DIVINE ADMINISTRATION IN EPHESIANS (4)

DIVINE ADMINISTRATION IN EPHESIANS (4)

Ephesians 4: 1 - 16; Ephesians 5: 25 - 29; Ephesians 6: 10 - 13

SMcC In considering what is proceeding from Christ as Man in heaven, functioning as He is in relation to the great administration working out from that point, we come to the great subject of the ministry in this 4th chapter and it will be noted how the thought of system enters into it. I mean, in using the word system, that things are not operating haphazardly, but on the principle of definite calculation, with definite ends and objectives in mind, the gifts bringing in the subsidiary side of the administration of Christ in heaven. The power that is linked with the position of the Lord in heaven is working out in this administration through the gifts, involving what is called the work of the ministry, having in mind the perfecting of the saints and the edifying of the body of Christ, until we all arrive at the unity of the faith, a great objective in mind. Then the thought of Christ as the Head and the body follows that, and then in chapter 5 the constant and abiding activity of the love of Christ in His care for the assembly, the great working out of the administration in a hidden and secret way in the service of the love of Christ for the assembly. In chapter 4 the power, in flowing from Christ on high, would bring in more what is testimonial. The 5th chapter brings in the hidden side of Christ’s active love in caring for the assembly. Then the closing word in regard of the conflict, in answer to all the light that has been presented in the epistle, as Paul says “Be strong in the Lord and in the might of his strength.” Then the verse we finished with, “and having accomplished all things, to stand.” That is, as Mr. Darby points out, to carry through and put into execution all that is purposed and called for in spite of opposition. These are the thoughts we should keep before us in our inquiry, pursuing an orderly inquiry but making room for the Spirit to help us in the filling out of the truth.

The chapter we began with opens with a definite appeal to the saints “to walk worthy of the calling wherewith ye have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love; using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace,” a needful word, dear brethren, in relation to all that we have been considering together, that there should be the need on our side of holy concern as to these features that Paul refers to here.

GHR Would you say a word as to Paul being a prisoner of the Lord here as over against the prisoner of the Christ Jesus?

SMcC I think it brings in here that he is in full acceptance, in a subject way, of the position. He is not chafed in his spirit, he is not irritated as in the circumstances; he is in the circumstances involving such limitations for him, in full acceptance of the position, as subject to the Lord.

PC No doubt the thought of “prisoner” entered into the appeal.

SMcC Yes. We are to remember the circumstances in which he was.

GRD Is the thought of sonship brought forward into this verse “the calling wherewith ye have been called” in its bearing on the testimonial side?

SMcC Yes. It is the walk here, our walk, “to walk worthy of the calling wherewith ye have been called.” The dignity of our calling would thus be indirectly alluded to, and we are to walk worthy of it. That is, it is a question now of what we are in our walk.

CAI Would Paul’s own personality, his own distinctiveness and personality and features that were with him in the 3rd chapter now bring that to bear upon us so that these features, lowliness and meekness and such things should be found with us in our personality?

SMcC Yes. “Bearing with one another in love, using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace.” These features would come into view in relation to the keeping of the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace.

WHW Does the prisoner of the Lord bear on the captive position, which under the Lord’s hand, opens up a free way for the Lord to function in the way in which you have spoken?

SMcC Yes. That where there is subjection to limitations, such as we have to face in our time, the Lord is allowed a free hand to move in relation to what He is carrying on in His functioning on high.

GAA Would the apostle’s word carry weight, and would these features have marked him?

SMcC Well, they did. We were referring to some of them this morning, “less than the least of all saints.” What lowliness was there, what meekness, the meekness and gentleness of Christ; not asserting in any way his own will but prepared to stand with his back to the wall in relation to the truth.

WJB Like the Lord, prophetically spoken of in Isaiah 50, he says, “I was not rebellious: I turned not away back.”

SMcC Yes. That is meekness in its true character. It says, later again in the 53rd chapter, “He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,” suggesting in the lamb the figure of meekness that was there, yet facing all that was involved in the suffering.

MRJM Would this be the filling out of verse 10 in chapter 2, “For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has before prepared that we should walk in them”?

SMcC Yes. The teaching of chapter 2 rightly comes into chapter 4 because chapter 3 is really a parenthesis.

CSK Does it suggest that without the features of lowliness and meekness we will never arrive at the unity of the Spirit nor the unity of the faith? I was thinking of the service, the ministers you speak of in the service, is that the first thing that comes into it?

SMcC Yes, they are essential qualities in keeping with our calling and becoming a moral support for us in going on together. It is a great thing that we should go on together, that is what the Lord is aiming at. The enemy has operated, the brethren can see it. He had great objectives in mind as to separating the brethren in their feelings and affections, not only here but all over he operates on that principle. The chapter here is to help us to see, specially in our time, in view of the imminence of the rapture, the need of going on together, using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace.

CFI Is that a unity that is established with the presence of the Spirit here?

SMcC Yes. It is maintained inviolate through the dispensation. The unity of the Spirit is invulnerable, never contemplated as breaking. Abstractly it is maintained inviolate through the dispensation and if only two are walking in it, it still is the unity of the Spirit.

WHW Is it the uniting bond of peace that we are exhorted to keep?

SMcC That is it. In the uniting bond of peace the unity of the Spirit is there. The thing is that there should be the exercise on our part to keep it in the uniting bond of peace.

AMcKH In what way does diligence come in?

SMcC I think it involves that we are on the outlook for everything that would operate against this spiritual intangible link among the brethren; because the unity of the Spirit does not exactly refer to what is public. It is more the hidden inward side which holds us together in the Spirit’s presence, because the world neither knows the Spirit, nor sees the Spirit.

PB Is it like the middle bar that went through the boards of the tabernacle?

SMcC Something like that. The way that the brethren are held together in a spiritual way.

CAI This element of peace is very important for us to understand then?

SMcC Well, it is. You notice what Mr. Darby says in this relation. He says it is not only bond but the bond-together. It is not the power of union, that is the Holy Spirit, but the practical uniting in fact as amongst men. The uniting bond of peace would be the testimonial side; the unity of the Spirit is the hidden side.

TRH Should this characterise the saints and would such a suggestion as this keep Matthew 18 in the background?

SMcC I suppose Matthew 18 is part of the truth. Perhaps you have in mind that we should not make use of it in the way use has been made of it.

TRH I was thinking, that it is held in reserve if necessary, but if these features characterise the saints there should be ability to set matters right without it.

SMcC We should get this point clear because Matthew 18 presents the assembly in a wonderful light. It is the assembly in judicial glory. Just as the judiciary of New Zealand is a wonderful department of the Government and as in the United States it is a wonderful part of the Government, so the assembly in Matthew 18 sets out a wonderful glory linked with the assembly on the side of what is judicial.

WJB Love operating in various stages and culminating in the assembly’s appeal in Matthew?

SMcC Exactly. Not the judicial side operating so much in the way of penalising - that may enter into the matter - but operating with a view to the solution of the question of good and evil that good might be set in its place and evil in its place.

CSK Is it noticeable that chapter 18 of Matthew begins with the spirit of a little child, like this chapter here, lowliness and meekness?

SMcC Well, exactly. It corresponds in that the working out of the administration in Matthew would involve this kind of spirit, care for one another, the matter of the sheep that is referred to in the body of the chapter relating to bearing with one another in love as it says here.

CFI Is that something that will stand the strain? Bearing with one another in love, suggests that we might be called on to bear with something.

SMcC It is interesting what you refer to; bearing the strain, standing the strain. Oftentimes our relations together are taxed and alas sometimes we fail when they are taxed. One thing that marks the book of Numbers in its typical teaching, is this thought of bearing ability, bearing capacity, in care for the saints and care for the truth.

MRJM “Abundantly loving you I shall be less loved.” Is that the expression of it, to the Corinthians?

SMcC And in regard to what was referred to no doubt what was in mind was that Matthew 18 has been used far beyond what it was intended to be used, in prosecuting one another, which is not the intent of Matthew 18. Matthew 18 is the glory of the assembly in administration on judicial lines.

CAI Normally it would work out in this way towards the uniting bond of peace.

SMcC Yes. Having in mind the preservation of peace in our relations with one another and among the saints.

GRD So that “if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother” would be in keeping with the uniting bond of peace, would it?

SMcC And as we have said at different intervals along the way, if there is any place where the believer should have a sense of being secure and protected it is in the assembly as Matthew views it.

WHW So that in the 1st book of Kings, as has already been noted, in Solomon’s regime there were 70,000 burden bearers, but then in Nehemiah’s day, which was a day of recovery, the burden bearers were there too.

SMcC Nehemiah says in a unique way in the 10th chapter that they made ordinances to tax themselves, to support the administration of the house of God, a great thing, the love in Nehemiah. We might think of Nehemiah as a kind of a hard man but he was a man that was prepared to lay down his life for the people of God. They made ordinances to tax themselves for the support of the administration of the house of God.

LI You mentioned in Blenheim, “the cherubim stretched forth their wings over the place of the ark.” Would that be in line with what you have in your mind as to judicial glory in Matthew?

SMcC That is it exactly, the protecting of divine rights which works as much on the positive side as it does on the negative side. It involves that a brother and a sister should be rightly cared for in the assembly, if the matter comes up. Some of our young people may grow up to think that the assembly is a place where they have to be brought and dealt with. We want to inculcate into their minds the fact that the safest place on earth is in the assembly. The place where they will be protected is in the assembly, and there should be the witness and testimony to that in the operation of things amongst us.

GHR Would the 17th verse of the 3rd chapter where it says “being rooted and founded in love” be a basis for this operation in this chapter?

SMcC Yes, it would. You can only work out the public side properly from the spiritual and heavenly side. So the chapter goes on. It is interesting that the moral universe should be brought in, the stability and fixity of the moral universe; as it says, “There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.” The order in the moral universe is thus presented, leading us to the supremacy of the Father, who is the Governor of the universe.

GP The unity of the Spirit and the oneness, one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one God and one Father; all that is stressed before the variety of gifts is brought in to reach one end?

SMcC Yes, and it is touching, the allusion to the body and the Spirit. The body involves the eternal side, not only the provisional side. In 1 Corinthians 12, the body is referred to as a figure of speech, and sets out the provisional idea of it, but when we come to Ephesians, the body involves the eternal side as well as the provisional side, and it is touching to take account of the way the body and the Spirit are linked together, because the Spirit has not become incarnate, like the Lord Jesus, but there is in the body, a vehicle for His right of way in regard to His operations.

PB Why is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” linked together?

SMcC Well, I think it is to impress us as to what we have been committed to in the kingdom position. We get these concentric circles, referring our minds to the fixedness of things in the moral universe.

WHW Do these references have a bearing back on what we have been seeing is of the assembly in chapter 3?

SMcC I think so. They reflect back on what we have been going over. We need to have our eyes opened in faith to see the moral universe. The world does not understand it. We are in a position of advantage in that the one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all, He is in us all. The saints of the assembly in this dispensation have a peculiar advantage in that He is in us by the Spirit.

AJC We do not make this, do we?

SMcC It is a statement of what exists. It is fixed.

GAA Do we see the working out of it in verse 16? Is that the functioning of what we are dealing with now?

SMcC Well, that is an allusion to one item in the moral universe, the body. The body is a great item in the moral universe. One body and one Spirit and it has a peculiar place, and verse 16 would bring in how it works out practically among the saints.

CFI Is one important item in this administration you have been referring to touched on here, in relation to the gifts, that divine thoughts might be arrived at in the saints by way of ministry?

SMcC The whole chapter is full of the theme of administration beginning with this thought of the moral universe, the great basis in the one body and the one Spirit, then the great working out of the administration in the one Lord, one faith, one baptism, working out even to the physical universe. Because the administration in relation to Christ in heaven, not only involves the moral but the physical universe.

PB Are you referring to verse 6?

SMcC The Lord Jesus upholds all things by the word of His power.

PB Would you say a little more as to one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all?

SMcC Well, I think a sense of the fixity of the moral universe would help us when things are working out, when the storms rise and the ship may be filled with the waves; it is a great thing to be steadied in our souls in the sense of the fixedness of the administration linked with the moral universe.

WHW So that when the gifts are operating in ministry, this lies behind what they say. It should be in our minds as we receive what they say.

S.McC Because the gifts are really subsidiary administrators. Christ supremely is the great Administrator in heaven and the gifts are subsidiary administrators and the authority of Christ is involved in the ministry in that way.

CAI Would this be seen somewhat in David as leaving Jerusalem at the time of Absalom’s rising up; what he did in regard to the ark, sending it back to Jerusalem that God’s thoughts might be maintained, and if He delighted in David He would bring him back again?

SMcC The ark, rightly speaking, is the centre of the universe according to God and David recognised that there was the fixed unity linked with that position and he would not allow it to be entrenched upon.

AMcKH In the working out of the truth of the one body, does it begin firstly in our localities?

SMcC Certainly. The truth in working out practically, always begins with those that are nearest to us, which is an important thing, because sometimes we might think that we would get on better with the brethren in another locality, but the truth is to work out first in relation to those that are nearest to us.

CSK Do feelings lie behind all that? We speak of love, but feelings, sympathy and tenderness, lie in that thought of the one body, do they not, in regard of our relations with one another locally?

SMcC Yes, because the body is not an organisation but an organism, replete, through the presence of the Spirit, with spiritual sensibilities so that we are inwardly affected, mysteriously affected, in the body by what is in one another, by impulses that may surge through the body.

CSK We would be like the Spirit Himself; how tender and feeling and sympathetic He is to us?

SMcC What a part the body should have in meetings like these! The hidden reserves and wealth that are latent in the body and need to be tapped and drawn upon. That is the relation of the gifts to the body, the body representing the hidden reservoir of spiritual wealth among the brethren.

CSK Do we have to take account, in many ways, of things abstractly, because of conditions in our day, but locally we should be able to have these things practically, you would say?

SMcC Yes, so that the body should not be just an ecclesiastical matter with us, it is to work out in our localities in sensitive relations with one another.

WHW Would verses 9 and 10 bear on the authority that is in the ministry?

SMcC They do. The whole section here from verse 8 “Wherefore he says, having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive and has given gifts to men. But that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things; and he has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints.” It is remarkable to take account of the ministry as embodying the power, flowing from Christ on high, in the power of the Spirit through the ministry.

WHW It would seem that the flock is in view here again. You will remember what you said at Blenheim. We were mostly touched by it I think. You were referring to Philippians, and Christ exalted to the right hand of God. Underneath the truth of Philippians was the administrative thought that appears here again, does it?

SMcC Yes, the saints are in mind. They are the great object of divine care in the working out of this administration. Not only the gifts, but it says, verse 7, “But to each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ,” so that every one from the youngest among the saints has part in this great administration working out from Christ in heaven.

AJC Is it the thought of the same One, the One who descended is the same One who ascended; the same Jesus shall come?

SMcC Yes, so that we are reminded that what comes to us in the administration is based on what it involved for Him in the path of suffering love.

AJC Is the whole system that we have before us now coloured by that same Jesus? Verse 20 in that chapter speaks of the truth as it is in Jesus, the Lord on high is no different from what He was here.

SMcC No; He is the same Jesus. He has laid down His life in relation to the condition He took up when becoming Man but He has taken His life in new conditions.

RGC If each has something, there should be mutuality, and room should be made for gift if it is there.

SMcC The whole section here gives a wonderful balance to what there is in the body and what is linked with gift, one subserving the other in relation to bringing out the fulness of divine resource, spiritual resource in this administration.

CSK Is this matter of having ascended on high and led captivity captive, giving gifts to men, the result of the great conflict of the Lord’s death, and the distribution of spoils administratively to the assembly, by these gifts?

SMcC It is a wonderful thing to think of the Lord going to heaven and this great administration working out because all the gifts came with the Spirit at Pentecost. It is good to remember that the Lord went on high, ascended up on high, leading captivity captive, and gave the gifts, and they all came here with the Spirit at Pentecost. The position involved this remarkable power, the power of the ascended Man, flowing through the, subsidiary administrators in Peter, John and Paul and others.

FW I wanted to ask why these particular gifts are mentioned. Some that are named here are not mentioned in Corinthians.

SMcC Well, no doubt the introduction of the evangelist for instance would convey to our hearts that the evangelist has a peculiar place in relation to the enjoyment of the heavenly side of the truth. Paul could not refer to the gift of evangelist in Corinth, no doubt because of conditions existing; the gospel calls for good conditions among the saints.

FW Sign gifts and gifts of tongues are mentioned in Corinthians.

SMcC Yes, the public testimony would be more in view in the sign gifts. The enriching of the assembly, the endowment as J.B.S. called it, is more in mind here. The rich way in which the assembly is endowed would be more in mind here.

FW Perhaps we could not claim today the sign gifts, could we, but what we have here is still available?

SMcC Well, we do not have the apostles; they entered into the inaugural side, and the sign gifts. We do not have either today.

JBT It says in Corinthians they came short in no gift. It is striking then that the gift of the evangelist is not mentioned.

SMcC Well, it strengthens in our minds the necessity for good conditions for the gospel to go out.

GRD Would you say a word on the Psalm from which this is quoted, “hast received gifts in Man?” I wondered if you would say something as to the relation of the gifts to the Lord Himself? It says here “has given gifts to men.”

SMcC The Psalm from which this is quoted is one of the most wonderful psalms that David wrote. The 68th Psalm is full of triumph and the greatness of God, and conveys to us what divine resource can do, as for instance in verse 13 “Though ye have lain among the sheepfolds yet ye shall be as wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with green gold.” It is the idea of what divine resource can do despite the conditions, and the gifts represent irrepressible power, you might say, among the saints, despite what may obtain.

PB Over against systematized error, would you say?

SMcC It is to be noted how the gifts stand in relation to this matter, what they are to have in mind in their service, standing in relation to the saving of the saints from systematized error, systematized, not just error coming out in a remark, but a whole system of teaching which is really against the truth.

WHW Would you think, perhaps, the evangelists are brought in here because of the necessity that the saints should be maintained in the grace of God, if they are to move along on the high level of the truth that we have here.

SMcC The more Ephesian we are, the more we enjoy the truth on the heavenly side, the more evangelical we are. If the brethren in localities lose the appreciation of the gospel, well, it is a question whether they really are enjoying the truth in Ephesians at all; because the more we are enjoying the truth on the heavenly side, the more evangelical our outlook is.

MRJM Did not Mr. Darby say that if we want the gospel to prosper, pray for the assembly?

SMcC Yes. The word evangelist comes from the word “evangel,” which means glad tidings.

HB Would you say a little as to the gift of the evangelist being for the edifying of the body of Christ? We could more readily connect the other gifts with that. Just how does the gift of the evangelist work in relation to the edifying of the body of Christ?

SMcC Well, that is interesting, because we are inclined to have low thoughts of the gospel. You will notice that in each of the chapters we have read up till now the gospel is mentioned in some way or another - in every chapter in the first three of Ephesians. It is a great subject, the glad tidings, an exalted subject, and in its fulness involves teaching, involves that the saints should be instructed in God’s approach to us.

CSK Because it represents God.

SMcC Because it represents God and we are to act like God, so that as the teaching of the gospel has its way amongst us, we act like God.

AMcKH So that in the presentation of it the heavenly side should be brought in.

SMcC Well, it should. There should be stress on the assembly and on the Spirit, and on sonship and eternal life in the glad tidings because all these things are involved in the fulness of the glad tidings.

GRD The service of the evangelist is not only towards the unconverted?

SMcC No, it certainly is not. Sometimes it is said,

that we did not have any stranger in tonight, there was not much encouragement to carry on the preaching; but the saints need the gospel, the saints need to be enlarged in regard to the administration of the grace of God.

GWB Is there not a delivering power in the glad tidings being told forth in their fulness?

SMcC Yes, there is.

TRH “We have sent with him the brother whose praise is in the glad tidings.” Is that another side to it?

SMcC Well, it is very interesting that Paul refers to that in regard to the administration of the money. He names Titus, but he does not name this other brother, save to say that his praise is in the glad tidings.

CSK We may be discouraged in our day if we have not an evangelist locally, but Paul counsels Timothy in his day, does he not, to do the work of an evangelist - the onerous work it may involve.

SMcC Exactly. It is a great matter that the open air work should be rightly supported, a great thing that as the rapture draws near, the young men should be fully supported and encouraged and helped in the maintenance of the preaching of the gospel.

GNB Do you mean by support, others being present?

SMcC Yes.

CAI You referred some time back to the irresistible power that is manifest in regard to these gifts; would you say something more in regard to that?

SMcC Well, it is the power linked with the ascended Man that is flowing down through the operation of the ministry and it is irresistible in that way, irrepressible you might say.

CAI Does that involve that He has ascended far above all heavens?

SMcC Well, it is a remarkable allusion to the greatness of the Person; He is a divine Person because no one but a divine Person could go there.

CAI So that the operation of this power is flowing from Him in that way.

SMcC And then it has in mind, until we all arrive at the unity of the faith. Now it is a great matter that the saints should arrive at the thought of the unity of the faith, to which the administration is directed in the work of the ministry. That means, that we all think and say the same things. We are marked by the same apprehension of the truth in a general way.

WHW Would the unity of the faith be like the heavenly pattern? Moses was enjoined in regard of the building of the tabernacle that it was to be according to the pattern given to him on the mount.

SMcC Yes. So that while each gift would have a distinctive impression of Christ, and it is not for us to compare the gifts, for comparisons are odious, we have to bear in mind that there is infinite variety in the work of the ministry in that way, but there is this idea of the pattern, the unity of the faith which governs all the ministry.

ATS Would you say something about what follows, the knowledge of the Son of God - why that is brought in in connection with this unity?

SMcC Well, I think it is to bring out what a prime matter this is, that the Son of God has come into manhood and as such He has become a standard for manhood according to God, and all the ministry is directed towards bringing us to that standard, the knowledge of the Son of God over against the development of what is around us in the world. This is manhood in relation to another world of which the Son of God is the centre.

PRC As regards the open air, would it be in order to sing a gospel message?

SMcC Well, I would not commend singing in the open air.

PRC What do you think about Job 38, verse 7, would that be a warrant for the singing of a gospel message?

SMcC Well, of course Paul and Silas sang in prison. They sang before men, but I do not think there is much in our singing to commend itself in public testimony on the street - the brethren will pardon the reference - the singing is not just exactly something to be presented in testimony in that way, because it is the preaching that involves power in the message which is a little bit different from the singing.

FW Would you keep to the higher elevated thoughts in the preaching in the open air?

SMcC Well, they would be in your mind, they are there basically in your soul. You would remind men, of course, taking account of the audience that you are speaking to; you would measure your message accordingly. You would not go out into the open air and speak about the saints being blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ, although that is there in your soul and colouring what you are saying.

LI Do you think the same would apply to singing, because it says we sing in the spirit in Corinthians? It is a question of entering into the matter?

SMcC It is more the link I think with the inside position and then it says, “at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ.” Now this brings us again to the import of the Gospels, because I suppose we would have to go to the Gospels to get the fulness of the Christ. It is shining out there, it is a reference to Him in manhood.

GHR Would the reference in John 8 to the truth setting you free and the Son setting you free connect with this? I thought of the greatness of the Son.

SMcC Yes, it has a liberating effect, the knowledge of the Son of God has a liberating effect, detaching us from this world and attaching us to that world, and the resurrection from the dead.

CFI The idea of the full manhood “at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ” referring to the four gospels would maintain balance, would it?

SMcC It would. “The measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ.” This divine objective in the work of the ministry is important. The saints are to be brought to that.

CFI We need to have this divine objective as set out in these verses constantly in view - what has been reached through ministry, the edifying of the body of Christ, the knowledge of the Son of God, the full grown man.

SMcC Especially that we should be preserved from isolationist thinking. The unity of the faith would help us that we might all be ministering the same thing in view of the saints being unified as to the truth.

ATS Would you say something more about the expression “measure of the stature”? Would you enlarge on the meaning of that, please?

SMcC Well, I think it is alluding to the divine standard that we have in the Gospels, the four Gospels would give us the great standard in regard of stature. Stature would be an allusion to manhood, the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ. Think of it as in Christ, what wonderful stature is there in the Gospels.

MRJM The various writers write with great variety. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, yet each has a character which is distinct in itself. Would you say that it would all enrich our expressions in the service of God if we knew more of this?

SMcC Yes, and while there is infinite variety on the one hand, there is wonderful uniformity on the other - an interesting thing to notice in these matters.

WHW So that there are gifts and power coming down from the ascended Man in view of the features that were seen in that Man in humiliation being reproduced in the personnel of the assembly.

SMcC That is what would be in mind in the ministry - the reproducing in the saints, through the Spirit’s formative work, the features of manhood seen in Jesus.

JBT Would that preserve the saints from this systematized error? Would it be something like Christian Science or would it be more subtle than that?

SMcC Well, it would be one of the things that it involves. We have to be very careful about any kind of teaching which carries error through it. You take the matter of Newton’s teaching in regard to the sufferings of Christ in Plymouth, 120 years or so ago. It was systematized, it was not just that an address was given in which a slip was made but woven through all the lectures and the series of meetings were the references to Christ that were adverse and derogatory to His glory. It is systematized in that way. Systematized means that it is not just mistaken. Many of us may say something that we have to be adjusted in relation to, but if a thing is kept up and we are pressing it and following it through, it may become systematized.

CSK On the other hand the truth mentioned here, holding the truth in love would be in relation to the administration from on high, would it not? It is a system itself of glory and of grace.

SMcC Well, it is. That is, we have the right kind of system in what we have been referring to in the first part of the chapter and what we come to here, “holding the truth in love, we may grow up to him in all things, who is the head.” It is a system that is permeated by this rich quality of love, mentioned so much in this letter.

CSK So that it is more than just true things?

SMcC Yes. It is holding the truth in love. The Holy Spirit in John’s gospel, chapters 14 to 16, is referred to as the Spirit of truth. There is not only the truth but there is the Spirit of truth - what underlies it.

CSK Would the truth be suggested as being within the radius of the 4th verse, one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and so on?

SMcC Yes, the truth is regulating in that way, regulating and adjusting. Grace is supplying.

CFI Is the thought of mutuality specially stressed in these last two verses? It says, “we may grow up to him ... who is the head, the Christ: from whom the whole body, fitted together, and connected by every joint of supply, according to the working in its measure of each one part.” Is the whole body now functioning in love?

SMcC Love is the great motivating thing here; holding the truth in love, then the increase of the body to its self-building up in love. We need to make greater room for this thought of love amongst us. It has a prime place in this administration because the administration that will be carried on throughout eternity, that the assembly will have part in, is the administration of love.

CFI What is the thought of “joint of supply?” Is every member thus to be a joint through whom this positive supply may flow?

SMcC So that we are all to see to it that we are functioning in our place according to our part in this wonderful organism. No one is missed out, there is room for everybody in it.

CAI Each one to be functioning in love?

SMcC Exactly.

GAA An indispensable part would you say?

SMcC Indispensable part, yes. Each part is necessary so that we do not write off persons. We want to view the saints in our localities in the light of the organism, that each brother and sister is a constituent member, a component part of this organism.

CFI We do not want to write ourselves off in that way, do we?

SMcC No. We do not want to minimise things in relation to ourselves to the extent that we elect ourselves out of it; we are part of it and we want to fill out our part in it.

RLP Does Mr. Darby’s note help, “The article denotes a known supply from Christ, sufficiently known to be referred to, to which also the ‘from whom’ lends force”?

SMcC That is an interesting note there. “The word ‘supply’ ... has the emphatic article and it might read, ‘that supply which is according to.’ The article denotes a known supply from Christ.” It shows what we have been seeking to call attention to, the functioning of Christ’s administration in heaven, working out in a commensurate way down here in the body in the power of the Spirit.

CAI The recognition of the headship of Christ would involve our recognition of those that the Lord has qualified to help the saints?

SMcC Yes.

ATS You spoke earlier of verse 4, the aspect from which the body is viewed there being the eternal aspect. Would you say something about the viewpoint in verse 16. Is it limited to what is provisional or does the eternal viewpoint extend into this?

SMcC I think the body of Christ as viewed in Ephesians is an eternal matter. While it is looking on to conditions here at the present moment, the body is something that goes through. It is an entity that goes through into eternity according to Ephesians.

AB Would you say that the weak member of the body is in the gain of all that is in the body?

SMcC That is the truth. As to their position in the body they are in the presence of all that belongs to the body; as to their enjoyment of it, of course, that might bring up another side.

MRJM I was just going to inquire, do we find joyously at times, souls perhaps have not been going on and then you find they get a touch from the Lord and they go on and they derive from Christ and you see love in operation and their part in the meetings is enriched and they edify the body? It is consciously felt, would you agree?

SMcC Well, I think that is right. And I think it is a great thing that our activities should be directed towards promoting the interest of every member of the body in his or her part and place in the body. That no one in our local gathering should have a feeling that he or she is out of it, that it is all in the hands of two or three. In our localities the thought of the body should be promoted. Even suppose there are the hidden members that do not take part - the wealth that is resident in them is all contributing to the prosperity of the gathering.

CSK It says it works for itself; we expect God to do much and He does, but this works for itself!

SMcC That is one scripture that shows us how the assembly may be regarded as a complete entity by itself.

MRJM Might we say the gifts merge in the body here?

SMcC They do, because after all, our place in the body and our place in the family is greater than our place in the ministry.

MRJM So that the disciples with their effective service were drawn aside by the Lord, as you said this morning, “Come ye yourselves apart ... and rest a little,” but further he says, “rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens.”

SMcC Stressing the importance of that side over against public service. It is a poor thing for any of us who may have any little part in the work of the ministry, if we live in it. If we do so, we will be building up our reputation and when that reputation is assailed, everything goes. We want to live in the dignity that is ours in our links with the saints in the family of God.

The allusion to the love of Christ in Ephesians 5 should affect our souls from another angle now. The unceasing personal activity and ministry of Christ in the constancy of His love in caring for us as of the assembly as it says, verse 29, “For no one has ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as also the Christ the assembly.” We need to get into our souls a little more of this nourishing and cherishing service, the warmth of love that in its circulation is linked with it. What a wonderful thing it is to be in the assembly, to be in this wonderful entity that is the object of the direct love of Christ in its activity at the present time.

HB Does the exhortation, the word in Deuteronomy 24: 5, apply? “When a man hath newly taken a wife, he shall not go out with the army, neither shall any kind of business be imposed upon him; he shall be free for his house one year, and shall gladden his wife whom he hath taken.” Is that an allusion to what we have here in Ephesians?

SMcC You are thinking now of the links between the man and the woman in that way. Like Isaac who was not a busy man like Joseph, as we have been taught. He was a man of leisure who enjoyed Rebecca,

and the touches of affection between Isaac and Rebecca are interesting in that light, whereas Joseph presents more the administrative side and the fulness of activity linked with it.

DRT Is what is sacrificial linked with delivering Himself up?

SMcC Oh certainly. The cross of Christ is involved in this word, because the side of purpose and the moral side are linked together here. It says, “Christ also loved the assembly.” That is, the assembly is a divine conception, conceived in purpose. He had it before Him, and as having it before Him He delivered Himself up for it. That is, He gave Himself in death, the cross comes into it.

EWC Would it be on the line of “my body which is for you”?

SMcC Yes that would enter into it, the love that is presented to us in the Supper. We should just finish with the word “and having accomplished all things to stand,” verse 13. That is, as Mr. Darby points out, to carry through and put into execution all that is purposed and called for. That is, nothing is left that should be done in regard to the maintenance of the truth.