THE BALANCE OF THE TRUTH

THE BALANCE OF THE TRUTH

John 10:1-5; John 10:16; John 11:49-52; Matthew 18:15-20

SMcC It is thought in suggesting these passages as the basis of an inquiry as to the truth this morning we might get help as to the balance of the truth, in relation to John and Matthew, John particularly stressing the family side, Matthew stressing the administrative side. These are two great lines of truth that run together, the one underlying the other; and it is important that the balance of the truth in relation to them should be maintained in our minds in a day of brokenness. The family side in John’s ministry draws our attention to what is basic and characteristic, whether in the flock or in the family, known as the children of God. Matthew, on the administrative side, gives us what may characterise persons or conditions at a given time. John does not exactly stress what may characterise persons at a given time, his ministry stresses what characterises the family of God from beginning to end, what is basic in relation to their part and their place in the family of God. The brethren will recall what Mr. Darby said, ere he departed this scene to be with the Lord; he exhorted the brethren that in insisting on Paul, we must not forget John, we must cleave to John. That is an important thing because John’s ministry is calculated to save us from sectarianism, and it is important that in our outlook and viewpoint in relation to the truth, we should be careful as to what would lead into sectarianism, because John would balance us on the basic side, in understanding that the sheep of Christ and the flock and the children of God involve all that God has in this dispensation. Whether they are with us, walking in fellowship, or whether they are not, the flock and the children of God embrace everyone that belongs to God. It is a great matter that we should understand John’s ministry in this light because it enlarges our outlook, especially in regard to our brethren that are held in captivity in the systems of men, so that we should be more and more, in our outlook, concerned about them, as to their place as the children of God. Of necessity, because of Matthew’s side, the administrative side, since many of them are characterised by lawlessness and independence and disregard of the truth we have to view them from Matthew’s viewpoint as to the concrete side, what marks them at the moment. But from the abstract and basic side in John’s ministry we have to understand what they are as the sheep of Christ and as the children of God. In view of the imminence of the rapture, these scriptures have a prominent bearing in John because you will notice that in the first passage it says, in verse 4, “When he has put forth all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him,” the Lord has in mind, all His own. Then we have the remarkable prophetic utterance of Caiaphas; it is one of the unique utterances that we have in John’s gospel. The Spirit of God says that he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, “and not for the nation only but that he should also gather together into one, the children of God who were scattered abroad.” A remarkable statement, because the children were not scattered abroad then. It looks on to the whole dispensation, especially our time, and I suppose the full result of that will be in the rapture; for alas, many of the children of God are not available to us. Because of the administrative side in Matthew, we cannot walk with them, or work out the truth with them, but nevertheless we rejoice in the fact that, at the rapture, they will all be brought together, and we shall all go up together, not one will be missed out. Every saint of God, every believer, however imperfect things may be or as they may seem to be now, some perhaps, not even having the Spirit, but wonderful things will be done at the rapture and all the children of God will be gathered into one and we shall all go up together. We shall in no wise anticipate those that are asleep, for the dead in Christ will be raised first and we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the air. It will be a wonderful moment, but the apprehension of John’s line of things helps us in the last days, when degeneracy has set in as to the truth, and where there has been great weakening in the public position. That is briefly what is in mind in suggesting these passages.

DRT Is it of interest, you spoke of the breakdown and recovery, that it was the priest that built the sheep gate in the days of Nehemiah, whereas, when you come to the fish gate, which has locks and bars, you have got what is collective as set out in Matthew? I was thinking of the sheep gate, as having no locks and no bars, in the light of recovery.

SMcC Yes, the sheep gate no doubt, would point to the liberty of the people of God, in regard of the city and what is available there. John’s ministry reminds us of the city in the Revelation, the gates of the city; whereas Matthew stresses the side of discernment, the fish good and bad, selected and put in vessels, the worthless cast away. Matthew balances us on the public side with that line of the truth.

WHU You have thought to impress us with the abiding character of John’s ministry, that which abides.

SMcC That is it. It goes through to the end of the dispensation, and it is most important that John’s ministry be maintained. We must not put it in the background. In insisting on Paul we must cleave to John because John comes in, his ministry comes in when all that Paul has set up in public testimony has broken down.

LI Does it require love to hold this broad and wide abstract truth that John brings out as to the family of God? You have reminded us that John refers to love. Does that link up?

SMcC Well, it does. Love runs through all John’s ministry, and if we are proper assembly men and assembly women our affections will be large, our hearts will be enlarged. In our outlook we will hold the ground in relation to all the children of God, in relation to the whole flock, although Matthew’s line would come in to balance us as to practical fellowship and enjoyment of things. Matthew would give us what would preserve us.

AM I think Mr. Darby has said we should essentially keep our feet in the narrow path but our hearts as wide as we can.

SMcC Well, exactly. That is, that if we give up separation we are lost as to the testimony. We must maintain separation, the principles of separation. But we maintain them on the principle of largeness of heart, embracing from John’s outlook and viewpoint, all the sheep of Christ, all the children of God.

GAA So that it would give us to be thankful for the scope of divine operations.

SMcC We get so limited in our thoughts and we need to see more the scope of divine operations, that the economy of love into which the Father, the Son and the Spirit have come and are operating, is an economy that is wide and extended in its operations and ramifications.

LI Would Paul have in mind, when he refers to holding the truth in love, John’s side of the truth?

SMcC Exactly, showing how John’s ministry would link on with Paul’s in stressing the love side; and when we say stressing the love side, that does not mean that sin is palliated, that righteousness is passed over, because love is of God, God is love. It is His nature, and the working out of love among the saints would involve a right and holy judgment of conditions.

HB Scripture speaks of the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts, not by the Spirit but by the Holy Spirit.

SMcC Very good. Pointing to the character of the operations in that Person, the Holy Spirit.

RGC Would the prophet refer to what you have in view, when he says, “lengthen thy cords and strengthen thy stakes?” The lengthening of the cords alluding to our wideness of heart, and strengthening the stakes, our position founded according to righteousness and grace.

SMcC It is a remarkable reference that. You will recall in Isaiah 33 Jehovah is lifted up in Zion and the prophet says, “He shall be the stability of thy times;” then he comes right down the chapter referring to practical conditions and he says, “Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem, a quiet habitation, a tent that shall not be removed, the stakes whereof shall never be pulled up;” and then he goes on to speak of the place of broad streams in which no galley with oars shall go, nor gallant ship pass thereby. It is all leading into the greatness of, in the type, christianity as marked by the presence of the Spirit, a place of broad streams where no galley with oars will go, or gallant ship pass thereby.

WHW Is John 10: 4 helpful in what you have been calling our attention to? “He goes before them, the sheep follow him, because they know his voice.” Is not all the balance in knowing His voice? I mean if that is known practically will we not be kept in balance?

SMcC In a concrete way the sheep of Christ would come to light as knowing His voice and following Him. Verse 3 says, “To him the porter opens,” verse 2, “He that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porters opens.” That is, the Spirit of God is always making way for Christ. He will not make way for these other features and elements but He will make way for Christ; He made way for Him as He came into His public ministry and He is constantly making way for Him in the ministry in view of the sheep.

RW Would it be right to say that the idea of sovereignty is prominent in what you have brought to light in John’s writings, whereas when we come to Matthew the idea of responsibility is emphasized?

SMcC Yes. Matthew would stress the administrative side, our responsibility as moving in the light of the assembly, to think and to act for God. Matthew stresses the glory and the dignity of the assembly in the judicial aspect; John does not give us the assembly, except in the personnel. He never alludes to the assembly formally but he stresses the personnel, the persons who compose the assembly.

GWB Is it of note to observe in 1 Corinthians 13, where the apostle Paul brings forward the matter of love in its varied aspects, that he finishes up with the word “And now abide faith, hope, love; these three things; and the greater of these is love?”

SMcC Yes. Showing the value of love to the Corinthians. Love is the great feature that serves us in every position, whether at the beginning of the dispensation or at the end, love goes through.

CAI John does show the Lord in the Revelation moving in relation to the assembly in responsibility. Would you say a little as to that?

SMcC Well, the Lord takes up the matter of the assemblies in the opening chapters of the Revelation. It is not the vital side that He is dealing with but the responsible body here on earth. That is, persons who take up the place of honouring the name of Christ, persons who have bibles in their hands and who are baptised; the Lord is taking them up on that ground, as in Laodicea, and addresses them in that light. He holds them to their responsibility, as taking up that position.

CAI He regards them in the light of the testimony in christianity, even though they may not have a vital link with Him.

SMcC Exactly. They may not even be vitally in it at all. The Lord is dealing with the responsible body in the opening chapters of the Revelation. So in regard to Laodicea, he says, “I am about to spue thee out of my mouth.” I suppose open brethrenism would be largely Laodicean, and it gives us an idea of what the Lord thinks about it. “I am about to spue thee out of my mouth.” They are occupying a position, claiming to have the semblance of the truth; but they are not for Christ.

Ques Is the Lord seen here in the early verses of John’s gospel as serving His own?

SMcC Yes. The Lord would enlarge our viewpoint as to all his sheep, as it says, verse 10, “And I have other sheep which are not of this fold: those also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” That is, He has got sheep that are not of the Jewish fold, the Gentiles are in mind; we are in mind here in the other sheep which are not of this fold. The Lord is thinking about all the sheep, and there shall be one flock not two flocks, but one flock, one shepherd. This merges into the truth of Paul’s ministry of the body, the organism in the body.

TRH What you said of open brethrenism would be on the Matthew line and not on the John’s.

SMcC On the line of Matthew we could have nothing to do with what marks such persons linked with such a system, but on the line of John we think of our brethren as the sheep of Christ and the children of God abstractly. Concretely they are marked by different features and we are thinking of the great bearing of divine activities, the Lord dying, that the children of God scattered abroad might be gathered into one.

CAI So that what you have spoken of in regard to Laodicea being spued out of His mouth is one side. The other side of things is that He is going to gather every one of His own.

SMcC What he refers to there, Laodicea, is the profession, not the vital side. There are godly souls in all the systems around us. Some of us have known what it is to leave these systems with a broken heart, with tears, because of the links between us as children of God. But oh! the awfulness of the system, the terribleness of it, as infidel to Christ!

WHU On John’s line we would be ready to serve individuals that we meet, ready to serve them at any time.

SMcC You are available to serve souls, like the Lord going out of his way to the woman by the well of Sychar; not that you would go into the systems of men, the Lord can go where we cannot; we are limited by Matthew. The administrative side limits us in our links so that we cannot marry those that are linked with these associations because it is contrary to the administrative position; nor can we have social links with such, because it is contrary to the administrative position.

WHU I suppose we have to recognise that John deals very largely, almost exclusively, with that which is normal, while Matthew deals with a very great deal that is abnormal.

SMcC Well, he does. John deals with what is normal but in view of abnormal times. John’s ministry is written for abnormal times, while he is drawing our attention to what is normal in the sheep of Christ and the children of God.

Ques Do we only detect what is genuine in persons just as they are answering to the voice of Christ?

SMcC That is right, as they are subject to the truth, to the voice of Christ, speaking in whatever way He may speak. We can discern in what they say to us and how they move, what kind of link they have got. It is a great thing, of course, to be able to link on with souls in whatever knowledge they may have of divine Persons in view of helping them, not in view of going on with what they are thinking about, or what they are going on with, but linking on with the work of God, with a view to their extrication.

WHU Do you think we should be very careful and anxious to become acquainted with what is normal, otherwise we have no standard to judge by, have we?

SMcC Now what do you mean by that?

WHU I mean that in John we get the mind of the Lord and the mind of the Spirit presented to us, and if we have that we have a standard so that we can judge things as to abnormal matters.

SMcC Yes, that is what Mr. Darby meant in saying that in insisting on Paul, do not forget John. You see, to put Paul forward and put John in the background is not according to the truth. It is not cutting in a straight line the word of truth. We must carry John in insisting on Paul, because John writes when Paul’s ministry and what it set up has broken down publicly.

AM Would you say John gives the kind of spirit in which things are to be carried out, the spirit of Christ, the spirit of grace so that while cleaving to the divine principles that are laid down in connection with the assembly, yet the spirit of grace is to characterise us?

SMcC Well, exactly. John would help us as to that side and Matthew would balance us in the severity that there is in his gospel, and John would balance Matthew in relation to that severity, so that, if persons are withdrawn from on the administrative side, one or two do not say, “Oh well, we have got a little more grace than the rest of the brethren, we will link on sympathetically with them.” That will never do. Matthew regulates us on the administrative side, and John regulates Matthew, as it were, so that the balance of the truth is maintained between the two.

Ques Would the balance of the truth be seen in the virtuous woman where it says, “She seeketh wool and flax,” the wool speaking of the warmth of love and the flax speaking of fine linen which is the righteousness of the saints?

SMcC She is a woman of great balance. She is a remarkable woman, the virtuous woman, suggesting of course, the assembly. And the assembly is a great vessel, an intelligent vessel, like Abigail, she knows what to do.

Rem Do we get the two lines in Philemon, in the way that Paul acts with Onesimus? He expended love on him, and he says that he is serviceable to thee, and to me also; I was thinking of the way Paul acted with him; he acted in John’s line.

SMcC The epistle to Philemon is a wonderful epistle because it shows what a great man Paul was, and how he was prepared to concentrate his interest and his service on an individual soul. The man that writes the epistle to Philemon and speaks in such tenderness about Onesimus was the man that wrote 1st Corinthians, the man that wrote Ephesians and Colossians; and yet his interest is concentrated on a runaway slave, a remarkable thing, and his reinstatement with his master; not any longer in the flesh as a bondman but a brother bondman, a brother beloved.

DRT Does Paul, the aged, suggest the assembly in the day in which we live; it is the end, as it were, of the long years of experience? Are those features that come out there to mark the assembly in our day, do you think?

SMcC Well, I should not like to think of the assembly as aged. I think the assembly as indwelt by the Spirit does not grow old. Perhaps on the public side there may be something of what you suggest in things, but I should not like to apply the thought of aged to the assembly.

TRH Would you suggest that John’s ministry reaches morally what Matthew secures administratively? I mean that Judas is early designated in John, “Have not I chosen you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil,” and he goes out in the power of love. Matthew would bring that same matter to light administratively, that would be the public side.

SMcC Very good. I think that is interesting and especially to see how long the Lord goes on with Judas. The Lord knew who Judas was but He allows the thing to come out. You know we are so anxious sometimes to ferret things out. Mr. Taylor once said in an important matter that the Lord will never help us on the lines of seeking to discover evil. He will help us in dealing with evil as it expresses itself, but he will never help us on the line of trying to find it out, that is, to search persons and to search their circumstances. The Lord helps us in dealing with evil as it expresses itself, and that comes out in John’s ministry. The Lord goes on a long time with Judas, until it comes out.

GWB Is there not a grave danger of our interfering with what divine Persons may be doing, if we think, as you suggest, that the idea is to ferret out as over against what is disclosed?

SMcC Well, we do not want to stand in the way of what divine Persons are doing, and we are helped as we deal with evil as it becomes manifest and expresses itself.

LI So that at the end of John’s gospel, Peter is proved, is he not, but would you say that is the Lord’s work in a sense? He does that as the advocate to bring things to light in Peter and to adjust him.

SMcC That is a very good contrast in relation to what we have been saying, but if matters are to be proved we would leave the Lord to do the proving. We are not to do the proving; we are to leave the Lord to do it. Then, of course, the Lord took up Peter when he went the way he did with the others leading in the movement that brought them back to the fishing. The Lord took Peter up to fully adjust him in view of the beginning of the Acts.

WHU If we attempt to do the proving, are we not working on suspicions instead of working upon facts?

SMcC Well, exactly. The Lord can read people’s hearts, we cannot; hence the importance of the balance between Matthew and John, because if we took John we might say, “Oh well, it does not matter what is done to a person; we will go on with them and try to encourage them,” but that will not do, you see. Matthew comes in to regulate us on the administrative side, and if a person is withdrawn from we hold him abstractly in our minds as belonging to the sheep of Christ and the family of God, but Matthew would impress us with the fact that evil must be dealt with and Matthew’s side would regulate us in social links and relations.

AM The great thought of recovery would underlie the actions, would it not?

SMcC You mean in Matthew?

AM John’s ministry would help us on that line, would it not, and so in connection with feeding the multitude in John’s gospel it says “Gather up the fragments, that nothing be lost.”

SMcC In other words, in the operation of the judicial side in Matthew 18 what is in mind is the recovery of the person, the restoration of the person, because sin cannot go on unjudged. It must be judged, and if a brother has his attention drawn to sin and he refuses to judge it, he does not hear the brother, and the brother takes two more and he does not hear them, and it comes to the assembly, and he will not hear the assembly, the assembly must deal judicially with the matter; but it is dealt with in view of the recovery of the brother.

GWB Linking on the chapter as a whole, is there not a danger of our just taking the verses without recognising the importance both of the beginning and the ending of the chapter?

SMcC Well, we have to take the truth in its parts, and in the verses that we read the assembly is acting judicially in the matter, and if the person does not judge his sin, then he is to be unto us as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer. That is, the administrative viewpoint, not exactly that he is a brother, although that underlies the whole position in John’s ministry, but he is as a heathen, as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer. From Matthew’s viewpoint that is what he is, but from John’s viewpoint he belongs to the sheep of Christ, he belongs to the children of God; we hold him in our prayers in that relation, so that the truth is balanced.

WHW Then, are the last three verses of John 9 important in regard to what you are saying? Is it a matter of being able to see? I was struck with them as you were speaking. The Lord says in verse 39, “For judgment am I come into this world, that they which see not may see, and they which see may become blind,” and then “the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him, Are we blind also? Jesus said to them, If ye were blind ye would not have sin; but now ye say, We see, your sin remains.” Now is the Lord not suggesting there that if we are blind He will make us to see? If we take the ground of seeing, of being able to see, then we remain in our sin.

SMcC A very basic principle with John, that the Lord helps us if we want to be helped. He says “if any one desire to practise his will, he shall know concerning the doctrine.” That is the ground on which John would put things.

RGC Would Ezekiel 34, that great shepherd chapter, bear on John, and Ezekiel 43 bear on Matthew?

SMcC Very good, but the brethren generally may not know what you are referring to in Ezekiel 34 and Ezekiel 43, although I know what you are referring to, but it would be good if you just state what it is.

RGC I thought in Ezekiel 34: 22 allusion is made to what Caiaphas says, “I will save my flock, that they may no more be a prey,” and as regards the shepherd activities we were referring to, “I will seek the lost, and bring again that which was driven away.” On John’s line that is our attitude, is it not, seeking the lost, but in Ezekiel 43 he says there, does he not, “And if they be confounded at all that they have done, make known to them the form of the house.” If there be those who are concerned about their part in “departing from iniquity” we make known to them “the form of the house,” and we proceed towards them.

SMcC Very good. Ezekiel brings in the law of the house.

RGC So that bears on what you are saying, does it not, as to the concern to maintain holiness?

SMcC It bears on Matthew 18, so that on the line of John’s ministry we think of those who are not with us, and we are with divine Persons in regard to their salvation and recovery, and we would pray to God for them as belonging to the sheep of Christ, and as belonging to the children of God as our brethren in that light; but on Matthew’s line the administrative side would regulate us in our social links and intercourse. That is, “to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer.” That is, from Matthew’s viewpoint we can have nothing to do with them socially as still in that position.

Ques Not even if he were a relation of yours?

SMcC Not even if he were a relation, although of course if it were a child, I mean a young child in the house, brought up in the house, he would still be subject to his father’s care; but as regards persons that are apart from the house and related, the truth bears on them just as it does on others.

GAA Could you help us in the matter that we were looking at a moment ago? In the matter of application for fellowship, where the brethren may feel uneasy about a case where they feel there might be secondary motives in applying for fellowship. Are we entitled to look into motives?

SMcC What do you mean by a secondary motive?

GAA Well, they may have given expression to remember the Lord on the one hand and yet the brethren may feel they wish to come into fellowship having other things in mind.

SMcC Would the brethren have proof of it?

GAA Well, possibly.

SMcC Well, the thing would be to help the person to have pure motives. I remember hearing about a brother in a certain place, a policeman, who had an interest in a sister and wanted to marry her. The sister told him she could not marry him because she was breaking bread with the brethren, the Lord’s people, and he was not even converted, and that he would have to be a believer and would have to be breaking bread before she could ever enter into any link with him or anyone like him. He came to the brethren and asked to break bread and the brothers that he spoke to were very wise and asked him why he wanted to break bread, and he said because he wanted to marry that sister. Well, the brothers of course, could immediately see that something needed adjusting, but instead of rebuking him or setting him on one side, they took him in hand and preached the gospel to him and served him so that his motives were purified, and he became a good brother.

GAA Thank you, that helps the point.

GWB Going back to what you said a few moments ago as to relations, would you perhaps say a word to us in the case of a husband and wife, how it would affect that in a broad way?

SMcC How it would affect the husband or wife?

GWB Well, if a husband was withdrawn from, the behaviour of the wife, or vice versa.

SMcC Well, the husband is her head whether he is withdrawn from or not. Withdrawing does not alter the fact that the husband is the head. The man is the head. Even the unconverted man is the head of his house and if a sister has a husband who is unconverted she does well to recognise that he is the head in the house, although when the truth comes to bear on matters, her conscience in relation to God must be paid attention to.

GWB So exemplary behaviour on her part would suit her.

SMcC Well, exactly.

CAI What about the word in Matthew 18 in regard to “listening?” If he will not “listen,” and then to “them,” and then the “assembly.”

SMcC The point is to gain your brother. You do not want to convict him merely. That is involved, but you want to gain him, you want to save him, and all the operations have that in mind.

CAI So that the feelings and spirit that John would promote with us would underlie and enter into all that proceeds in Matthew 18?

SMcC Well, exactly. And some persons may feel they have been severely dealt with, but John’s line underlies it all. Just as Joseph has to speak roughly to his brethren because of their unrepentant condition, so with us the love side in John’s ministry, our relations with one another as the sheep of Christ and the children of God underlie all that, but Matthew would insist on the righteousness and therefore may seem severe.

GWB Would the matter of “hearing the assembly” make way for a word of appeal in an assembly meeting?

SMcC Why, certainly. The person should be there, the person against whom the charges are laid should be there, and the voice of the assembly should bear on them.

LI Reference was made earlier in the meeting to the Lord in the midst of the assembly in Revelation, but He is there as girt about the breasts with a golden girdle. The affections are there and the feelings are there, but there is a girding. Would that enter into Matthew 18?

SMcC Well, it would. That is why abstractly in the light of John your soul longs for them, your heart and your affections long for them. Matthew helps you to gird yourself in relation to the truth, because righteousness is involved, and we have to deal with evil.

WHU We have longings after those who perhaps are out of the way. Is that why we get in John that remission comes first, and in Matthew binding comes first, when it is a question of administration?

SMcC Very good. That helps to see the two sides of teaching in the Gospels. Now in regard to what we were saying on Saturday, we might be simple and plain about these matters, because it is a time for getting help and we are here to help one another. In regard to speaking of persons withdrawn from as a brother or a sister, we must keep in mind John’s ministry. It is important that we do not devaluate the currency. In a country, when the currency is devaluated it may involve what is serious, and thus in the light of Matthew we must not devaluate the currency. We must hold the expressions belonging to the truth on that proper level, and not devaluate things. Therefore it is important that if persons are referred to as belonging to the family of God it is because we are thinking of them abstractly along John’s lines, not concretely in the light of the administrative side of Matthew, where sin is marking them and they are withdrawn from.

Ques Would you say that the constant reference to the abstract truth in 1 Corinthians, while Paul speaks of the administration side there, would show that balance that he had in serving brethren at Corinth?

SMcC Well, exactly. He is constantly seeking to bring them to the abstract side, for although they had allowed such evil in their midst, such evil as was not even named amongst the nations, yet he recalls them to the abstract side. He speaks about purging “out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump according as ye are unleavened,” even with the very dealing with the matter he is insisting on the abstract side.

Rem So that even in the beginning of the Epistle he begins by going over what they were as sanctified, does he not?

SMcC Well, exactly.

RGC Would you mind saying a word about the question of “being such?” Would “being such” mean that the person goes on with a flagrant course, or could he “be such” by one act? Take for instance a thief.

SMcC Being such, would be a course, do you not think? It is not just an act by itself. It involved capital sin here in 1 Corinthians 5. It is a course of wickedness pursued so that it characterises a person, so that Paul does not say a word about repentance in the whole chapter.

RGC I think that is important.

CAI He does not speak about a man being drunk, he speaks about a “drunkard,” does he not?

SMcC Well, exactly, or a fornicator, or avaricious, or idolater, or abusive; it is what is characterising the persons.

RGC And well known to be such.

SMcC Well known to be such - “reported” as he says, and established by fact.

RGC So that a “fall” would not constitute that, would it? A person may suddenly fall into sin, be caught as it were.

SMcC No, you could not class that as a “course.” That might come under the heading of Galatians 6: 1. Of course full consideration would be given as to all facts in the matter, as to how great the degree of the thing is, because there are degrees in sin. We cannot classify all sins under one general heading. There are degrees in sin.

LI So that in a case such as 1 Corinthians 5, the procedure of Matthew 18 would not apply. Is that right?

SMcC Let us hear something more. Let us get what is exactly in your mind at this juncture.

LI Well, what is in my mind is this. If there is a course of sin such as 1 Corinthians 5 and the person is still going on with it and attached to the sin, there is no suggestion of repentance with Paul as you said, and does the scripture in Matthew 18 not come in for consideration?

SMcC Well, it would have to come in as to the mode of operation, would it not? That is, that it would have to come to the assembly? The assembly is the great vessel that can deal with such a matter. In that light it must come to Matthew 18, do you not think?

LI Well, what I really meant was one brother going first and seeing this person and then taking one or two besides. That part of the procedure was in my mind.

SMcC I see what you mean. Well, of course, Matthew 18 always affords light as to how to proceed with matters, but if a case of flagrant evil comes up in the assembly, there is always power in the assembly in the presence of the Spirit to deal with evil at any moment that it arises.

WHW You may deal with it quickly, summarily.

SMcC If it was such a case of evil where dishonour and disgrace was public, then the brethren would not have to wait another month before the next care meeting, but would proceed to look into it.

WHW Yes, I think we have acted on that in one particular case.

WHU But before the assembly deals with it, I suppose a care meeting would be called, though you would not wait for the monthly meeting.

SMcC Well, I suppose the case would have to be looked into and the facts laid out. The assembly does not investigate. The assembly meeting is never investigative. The assembly meeting is conclusive and executive.

RGC You need two or three witnesses who have interviewed accused?

SMcC So that in that way Matthew 18 would enter into the matter, just as a matter of procedure.

THR Is it not the basis for every assembly meeting? I mean in relation to what is judicial. Is Matthew 18 not the basis for the assembly coming together?

SMcC It is in the particular relation we are referring to.

LI There is just one point I would like to get clear. Supposing there is a serious case of evil and perhaps two are sent to investigate it and supposing the person “heard” at that point, would the matter cease just as it does in Matthew 18, or would it have to go to the assembly in view of forgiveness?

SMcC Well, it might have to go to the assembly. We must not leave out the assembly if it is the character of sin that requires the assembly to deal with. If it is a capital sin it must be brought to the assembly.

LI Well, we are glad to get that clear because there has been a suggestion that it may not have to, and one is thankful for your word.

SMcC If it is something, the character of sin such as we are speaking of, it would have to come to the assembly to be dealt with, because none of us must assume to deal with what the assembly should rightly deal with.

CAI That is, according to 1 Corinthians 5 is not the apostle bringing to bear upon the saints in Corinth a thing that was amongst themselves and that there is a matter of the leaven being purged out of the company?

SMcC That is, apparently, the company must have been leavened. It is a terrible thing when we think of it, and the action involved that in the dealing with the man they were to purge out the old leaven. Purge out the leaven linked with the evil.

Ques Would the leaven involve that it was in the minds of the saints and that it was known?

SMcC It would seem at Corinth, by all appearances and the facts presented in the Epistle, that it affected them. They were not mourning over it. They were doing nothing about it.

AI So that “a little leaven leavens the whole lump.”

SMcC Well, it does. That is obvious. That is what the passage says.

GWB So does that bring forward the solemnity of the necessity for an assembly meeting and the necessity of each one eating the sin offering?

SMcC Well, exactly. I think we should keep in mind this thought of devaluating the currency. That in regard to speaking about persons in some of these systems, we should not devaluate the currency. That is, we should not put them on the level that those that are in fellowship are on, as to Matthew’s side, but as to John’s side we hold them abstractly in the light of what they are as the sheep of Christ, and the children of God. At the rapture we will all be set together, brought together by divine power and we will all go up together, and we can well afford to pray for our brethren around us. There are many of them, and many of them are getting released. We should pray for them and we should serve them in any way we can without compromising the truth. Do not let us return to them. “Return not thou unto them,” Jehovah says to Jeremiah, “let them return to thee,” and we should be ready to serve them.

TRH You cannot devaluate the currency if you are on the gold standard.

SMcC Well, that is the point. You are not on the gold standard here, are you?

Rem No. We are not.

TRH The principle is there, is it not?

SMcC Yes.

WHW Does the ability to handle the truth abstractly enable the one who serves to rightly represent God in difficult positions amongst the brethren?

SMcC In Philadelphia the Lord has nothing less than the whole assembly in His mind. The only ground that we can take is in departing from evil in 2 Timothy 2 on moral grounds and moving in the light of the assembly and acting together in the light and according to the truth of the assembly. And we have divine Persons with us in it. The authority lies there.