ASSURED OF THE TRUTH

^[p. 114] ASSURED OF THE TRUTH

Genesis 15; 2 Timothy 4: 1 - 5

JT What is in mind is that we should become assured of the truth; Abraham sought to know. And so it is that we have so much about knowledge in the chapter we read from Genesis. It affords the first thought of the word of God as such, not the Scriptures exactly, but the word of God. This chapter speaks of it for the first time in Scripture, and that is why it is proposed now, because it indicates that God would assure Abram by His word, His own word. And so the passage in 2 Timothy is suggested because it tells Timothy to preach the word, that is the word of God, to do the work of an evangelist. The work of the evangelist would evidently take the form, if not entirely, certainly largely, of the preaching of the word. Other things, of course, would be found in the service of the evangelist, or the person who is said to do the work, for Timotheus is not exactly called an evangelist, he is to do the work of an evangelist. So it is to take the character of preaching the word, the word of God. It is thought that looking into Genesis 15 will help us in a general way as to assurance; assurance which comes through the word of God. Hence it is said, Abram said, “Lo, to me thou hast given no seed, and behold, a son of my house will be mine heir. And behold, the word of Jehovah came to him, saying, This shall not be thine heir, but he that will come forth out of thy body shall be thine heir. And he led him out, and said, Look now toward the heavens, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them. And he said to him, So shall thy seed be!” This is a word of assurance. “And he believed Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness”, and then Jehovah said to him,

“^[p. 115] I am Jehovah who brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give thee this land to possess it. And he said” (that is Abram), “Lord Jehovah, how shall I know that I shall possess it?” So that the matter is in this way set before us, God’s side of the matter, and Abram’s, and we shall see that Abram’s side requires what would be regarded or should be regarded as subjective knowledge.

Ques When you speak of the word, you said ‘not the Scriptures exactly’. Have you in mind that which is living and powerful?

JT Just so. The word of God is living and powerful.

Ques That could hardly be said of the Scriptures?

JT Well, they would be that, of course, by the Spirit, as the Spirit uses them, as any of us uses them by the Spirit. But we have to distinguish between the word of God and the Scriptures nevertheless. “The word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is not a creature unapparent before him; but all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do”, Hebrews 4: 12, 13. That is the idea of the word which we should keep before us, but clearly what we have in Genesis bears on Abram’s daily circumstances having a prophetic character and an assuring character to Abram.

Ques Does the victory secured in chapter 14 bring to light the need of an heir that the land should be inherited?

JT Well, no doubt Abram felt the need of it before, he alludes to Eliezer and calls him the son of his house, that is, born a domestic servant. So that it would be in Abram’s mind that it should be a son, not a domestic servant, and, of course, when we come down the lines of the truth, Christ is the Son.

Ques Did God’s first word to Abram encourage him to raise this question as to an heir, “Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward”? Then Abram raises the question of an heir, does he not?

JT Yes, and undoubtedly God intended that he should. It would keep him from any natural efforts or subterfuges. It was God speaking, as we might say, to His child, and though the idea of the children of God came in later, yet Abram was born of God in that sense, he was one of God’s children, and he was to be assured. It would take time to bring out all the facts. The gospel of Matthew enters on them, beginning with Abraham, forty-two generations were required to bring out the facts, showing how God will have His own way, and take His own time, and teach us patience at the same time in learning God’s ways, and becoming assured of His ways, and confident in Him; and undoubtedly it was pleasing to God that Abram should wish to know, as he says, “Lord Jehovah, how shall I know that I shall possess it?” And then we have further down, in verse 13, “He said to Abram, Know assuredly that thy seed will be a sojourner in a land that is not theirs”, that is, know assuredly. God therefore would have us to be assured. Covenants were made with Abraham, but we ought not to expect them, because we are born of God in a true sense, we are given title to take the place of children of God. Not simply that we are born again in the sense of John 3, but born of the Spirit, that is, the full thought of the children of God. And so now we are the children of God.

Ques So that the word, would you say, is in relation to facts, and those facts eventually form the basis of all true teaching.

JT In relation to facts. That is good.

Rem Which are in themselves basic and fundamental.

JT ^[p. 117] God therefore would enter into conversation with us as He did with Abram, conversational teaching is a feature, especially in the New Testament, and the basis of it is that we are a family.

NKM What would be the force of God presenting Himself to Abram in this way, “Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward”?

JT Well, I think just what I have said, that Jehovah would assure Abram. Much has passed, as we have already heard, the great battle that was fought, and Abram had three hundred and eighteen trained servants in his house, and he joined the conflict, not as an ally of the attacking kings but because of his brother. It was a matter of love. But Abram himself had to be assured. Melchisedec, whose names are given in the previous chapter, was a direct messenger of God to him, to refresh him in the conflict. It is said that “Melchisedec king of Salem brought out bread and wine. And he was priest of the Most High God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth. And blessed be the Most High God, who has delivered thine enemies into thy hand”. Well, this would be very assuring so far, but the heir was not promised. I think God loves to have His children to be free with Him, to be bold in our asking; “How much rather shall the Father”, it is said, “who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” How much rather, showing how things are to be had for the asking. God loves to have us draw near and ask. “Ask, and it shall be given to you. Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened to you”. And so forth. So that God would have us in liberty with Him.

RGB Does John’s epistle develop this thought of assurance?

JT Well, if we approach that epistle we shall see that the main thought is introduced. We have ^[p. 118] gradations in the fellowship; that is to say, the Father and the Son are in it and the apostles are in it, and then all the saints. So that we are to understand that we are dealing with divine Persons, and we are to be regulated accordingly to be reverential, but the epistle as it proceeds opens up love, and, just as we have said, “See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God”. In that sense I would say it certainly does assure us, it opens up what we are dealing with. The Father is available to us, as we have already had it just now, “we have both access by one Spirit to the Father” — through Christ. It is a mediatorial position, but nevertheless liberty, the liberty in which Christ sets us free.

WSS I was thinking of Abram saying, “the steward of my house”. I wondered in connection with your last remark, whether there could not be the liberty until there is the proper provision for the house in the Son. Would that have a bearing on what you have in mind?

JT Just so, according to John 8, for instance, “If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free”. He is over the house, I suppose that is what you mean?

WSS I was thinking that no reward could be offered to Abram that would really satisfy his heart, so long as there was not provision for the house, in the Son.

JT Hebrews opens that up, too; the Son was the builder of the house, being God, and He is over it as Son.

Rem The footnote is the ‘son of possession’ in connection with the steward.

JT That would be that it is Eliezer that he is meaning. But he is possessed as a servant.

Rem “Son of possession” as the steward, in contrast to a steward who has his master whom he ^[p. 119] is under; the son of possession would be entitled as the heir to gather the father’s mind in it.

JT The expression son of possession could hardly convey the idea of sonship in the sense in which Isaac was son, even the eldest of Abraham’s servants, as mentioned in chapter 24; he was not a son, he was the eldest servant of his house, that is to say that he was over all that Abraham had — rising indeed to the thought of the Holy Spirit as a type. But this one is a domestic.

Ques Is the reference “a son of my house will be mine heir”, to one of his domestics?

JT Yes, just so. That is Abram, no doubt, would induct them in some sense into his wealth, but that would not be the divine thought.

WSS I was wondering whether the thought of understanding of assurance, of which you have spoken, is connected in that way with the apprehension of the Son. Abram was not satisfied until the truth of the Son, so to speak, fills his vision. In the end of John’s epistle it says, “We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding”.

JT Just so.

Ques On what line did this word of Jehovah come to him? It says, “And behold, the word of Jehovah came to him, saying ...” How did that reach him? Was that an utterance?

JT Well, we have to leave it. When Moses went into the sanctuary to speak to Jehovah, it says Jehovah spoke to him, and He spoke to him “from between the two cherubim”. So that we cannot say that it was a medium, in the sense of a person, a man; it was God’s way, it was mysterious, but still it was God, and it would seem as if all the communications were on that principle after Moses experienced what he did in Numbers 7. He went in to speak to Jehovah, but Jehovah spoke to him, and ^[p. 120] that is He had a way of speaking to men “from between the two cherubim”. The allusion would be, I suppose, to the Lord Jesus and the Spirit, the means that God has now in the assembly. The speaking goes on, the Spirit may take on men and He does, but it is God speaking. And so Hebrews takes it up, as God who has spoken to us in times past by the fathers, “at the end of these days has spoken to us in Son”, the article not being there is simply that God was speaking in the Son, or as the Son, so that I think the manner of the speaking would be in divine Persons.

NKM It says, “then he heard the voice speaking to him from off the mercy-seat which was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubim”.

JT And that would be now in the incarnation of Christ, of course, and it comes down in the sense of gift, too, in the ministry, because the assembly is the sanctuary, through which God is now operating, and the intention is not to detain us unduly, save as to the general thought of the chapter, that God undertook to speak to Abram in this gracious and full way. It says, “After these things the word of Jehovah came to Abram in a vision”. It is a definite departure with God, because it is the first time you have the idea of the word being used, and then it runs on to what we have already read, when Abram says, “Lord Jehovah, how shall I know that I shall possess it?” Now he wants to be sure. “And he said to him, Take me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon. And he took all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid the half of each opposite its fellow; but the birds he did not divide. And the birds of prey came down on the carcases; and Abram scared them away. And as the sun was just going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, a horror, a great darkness, fell upon him”. Well then, this is a subjective experience that Abram has, and God is intending to put him through it, so that he may come out with assurance. Although the period would be long it would take the character of a prophetic word, yet Abram would be assured that all was settled, and that is the great point that one has in mind, that we should be assured, and that although there may be prophetic ministry, there is assurance that the Spirit of God is in it, and it encourages us to be assured, to believe God, because that is the point — Abram believed God “and he counted it to him for righteousness”.

Ques When he asks, “how shall I know that I shall possess it?”does he show that he is ready then for the subjective exercises?

JT Well, that is right. He is saying to God, I want to know, and then God makes a proposal to him and he accepts it. The proposal is, “Take me a heifer” and so forth, I read the passage, (verses 9 - 11). These creatures would be typical of a subjective experience that faith has to go through in answer to the word of God, which comes to us, whatever way it may come it comes to us, and assures us, and searches us, too, and Abram was equal to that, he was ready to be searched, and to go through horror because the meaning is that he has got to go through in some sense the experience that Israel would go through before they were delivered, possibly something like Romans 7 we have often been reminded of. We have to go through things with God, and learn what God provides as language for us, so that we should understand. These creatures are intended to be a vocabulary for us, so that we should understand and go through things with God, so that we are real Christians.

Ques Would the searching character of the word of God — exposing — be suggested in the division of these ^[p. 122] animals?

JT Well, we have to recognise the female and the male, because these sexes have meanings, have a further language, “Take me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon”. The first three creatures are said to be three years old, which would mean full maturity, and that must find a reaction in the believer, because the question is of the believer advancing in the knowledge of God, and being assured of it, as if it were already existing; it is faith but it is to be assured of as if it existed already.

Ques Would the thought in Acts 19: 20 be the same thought as yours? “Thus with might the word of the Lord increased and prevailed”.

JT Well, it is the word of the Lord in the gospel there that prevailed. It would be the same thing, and it would be in, one might say, a company. It is a question of the ministry of the gospel, and it increased and prevailed. Ephesus was the very top of the position. Paul was moved on until he came to Ephesus, and there the top stone was laid in the ministry.

Ques Would Saul go through this experience in Acts 9, in the three days, and then he was assured by the word of Ananias, putting his hands upon him and saying, “Saul, brother”?

JT Three days and three nights. Yes, very good. I would say that. And no doubt he worked it out in his own letter to the Romans, in chapter 7.

Ques Does the way the seven sons of Sceva are dealt with in Acts 19 link with Abram scaring away the birds?

JT That is a great matter, for young believers especially and for all of us, to scare away the birds, because they are just agents of the devil, to rob us of the truth that we get at a meeting like this. Many times we get things, and we stop the meeting and we ^[p. 123] get talking of this, that and the other thing, and we forget what has been said.

Ques But Jehovah is going to be jealous of what there is with Abram, by not giving him any instructions as to what to do with these animals, he leaves it to Abram. I wondered whether that was calculated to develop the subjective side of the truth?

JT Just so, to bring out the intelligence he had. I think God loves to look on us and give us inklings of what is in His mind, and now it is your turn next, as it were, He would say to you. And so it is that Abram knew what to do here. And so it was that Jehovah would have the animals named, and He “brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof”, as if God is ready to see us go through with things and become acquainted with Him, to come to know Him, to know God. So the last word in John’s first epistle is, “He is the true God and eternal life”. What an immense thing that is! We read in the beginning, “That which was from the beginning”, and so on. We would begin with that, Christ in humanity, but we end with the fact that “He is the true God and eternal life”. He “hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ”.

Rem So that we are divinely sensible. Is that it?

JT Quite so. Then in due course we are to be able to converse with God, for this book brings out how God was ready to converse with Abraham; in chapter 18, as we know, He and two others came and took their stand under the tree and waited for Abraham to cook a meal for them. So that God is ready to converse with us.

Ques Is there a suggestion here in the Lord saying, “Take me a heifer”, not ‘take thee’?

JT Take me, you say? Quite so. God is saying,

^[p. 124] This is how you are going to get to know things. And how much there is in the sense of commandment. “If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord’s commandment”. It is working the things out that are commanded that leads us to the knowledge of God, and makes us confident to converse with Him, to have to say to Him.

Rem The conversation is resumed when he has attended to Him.

JT Yes. So that as we go on with the subjective feature, I think we shall come to what is in mind. The first a heifer, which is a feminine thought, and would allude to true love working out, response toward the Lord, and towards each other. “Take me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram”, which is a progenitive thought, “and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon. And he took all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid the half of each opposite its fellow; but the birds he did not divide”. Showing that he knew what to do, and is left to do it. And then the birds of prey came down on the carcases; and Abram scared them away; meaning that he was going through things with God, although things are severe in a way, as the passage further says, “And as the sun was just going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, a horror, a great darkness, fell upon him”. It is not pleasant, but it has got to be gone through, and it was. He knew what he had to do, and he drove the birds away, that is, the emissaries of the devil. He was learning, God was teaching him, and who teaches like Him?

NKM What would be the thought in the sun going down, “just going down”, it says?

JT Well, I think it would be that the horror would be accentuated, the darkness coming on.

Rem As you suggested earlier, I believe, it was going through this severe exercise and this horror of darkness, that God says, “And he said to Abram, Know assuredly”, that he would get assurance and be established.

JT Yes, that is it. I think it used to be said that the brethren would always come back to Romans 7. Perhaps we have forgotten that, to make Romans 7 a lesson-book as to experience, and bitter experience, where we find “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me”, and then the answer is there, in thanksgiving.

WSS He says, “I know that in me ... good does not dwell”, that is, subjective knowledge.

JT Quite so.

WSS I suppose this would be a question of our apprehension of the death of Christ?

JT Well, I suppose it would, and then the further thoughts in the later verses; it says, in verse 17, “And it came to pass when the sun had gone down, and it was dark”, so that things are deepening in the exercise and experience of knowing God, acquiring a knowledge of God; we have the thought of the depths of God, and how God is to be known in these experiences. And so it says, “It was dark”, and “behold, there was a smoking furnace, and a flame of fire which passed between those pieces”. That is the end, as it were, which would mean, I suppose, the power from God operating in the midst of those pieces. They are Abram’s provision, God ordering it, that these powerful things, these powerful suggestions are in the midst of them. There was a smoking furnace, and a flame of fire which passed between those pieces. That is to say, we are dealing with real power, and the power is not against us but for us, leading on to a true knowledge of God; these experiences are very real and tend to depression and the like, but the power that comes in, the power that worketh in us, but particularly now in the objective sense, power in the sense of trial and the furnace, are all in our favour,

^[p. 126] and work out in our souls the knowledge of God. Hence the word begins, “Fear not, Abram”, because there are so many things that are going on in the world, and so many prognostications by scientific men, that people do fear; they do not know what to do or think. And God would show us that power is on our side, and very great power.

RGB Is that why it says in verse 18, “On the same day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed I give this land”, and so on?

JT It is a confirmation that he wanted to know. God is saying to him, You want to know and I am telling how you should know, and hence what we get in these verses. And when the confirmation comes it says, “On the same day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates”; not simply Canaan but the whole territory to the Euphrates.

Ques Does it suggest spiritual enlargement as a result of these exercises?

JT Well, it does. It shows how God had His servant in His mind and how He would meet him, and He would not spare him, because he had to go through these things, as we have to go through Romans 7. We may as well face it, or we will never be sure. Many of us are not sure.

WSS If we do not face it we never know power; Romans 8 might come into this?

JT I think it does. I think the Spirit is mentioned thirteen times in the first half of Romans 8.

Rem “According to the power which works in us”, not ‘the power that works for us’.

JT Yes, just so. That is the way God is working with us; Paul bowed his knees. I suppose that chapter is so wonderful as it developed in his own mind, he wanted the brethren to know how much he knew about the mystery, and he bowed his knees to ^[p. 127] the Father, and it worked out in the saints as “the power that worketh in us”.

FAW Abraham is spoken of early in Romans as being fully persuaded, and Paul at the end of chapter 8 uses the same words; he was persuaded; has the assurance entered into his soul there subjectively?

JT I would say so. The four hundred years has to be understood. But what a chapter it is. It was a vision, of course. We were speaking of the medium through which the communication might be made, which is a matter which we have to leave, but what a chapter it is. It is a vision. Abraham saw all this in a vision, which tends to make us spiritual. He would emerge from this extraordinary experience a great deal more spiritual than he had been. He had to do with God in a vision, God in His mercy to him, and His grace and His love to him, and in His power towards him, that is what the chapter means.

Rem Beautiful the way in which the Spirit of God would enlarge on these exercises in Romans 4, is it not? “Who against hope believed in hope”, and “He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God”.

Rem Abraham was a great person, but do you suggest that it is of the power of God that he undergoes this searching, in order that he might learn more about God? The verse in Ephesians says, “Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us”. As children of God?

JT Well, yes. Of course, we have to bear in mind the differences of the dispensations now. Abram was in another dispensation; redemption had not been accomplished; at the same time the principle of relation with God was there. He was Abraham, the father of the faithful, coming down to ourselves, the father of us all. And he is a believer now, which is ^[p. 128] the idea, but the basic thought is that I am a believer. The next thing is, what do I believe? And going over this chapter you see that the creatures, the feminine and masculine creatures and the birds, would bring out experiences that are to enter into the make-up of the believer, that he is in relation with God. God is on his side, God is for him, and he “believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”, showing that he got that great principle, so early in Genesis, the principle of reckoning righteousness to faith, faith is reckoned as righteousness.

WSS Were you thinking that we may perhaps sometimes have thought that when Abram says, “How shall I know?” that that was a mark of unbelief, but it is the mark of belief, is it not? It is pleasing to Jehovah that he should have this desire to know the things.

JT I think he is ready. God had opened up the matter with him. It was an overture on God’s part in a vision. And so Abram is free from many things which ordinarily he would not be free from. He is free in a vision so as to get things as they are with God. And he would go to the limit, until we come to the smoking furnace, as it says, “A smoking furnace, and a flame of fire which passed between those pieces”. Those pieces — Abraham is identified with those pieces — and these powerful things are passing between them, as it were, on Abraham’s behalf.

WSS If we are to know, there must be the subjective experience. I was thinking of your reference to the word of God. It is very striking that this is the first reference to it in Scripture, that the subjective result is seen in Abram. We might know the Scriptures without the subjective work.

Rem God appears to compass the whole of Abraham’s life. What would that suggest to us in the way of exercise?

JT Well, if He takes you up at all, He takes you ^[p. 129] up in regard of your life, whether in this world or the next. He takes you up wholly. It is a question therefore of what God will do for you, and I think He has taken up Abraham as a model for us as believers. It is a question of being believers. He is Abraham, the believer, that is really what his position is, a believer, and this chapter shows he is a believer, and his faith is reckoned to him as righteousness, so that he is a righteous man too as well as being a believer.

Ques What had you in mind in the four hundred years? What are they intended to convey?

JT To bring down the history from Abraham till the deliverance from Egypt. Abraham himself was included.

RGB Is the triumphant issue of Romans 7 seen in the end of Romans 8, where it says nothing can “separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”? Is the subjective work seen fully there?

JT I think so. I think Romans 8 is intended to work it out, and to work it out triumphantly. It is the chapter that tells us “All things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to purpose”. And if I lay hold of that, nothing can baffle me, for everything is working for good for me.

Ques It says, “On the same day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram”. Would that suggest that God sees His own work in us?

JT I think if you were to get behind the scenes and know what the mind of God was, you would see how delighted He was with His servant, with His great creature. He was a great creature, a great prophet, he was the head of a family. The first chapter of Matthew begins with Abraham, and it works out until we come to “Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ” But we ^[p. 130] have to add David, we have to think of David, in view of Christ, and the forty-two generations, showing how the work of God patiently moves on to an end, and we are to move on with it, and Abraham is the believer; he is the man that God has taken on to show as the great head of the new order of being, a new race, he is to be the great head of that and God is showing in him what we all are to be, because he is the father of us all.

Ques Is there a suggestion early in the chapter that these things can only be brought to pass on the line of affections, because Abraham had said, “seeing I go childless”? And Jehovah’s answer is, “This shall not be thine heir, but he that will come forth out of thy body (or bowels) shall be thine heir”. Does that suggest affections?

JT Yes, and the feminine side especially; in the feminine creatures the idea of affection is worked out, and the birds are not divided. I mean to say, Abraham understands what to do, he is intelligent.

NKM Why are the birds not divided?

JT Well, I suppose Abraham knew what to do. The creatures were divided and afforded what was needed to exercise power. The power that was to be exercised was to come between the creatures, but the birds were not divided. We have the same principle, I think, in the book of Leviticus; certain things are not divided because they are too small, and yet, however small, God will accept them, and they are brought in in this way.

Ques Does that scripture confirm the greatness of Abraham actually, God indicating that his intelligence in this matter was right, taking it up in Leviticus that these things are not divided and Abraham did not divide them?

JT Leviticus is just the working out of this, because these creatures were taken up, and Abraham, you might say, was the offering priest. He was a ^[p. 131] priest. God accounts him to be able to do this, he lets him do it, as he would bring out the idea of priesthood. Some of us have been noting that priesthood is scarce, very scarce among the brethren. Levitical service, preaching and teaching is not so scarce, but priesthood is quite scarce, and it has been shown that Aaron and his sons were not called priests until love is displayed in Exodus in the Hebrew servant, when the threefold testimony to love in the Hebrew servant is indicated or asserted, spoken plainly; then you get the High Priesthood, and the priests and their clothes, especially Aaron’s own garments, because it is a question of the thoughts of God in priesthood, in those garments.

WSS We try to apprehend these things, I am afraid, without a sufficient sense in ourselves of the death of Christ and the way in which the glories of Christ have been reached, the priestly garments speaking of His glory in resurrection, perhaps, and here I was thinking, in connection with your remarks, the Lord says to Abraham, in effect, if you are to know things, you must have dealings with Me on the basis of the death of Christ. Would that be the thought?

JT Quite so. What an impressive thing it was — “a smoking furnace and a flame of fire, which passed between those pieces”. Abraham had nothing to do with that. He did not cause the smoking furnace and the flame of fire, he placed the pieces where they should be placed, and God let him do it, and he did it, and God’s power comes in between them, showing how God’s power is identified with the believer.

WSS Would you say that if we really do move subjectively in relation to the truth of the death of Christ we should be surprised at the power that comes in?

JT Just so. “The power that worketh in us”. I think what we have come to now is what everyone ^[p. 132] of us should get into his soul, that the power is there, “the power that worketh in us”, and this smoking furnace and fire — Abraham had nothing to do with that. He put the creatures in their places, and kept the enemy away, and then let God act, because if we let the enemy in we will hinder God, but keeping the enemy away we let God act, and God’s action is seen in these two wonderful things, the smoking furnace and the flame of fire. These are symbols of power.

Ques Are we responsible for our thoughts, then? I was thinking of the birds of prey, the wandering thoughts, perhaps, in letting our thoughts wander all over the place at such holy moments, or at moments when ministry is coming before us. Would that correspond?

JT Well, if we do not learn to control our thoughts we are not fit to have part in God’s service, because we have to learn to exclude what is extraneous to the service of God. It is a question of the Father, the Son and the Spirit, and the saints. Many things, of course, are right in their places but they are not right now, where it is a question of God’s service, what we are towards God, and these symbols of power would indicate what is possible, “the power that worketh in us” as before God.

Ques Is it here that God is demonstrating that He will bring to consummation that which is desired?

JT That is suggested in the extent of the territory, it is greater than what was given to Israel at first. David alone secured this territory, we are told that; here it is “On the same day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates” and so forth, down to the naming of all the Canaanitish nations. They must be overthrown, because they are only the devil in another sense, and, of course, Joshua tells us how they were overthrown; that is to say, Joshua is ^[p. 133] extirpation, but David is subjugation. David comes in on God’s part for subjugation, and that is by the Spirit, so that He gives the Holy Spirit to those who are subject, we are told, those who obey.

WSS Is your thought that after these experiences Abraham, or, on the other hand, Timothy, would be able to proclaim the word — not merely say what was in the Scriptures?

JT Well, I think we ought to come to that now, because Timothy is not exactly an evangelist, although he had the gift which he did not stir up, and he needed to stir up his gift, one of his gifts, we are told; but it says here, “I testify before God and Christ Jesus, who is about to judge living and dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom, proclaim the word”; and then further, “But thou, be sober in all things, bear evils, do the work of an evangelist, fill up the full measure of thy ministry”. Whatever it is, whatever the ministry may be, fill it up. That is prescribed — to preach the word. It is a remarkable thing, it does not say, ‘preach the gospel’ here, although the gospel, of course, is to be preached, but it is preach the word, as if in the last days we need to stress the word in the preaching.

WSS I would just like to be helped about this. The thought of the word that you are presenting to us is connected, I gather, with the subjective exercises of Abraham, so that something is made good in the one who does the preaching, is that the thought?

JT Well, if Abraham is kept before us, the evangelists all come in in due course, and the teachers, and the gifts, because they all come in on that line, but dispensations have to be taken into account, too. We begin with twelve apostles; there was one missing, in Judas, but that one was made up before the Lord sent down the Spirit. The Lord was in heaven for ten days before He sent down the Spirit. There must have been some consideration and thought as to the ^[p. 134] spirit coming and whether everything was ready for the incoming of the Spirit, and then we are told about the converts, Peter being the evangelist, the preacher, there were three thousand of the converts, or the saints, generally, there. “They persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers”. That went on very happily, according to the facts. When we come to chapter 6 there was the complaining element, and provision had to be made to meet that, until Paul comes on the scene, as if the principle of revival had already come. The principle became needed, and so the Lord says, “he is an elect vessel to me, to bear my name before both nations and kings and the sons of Israel for I will show to him how much he must suffer for my name”, so that it would look as if the need of the principle of revival is almost constant, because we are apt to settle down in former ways and forget that freshness is always needed, and the incoming of Paul implied freshness and vigour, and the full working out of the divine thoughts, because very much was left until Paul came in.

Ques Would that preserve us from being overwhelmed with the horrors and darkness of the last days?

JT Quite so.

NKM We have alluded to preaching the gospel and preaching the word. Would you say another word as to that?

JT I think the word implies, as we see here, the need of something more forceful, because the gospel is glad tidings. It has the spirit of gladness in it, but the word ploughs us up more, I would think. As we were saying, the “word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword”, showing what is needed under certain circumstances in the testimony of God, and we need the word.

Rem That was very similar to the idea when the centurion said, “Speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed”.

JT Yes, very good.

Ques Do you feel we should press the authority and rights of God in the gospel?

JT I think where the word of God is implied, there is more power in the word, it is living and operative. It is remarkable phraseology in Hebrews 4, “the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do”. One feels that in the end of the dispensation we need to do that, to keep to the word.

Rem That is what I was thinking, in view of the days we are living in, no fear of God, lawlessness, corruption abounding. I was just wondering whether you need to press the sovereign rights of God.

RGB Is it something direct from God conveyed mediatorially? I was thinking of how the speaking of God was conveyed in the Son, but that now the saints are brought into it, to convey what is brought direct from God. Would that be right?

JT It would, because God Himself is speaking in His word. It runs into that in Hebrews 4. It runs into the thought of Son in Hebrews 1, but in the fourth chapter it runs into God Himself. It is nothing less than that the word of God is God Himself. We are all naked and open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. That is the word, the word runs into that, runs into the thought of God Himself.

Ques God spake to Abraham in a vision. Should we look for that in connection with hearing God’s word?

JT I doubt it. Of course, there may be visions,

^[p. 136] but there is not much now, you know, not much ecstasy now. All these things were quite familiar and much used at the start. At the same time, the Spirit of God is here, and the humility that attaches to Him and His services; the marvellous patience of the Spirit of God remaining here all these centuries, and still here, as in a meeting like this; He is still here, and He is set on working out what Christ is in us, the Spirit of Christ. It is said to be the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, as if there is need of a supply of it at any given time.

WSS You would look for impressions, would you?

JT Quite so, why should we not? The Spirit of God is here. If we are self-judged we will get something.

Ques At the end of Hebrews, it says, “Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God”. Is that the thing?

JT Well, it is said in Hebrews 2, “For this reason we should give heed more abundantly to the things we have heard, lest in any way we should slip away. For if the word which was spoken by angels was firm, and every transgression and disobedience received just retribution, how shall we escape if we have been negligent of so great salvation, which, having had its commencement in being spoken of by the Lord, has been confirmed to us by those who have heard”. This is how the matter came out. “God bearing, besides, witness with them to it, both by signs and wonders, and various acts of power, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to his will?” This is a statement in the epistle to the Hebrews of how things came in at the beginning.