THE PERFECTING OF THE WORK OF GOD
[p. 531] THE PERFECTING OF THE WORK OF GOD
John 19: 38 - 42; John 20: 1 - 23
JT The closing verses of chapter 19 suggest to us how the work of God comes to light in the end, although in many cases hidden at first. Joseph of Arimathaea is said to be a disciple of Jesus but secretly and then Nicodemus is spoken of as coming to the Lord, in the early days of His ministry, by night. The work of God comes to light now in the way these two minister to Him in the burial, and then the work that had already come to light is seen as being perfected in the next chapter; indeed chapters 20 and 21 show how the work of God is perfected at the end. You see it in Peter and John and Mary, and in the disciples together in the upper room, then in Thomas by himself, and later in the seven who went away fishing. John would show that the work of God comes to light one way or another and the service of Christ is to perfect it. The apostle said, “... that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus”, Colossians 1: 28. The idea of perfecting, or finishing, runs through the Word of God.
RMcB So it may take time to work it out; we find Nicodemus coming to Jesus by night earlier in the gospel, and secretly it is wrought out in his soul.
JT Yes, it reminds us of what there is for God today. God’s work is very extensive, but much of it is secret: He knows all His own. The psalmist prays that His work should be manifested, and it is to some extent manifested, but perhaps there is much more to be manifested. Of course there is no premium on people who remain disciples secretly, because both these men must have lost enormously in remaining in secrecy. We do not hear of them again. Still the work of God is sure to show itself in time and it is [p. 532] illustrated here. It was no small thing for a man like Joseph of Arimathaea to go to the governor and ask him for the body of Jesus, who was under such reproach at this time, having died as a malefactor.
WHM It seems as if they had come out boldly at that juncture, showing how God’s purpose was being worked out in them. Are the myrrh and aloes significant as if they had some sense of His suffering love?
JT I think that is right. Nicodemus had that. The spices were large in quantity and perhaps not so valuable as the pound that Mary of Bethany had, but they were such as were needed for such a service.
GM Why does this work come out in connection with the body of Jesus?
JT I suppose the work of God in due course comes out in reference to His Person.
GM Isaiah 53 says, “Men appointed his grave with the wicked, but he was with the rich in his death”. It was purposed of God, and the men were here to fulfil that.
JT So that what was prophesied is now fulfilled in an unexpected instrument. It needed a crisis to bring it forward and it does with us sometimes, the loss of a son or the birth of a son, it may be, to bring out the work of God. That is the object of John’s gospel, to bring out the work of God whatsoever it may be. “He that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God”. Doubtless there are thousands and thousands of the saints hidden away today; our business is to see that they come to light, in so far as we can help them. In John it is a question of finding people — several were found by the Lord and by disciples in the first chapter. The Lord found the man whom He had healed at the pool of Bethesda; He found the blind man whose eyes had been opened.
RMcB They would shepherd every precious [p. 533] thought of Christ in the soul. It is John who brings the Lord out specially as the Good Shepherd.
JT Yes, that is the thought. It is an occupation that largely marks the people of faith.
GB There are a good many Christians, some perhaps in our local meeting, not answering to the work of God in them, and we should seek to help them.
JT I believe that is what John’s gospel would produce — finding people. Here nobody finds these men, it is the work of God Himself coming out in them.
Ques Would John’s ministry help us on family lines that way?
JT It does. It culminates in the family relations of the saints on the highest level.
Rem Would it not save us going wrong in the way Elijah did, thinking there was no one but himself?
JT I think men like Joseph and Nicodemus would correspond with Obadiah in 1 Kings 18, representative of the many who are secretly disciples of the Lord but remain hidden.
Ques Is there in this service that they rendered the body of the Lord an underlying kind of instinctive desire to preserve His features, and were these preserved in relation to the breathings of the Spirit in the next chapter?
JT Yes, quite. The Spirit He breathed into them would show how He is preserved as represented here. As we were saying yesterday, the continuance of things is really in the assembly, where the Lord is known, and where He comes. They were concerned that He should not be exposed, that He should be properly buried. They were the kind of people who were needed for that service, because it required a certain amount of means to furnish the burial requirements, and they furnished them evidently; we find that in the linen and spices and in the tomb; they had a suitable tomb. So that we must not despise [p. 534] people because they are rich, if their riches become subservient to the testimony — that is the only value they have really. When the rich man is identified with the burial of Jesus he is in safety.
HL Is there anything to be said about the garden in which the tomb was?
JT It refers, I suppose, to the special place of cultivation. The next chapter shows that Mary attached the idea of a gardener to it. It was right enough here in chapter 19, but to attach the idea of a gardener to the spot where the grave of Jesus was would mean that the garden condition was to continue, whereas the Scriptures had intimated plainly enough that He was to rise again. The garden, of course, would be the place of cultivation which the Lord had recognised. We are told in chapter 18 there was a garden where He often resorted. He impressed on Mary that He was going to ascend to His Father. Mary clung to the idea of the garden as a place of cultivation on earth.
SG In verse 38 we have “He ... took away the body of Jesus”, and in verse 42 it says “There ... they laid Jesus”. Why does the Scripture distinguish between the body and the Person?
JT Well, I suppose it is just to stress the thought that the body is essential to the Person — although He was not in His body then, it was potentially Himself. We have the same thought in Stephen: they carried Stephen to his burial. It is an expression that runs throughout the history of the race, the body represents the person; it is well understood.
SG Do you attach personality to the spirit?
JT Well, if you begin to analyse, of course you will have to. The Lord said, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”. That is the Person. That is the inscrutableness of it. “Before Abraham was, I am” — that does not include the body. He took a body — “A body hast thou prepared me” (Hebrews 10: 5), and [p. 535] He is identified with that in relation to the will of God, but His Person is inscrutable. But we have to regard it apart in a sense in absoluteness. He said, “Before Abraham was, I am”, John 8: 58. That does not include His body, because His body was taken in time for a purpose, to carry out the will of God, and He retains it in resurrection and in heavenly glory. We could not know Him otherwise; it is only in His body we know Him.
SG I asked that question more in relation to Stephen, not so much in regard to the Lord.
JT “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”, Stephen said, just as the Lord had said. So that absent from the body is present with the Lord, but yet without a means of expressing himself, the body is necessary to a complete person: spirit, soul and body, is the formal statement of every person; every person save the Lord Jesus; He was a Person before He became man. That is beyond us.
GFG In chapter 19 it speaks of the body-coat, and the Lord says, “It is finished”. I was wondering if in that way special attention was drawn to the precious body of the Lord, and also that the will of God was completed, finished; that was the body to which they were ministering.
JT The body that had been prepared, really. So that He says, “I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it”. That was in His body. Chapter 20 brings out the perfecting side; we may perhaps carry forward these two men into that side. They are seen at the tomb with Jesus in it: “there laid they Jesus”. What they did afterwards we are not told; but Mary comes early, and it says, “On the first day of the week Mary of Magdala comes in early morn to the tomb, while it was still dark, and sees the stone taken away from the tomb. She runs therefore and comes to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple,
[p. 536] to whom Jesus was attached, and says to them, They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we know not where they have laid him”. Now this is what brings out the need of perfection, the need of instruction as to faith: how love to Christ may exist with us, and yet we may be very imperfect as to faith. Her only thought was that someone had taken Him away; her thought does not go beyond the power that put Him into the tomb; someone had put Him there, and someone had taken Him away. She does not go beyond that; but it is resurrection we have to learn. He had come out Himself from the tomb. She was defective in that, and was comparatively slow to come into the truth of it, notwithstanding her devotedness, notwithstanding that she rose early and came to the sepulchre, apparently alone; notwithstanding the energy of love, there was a great defect in her intelligence; she is still unbelieving, speaking in unbelief as to the resurrection.
RMcB Continuance at the sepulchre was seen. She had desire; her desire was right.
JT Yes. Devotedness, the energy of devotedness, but wanting in intelligence, which is the state with many, wanting in the intelligence of faith.
WHM A great contrast to Mary of Bethany, who anointed Him for His burial. She was one who had perfect intelligence, she is not found at the sepulchre.
JT Quite; she worshipped intelligently, you might say, with proper measure.
JM Do you believe that she anointed Him with the full certainty that He would rise again?
JT Well, I think we could put that into it. He had raised her brother.
Rem She knew Him as the “resurrection and the life”. Death could not exist in His presence.
JT No. “If thou hadst been here, my brother had not died”.
Ques It says, “He saw and believed”. Believed what? That He had risen?
JT Well, it is better to leave it as it is. Because faith is the one great thought. We have to notice, “Peter therefore went forth, and the other disciple, and came to the tomb. And the two ran together, and the other disciple ran forward faster than Peter, and came first to the tomb, and stooping down he sees the linen cloths lying”. Notice the word “cloths”, not clothes. It is not one garment, it is a question of wrappings. “Then entered in therefore the other disciple ... and he saw and believed”. Now these two brethren, as we may speak of them here, exercised their intelligence in what they were doing. They investigated what was in the tomb. If investigation is to be made you have got to go in where the body of Jesus had lain. What had been the state of things there? The wrappings had been in a certain condition when He lay there; well, now they are not altered; there is no evidence of any change, or any struggle, of any unloosing, any altering the position of the cloths. The suggestion is that it was a question of power that was not affected by material things. The Lord went out leaving everything as it was; it is a spiritual matter. The latter part of the chapter shows that He came into the room similarly, the doors being shut, without being affected by what was material. He builds up a state of faith, and a state of spirituality in faith, which is essential to the understanding of the assembly.
Ques Why do you say that — the assembly? How do you connect it?
JT Well, we do not find the word here, but we find the personnel, the material for it. “It is I myself. Handle me and see”. That would be proof to them that it was Himself. Here they believed by negative evidence — not yet as coming into the company Himself, but by what was in the tomb, in the [p. 538] sepulchre. Something unusual had happened. Notice is taken of the linen cloths.
Rem I suppose they are getting prepared for further light from the Lord. It is like the movements of faith both in Mary and the disciples.
JT Yes, they are all in the way of perfecting; perfecting is the thing. So that these two brothers investigated; there are very few christians who go to the trouble of investigating and, of course, correspondingly remain in the dark. People do not look into things.
Ques Is it the idea of coming into the circumstances?
JT Quite so. They saw where He was, and what was there. They entered into the tomb; did not merely content themselves with looking in.
Rem Perfecting — you are referring to the thought of faith. Perfecting them unto full assurance in faith.
JT Yes. “Present every man perfect in Christ Jesus”, it says. The kind of power that is involved in resurrection does not affect material things; it takes you out of them without affecting them. They remain as they were. It is not literal sight but faith.
JJ In Hebrews 10, the perfecting is connected with the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
JT That is perfecting as to the conscience. You never have any more conscience of sins, but perfecting involves formation, being brought into correspondence with Christ all round — your affections and your intelligence. The great need with the saints is for investigation; we are so casual, content with any little thing — what do they say? I am with the brethren, I am breaking bread, and the like — that is about all. Really and truly, you are largely depending on them, not on your own faith, which should lead you into touch with God.
As we were saying, in Acts 14 Paul saw that the [p. 539] man had faith. That man heard Paul speaking; he would follow up what Paul said; he had never heard a man speak like that; he would go to the meeting and hear Paul speak. It is interest in the vessel that the Lord uses.
Rem You do not get everything at once, but these disciples were in the way, and the Lord was teaching them.
JT That is right; they are where the light might reasonably be expected to be. Peter already seemed to have some inkling although he should have had more understanding. The Lord had greatly stressed that He would rise the third day, and they ought to have been moving on that line. But they investigate; they go into the sepulchre. Investigation, that is the thing.
Rem Moses turned aside to see the great sight.
JT Yes, he resolved to do it; it says, “I will now turn”. It is resolve, determination to have the thing right.
Ques Why did the disciples go to their own home after they investigated?
JT Well, it is hardly to their credit that they went to their own home, but it is certainly to their credit that they believed on investigation. More is made of Mary. She is more honoured, but she finds herself calling the Lord the gardener, it is a humbling thing that in spite of yourself you call Him a gardener, “supposing him to be the gardener”. Many make mistakes when left to themselves; they do not say the right thing.
SG What would be equivalent today to calling the Lord the gardener?
JT Well, you listen to the average christian around, and hear what he says. If you really question him, what does he say about this and that? It is distressing to hear what he does say.
Ques Would it be wrong thoughts concerning the [p. 540] state of this world and christendom? Many think today that they are going to make things better; the world is a garden, so to speak.
JT Yes. Of course you could not have a more useful man than a gardener if you are going to cultivate a garden; they bring the Lord down to that level.
GFG Do we see how Peter got the gain of what he saw there, when he quoted this in Acts 2”Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption”? He referred to it.
JT Yes, it shows how he brings the Old Testament in to confirm what we have there. The Lord challenges His disciples, “Who do men say that I the Son of man am?” What are people saying? He supposes that we know what they are saying, and if we are looking around to find those who are the subjects of the work of God we shall hear what they say, and be a help to them in what they are saying. One says, Elias, another says, John the baptist; they did not mean to be disrespectful to the Lord, but that is where they were; they could not say any more. Another says, Jeremias, or one of the prophets, it did not matter much; someone of distinction, that is about all.
WHM In Matthew 13: 55 they had said, “Is not this the son of the carpenter?” They only saw in Him the son of Joseph — not Joseph’s Lord.
JT Just so. It is in view of the assembly that the Lord raises this question. What material is there for the assembly?
Ques Is it the work of God that has to come to light?
JT You mean Peter and John. Yes, without saying so, they saw and believed, which leaves the thought of faith open; it is very wide in its bearing.
WHM They do not seem to have seen the angels as Mary of Magdala did.
JT Well, I think it is to their credit that they [p. 541] believed without that. Many would be glad to see angels, and think they would believe if they saw them, but the investigation spiritually does not require that. It is a greater thing to believe without the angels. “Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed”.
Ques What thought have you as to the running and out-running? Is it the energy of love?
JT I think so. It is creditable, although perhaps a little unseemly, to see people running like this, especially women, but I suppose it corresponds with the hind of the morning; the word there is feminine, the hind of the morning. So that this is the feminine answer to the power that is there.
AEL In the last chapter of Matthew it is mentioned that the women ran, too.
JT It appears to be a bit unseemly, yet the Spirit of God values it. We would like to see a little more of that energy now.
JJ Peter comes last to the sepulchre, and goes in first. How do you understand that?
JT Peter has the lead; John has the lead in running; Peter gets the lead in intelligence, because he entered into the sepulchre. It is very interesting to note how Peter loses the lead sometimes and gains it at other times. He loses it in the running but gains it in intelligence here. In chapter 21 he loses it again; he did not discern the Lord on the shore; John did. John says, “It is the Lord”, so that John is ahead of him, but presently Peter is casting himself into the sea to reach Jesus; he is getting the lead again; generally speaking it is Peter who has the lead.
WHM John’s testimony here is beautiful; “He saw and believed”.
JT That is said of John; the way it is put would indicate that.
RMcB How does this work out today?
JT Well, it is a question of investigation; [p. 542] the work of God is accompanied by intelligence, and the point is to use it. “Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding”, 2 Timothy 2:7. They would use their intelligence, and investigate; things are worth investigating. As we remarked the other day, seven men accompanied Paul on his last journey east from Macedonia as far as Asia, and the first spoken of is Sopater, who was a Berean: that is, in the members of the company the leading man is an investigator, a man who would look into things, and prove all things, and hold fast that which is good. He would not call a man a heretic without investigating, nor would he swallow down a new doctrine without investigating it.
Ques Is Mary rightly adjusted when she calls the Lord “Rabboni”?
JT Yes, she has come to it now. ‘My Teacher’ is actually the force of it; she had been calling Him “Lord” rightly enough; she had said, “the Lord” when speaking to the disciples. She said,”my Lord”, now she says, ‘my Teacher’. She is acknowledging that this is where she had been defective. She is like thousands of christians who lack teaching because they do not investigate; they do not go into the sepulchre.
Ques Is discernment very deficient with us owing to a lack of investigating things before the Lord? If the Lord says something to us we are found criticising, but when a brother comes along with a fanciful thought we swallow that.
JT A Berean would search the Scriptures daily, to see if these things were so. That, I suppose, would be part of his daily work, as to things that claim his attention. The Lord said, “Take heed therefore how ye hear” (Luke 8: 18), and how important it is for us!
GM Would this be what you would look upon as soul history?
JT That is the idea. A person who travels [p. 543] through exercise should be able to stand upon his own feet in course of time. I think Mary represents one class of christians today and Peter and John another. Peter and John represent brothers who come to the meetings and say the right thing, but they go home, that is, they look after their comfort. Perhaps they are wanting in self-sacrifice; they live at home more or less, and yet they read and know the truth and are thankful for it; but Mary represents devotedness, although it is accompanied by darkness and lack of investigation; the combination of the two really makes up the kind of thing that we need. If you have affection for the Lord you will come into the light; He will see to that, it may be by sending angels to look after you.
Rem It would help us in coming to the Supper, keep us from closing our eyes and not seeing the brethren come in.
JT That is right. I remember about forty or fifty years ago when a brother came into the meeting he would kneel down and pray by himself to God; that is, he did not have the idea of the assembly, he isolated himself.
Ques Does this soul history begin with resurrection? Those in the light of resurrection would not be hampered by material things.
JT Exactly. What they saw in the sepulchre was spiritual; the material things, the wrappings, remained as they were; if anyone had stolen the body of the Lord, they would have stolen Him with the wrappings on; they would not have taken them off; if they had taken them off there would have been derangement. It was a movement outside of what was material; it involved the power of God, and that entered in to make up the assembly. Of course it is within the range of material things, too, it is composed of persons of flesh and blood, but properly it is the spiritual order of things.
[p. 544] Ques In relation to that, do you think the graves will be opened at the resurrection? You spoke of no movement of material things.
JT I think so. It says of the saints in Matthew 27, “The graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose ... and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many”. I suppose the opening of a grave is for testimony. It is not necessary to open it materially for a saint to come out, but I think it belongs to the power of resurrection. They rolled away the stone from the sepulchre where Lazarus was, but I apprehend the Lord came out before the angel came down and rolled away the stone; we are told elsewhere, “and sat on it”. That was in order to let the disciples look in, to let them see what had happened.
Rem I suppose that after the rapture there would be those on the earth who would want to see things, hence the opened graves, as you say, would be a testimony.
JT Yes. These two classes of christians are worthy of note, because it brings out the full position as to service. There are those who are intelligent, who profit by ministry that God gives His people; they may go to their own homes, which is not to their credit, but they certainly are credited with intelligence. They have investigated and found out the truth. Then there is the class, and I suppose there are very many, who do not investigate; they love the Lord, and go in for service and many other such things, but know nothing about the present ministry, and never look into it; they may hear it, but they do not investigate it, and there they are, misnaming the Lord; the Lord has to act providentially; the angels represent that side, but the angels, if they come into their range, come in in relation to Christ where He was — one at the head and the other at the feet — so as to impress upon us that He is a [p. 545] dignified Person: He is God. The angels knew that. People who do not investigate must not talk lightly or irreverently about Jesus.
Rem The sluggard in Proverbs and he who lacks understanding are linked together. If we are marked by being sluggards we will lack understanding.
JT Quite so. What marks these people is their good instinct: the movements that are accredited to Mary are very remarkable, the way she turns herself, turns round. It is to be noticed in the passage, she says, “If thou hast borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away”. In verse 14 she turns backward, that is, Jesus was behind her, meaning she was not looking in the right direction before. Now she turns round. People are so much occupied with what they are in, it is hard to get them to turn round, to be converted. You have been in the wrong way, in spite of your love to Christ, and not moving in the right direction.
AEL It is His voice that makes her turn round.
JT Yes. “The Lord knoweth them that are his”; but how often He may call us, and we do not turn round, we keep on in the old line.
Rem You said just now they misname Him.
JT I mean to say devotedness carries people here and there, not on the right line.
Rem She spoke of Him as “my Lord”.
JT Yes, but she called Him the gardener. She was actually speaking to the Lord, but she thought He was the gardener. I suppose she had in her mind, and I suppose it is in every religion, the improvement of the world.
Rem So that she misnamed Him.
JT Yes. He is not regulating the world, or cultivating the world; He is developing a heavenly place. So that when He says “Mary”, she turns herself round. That is what is needed if people are to come into things. You never can tell how much [p. 546] God may make of such a person — one who turns round like that. She is entrusted with the greatest message ever sent to the saints.
Rem John turned to see in Revelation.
JT Exactly. He was looking in the right direction, having seen the assembly, but in regard of the history of the testimony after the assembly has gone, he is called back to see what is happening. He turned to see the Voice.
RMcB I suppose there is no guarantee — we might be converted for years and never touch this.
JT I think there are very few who touch it, really. It is the instincts that you notice here — how she turned back, and then round; then how she recognised the Lord’s voice calling “Mary”, and how she called Him ‘my Teacher’. It is a matter of teaching with the Lord — instruction.
Rem She responds.
JT Yes, she illustrates that side, the work of God without proper intelligence.
GM In the first case He addressed her as “Woman”. She did not seem to recognise His voice.
JT In verse 13, “And they say to her, Woman, why dost thou weep?” The angels say that; then it says, “Having said these things she turned backward and beholds Jesus standing there, and knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus says to her, Woman, why dost thou weep?” Well, I suppose that is what she was; it is important that we should know what we are, and our place in the assembly.
Rem Each is apparently regarded individually. Peter saw certain things, and then John went in, and saw and believed; then she speaks of “L” Do you think all have to be gathered up and come together by the message? That is what they arrive at?
JT Exactly. What instruction culminates in that message! She would do much. Devoted people go into the heart of China and risk their lives and, of [p. 547] course, you would respect them for that, but she was ready to carry Him away herself! Perhaps it was more than she could do. She would make personal sacrifice, but it is not that sort of thing at all; it is a question of intelligence. “Teacher” — that is the teaching that is needed.
RMcB Nicodemus commenced with that in his history. He says, “Thou art come a teacher from God”.
JT Yes, it runs through John’s gospel; the first two disciples who followed call him Rabbi — Teacher.
Ques Would “woman” represent a mature thought, just as “man” would?
JT That is right.
FA Would you say a word in relation to the message?
JT Well, it is so familiar. It is to bring out the effect of the perfecting of the saints; one might become qualified to carry such a message to the saints in a comely way. She came to the disciples and told them she had seen the Lord and that He had said these things to her; that is all. She takes no position of teacher as many women do today; she is just the bearer of the message, no thought of gift entering into it. And then the Lord points out by the way He comes in — the doors being shut — what the new thing is; it is independent of what is material.
Ques Is there a difference between the saints looked at as “My brethren” and as sons?
JT Well, there is. John only once says we are sons, that is in Revelation 21; He does not touch that side: he touches rather “brethren”. The brethren are the sons of God. It is more what we are to Christ in this chapter than what we are to God. His brethren, that He has brethren, the result of all these sufferings, and death, and all this perfecting and teaching is for the development of the features [p. 548] of brethren, involving intelligence as well as affection.
JJ Why is it at this point that it says, “I ascend to my Father and your Father”? It is at the moment He is about to ascend, that He brings them into the light of this?
JT It is to bring out what we have already had. Christianity is on the ground not only of resurrection but of ascension. It is a heavenly thing. The church is heavenly. So that it says, “I ascend”, not ‘I will ascend’, not an historical reference; it is the principle of the thing. “I ascend to my Father and your Father”. He is the One who ascends, and the message comes from Him, and then He comes in after the message, as if He came in from heaven, so that the position is heavenly — not merely the ground of resurrection, but heavenly.
Rem The testimony of this reaching the disciples seemed to bring Peter and John out of their own homes again.
JT Well, they were there; they were in the upper room; it says, “where the disciples were”.
WHM Would you say a word on “He breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit”?
JT Well, I think that would bring in another thought, that we need more than intelligence, we need the Spirit of Jesus Christ, it is life; but I think it is more His Spirit in view of their commission. He was giving them a commission, and if we are commissioned by Him we are set up as representatives of Him, and if we are to be representative we must have His Spirit. Philippians is the epistle that opens it up, the Spirit of Jesus Christ; and He commits Himself to us in the commission, because it says, “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained”. Remission comes before retention here, which is important, because it is a question of the last days; and if we are found as brethren, how are we getting [p. 549] along? We are not charging them with evil, we are rather remitting; that is the principle: we do not hold things against them.
Ques So that God’s thought in regard to breathing into the man would be secured here? Would it be representation?
JT That is right. “As the Father sent me forth”. As the Father had sent Him He would send them, and they are to represent the Lord that bought them. Supplies of the Spirit of Jesus Christ were given.
Ques I would like a little help as to what we have in Corinthians, ‘calling into presence’, and the Lord coming into their midst.
JT ‘Calling into presence’ is too strong. It is “calling to mind”. You cannot call Him into presence. The presence must involve His action. Calling Him to mind is not calling Him into presence. He is in your mind, it is a question of remembrance.
WHM I am glad you say that; for years brethren have been talking about ‘calling Him into presence’. I have protested and said, ‘But who are we to call Him into presence?’ It is His act if He deigns to come.
JT Yes, it is His act; this chapter shows that He came, the doors being shut, and after eight days He came again.
Ques Was this a distinct thing as a result? There are conditions to which He can come?
JT That is right. I mean you must leave divine Persons free to act. You must never make Them act automatically.
Ques You speak of His presence. How would you describe it? As an actual presence? We do not see His body; is He present as a spirit?
JT Spirit; so that you say, “It is the Lord”. It is not easy to distinguish between the presence and action of the Spirit and the presence and action of the Lord. It is the real Presence nevertheless. In the [p. 550] Old Testament divine visitations were very frequent, and nearly always angelic; that is, God came in, Jehovah came in representatively, so that the angel came and sat over against the oak where Gideon threshed wheat in the winepress, and the angel talked to him, and presently Jehovah spoke; it was an angelic medium; now it is the Spirit; it is perfectly intelligible, although we cannot enter into what happens, but it does happen. It is quite remarkable if you recognise the Holy Spirit as a divine Person here, the Lord comes in in that way; the Holy Spirit can make His presence felt — not only His own presence, but the presence of the Lord. You recognise that the Lord is present. It is not merely power, but a spirit of breathing. He is present in the Holy Spirit. He says, “I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter”, and then He says, “I will not leave you; ... I will come”.
Ques Is it akin to the line of the hymn: ‘By the Spirit all pervading’ (14:5)?
JT Pretty much.
Ques Would it be on the line of the declaration? When the Son declared the Father, the Father was there present?
JT That is right. “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me?” John 14: 9. The Father is there.