WITNESSING
[p. 218] WITNESSING
Revelation 20: 4 - 6; Revelation 22:1 - 5; Revelation 22:14 - 21
JT In chapter 20, besides those mentioned in the beginning of verse 4, which include all the saints before the great tribulation, we have those who pass through it, “the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years”. They lived and reigned with Christ; so that the idea of life is carried through to the reigning position. Some, alluded to in the first part of the verse, who might appear to have missed the first great wave of Christ’s raising power, including the assembly, are particularly mentioned, in order that it might be understood that they are not overlooked. They have their place with the others, living and reigning with Christ; and so, however obscure or however late the day in which we may testify, we are not left out.
RAL Is this honour conferred now, or in a future day?
JT Both are true; one may rest assured that if he is faithful in bearing testimony, he will be honoured where he suffered.
Ques Is it true of the Lord, that He will be honoured in Jerusalem where He suffered?
JT I think that fact stands out, but He is already honoured there; that is, He is honoured in the saints. When Judas went out, the Lord said, “Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God also shall glorify him in himself, and shall glorify him immediately”, John 13:31, 32. The immediate glory, it [p. 219] seems to me, includes what He gets in the saints, what He has now. The saints were His in Jerusalem, where He died, and so He said, “Why dost thou persecute me?” He was there in them — they were His body.
Rem I was thinking of Zechariah.
JT Yes, “his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives” (Zechariah 14:4), where He suffered in the testimony.
Ques What is the thought of reigning?
JT It is the outcome of suffering. We are told that if we suffer, we shall reign. I think that is the link here, for these witnesses were peculiarly marked by suffering. It says, “The souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years”. That is a counterpart of their suffering; reigning belongs to the sufferer.
Ques Does Christ give character to the reigning?
JT Yes, it is His reigning; but it is remarkable that it should be said, “they lived”. Living is what is before us particularly; they lived and reigned.
Rem Romans speaks of reigning in life (Romans 5: 17).
JT Just so; it is reigning in life there, but this is living with Christ and reigning with Him. In Romans we get the thought of reigning in life by Him; but, here, it is with Him.
SJH Could it be said that every believer has suffered in some measure; hence he shall surely live?
JT I think so; still, it is if we suffer. Every true believer suffers in some sense, and the thought of suffering introduces another thing here — the great prominence given in Revelation to the book of life. Revelation contains most of the references to it,
[p. 220] because we have come to the crisis of things where everything is brought to an issue. The book stresses reality, and anyone whose name is in it will not bow down to the beast or take on his mark; every one else will do so. “And all that dwell on the earth shall do it homage, every one whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lamb” (chapter 13: 8); accordingly, the book of life underlies the subject of which we are speaking; it is inclusive of all those in whom God works. It does not give license to our being in unsuitable associations, but it does bear on the work of God. It is remarkable how unqualifiedly it is used; that is, if one’s name is found in the book of life, he does not bow down and worship the beast, or bear his mark; and he is the only one that has any right to enter the city, as it says in chapter 21: 27, “And nothing common, nor that maketh an abomination and a lie, shall at all enter into it; but those only who are written in the book of life of the Lamb”; and then in chapter 20:15, “And if any one was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire”. It seems to be the saving feature throughout this book that the subjects of the work of God are preserved; therefore one should have no doubt in his mind as to this; it is a matter to be settled in one’s soul.
AHP Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego had some feature of this, had they not; they were sufferers?
JT It is remarkable how they come in there; they are mentioned thirteen times in the chapter in which their persecution is recorded, to suggest how much heaven thinks of suffering saints.
Ques Is there any significance in the way these souls met their death? It says that they were beheaded.
JT In this respect they correspond to John the baptist. I suppose the allusion would be that the [p. 221] world abhors the wisdom of God in His people; it is that which puts the world’s wisdom to shame. John the baptist suffered beheading, too, and would bear a similar testimony.
SJH Does the world particularly oppose what is living? When Lazarus was raised from the dead, “They took counsel that they might kill him” (John 11: 53). It would seem as though the feature of life is particularly hateful to Satan.
JT Quite, the wisdom that goes with the testimony is well worth considering, because it is the greatest thing connected with operations; the earth was founded by wisdom (Proverbs 3: 19). The wisdom of God is a very great thing and is peculiarly contrasted with human wisdom by Paul, who said, “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God”, 1 Corinthians 3: 19.
ANW Will you say a little more about the book of life? You spoke of it as a saving feature. Why are some of the saints in the epistles especially mentioned as having their names there, as an honour, apparently?
JT In Philippians 4 we have it mentioned as if it were enough to say of certain ones of whom honourable mention is made. I think God would stress the greatness of having one’s name there. I think it is a question of the purpose of God, of His putting the names in according to His perfect knowledge of them.
RAL What would Paul see in Clement that would lead him to discern that his name was in the book of life?
JT He knew he was living spiritually.
JWD In the word to Sardis, is there any suggestion that some may be blotted out?
JT Well, you will notice that the statement is negative, “And I will not blot his name out of the book of life”, Revelation 3:5. I suppose the allusion would [p. 222] be that it was a time of church enrolment, and the like, but the one book in which to be enrolled was the book of life, and the overcomer could not be blotted out. There may be a sense in which God regards souls who are not real as alive; but in viewing generally in Scripture, the book of life, it includes only those who are real, all others are cast into the lake of fire.
SJH Is there any difference between the thought of having one’s name written in the book of life, and having one’s name written in heaven? The Lord said, “Rejoice that your names are written in the heavens”, Luke 10: 20.
JT It is the same idea, only “written in the heavens” is beyond the book of life. “Written in the heavens” means having a status there like the “levites of God”, who are registered in heaven, Hebrews 12: 23. It gives a heavenly status.
ANW Why did you bring in the book of life as referred to in chapter 20?
JT Because every christian has part in it; but then, if I am not standing against evil, if I have a mark of the beast, I am questionable; because those in the book of life do stand against the beast.
Rem You have the expression in chapter 17: 8, “And they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life”. Just how would that apply — “not written from the founding of the world”?
JT In chapter 13 you have a fuller statement “Whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lamb”.
Life is taken up in connection with the founding of the world, and it does not rise to the height of counsel as in Ephesians, which is higher and inclusive of heavenly things. The book of life does not go beyond what is on the earth; although those whose names are in it would be in heaven, of course; but the point is [p. 223] that I am in life here where evil is, and I stand against it. In Colossians it is a question of association in life with Him; not so much eternal life, but it is persons living with Him. We are said to be “quickened together with him”, Colossians 2: 13.
JTJr “That they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised”, 2 Corinthians 5:15.
JT Yes, but here you have “with”, which is association. For us, it is Colossians; we are quickened together with Him, making it more intimate. Here, they lived and reigned; they are viewed not as we are here now, but as actually risen from the dead.
GWH-n Would you say that the foreknowledge of God takes in every family?
JT I think so. All come into divine counsel; there is no afterthought with God — “foreknown of him” — everything was determined before.
ANW I was just wondering whether predestination might run along with this, too.
JT Well, the book of life does not go so far, nor the promise of life. “Whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren. But whom he has predestinated, these also he has called; and whom he has called, these also he has justified; but whom he has justified, these also he has glorified” (Romans 8: 29, 30); that runs up to the highest thought, inclusive of the assembly. Life is fundamental, relating to the individual. The fact that I am in that book gives stability — all have life. The assembly goes beyond that; she is Christ’s body and His bride; and individually we are conformed to the image of God’s Son in heaven. God has predestinated us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, that we might be to the praise of His glory. That is the highest thought, alluding to the assembly. With regard to being enrolled [p. 224] in the book of life, if I am not standing against antichrist, and against antichristian principles, the entry of my name there is questionable; because chapters 13 and 14 of Revelation show that those whose names are in the book of life, do stand against antichrist and antichristian principles.
ANW Name a few of these outstanding antichristian principles.
JT Well, they have arisen especially within the last fifty or seventy-five years — trade unionism and all such combinations. Anything in the nature of combined power against the truth, is antichristian; and if one is not standing against these combinations, he is challengeable as to whether his name is in the book of life, because Revelation says that those whose names are in the book of life, do stand against what is antichristian.
Ques Do you include the radio in that?
JT Well, the radio, I think, is an antichristian vehicle; it builds up what is antichristian. I have no doubt that it makes for the power of antichrist; it is that sort of thing, seeming to be inscrutable.
I believe it is preparing men for that very thing (compare Revelation 13: 13 - 15). It is an evil thing and very damaging in christian households. I believe anybody who cannot stand against it is challengeable as to his loyalty to Christ and to christian fellowship.
Ques When you speak of combinations, do you mean the principles of the world?
JT Combinations date from Shinar (Genesis 11). It was a combination against the truth, but this feature of evil has taken peculiar form in the last fifty or seventy-five years. It is that which the gospel of Matthew emphasises especially. In Matthew there were two demoniacs and two blind men. With regard to the demoniacs, it says, “And there met him, when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, two possessed by demons, coming out of [p. 225] the tombs, exceeding dangerous, so that no one was able to pass by that way”, Matthew 8: 28. That is the power of combination. It is against the truth, and there is a form of violence and lawlessness behind it, which is of the devil.
Ques Would you say that unitarianism is antichristian?
JT Yes, of course, but that is seventeen or eighteen hundred years old; it is not a new thing at all; but combinations have taken a peculiarly modern turn. Satan is working with a view to antichrist, and the Spirit of God tells us that every one will succumb except those whose names are in the book of life; and so it becomes a challenge as to whether my name is there.
JTJr Does Moses represent this element that would stand against evil in the case of Dathan and Abiram?
JT Yes, it was a combination of contiguity — the persons were combined because they were near each other — a Levite and two Reubenites. There were three special leaders — Korah, Dathan, and Abiram — and two hundred and fifty princes of the congregation combined against Moses and Aaron, who fell on their faces. It is remarkable what is mentioned about this terrible attack of the devil, for what ensued was that the tabernacle was covered by a cloud, meaning that God would protect His testimony.
JTJr Moses said, “Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye perish in all their sins” (Numbers 16: 26); so that it is a question of going out from it.
JT Yes. We cannot overcome such an uprising; we just have to leave it.
Ques Having on the whole armour of God?
JT The suffering will become more acute, and if the cloud is covering the tabernacle some will have to stand, maybe a few, as working with God, like [p. 226] Jonathan (1 Samuel 14), to defend it. This scripture says that some in the last days, who do stand, are beheaded. In verse 4 it says, “The souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony”; that must allude to the wisdom that was in them. Matthew teaches us how to meet opposition by a combination”If two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens”, Matthew 18: 19. “Two of you” — we are invulnerable as united in prayer; and then in the next verse we have, “For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”. These scriptures show us how we may stand against these antichristian principles. We cannot possibly carry the testimony through without suffering and the loss of things here. These witnesses were beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus and on account of the word of God; and they had not done homage to the beast or to his image, and had not received his mark in their foreheads or hands. Any combination might work out against the truth, but we have to be discriminating; we have to be fair. Governments are combinations; but they are under divine control, for the moment. We are told to pray for those in authority. As we have said, there are combinations which are out of control and are lawless.
SJH Would you say a word about the first resurrection?
JT Well, that is one thought in which we all share. The first resurrection, I think, is in parts, as we see in chapter 20; yet it is one, “And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them” (verse 4). This refers to those who are raised when the Lord comes and it includes ourselves; but then there are those who suffer after, as we have seen, who also have part in it, and that is the reason why so much is said in the remaining part of the [p. 227] verse, that those who suffer beheading, and others, are also included in the first resurrection. Even though they come in late, they are included. After the rapture of the assembly and after the Old Testament saints are raised, these also are included in the same resurrection; so that it is, “Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection”. The first resurrection includes all who belong to God. “The rest of the dead”, who are not raised till a thousand years later, are lost. Each family of the redeemed has its own part in the divine scheme, but all have part in the first resurrection. Those who come in after the assembly goes will have a terrible time, but they will not be left out of the first resurrection.
Ques Will you explain that again about all having part in the first resurrection? The first resurrection is before the thousand years.
JT This refers to the time before the thousand years, it includes the reign of antichrist. The Lord takes special account of the sufferers mentioned here; and He makes it clear that they come in for the blessedness of the first resurrection. The resurrection of the wicked dead is after the millennium. They live not again until the thousand years are complete.
Ques Is there no resurrection of the righteous during the thousand years?
JT They do not die; to have part in the final state of things, they are changed. There is nothing said here of them; the statement is with regard to these sufferers. No doubt there will be a time of unparalleled suffering, and these stand; that is what is emphasised here, showing that those who suffer are taken account of especially.
ANW So that it is a kind of wake of the rapture, I suppose.
JTJr Are the testimony of Jesus, and the life of Jesus, seen in these men?
JT Exactly; “for the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus”, Revelation 19: 10. That is a touching reference, in keeping with the title “Lamb”. Jesus stood against evil, never giving way for an instant these were in keeping with that.
JTJr The Lord said to Saul, “I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest”, Acts 9: 5. He alluded to the saints.
Ques What have you before you with regard to chapter 22?
JT Well, to call attention to the pure river of the water of life. In the book, we have had much about the throne; now there is something issuing out of the throne — a river “bright as crystal”; it is a question of influence. Sympathy is seen in this book in the four living creatures; bond service in the one hundred and forty-four thousand; and testimony in the two witnesses, emphasised here in chapter 20, where it says they were beheaded, and where we have living and reigning; but now we come to the idea of influence, a river. As applied to ourselves today, it is a question of what influence is proceeding from us. This river is said to be “bright as crystal” and it issued from the throne. It has a clearness to it as over against all other sources of government. This is pure, clear influence. There is nothing dark, nothing deceptive, no double-mindedness about it. As under the Lord, one is what one is; he is transparent; so that the influence is clear as crystal, and it also has fructifying power in it.
Ques Is that contrasted with the influence seen from the bottomless pit?
JT Yes, darkening influence. Is not that what marks the politics of this world? All human manipulation and double-dealing is of that kind. You are not sure of people; whereas, where things are clear, doubt disappears. In chapter 4, before the throne, there is a sea of glass; it is fixed and alludes to the great general principle of transparency. It is before [p. 229] the throne, but you have movement now; that is, influence going out at the same time as seen in the river. Here it is a question of the throne of government, the throne of God and the Lamb.
ANW In the garden of Eden, the river that flowed from thence became four rivers.
JT Yes, just so; the general idea of river is there — that it surrounds a certain land, and in that land are bdellium and onyx. The surrounding is to bring out the influence all around, so that what is of God is brought out.
SJH Why is the throne, which is mentioned here, not an altar as it was in Ezekiel?
JT Well, I think now, it is a question of God’s dominance. We have been speaking of God’s acting in spite of circumstances, but here it is a set way of His. I think it reminds us of being right in our gatherings, so that God may have a free hand, and that influence as clear as crystal should go out. In our localities, if matters of discipline come up, our judgment is not beclouded; things are clear; there is a reason given for everything that is done. In Ephesians 2:21, it says of the assembly, “All the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord” — leading up to the millennium; so that whatever is done governmentally in the millennium will be clarified. There will be nothing dark; the meaning of everything will be clear. If we pursued right principles, nothing would be dark.
ANW That cannot be said of present-day governments.
JT This is over against these.
AHP Would that deliver us from personal influence and personal judgment in matters of discipline? Everything must be governed by divine authority.
JT Yes. The throne stands for God’s mind in government. We must leave aside [p. 230] personal feelings and natural relationships; otherwise, we would be biased.
JTJr Does the fact that the river goes out have in view God acting?
JT Exactly. Then it is said, “In the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, in each month yielding its fruit”. That would show the power of life; and I believe the more we know of righteousness, the more fruit there will be.
JTJr Does the idea of healing come in on account of the fact that the Spirit of God is here among us?
JT Yes.
Ques Does the tree of life refer to Christ personally?
JT Well, no doubt it does; but I think it is more expanded — what goes out from Him through others, because it is on either side of the river. The point is that it is available; you do not have to cross the river to get it.
Ques Is it like Christ dwelling in your hearts?
JT Well, pretty much. The river flowing out of the belly of the believer (John 7: 38), is a kindred thought; it flows out for good to others.
Rem In Revelation 7 it is more limited, leading them to the fountains of waters of life.
JT Yes, fountains are more limited: rivers move in an extended way.
SJH Why is this river associated with the street?
JT There is no idea of one class above another; there is common dignity. The Levites are all “firstborn” ones; no one has any distinction above another. There is no ‘West End’ in the heavenly city; there is one street.
Rem That street is of pure gold and transparent [p. 231] glass.
JT It is a wonderful suggestion of dignity in intrinsic worth and transparency.
Ques Why is the name of God here “Lord God Almighty”?
JT We are in a prophetic scene here. Those inside know more than that. This is a prophetic book which does not deal with the intimacy of the assembly’s relations with God and with Christ. They are touched upon. As we have said, it is to remind us that there is distance. It is not Ephesian or Colossian truth, or as in John’s own gospel. Here, he is just a prophet — a bondman prophet — shown things, and he pictures things as he sees them. God can take a man and maintain him in a certain state. John was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day in his own proper relation before God, but he turns back to see the voice behind him, so that he is brought into the setting of a prophet. It is not the apostle John, but the prophet John.
Ques What is the thought of bearing fruit every month?
JT It is to bring out the great fruit-bearing power that is in the tree. You have the lunar year here; the agricultural year is a question of seasons.
Ques The precious influence put forth by the months?
Ques. Variety?
JT Quite so. It is delightful to think of fresh fruit every month. This book impresses upon us the importance of freshness of life.
Ques Would the street suggest a common walk together?
JT Yes; it is not graded society, but the level of mutual dignity — all viewed as “firstborn who are registered in heaven”.
SJH Does it not involve that all a person’s movements can be understood intelligibly?
JT [p. 232] Just so; there is perfect freedom in life in dignity, reflected in God and in the Lamb.
ANW We are exhorted to “have the same respect one for another”; not the same disrespect.
JT That brings in mutuality in dignity. We have already touched on verse 14-what belongs to those who wash their robes; they have a right to the tree of life, and to enter by the gates into the city and then, “Let him that is athirst come; he that will, let him take the water of life freely” (verse 17). It is for everybody.
JTJr Verse 15 would be especially applicable today — “Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loves and makes a lie”; they are outside.
GWH-n The tree of life seems to give it a present aspect. “Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city”.
JT I think the verse has an application to fellowship; it is to determine those who are eligible; that they have a right on account of washing their robes.
RAL In verse 17 it says, “Let him that hears say, Come”. Does John return to the evangelist’s feature here?
JT Yes; “come” is a word which belongs peculiarly to his ministry, “Come, see a man” (John 4: 29); that is a principle with John. “And him that comes to me I will not at all cast out”,
John 6: 37. Verse 17 is evangelical.
Rem John encourages one to do things for himself.
JT He does. The work of God is evidenced in your coming to Him.