. He is almost the first Person mentioned in Scripture — the Spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters.
JTJr Would He not lead in everything?
JT Yes, in everything you must recognise the Spirit.
JRH It means then that the state that belongs to sonship is seen in the ability to mortify the deeds of the body by the Spirit?
JT That is what it says: “If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live” Romans 8:13. I learn to use the Spirit. As in sonship I learn to use Him by His instrumentality.
ANW In Romans we cry, “Abba, Father”. In Galatians the Spirit cries.
JT There is some advance there. This is what we do. We do it in the Spirit in the time of sonship, showing the need of the Spirit. We need Him, He enters into it and we use Him, speaking reverently.
RWS Does this thought of the leadership of the Spirit carry through to the service of God in the Supper?
JT That is another matter to be considered, because when we come to the actual position of the service of God it is said that Christ is Minister of the sanctuary, not the Spirit. As Minister of the sanctuary it is Christ that gives a lead to the service. Then there is the great thought of Aaron being next to Moses, Moses having the authority and understanding, and Aaron conveying the thought of power with intelligence. God says, “Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother?” Exodus 4:14. That is, he was Moses’ brother and [p. 264] he was supplied by God to Moses to complete the idea of the service of God, Aaron the leader of the service, the minister of the sanctuary, and Moses the inaugurator of it. The tabernacle was built from the instructions given to Moses for its building and then Aaron would take it on and thus the ministry of it.
JS God said to Moses, “Thou shalt take thee Aaron … and his sons”.
JT That is the family, the sons of God.
JLP As to our brother’s question about the Spirit’s place in the service of God, would Ephesians help? “For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”, Ephesians 2:18.
JT That is right; the three Persons are involved — through Christ, as the Mediator, and by the Spirit, and the Object is “to the Father”.
RWS Would it then be the leadership of the Lord and not of the Spirit?
JT The passage reads: “For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father” Ephesians 2:18. The Object in mind is the Father; that is the trend of the service. But the trend of everything, the terminus of everything is in the assembly; that is where things finish and divine Persons move in that connection.
WL “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually to God, that is, the fruit of the lips confessing his name”, Hebrews 13:15.
JT “By him”, that would be the finish in Hebrews, praise in connection with the Old Testament in a typical sense.
FKC What exactly do you have in mind in saying the terminus is in the assembly?
JT The assembly is the great thought of God that we come to, and if the Lord comes, He comes to the assembly. We have the thought of His coming in the Song of Songs, skipping upon the mountains, but He has an object in mind, and that object is the assembly.
ANW “To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”, Ephesians 3:21.
JT Showing the place the assembly has; “glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”; that is how it reads. It is in the assembly.
FKC In Psalm 19:5, “he rejoiceth as a strong man to run the race”. It is the idea of Christ’s glory and He has it in the assembly as we had this morning.
JT It is a figure of speech: “And he is as a bridegroom going forth from his chamber; he rejoiceth as a strong man to run the race” Psalm 19:5. And I believe the thought is that the terminus is the assembly. The race leads into that. We also have the idea of running a race in Hebrews 12:1: “Let us …run with endurance the race that lies before us, looking stedfastly on Jesus the leader and completer of faith”. “Looking stedfastly on Jesus”, a great Object that!
AMacD Does “bringing many sons to glory” Hebrews 2:10 link with the thought of the service of God?
JT That is a thought that is good to have in our minds, for it implies much in God’s mind, not simply to bring us now to the service, but to bring us to glory. We are referring to the ascending note in the service, ascending in the sense of glory. God is doing it now and it is remarkable: “For it became him” the word “became” refers to God — “for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing [p. 266] many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings” Hebrews 2:10. That is a great thought, to make the Lord perfect through sufferings. What are we to learn from this, His being made perfect? It is a reference to the condition He took; and in which He died and was raised again. It is through Christ that all has taken place. It is in this sense that it became God, “in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings” Hebrews 2:10.
PL J.N.D.’s note to “perfect” reads: ‘Make perfect’ in Hebrews has the force of doing all required to initiate into an office, to make a person fit to be installed in the office. It is sometimes translated ‘consecrate’.
JT Just so. You do not in any way allow of any derogatory thought in Christ being made perfect. He took that place and God intended Him to take it that He might be our Leader: “to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings” Hebrews 2:10.
JRH As to your reference to the ascending note as seen in the idea of glory, would you link that with John 20, the Lord coming into view as the risen Man?
JT Just so. I have often thought of that message through Mary. He forbade her to touch Him. We must not take liberties with divine Persons, we are to know what we are doing. “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God” John 20:17; showing that the position is there. It is a question of ascension, not of going to heaven, but of ascending; the great idea is going up.
ANW With which of the divine Persons has the bringing many sons to glory to do?
JT It is the Father’s work; “It became him”, that is God. Hebrews 2:9 reads, “So that by the grace of God he should taste death for every thing. For it became him, for whom are all things” — that is God — “and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings”. That is what God is doing in view of eternity, because it is a question of enough sons for the service. It is “many”, without saying how many. This is a wonderful passage in Hebrews [p. 267] 2!
WL I wondered if the thought of bringing many sons to glory would lead us beyond the time scene?
JT I think you are right, only there is the thought of time too. God is the Author of time and He uses it. But the great thought with divine Persons is glory: “from glory to glory”. He is bringing many sons to glory, not to heaven, but to glory. And we must see when we think of glory whether it is a place, or a state; but it is called “glory”. That covers it. The word “glory” is to show how much is in mind and what may come to God. It is a question of glory, not of time, but of “Glory to God”.
GAS The glory being involved, it is necessary to bring in the thought of Christ as Leader, as Saviour.
JT He must be brought into this, He is the Leader of the whole matter, but in glory.
ABP Would the glory include the manifestation of sonship, and that the sons have an Object?
JT I would think that the manifestation of sonship cannot have too great a place, because God has glory in sons, He calls attention to them.
ABP In Romans 8 in relation to sons, the glory of sonship affects creation.
JT So that it says, “And not only that, but even we ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit” — now it is a question of the Spirit — “we also ourselves groan in ourselves, awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body”, Romans 8:23. This is an interesting theme, the redemption of our bodies. That is what God has in mind, their redemption, and then what we shall be? “What we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” 1 John 3:2. That is what is in mind in the passage I have just read.
FKC “But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according [p. 268] to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit”. 2 Corinthians 3:18. The Spirit has part in that glory.
JT It brings in the Spirit, and He is called Lord in that passage.
JTJr “For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed to us” Romans 8:18. Is that the glory of sonship?
JT There the glory is the revelation of the sons of God.
JB Does the scripture, “For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings” Hebrews 2:10, imply sufferings on God’s part?
JT No; it is just what is suitable to God in such circumstances. It is a question of God ordering the death of Christ; not that God became Man and died, but that it “became” God, it was suitable to God that it should be so. It did not happen to Him Himself, but to Christ. It is a question of suitability in what is happening in these circumstances.
FW In this great matter of sonship would it help us in our thoughts to see the great place sonship has in regard to creation?
JT It is very beautiful what God has. Revelation 4:11 says. “For thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were, and they have been created”. Everything was created for God; He will have a new heaven and a new earth, but there is glory to God in the present heaven and earth.
FW There is a present consciousness in our hearts that this is so.
JT And the Spirit will aid you in that. There is nothing for God’s pleasure in which the Spirit will not aid you.