DIGNITY AND WEALTH IN ADMINISTRATION (2)
DIGNITY AND WEALTH IN ADMINISTRATION (2)
SMcC As we did not finish chapter 4 we might refer back a little to it, for the teaching of it is important in regard to the present time. As was said this morning 1 Kings gives us the heavenly side of the type of the truth bearing on Christ and the assembly at the present moment. Chronicles gives us more the side linked with the world to come - the millennium, therefore the remarkable stress of sonship in Kings which we do not have in Chronicles in the same way. While it is there, it is not seen to the extent to which it is seen in 1 Kings, and the absence in Kings of the veil, the folding doors in the temple, all stressing in our minds in the teaching in the type, the liberty connected with the side of things that we are considering. We might just refer to this verse 7 to the end of verse 19 and verse 20 where it is alluded to, to see how the working out of the administration under Solomon, as in verse 20 involve felicitous conditions among the brethren, as it says “Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking and making merry.” It is to point us in our thoughts to the prosperity of an administration of this kind of character where the spirit and grace of sonship is prominent, difficult territories entering into the areas in which influence is exercised, verses 7 and 19, but whatever the area and whatever the disadvantage may be and difficulty, each yields its quota to the richness and fulness of what is linked with King Solomon’s table. I think that souls coming amongst us need to get an impression of King Solomon’s table, that there is no doubt amongst us, it is not that they are just coming into a sphere of light, important as that is - there is light as we shall see in the sphere, but there is an abundance of spiritual food of a rich substantive and qualitative character.
ATS It was one of the things that impressed the Queen of Sheba, was it not?
SMcC Just so. She was impressed with the happiness of the realm, the relations between Solomon and his servants, and I think souls in coming amongst us should get an impression as to the felicitous conditions that belong to the assembly world.
WHW Would Paul be referring to that in Philippians 4 where he says “And know also ye, O Philippians, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I came out of Macedonia, no assembly communicated anything to me in the way of giving and receiving save ye alone” and so on: “Not that I seek gift, but I seek fruit abounding to your account?”
SMcC The letter to the Philippians is remarkable for the particular happy atmosphere that there seems to be amongst the brethren. Not just superficial happiness but the settled joy and happiness that is linked with the enjoyment of the truth from the heavenly side.
WRS Does that link with the thought of eternal life enjoyed amongst the saints?
SMcC Well, it does. It would involve that, that there is an environment and sphere in the assembly where we have buoyant conditions. Eternal life involves that.
GWB Would the two references by the Lord in John 20 to “Peace be to you” stand related to what you are saying, in the matter of peace?
SMcC Well, It would. The Lord had in mind to set them at ease. It is a great matter to be relieved from stress in the assembly realm. The assembly realm brings before us a deathless state of things, where the power of death is known, is broken, so properly speaking in the assembly realm we should be free and happy in our spirits.
LI So would the people here not be speaking about the difficult territories or areas you have mentioned, but as dwelling together they would be happy in the joy of divine things.
SMcC Just so. The difficult things have been gone through in the opening chapters of the book. The features of the man of sin and shame which appeared to the displacement of David and Solomon were thoroughly gone over in the first three chapters in the book, and Solomon is projected on to our view through the prophetic service of Nathan, the maternal influence of Bathsheba, and the moral weight acquired in military prowess of Benaiah, and Zadok comes into it as bringing the horn of oil out of the tent of meeting, to anoint Solomon.
LI Would such conditions as are before us in this chapter greatly facilitate recovery? I was thinking of Luke 15, “How many hired servants of my father’s have abundance of bread, and I perish here by famine,” and it says “they began to make merry.”
SMcC Exactly. This involves the truth of Luke 15, because Luke 15 really involves Ephesians in the full result of it, that we have our happy, buoyant state of things in the house of God referred to there, all conducive to the help of returning ones such as is set out in the teaching.
DAI So that Naomi had heard that Jehovah had visited his people to give them bread. Is that the forerunner of the movement to go back?
SMcC Yes. Therefore the importance of settled relations between us that no moral distance should be allowed, that matters that require settling should be settled and settled quickly so that there are relations which tend to the promotion of these conditions of holy and happy felicity among the brethren.
GHW Would the bringing in of the horn of oil into the tent of meeting bring in what the Spirit is as amongst the saints?
SMcC Yes, it would point to a spiritual movement in which the Spirit of God is, making way for Christ. That is the only man that the Spirit of God will make way for. He will not make way for any other man, but Christ.
JH Do you suggest that the dealing with moral conditions suggested in the earlier chapters has particularly in mind the setting free for the enjoyment of the conditions suggested here?
SMcC That is it exactly. It is making way for the wealth of Solomon’s administration, especially in view of Judah and Israel being many, eating and drinking and making merry. There are thus conditions in which the truth prospers as indicated here.
CAI So what we have considered in the chapter in regard to sonship in the first six verses, and then personality coming out in this way of superintending, things become regulated; is that necessary in view of this felicitous state of things being promoted?
SMcC Well, exactly, and it is important that there should be this testimonially amongst us if the truth of the glad tidings is to prosper. Souls are going to get help. We need the enjoyment of the truth substantially with us and amongst us.
GWB Hence your reference to the necessity to have things settled quickly that things might flow. Is that what you had in mind?
SMcC That is right, and especially do we need to be helped to see the importance of putting our hand to matters. Someone was referring when we closed this morning to the fact that in two instances daughters of Solomon are referred to. Verse 11 it says “Ben-Abinadab had all the upland of Dor; Taphath the daughter of Solomon was his wife.” And then later it says in verse 15 as to Basmath: “Ahimaaz in Nephtali; he also took Basmath the daughter of Solomon as wife.” We have the particular links in affinity with Solomon, not only King Solomon on the throne exercising the benign influence objectively, and affecting things subjectively throughout the whole realm, but we have these persons that are referred to - Officers, persons of moral quality were linking on with all this in its objective way.
WHW Would the two references given, give an indication that the superintendents were keeping in close touch with Solomon?
SMcC That is what I thought in saying that there were links of affinity between them. That they were not only officially in the position, but there was a certain link in affinity with them, between Solomon and themselves.
WHW Do you think these two references might have a bearing on our present day - sisters being in the care meetings?
SMcC Well, exactly, especially where you have matters working out in this way in regard to the administration of Solomon. “Solomon had twelve superintendents over all Israel; and they provided food for the king and his household: each man his month in the year had to make provision.” And these women are brought into it, showing the important part that the sisters have in it too, while not so much is said about them, they are there.
CAI So that apart from the side of sonship or what there may be in relation to Solomon officially, there is this link on a family line. The daughters of Solomon would bring in that side, wouldn’t they?
SMcC Well, they would, especially stressing the feminine side. The Lord has been helping us much as to the subjective and feminine side in recent years.
RGC Would not a superintendent like this in verse 15, choosing what is good and choice have a very powerful influence for good?
SMcC A modifying influence, not modifying in the sense that the truth is modified, but we all know how our wives help to modify us. We can thank God for that, that we have wives, that help to modify our extremeness in certain ways, and the subjective element acts in a modifying way.
DRT Would that be seen in Priscilla along with Aquila in the way they help Apollos?
SMcC Exactly. Three times he is put first and three times she is put first.
WHW As to your remarks bearing on the king’s table, I think that is important, it would be far reaching with us. The superintendents not only caring exactly for Solomon’s interests, but caring for the interests of the brethren so to speak. That links on, does it, with the administration that flows from King Solomon’s table?
SMcC And so it says in verse 27 “And those officers provided food for King Solomon, and for all who came to King Solomon’s table, every man in his month: they let nothing be wanting.” It is not only for King Solomon but for all who came to King Solomon’s table. Notice the constant reference to the regal thought, and we need to keep regal thoughts in our minds from the standpoint of the administration in its heavenly bearing.
WHW So that would be a real thought for us to have before us in relation to our local meetings - prayer meetings and reading meetings, addresses, ministry meetings and so on.
SMcC That is how administration would work out in effect and result. Reconciliation as it is brought in connection with the truth of the glad tidings involves unity and affection among the brethren. Now that is a point that we are inclined to miss in regard to reconciliation.
Reconciliation does not only affect me individually in the sense that all the distance is gone and I now am in the sense of God’s pleasure and delight as before Him in Christ who is the point of complacency, but it involves our links with one another - unity of affection among the brethren.
RH What is the scripture for that, Luke 15?
SMcC Well, that enters into it, but Ephesians 2 which corresponds with Luke 15, says, Of the Jew and Gentile in verse 14, “For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of enclosure, having annulled the enmity in his flesh, the law of commandments in ordinances, that he might form the two in himself into one new man, making peace; and might reconcile both in one body to God by the cross, having by it slain the enmity; and, coming, he has preached the glad tidings of peace to you who were afar off, and the glad tidings of peace to those who were nigh. For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father. So then ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God.” All that is pointing to the place that reconciliation has in the bringing of us together in the unity of affection in happy conditions in the house of God.
DRT Is that what Paul is after in Philippians 4 in the Epistle you referred to, “being of the same mind in the Lord?” I refer to the two sisters.
SMcC Well, he has a word for them, showing the influence that sisters may have, and I think in the current crisis that we have been passing through in recent times, sometimes a great deal of reference is made to those that have led, but I think the sisters need a word as to where they have been in the conflict, what feelings have marked them, and it is not only necessary that the leaders get adjusted but the general side to things amongst the brethren needs help too, so that we should all go on happily together.
JH With regard to the testimonial side, is the matter of eating and drinking and making merry, would that be a suggestion of eating Christ and drinking of the Spirit? and being in the joy of it?
SMcC Well, it would involve an allusion to the Spirit. “The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,” as Paul says in Romans chapter 14.
CAI In Isaiah 56 the word is that “Also the sons of the alien ... “ they have to be brought in in relation to Israel and made joyful in regard to God’s house of prayer. If that is so with Israel, what should it be with the assembly?
SMcC I think the Lord is helping us as to the Gospel that we should be more and more evangelical, on the outlook for souls in the open air and elsewhere, constantly on the outlook in view of the imminence of the translation, for the way we can help souls - whether believers or unbelievers.
WHW So would that be the reason why we have had pressed in ministry recently the heavenly side of the gospel being brought into it by those who serve?
SMcC I think so. That is the point here because the more heavenly we are, the greater and wider is our outlook. You will remember that in the Colossian Epistle Paul says that he laboured to “present every man perfect in Christ.” A remarkable statement as he comes on to church ground, because that does not mean every man among, the saints, the brethren, the people of God, it means every man, it means what it says “every man” - he laboured in his ministry to “present every man perfect in Christ.”
LI In relation to presenting the heavenly side of the gospel, what you have said as to the testimonial side seems very important. Would it be that if these conditions are there in the way of witness the gospel would be greatly strengthened in the presentation of it.
SMcC Well, that is the point. So that what Moses said, we want to be able to say to people “Come with us and we will do thee good,” that is, we have something that we can draw the attention of persons to.
CAI As to this heavenly side of things, would you say it is a matter not so much of attainment, but entering into the truth connected with what is established in the economy. The throne is supreme under the Father’s ordering in love.
SMcC Well, I think so, the man that takes the daughter of Solomon as his wife suggests that we are prepared to take on the light and truth that govern the position. We are not saying Well, it is beyond me, and I am not up to it, and I am not equal to it, the Lord helps us all, and it is a good thing for the young brothers and sisters to see this side, that the Lord helps us as we take on the truth.
CAI So things are set before us in Christ adding the blessedness of what is in the mind of God for us as portrayed there; and what is seen there is also to be seen here.
SMcC Well, exactly.
ESB Is that why it says each man has his month, not a month?
SMcC It is a beautiful touch that. “His month.” We remember in Numbers, every prince has his day. I think God gives everyone of us our opportunity, and it is a great thing for the young brethren to see that now is their opportunity and to make the most of it. God loves to see what the month will bring out - what the day will bring out so to say. “His month,” not somebody else’s month.
RGC Would you say a word then as to why the provision for one day is so outlined?
SMcC It seems to me, that the monthly side is brought in as to the general tenor of the supply side on the part of the man, but then the “day” is brought in to show us the detailed side of the position, so it says, verse 22, “and Solomon’s provision for one day was thirty measures of fine flour, and sixty measures of meal.” Now this is to be noted, that the stable side in the position here is not all luxurious food, although it is good food, but it is substantial food which is needed to build up a sound heavenly constitution.
RGC Are these conditions then to be constant, not to be spasmodic? Apparently this provision is for every day, although only one day is emphasised.
SMcC That is it. It points to sustained conditions. That is every day, or one day, points to sustained conditions in this realm. There is not one week when there is an awful dearth and the next week where there is full and nothing lacking - it is a sustained condition of things that is in mind here.
RGC Did not one of our early brethren say that Christianity works in what we bring, not what we find. Is that the exercise to come out of this, to see what we are bringing to help in this constant supply?
SMcC Well, that is it. That is what this teaching would help us to see, that we are given the opportunity to exploit whatever the area or region of exercise might be related to our responsibility. He has given us that to work out. Now what will we do? What first does this man that is called Ben-Geber in verse 13 - it says “Ben-Geber, in Ramoth-Gilead; he had the villages of Jair the son of Manasseh, which are in Gilead; he had the region of Argob, which is in Bashan, sixty great cities with walls and bars of bronze.” He did not come back and say to Solomon “I can’t work out that territory, it is too difficult.” That is the territory that was his, and our cities are the places where God has set us. Wherever we are we are to work out the matters, wherever we have our area, and sphere of responsibility.
CAI So if we are on the line of giving thanks to the Father who has made us fit and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, the spirit of thanksgiving should characterise us?
SMcC Well, exactly. There is nothing promotes spiritual prosperity like buoyant conditions in our souls. We are not ignoring the other side of the truth where the truth always brings about displacement in ourselves through pressure and difficulty and other means.
EBr Is this side of things - of speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs?
SMcC Yes. I think that enters into this chapter in a peculiar way, promoting the buoyant conditions that we have here - “eating and drinking and making merry.”
DRT Would this be worked out in Ephesus? We read of the twelve there, twelve men, we read also of “reasoning daily” and it says there that they “heard the word of the Lord,” it is like the food, is it?
SMcC The word of the Lord would be regulating, the word of the Lord is mentioned on the great militant side in Acts 19. In Corinth where we have the opening up of the mind of God it is the word of God that is alluded to.
WHW Would the provisions in verses 22 and 23 be the exercises that brethren take up as we receive the ministry, and work these exercises out until there is something definite?
SMcC That is what one is particularly thinking about and especially that the younger ones should be helped as to Mr. Darby’s and Mr. Raven’s and Mr. Stoney’s ministry. The thirty measures of fine flour and sixty measures of meal represent the truth on the stable side in relation to what is needed in our souls. Good foundations you might say. The truth of deliverance and the truth of union in Mr. Stoney’s ministry, for instance.
WHW So the thought of the king’s table, you might say, fits into any local company?
SMcC Well, it does. That is where it would work out practically, in the local company.
JH You speak of what is substantial. Is that to build what you were speaking of this morning - substantial persons?
SMcC That is it. That the things that we are talking about are not to be just fancied thoughts in our minds; pictures which delight our minds, but the truth is to affect us substantially, so that we are built up substantially with a constitution suited to the greatness of that which we have part in.
RGW You can count on divine Persons seeing that this provision is available if we take on the responsibility of supplying it.
SMcC We can count on it in the local gathering. Think of the importance of the Spirit of God when we come together to read the scriptures. We notice here that there is the measure of fine flour and sixty measures of meal. All that suggests what has come about through processed means. We know that the fine flour and the sixty measures of meal would have come through a process, but then we get for instance twenty oxen out of the pastures, out of the pastures, the immediate bearing as it were of the truth in freshness and in power in regard to matters.
BD Does this make for a balance in the ministry, so that no feature of the truth is over-stressed?
SMcC Well, it does. And I do not think we generally realise the importance of the Synopsis - Mr. Darby’s Synopsis. A young man should read the Synopsis. Sometimes we say, well, Mr. Darby’s ministry is difficult to read. It may be, but you will find that the more you keep at it the more you will be drawn to it and the more you will be helped by it.
GSF Does love enter into it? I mean the love of the truth? In Proverbs it speaks of loving wisdom.
SMcC The love of the truth enters into it. Paul tells Timothy - he says “thou hast fully followed up” his teaching, referring to the teaching. It is a great matter that the truth should be fully followed up.
AM Would you say that Solomon’s provision is the aggregate of what each locality would provide? Are we dependent on that?
SMcC Well, I think if you look at it working out locally it is the aggregate of what all the saints provide, and especially persons who are working out things in their souls.
CAI So that each needs to be entering into satisfaction with happiness and joyfulness? And that would be brought into the meetings, would it not?
SMcC It is an important thing that we should see in the locality how the principle of Solomon’s provision is to be worked out, for some say “Well, we want to get fresh application of the truth.” Well, that is good, and important that we make room for the Spirit, but we want to get what is linked with the truth known and enjoyed in a foundational way, too. That is what gives substance to the position.
ATS With regard to Mr. Darby’s writings, is it not striking that the basic foundation of everything that has come out since is covered there?
SMcC Just so. And beloved Mr. Taylor has drawn our attention to the fact that it is important that we should read the Synopsis.
RGN Is it not essential to get the true basic bearing of the truth before it can be applied to any matter locally?
SMcC Well, it is, otherwise we may fail in rightly applying it.
GAA So the Apostle says to Timothy, “Have an outline of sound words?”
SMcC That is it. “Sound words.” How important that is that we should have the truth in a sound way. Soundness is a great word in the Epistles.
GHW Does this work out as linked with the king, the man Christ Jesus, who has gone up into heaven?
SMcC That the Lord is on the throne on high, not on His own throne. Solomon sat on the throne of David his father, sat on the throne of Jehovah instead of David his father and the Lord Jesus is in that position on high, and things are working out from Him up there as our brother was alluding in his prayer. He is up there and the Spirit is down here and what is down here is commensurate with what is up there. That is a great thing to get into our souls.
AM Mr. Raven said “Grace is commensurate with glory.”
SMcC It is.
GWB So we have the course charted for us, have we, plotted out and with all this to help us we should learn the more quickly?
SMcC Well, we should. There is no time to be lost in view of the imminence of the rapture. The Lord’s coming is near and we should all be watching, not only waiting but watching day by day because it is near.
ESW Does Psalm 16 bring out what he thinks of what he has down here? “To the saints, ... the … excellent thou hast said, in them is all my delight.”
SMcC Yes. Showing the dignity of the saints from that viewpoint.
RGC What about the animals that like the heights, the harts, gazelles and the fallow-deer?
SMcC Well, I suppose they would all represent features of food which would affect the saints constitutionally. That is, the harts and gazelles would not be cumbersome in their movements like the ox, and the oxen are referred to. They, the oxen, fill a certain position. You remember how they come in later on to support the great administration of cleansing in the sea, but here it is a matter of the food that they present. They would build up a constitution in the saints which would result in some feature corresponding to what the oxen suggest. The same with the harts, the gazelles and the fallow-deer.
GAA Would the hart represent alertness that we might be able to pick up what the spirit of God has in mind for the moment?
SMcC That is it. Alertness and sensitiveness, involving the making room for the Holy Spirit.
DRT I was going to ask, would there be a link in that way with the victuals that had to be prepared before passing over the Jordan?
SMcC Yes. The subject of food is very extensive in the scriptures. We get food for various positions - food for leaving Egypt, food for the wilderness, food for crossing the Jordan, and food when we have crossed the Jordan. I would think that the harts, gazelles, fallow-deer and fatted fowl, is food that belongs to the “land.” That builds up the kind of constitution that can enjoy the land.
GWB So that in Song of Songs 2 we have: “My beloved is like a gazelle or a young hart.”
SMcC Well, there it is. It is not their food but it is working out in the persons, working out in the object of the lover there and I think you would see this feature in the assembly in our relations with Christ. Rebecca sprang off the camel. Achsah you will remember was marked by movement, in regard to the upper and the nether springs.
CAI Spiritual agility would be implied and these features would be native to the land.
SMcC Well, they are. And they would save us from ponderous movements when it comes to this side of the truth. If we have become crystallised in our outlook our movements will become correspondingly ponderous and difficult, but if we are moving in the energy of the Spirit, making room for the Spirit, we shall be marked by grace in our movements spiritually and sensitiveness, suggested in these animals.
CAI And yet with a holy liberty in it all?
SMcC Yes.
HB The reference to them in the end of Song of Songs 2 is “be thou like a gazelle or a young hart, upon the mountains of Bether,” which as the footnote suggests means ravines. Do you think this quality in the saints would enable us to move where things are difficult?
SMcC So that to rightly fill out the position we have to enjoy the truth from the heavenly side, that is what it would convey.
WHW So the man from Baal-shalishah brings the right kind of food for the king’s table, would you say? He comes in from the heavenly side.
SMcC He is a remarkable man. We are told he came from Baal-shalishah, but what his reputation was, well we just do not know anything about it. We make a good deal of reputation - persons who have a reputation, but here is a man who comes in with what is needed, and it says of him that he had “bread of the first-fruits, twenty loaves of barley, and fresh ears of corn in his sack. And he said, “Give to the people that they may eat.” He represents an unknown element coming in mysteriously, somebody who has got something, and we have to make room for that among the people of God.
Rem He comes in with food prepared for eating, does he not, but then he has also unprepared food. What does that suggest?
SMcC It might link with the twenty oxen out of the pastures. There might be a lot to be done afterwards, but there it is. Anyway it is quite a contrast to the great pot and the gourds that are shred into it. Our Bible readings should not become opportunities for the fancied novelties of the natural mind, because the natural mind likes to speculate and to roam in things. We can make room for the Spirit so that the teaching is sound.
RGW The Lord speaks in Matthew of the householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old. Would that have a bearing on what you are speaking of?
SMcC Well, exactly. Every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens. That is, he is one who has come under training. Discipleship in Matthew involves regular training, regular education, and I think with all of us, especially the younger ones, that they want to lay themselves out for discipleship as in Matthew’s Gospel. The Lord says “Every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder.” Many young brethren want to know how to get on in the truth. They want to know how to prosper in their souls. Well, the thing is to give themselves over to what the Lord speaks of - discipleship in Matthew’s Gospel. Every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens.
GWB Would there not, too, be something in it for us all, those of us who are older that there may be a quicker prospering with us?
SMcC Yes. The idea of being discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is not a thing coming out of the air. It is a question of what enters into your life, the forming disciplinary processes that disciplined to the kingdom of the heavens alludes to.
LI Is it good to bear the yoke in our youth in that way?
SMcC Well, it is. It is an important thing that we should not be afraid of the yoke in our youth, as Jeremiah says in the Lamentations.
WHW Is all this working so delightful to King Solomon that his mind turns now to the house?
SMcC The closing verses allude to the remarkable increase in the ministry, we might say, where sonship is in such prominence in Solomon, as in verse 29, involving wisdom and very great understanding and largeness of heart. It leads us to this verse 32, “three thousand proverbs; and his songs were a thousand and five,” and all that he speaks of would suggest I think the great variety which we have in our ministry flowing out of all this.
GWB Would you say something as to “largeness of heart?”
SMcC Well, that fits in with the Church Epistles, “Love ... towards all the saints.”
LI So is this in simple language a universal language and interest? In all that pertains to the assembly?
SMcC That is it. We must not be narrow in our outlook. We must not be localised. We must not be parochial. We want to have a large outlook embracing all the saints.
CAI How would that apply in these days? Is it limited to those we are walking with in the truth?
SMcC No. We are holding the ground for our brethren who are not in the truth. We sorrow over the matter that they are not in the truth, but we have to work out things with those who are in the truth, that we can work out the truth with, but we carry our brethren in our hearts, at least we should.
WHW So would your remarks bear on Luke 14?
SMcC Exactly.
WHW Celebration of grace. The Lord coming out in the largeness of His thoughts.
SMcC So that would help us greatly in our outlook in the administration, whether it involves the gospel reaching to souls that are not yet saved, or whether in regard to souls that have been adversely affected and need help in relation to the truth.
GWB Including those who have been withdrawn from? You said something elsewhere as to our attitude towards such.
SMcC Well, the Lord is helping us to serve with the same objective as He has, and that is recovery. But of course we must not become unbalanced in the truth. We must not allow the truth to get out of balance in our minds. We want to serve persons as much as we can on a priestly basis to help them with the truth, such as you have referred to.
TM Would that be effected as having to do with God as to persons?
SMcC Exactly. If you were praying for a person, and I think that anyone that approaches a person with a view to helping them should pray about them first. The only way that they can have moral power with a person is as they pray for them.
SL That would not be what is momentary, would it? It is what would be continuous.
SMcC Well, it is a great thing that we should continue in prayer, especially for those who have been withdrawn from. We are not to forget them. Someone was saying to me the other day that someone suggested they should not be prayed for. Why should they not be prayed for?
CAI Do you think such persons would be included in the prayer in 1 John 5, “If any see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask and he shall give him life”? Would such persons be excluded from that kind of prayer?
SMcC No, they would not. We find that Solomon’s great prayer is a great lesson to every one of us with regard to those who may get away and be marked by famine and lack of rain and other things. He says when they turn towards this house, the place where God has set his name, God will hear, showing what a place all these conditions had in his mind.
GWB Would you say that priestly contact with such would greatly assist and set forward?
SMcC Yes. Not social contact. We should never promote social contact with persons that have been withdrawn from. If we can help them on a priestly basis, by priestly means, then good, but everyone of us remember that it is essential that it must be priestly otherwise if they are unrepentant we may become defiled by what has defiled them.
TRH Deuteronomy says in relation to the cities of refuge, that they were to make a way to it. Do you think we should keep a way open?
SMcC We certainly should. That enters into verse 25, “and Israel dwelt safely.” If there is any place where we should understand safety, if there is any place where the young people should be made to understand safety it is in the assembly. It is the only place they are safe. If there are any young people here who wonder as to whether they will be able to get through High School or through their business, if they are outside the fellowship, the thing is to commit themselves to the fellowship; they will get all the protection that is linked with the administration in that realm to see them through.
LI So the Lord added to the assembly such as were to be saved.
SMcC Well, exactly.
RGC And referring to the other person who is not with us, if such person confess his sin and forsake it, should he not immediately find mercy and come back into the place of safety and protection?
SMcC Well, that is what the Lord is helping us to see. The glory of redemption is to lay hold of our souls so that we can become more and more forgiving,
not excusing evil, not passing over evil, because redemption does not pass over evil, but a willingness to act like God.
ESW The whole city was moved at Naomi’s return?
SMcC Yes, exactly.
GAA Referring to your remark as to prayers for persons withdrawn from, I take it you mean that we should be free to pray for them at our prayer meetings.
SMcC Well, we do. We have young brothers and sisters who have been withdrawn from. Are we not going to pray for them? We certainly pray for them, for we want to see them fully recovered.
GAA Well, I think we need help in that because I don’t think it has been a practice in New Zealand.
S.McC. On what basis?
GAA I am seeking to enquire for the help of the brethren here so that we may be freer to express prayer for withdrawn-from persons. I am glad you brought the matter up.
SMcC The very last word in the book of the Revelation is “let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come; he that will, let him take the water of life freely.” The way is open for persons to come back. Verse 14: “Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life,” as though the door is open for returning persons. On the other hand if persons do not want to return it says, “let him that does unrighteously, do unrighteously still; and let the filthy make himself filthy still; and let him that is righteous practise righteousness still,” but the door is always open for returning ones.
ARG I think we followed the ministry that was given that at the very time of withdrawing we should look for recovery. That was brought to us in ministry, was it not, and I think the brethren accepted it and are acting on it?
TGM Well, if we are acting on it, we are surely free to pray for a person, but could you help us as to how we should address them, as a brother or sister?
SMcC Well, how would you address them?
TGM I would address them in the way I felt was due, that was my feeling, am I right?
SMcC You would not use endearing expressions because there is a reserve that has come in. You would not speak of “our dear brother” and “our beloved brother in Christ” or anything like that, but then abstractly they belong to the family of God, the link has never been broken. Withdrawing from persons never breaks the link in the family of God. It breaks the communal link; that is, the link in fellowship and communion in our practical relations with one another, but it never interferes with what is basic. We do not deliver persons over to Satan in our day. That was apostolic.
RGC They may forfeit certain privileges, but they do not forfeit their status in the family, do they?
SMcC In the family of God, no, but we could not speak of them normally in endearing terms as of the family of God, because the very fact that they are practising sin is contrary to their nature as belonging to the family of God. He that is begotten of God does not sin, so we would be sparing in our references as to terms of endearment, but they are still our brother or sister.
WHU Would you pray for them as a brother or a sister, or as wanderers, those out of the way?
SMcC Well, the only thing I can say is that in our local meeting we have prayed for them as brothers or sisters who have gone out into the world and have been withdrawn from.
CAI That is why that verse in 1 John 5, “if anyone see his brother sinning a sin not unto death,” is not limited to a certain position in the testimony, is it?
SMcC Well, as I say there would be care in the use of our expressions depending on the degree of the sin. But there are young persons of whom we must make a difference. We have persons that we constantly pray for, who have been withdrawn from.
GWB Not wishing to delay, but going back to that for a moment. In certain parts the idea has been that you leave persons with the Lord.
SMcC Yes, but then the Lord is in heaven, is He not? We are down here, we have to deal with persons. The Lord is in heaven, so the thing works out through the priests. We have to deal with persons, although we must keep the balance of the truth in our minds, “let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer.” We must keep that matter clear in our minds.
HT 1 Corinthians 5, it does not suggest there that you call the person a brother. It speaks of him, verse 5, “him that has so wrought this: to deliver him, being such, to Satan.”
SMcC But read down! Come down further - verse 11. Read verse 11.
HT “But now I have written to you, if any one called brother be fornicator.”
SMcC You see it comes in there as to the matter, but then it says, verse 13, not “the brother” but “remove the wicked person from amongst yourselves.” That is, he has become so characterised by this thing, this element of evil, that it clothed him - a wicked person. Nevertheless Paul writes in his second epistle to assure them of his love when repentance takes place.
JR Do you think there is the danger of us being governed by tradition, instead of being governed by the truth?
SMcC Well, it may be. There is always that danger.
HT How would you regard this person spoken of then, this wicked person, until recovery comes about?
SMcC Well, what does Matthew 18 say, what does the scripture say? What does the word of God say? Matthew 18, verse 17: “But if he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly; and if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee.” That is, not exactly to the assembly, but to thee. That is, each one of us as responsible “as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer.” “As one of the nations” so there is the metaphor, not that he is one of the nations, but as one of the nations.
JH That is on account of his present position in that way?
SMcC Exactly.
RGC What does that involve then, “as one” in your mind?
SMcC Well, there can be no social contact or intercourse with such.
CAI That is the matter of attitude towards him.
SMcC Yes, matter of attitude towards him.
HT Now in praying for such, how would we address the Lord in regard of such?
SMcC Well, how would you address the Lord in regard of such?
HT Well, I wouldn’t be happy to say brother.
S.McC. On what basis?
HT Well, if there is recovery there or repentance it makes the position a little different, does it not? Would you not expect to see that? No doubt it would be right to carry them prayerfully before the Lord in view of recovery, but does it not bring in the breach upon those relationships?
SMcC It brings in a breach on the fellowship in those relationships. 1 Corinthians 5, verse 11, says “if any one called brother be fornicator, or avaricious, or idolater, or abusive, or a drunkard, or rapacious, not to mix with him; with such a one not even to eat.” That is very plain. Now he says “if any one called brother,” notice that, “for what have I to do with judging those outside also? ye, do not ye judge them what are within? But those without God judges. Remove the wicked person,” not the brother now, “the wicked person from amongst yourselves.” I mean there would be no point, in judging a sin like this, in clothing the person by speaking of what he is in the family of God, because he is clothed with the sin, yet abstractly in your mind you hold him as belonging to the family of God. Concretely he is this wicked person. He is clothed and covered with this wickedness, but abstractly in your mind he belongs to the family of God, but clothed with this thing, coloured by it, and there can be no communion or carrying on with him.
DRT Would you differentiate between the “in Christ” position and being “in the Lord?” This is not a subject, which is exactly wasting time, because there has been a great deal said about it in this city and a lot of enquiry made as to it.
SMcC Well, if the brethren need help, and we want to get help, we can afford to delay a minute or two longer. What is the difficulty that you have?
ARG Does not the Spirit of God seem to use the word “brother” almost entirely in connection with relations one with another, and although those in relation thus with one another do belong to the family, yet the word “brother” is not introduced or emphasised in connection with the family side, is it? I thought scripture, especially John’s epistle and other references in the Old Testament seem to indicate that the term “brother” has force in connection with our relations with one another; and if we have to break the relations with one another as we do in withdrawal, the force of the word “brother” ceases meanwhile. Is that right? Mr. Taylor has said “it is equal to putting to death.”
SMcC As regards our practical communion or fellowship, but certainly not as regards our abstract relations in the family of God.
ARG No, I do not think anybody has thought it severs anything in the abstract line. I have never heard of anyone thinking that in this district.
GWB If that is so, would you be free in a becoming and in a restrained and quiet way to pray for the “brother” and the “sister,” is that so?
SMcC Well, you certainly would.
GWB So the relationship as son is not broken. Once a son always a son.
SMcC It would seem by what is said that that is not the difficulty.
WHW Does not priestliness answer the difficulty? The priest in the first place considers for God, secondly for the fellowship, thirdly for the person concerned.
SMcC I would think that it would all depend on what is in the brother’s mind when he speaks of the brother. If he has in mind the social side, the side of fellowship, or communion, then I would say it is wrong to speak that way, but if the brother is speaking of what the person is basically, as belonging to the family of God and seeking his recovery, why should he not speak of him as brother? Certainly it would not be sin to refer to him as brother in praying for such and their recovery.
WHW Quite so. I think you helped us in Auckland on that very point, did you not?
SMcC It says in regard of Lot when he was taken captive, “And Abraham heard that his brother was taken captive.” I think it all depends on what is in a brother’s mind when he is using the expression.
ARG Yes. I think it is due to brethren to believe, and I personally believe, that the exercise underlying this is that the careless use of such a term undermines the very important principle of holiness and separation. It leaves certain persons in the minds of many brethren almost on the same footing as they were before, for sometimes dreadful conduct, we have had to withdraw from them.
SMcC Well, if a person is going on in dreadful conduct, and sin, his very conduct denies the relationship, so you would have great hesitancy in referring to him as a brother because of the conduct that marks him.
ARG That is it. What gave rise to the exercise in a specific way was a case of fornication, thoroughly established without the slightest ground for disputing it.
SMcC Well, of course, fornication may be dealt with on the principle of Galatians 6, verse 1.
ARG This was a course though.
SMcC Well, if it was like what we have here in 1 Corinthians 5, it says “remove the wicked person from amongst yourselves.”
ARG Clearly. I mean the cases in the minds of the brethren clearly come in the category of 1 Corinthians 5. We get grace as you were pointing out in the 2nd Epistle do we not, when recovery is in view?
SMcC So it would resolve itself, as we have said, in what the brother is thinking of when he says that. Is he thinking of what the person is abstractly in the family of God, or is he thinking of him according to normal privileges in fellowship and communion? If it is the latter I would say it was wrong, if the former I should not have any difficulty with it. Certainly you would not charge a brother with sin if he did refer to one withdrawn from as a brother.
DAI What is the bearing of Luke 15, the shepherd leaves the ninety and nine to go after the one which is lost?
SMcC Well, the sheep is always the sheep in that sense. That is the primary thought. If you are thinking of the brother as the primary thought, as of the family of God, well we pray for our brethren that are in the systems around. Surely we call them our brethren although their conduct denies the relationship.
ESW At the end it says, “this thy brother was dead and has come to life again.”
SMcC Just so.
ARG Would it be right to think of the abstract side more as connected in the mind of the Spirit with the children more than brother or sister? Would the abstract side, the family side, be linked more with born of God, His children?
SMcC Well, you might get into difficulty on those lines, because the Lord says one is your master and all ye are brethren.
CAI “Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite, he is thy brother.”
WHU Why is that term “wicked person” retained in that last verse of the 5th chapter?
SMcC To show the right judgment we should have of the person as not dissociated from the sin. We would deal with the principle of evil or sin from which he refuses to dissociate himself; but as refusing to dissociate himself, we must necessarily deal with him, because he is covered by the thing - the wicked person. Therefore if we are thinking of the outward course of the person and his movements in relation to the brethren, it would not do to refer to him as brother - he is a wicked person; but if we are carrying in our thoughts what he is as of the family of God, and he still belongs to the family of God, he is our brother.
RGC So that if we are burying one who has died out of fellowship like that, we would surely refer to burying the body of our brother, committing his body as our brother to the Lord, would we not?
SMcC There would be a true regard to the whole position. In Chronicles some of the kings were buried in the sepulchres of the kings, another was buried in a separate house in the wilderness, showing that all that would enter into a burial, that a right appraisal is given of the person’s course.
TPM I think what you said as to the way we speak of them, as dear brother, or beloved brother, should help us. There is no need to do that.
SMcC Well, how could you speak of a wicked person as your dear brother or a beloved brother?
TPM I quite agree with that. I think that helps very much.
SMcC But if anyone is speaking of what the person is abstractly in the family of God, why should there be difficulty?
MW Of the prodigal son, when he came back, the father says “thy brother,” so it would seem as if he was a brother right through, according to the way the scripture reads. He does not lose the title “brother” in the relationship, even although he is away in a far country.
SMcC Just so.
WHU That would be a self-judged brother, would it not?
SMcC Do you mean the younger son? In Luke 15?
WHU Yes, is that the one you were referring to?
SMcC Well, he is a repenting sinner, we can say that. He is coming back. Self-judgment is there.
JBI What is repentance? Does confession and the forsaking of sin alter our outlook on the person?
SMcC Well, it does. Repentance is a change of mind. A person has been going on in sin and he changes his mind about it. He has been justifying himself, and he recognises that is sin. His mind is changed. That is repentance.
ARG Does it involve seeing things as God sees them?
SMcC Yes.
ARG That is what we were taught in my younger days was repentance. That the soul is brought to see a thing as God sees it. Only in measure of course.
SMcC Yes, our capacities vary. You would not expect of a younger person what you would expect of an older person, but repentance is repentance wherever it is found. Mr. Darby rejected the thought of quantitative repentance in his writings.
SL In Matthew 18 the word is “if he hear thee, thou has gained thy brother.”
SMcC Yes.
JH Do we need a deeper knowledge of God in an understanding of His love so that we know how to act and speak in each matter as helped by the Spirit?
SMcC Well, we do.
JH Not having a fixed rule exactly, but understanding God’s thoughts better.
SMcC That is right. Although I should think in regard to what has been said it would be a good deal governed by what the person has before him, because we pray for our brethren in all the systems around, some of them are going on with tremendous wickedness, but we pray for them as our brethren, as belonging abstractly to the family of God, but not available to us, and so it might be as regards one withdrawn from. We regard him abstractly as belonging to the family of God, although concretely he may be marked by the opposite we solicit God in relation to his recovery and restoration.