ENTERING THE HOLIEST AND WALKING BY FAITH
[p. 343] ENTERING THE HOLIEST AND WALKING BY FAITH
JT I suppose the holiest is introduced to show how we have liberty of approach to God, that we should draw near. It is a wilderness setting. It is the “true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man”, but it is nevertheless pitched. It is not built, but pitched. It is a wilderness position, and therefore provisional, so that we might have liberty and know how to draw near to God. “Let us draw near” is the point, and then “not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together”; so that you might say the whole of Hebrews is initial. It would be a question, therefore, of the individual believer understanding that he has liberty of approach, and how he may approach with intelligence and acceptably to God. The holiest is in that setting, and it is in order that the individual entering may see what obtains before God, so that what obtains here in the way of religious service might be displaced in his mind: all that is clerical, and the whole fabric of christendom would be displaced in the man’s mind who has had a look into the holiest.
HFN Would you give us a little help in regard to the thought of the minister of the sanctuary in chapter 8, and then what is involved in the thought of the great priest? You emphasised the fact that the tabernacle had been pitched; what would be the distinctive bearing of the thought of the great priest in relation to the holiest?
JT The great Priest is over the house of God, that is to say, it is not a local thought, it is a wide universal thought, and one phrase that helps throughout the epistle is that we have such an One as that.
[p. 344] It is to assure us that every provision is made that we might draw near. The great Priest is on our side; we have Him: “Having a great priest over the house of God, let us approach”. Our footing in the house is determined by Him.
MWB Would you say that in the development of the epistle there is anything that reaches to the height of chapter 2, the Sanctifier and the sanctified all of one? Where do we reach that in the development of the epistle?
JT It is doubtful whether we do reach it. It is there objectively in chapter 2 as involving more than the wilderness, but the point here is to draw near. What you get after you draw near is left to be found out — what God is in His own realm. This is to get us to draw near.
MWB You are brought to the doorway, so to speak, with liberty of entrance, but there is no development of that which lies beyond.
JT The apostle says that he could not go very far with them because they were dull of hearing, but the point is to draw near, and if you do so, you get liberated and warmed. It is the realm of God.
JS Do you suggest the “not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together” would follow entering the holiest?
JT The fact that he has to enjoin the brethren not to forsake the assembling of themselves together shows, among other things, that they were very low down. You can hardly say he develops much the idea that we being many are all of one: “For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren”. That is an exalted thought. You cannot make much of that where people are neglecting to come together. If you cannot get people to assemble together it is not much use except in a sort of objective [p. 345] way. Great things lie beyond, but you do not develop them until you have drawn near.
MWB So is chapter 2 brought in rather as light for encouragement, and then left as to practical development?
JT I think so. The full setting of the truth is there, but as to the actual point to which we are brought I do not think we go beyond that, that the way is there for you to draw nigh. So it is, “Let us approach”. Drawing near to God is the point. It is not drawing near to the holiest, but getting near to God.
Ques Why is a certain state suggested? “Let us draw near”.
JT That is one of the main thoughts in the epistle to get people to move forward. The point was they were lapsing back into ceremonial religion; they were very low down, and so the practical state was needed: “sprinkled as to our hearts from a wicked conscience, and washed as to our body with pure water”.
EuR Would you say a little more as to the distinction between drawing near to God and drawing near to the holiest?
JT Drawing near to the holiest is just a type brought in on account of the persons addressed. It would not have been used if the letter had been addressed to gentile believers. It is just a typical expression which means we may be in the holiest place and see what is there. It is to undo the influence of current religion. You see what is before God, but then the point is to draw near to God. It is not the God of the types exactly; when he says, “Let us draw near”, he has in mind the full christian position of God known in Christ.
JJ What would you say is the epistle that immediately follows [p. 346] this?
JT Romans would really run parallel with it, and viewed collectively, I should say 1 Corinthians. It is not beyond any of those epistles, but scarcely up to them.
Ques Would it be right to say that Hebrews 11 is the result of God drawing near, and then the mind to draw near to Him, and then being maintained there?
JT Just so. Chapter 11 is the good company we are in, the men who walked and acted by faith. We are surrounded by “so great a cloud of witnesses”, and all that is on the line of encouragement to get into the spiritual realm.
WCG Was the psalmist in that mind when he said, “I had rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God, than dwell in the tents of wickedness”, Psalm 84: 10?
JT You just get a look in, but as you draw near, God says, I want you to see that this is what is before Me, it is another world. But this is initial. It is to get us to see what is there. So if I draw near to God I shall get all that and much more that is not opened up here, because the apostle says expressly that he could not go very far with them.
WCG Is it not very much akin to walking in the light as God is in the light?
JT Pretty much.
MWB I should like to get a little more clear on the details given as to entering the holiest. How far does the “new and living way” take you? What does it imply?
JT Well, it is christianity just in contrast to judaism.
MWB Does it imply a new order of man?
JT Quite so; all that christianity involves. It is the way opened up for us in the death and resurrection of Christ. There was no life in the old system; of course, the priests were alive, but the sacrifices [p. 347] were dead. It is christianity, to be simple and general about it: “The new and living way which he has dedicated for us through the veil, that is, his flesh”.
I do not know what else to say. It would take most of us all our lives to understand this new and living way. It is very needful now because christianity has been lost sight of. The old way is judaism or heathendom, that which we have all around us, combinations of men; christianity is a new way which is living, and which is seen characteristically in all the epistles, for the idea of life is in them. So, if anybody wanted to go there, I should like to take him to a spiritual meeting where intelligent brethren approach God. There you get the idea of the living way, but if you went to any of the denominations I suppose you would get the old way. It becomes very practical. It is “a new and living way”, but then the Lord Jesus has dedicated it for us through the veil, that is, His flesh. It has cost Him much, and that always touches our hearts. The subject really opens up at the beginning of chapter 8 where you get the Lord introduced as the great Priest and the Minister of the sanctuary, and what follows is that He has somewhat to offer. What is touched from that point onwards, till you reach chapter 10: 19, is a question of the covenant, so that our hearts should be released in the sense of the love of God. All that is to get us into liberty of soul, and where the covenant is understood and you get brethren together, there is the new and living way. They understand the death of Christ and they understand it cost Him His flesh to make the way in for us, and so we are there in liberty, not only because of what is said, but because of what is shown by the Holy Spirit (chapter 9: 8). I suppose the apostle could not direct them to an assembly in Judaea where you could see that, but possibly it could be seen in Ephesus.
MWB Then in a general way would Exodus [p. 348] 24 be analogous to what is developed in chapters 8 and 9?
JT Pretty much; you get there the volume of blood and the youthfulness of the offerers. It is a scene of order and intelligence and youthful freshness, and the volume of blood. That is the idea, that you are set there in the light of the covenant.
PL Do you get this in Psalm 43? “Send out thy light and thy truth: they shall lead me, they shall bring me to thy holy mount, and unto thy habitations. Then will I go unto the altar of God, unto the God of the gladness of my joy”. Does that link up with Hebrews, the altar bringing in the Mediator of the covenant?
JT I think it does. What has been said about Exodus 24 helps, because the people are challenged as to the covenant, and they commit themselves to it. They entered into it with their eyes opened, and then Moses begins to act, and the young men come forward and offer up the offerings. There is abundance of blood, and the people are sprinkled and the book is sprinkled. The blood is for God and is in volume. So we are in the presence of God, what God is to us in Christ. And not only that, but there are the youthful offerers; there is nothing stale, it is in the energy and vigour of youthful life. That is the kind of thing I understand to indicate the holiest; it is to be shown in an abstract way, how people move towards God.
WCG So it says, “In whose heart are the ways”, Psalm 84: 5.
JT Exactly, the ways of Zion. God would appeal to us to draw near to Him, not in fleshly energy but in intelligence as to what is before Him. The holiest denotes what is before God, what He is looking at. It is not a family position, it is on the sands of the desert; it is a question of light and understanding of what is before God. But when we get into the presence of God He has flooring in His abode, “Under his feet ... paved work of a sapphire stone”, and He brings us there.
Ques Is it on the line of James 4: 8, “Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you”?
JT Just so.
HFN How does what you say bear on what comes out in chapter 12, that we have come to “God, judge of all”? What is the thought in coming near to God in relation to the holiest and then coming to God as the Judge of all? Are the two thoughts distinct or bound up together?
JT Of course in that chapter you have the whole range of God’s world viewed officially. It is not exactly the family, although the family is part of it. The “assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven” is a class of dignitaries; but the whole range of God’s world is viewed officially, as you might look at this or any country. But then there is going on in secret in any country what is not spoken of at all — love’s abode. In chapter 12 we have the whole range of God’s world in official relations, and so “God, judge of all” is necessarily there. It is not the Father but the Judge of all, for you must have everything that is legalised for a world according to God. But drawing near to God is not quite that. If we draw near to God, He will, as Exodus 15 says, bring us in. It is very beautiful: “Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, The place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling, The Sanctuary, Lord, that thy hands have prepared”.
HFN I think that is very helpful. Would it be right to say in regard to the writer of the epistle, that from the fact of his going into the holiest he is able to bring all the light of the future system into the present moment?
JT I am sure that is good, because after Exodus 24 the whole book is engaged, you might say, with [p. 350] the tabernacle. It is very suggestive. God has got His people with Himself in principle, and now He says, I will open up what is in My mind for you; and that is what this epistle is intended to do, only it is corrective. They had retrograded, and that made it all the more difficult.
JRS Is what you have said in regard to Exodus in the thought of God bringing us in what you spoke about? I felt it was encouraging, that as we have drawn near, God would bring us in.
JT He would bring us in and not only disclose what He has objectively in Christ, but make us understand what we are in Christ, which involves the land. Exodus 15 goes on to the land, and also, as a matter of fact, to David and Solomon. So that chapter 11 is the good company you are brought into. There is not a word about faith in the wilderness in it. We have been engaged with the wilderness; chapter 10 is that. I mean, what we have been engaged in up to the point of drawing near to God is the wilderness position, but there is not a word said in chapter 11 about faith in the wilderness. So it is not so much a question of faith drawing near. Of course, there is “full assurance of faith”, but it is by the “new and living way”, the Spirit.
MWB Why is there no allusion to faith in the wilderness, nor any allusion to the wilderness in this chapter?
JT It is very significant that, whilst the wilderness is the position taken up in the book, faith passes it over, the history of faith does not include it. It would indicate that the standpoint in this chapter is the work of God. There is no faith aside from the work of God. I think it somewhat throws light on John 1: 4: “In him was life, and the life was the light of men”. It is the life, the light of men.
JJ Why is there so much place given to Genesis [p. 351] in the chapter? Is that because of the life that was in those patriarchs?
JT I think so. It is to show that the light of life shone. Of course, theologians make John 1:4 a question of the Logos before incarnation, whereas it is not so. It is a question of what was in manhood, whether before or after incarnation. If it is before incarnation it is what was reflected.
JJ Showing the kind of light that shone in those men.
JT It was the light that was anticipated in the life of Jesus. That light shone in one way or another, and we get the account of it here. So we are in the realm of life in this chapter as it appeared in different ages from the beginning. It is the variety of life anticipating the incarnation. What shone in Jesus here upon earth was reflected backwards because He is the Author of faith, it says. There is really no faith outside of Him; He is the Author of it, not in the Deity but in Manhood. It is in manhood that the idea of faith comes out. He is the Author and Finisher of faith; so wherever faith exists it is a reflection of Christ, but in a living way.
EuR So in John 1 it refers to “those that believe on his name”, and then it says, “who have been born”. Would that bear out your thought as to faith being connected with the work of God?
JT Quite so; there could be no believing without that.
EJMcB Do you understand that if one draws nigh to God it is not a question then of anything here but of what is before God, and so the wilderness does not appear in it? What God is operating Himself comes into your mind as you have drawn nigh to Him.
JT That is the idea, only He has brought that into the wilderness, to where we are, so that we might know what is before Him. It is not that I get up to [p. 352] heaven where Christ is, but God has brought it down here; it is a wilderness position.
EJMcB That was your point in John: “In him was life, and the life was the light of men”.
JT That is it. You get the idea in Him, so that, whether the light reflected backwards or is coming on now to us, it is the same light, the light of the life of Christ. So that in this chapter I apprehend we are in the realm of life; we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses who have gone this way. They have lived by faith, so to speak; they lived in spite of conditions. The conditions of life had really not come in yet; they could not come in until Christ became Man and died and went up into heaven and the Holy Spirit came down; the conditions of life could not exist aside from all that, but the light of this reflected backwards, and these men walked in it in spite of the conditions.
MWB Would it be right to say that morally the elements of life were in them individually, though there was no sphere in which they could yet live save in the knowledge of God?
JT That is what I thought. It is not that they had eternal life; eternal life had not yet come into form. The Lord said, “I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly”, John 10: 10. That would be what we have, but this is the light of that reflected backwards. It is not the rays of the sun in the heavens, but the reflection of the rising sun. The principle was there of walking and living by faith.
PL So is Enoch introduced in Jude on that principle? He is found in life in spite of the conditions of apostasy there.
JT Quite so, the principle of life applied to him. The chapter emphasises death; he died, he died, he died, but this one man did not die, and God establishes the principle of life. If you get the principle it [p. 353] is enough. Genesis is a book of principles, a book of roots, as has often been remarked, and you get the great principle of life in Enoch; he did not die.
WCG The Lord said, “He that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life”, John 8: 12.
JT It is well for us to see that chapter 11 opens up a realm of life, but not in the sense in which it will be seen in the world to come, because eternal life had not taken form. “The eternal life, which was with the Father ...” is not His eternal existence, but the life having taken form now in a Man on earth, and we are brought into it. We have it, but then the principle was there from the beginning, and faith depends on that.
Ques Would you say that the reflection of the light of Christ backwards was dependent upon the Spirit of Christ?
JT Exactly; the Spirit of Christ was there. We see it in Noah; it is the retro-active action of the Spirit of Christ, but the Spirit of Christ as Man. We have to distinguish between that and the Holy Spirit as presented in Genesis 1 and Genesis 6. It is the same Spirit, of course; in Genesis 1 it is the Spirit of God, but in Genesis 6 it is the Spirit of Christ.
Ques They “killed the Prince (or Author) of life”, Acts 3: 15. That would refer to Him in manhood?
JT Exactly. Of course, He could only be that as a divine Person, but it is Christ in manhood; He is the Author of life in manhood.
MWB So these features of faith in chapter 11 are really the features or qualities of life, are they not?
JT Yes. You feel it is a humbling fact that the writer has to bring them forward; the Jewish christians must have been very low down that he could not appeal to current conditions. The great appeal to the Old Testament in this book is very [p. 354] significant, and he brings in the living side. He has dealt with the typical side, but now he brings in the living side, and he might say, These men had no such advantages as you; they lived in faith in spite of conditions, you ought to live in faith in your conditions.
Ques Is it because they were a people in life that it is said that God was not ashamed to be called their God?
JT Just so. He is the living God, and not only so, but in some of them there was a heavenly mind.
They did not think of “Jerusalem which now is”, but they waited for a city which for them had foundations. The apostle says in effect there were men in those days far beyond you; they were thinking of the heavenly city.
PL Is that why these persons are brought in in that heavenly system? “The spirits of just men made perfect” — does that refer to these persons?
JT Quite so.
WW Do you make a distinction between the conditions that existed then and those that are now?
JT The conditions that now are, are conditions of life. They are opened up in the first epistle of John. He shows that the life has come; it is no imaginative thing, but seen and handled. “That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life; (and the life has been manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us:) that which we have seen and heard we report to you, that ye also may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ”, 1 John 1: 1 - 3. The conditions of life are there. “These things have I written to you that [p. 355] ye may know that ye have eternal life”, chapter 5: 13. That word “know” is conscious knowledge. It could not be said of any of these men of faith; the conditions of life had not come in, but they were living in spite of conditions with little or nothing to support them.
MWB It gives the chapter a very interesting setting, to look back on living features.
JT Quite so. The idea of faith is substantiating things, making things substantial. Enoch never heard anything about faith. The word is only mentioned once in all the Old Testament, and that is a remarkable thing, because the time of faith had not come. So these men were living on the principle before the thing had come; they were living in it in spite of conditions.
JJ I thought the expression in Habakkuk had the idea of faithfulness.
JT Faith in Deuteronomy is that, but faith in Habakkuk is just what we are speaking about.
JJ How far did the Lord Himself have faith?
He is the Leader and Completer of faith. Was that not in connection with these men and not Himself exactly?
JT He was the Leader of it, and that only emphasises what we are saying, that it was anticipative. It says, “The just shall live by faith”, not ‘is living’. But now it is not the just shall live, but the just are living by faith.
Ques Is that why it is brought in in verse 6?
“He that draws near to God must believe that he is”.
JT That emphasises what we have been saying.
Drawing near to God implies faith; we must believe that He is. So that the history runs on to Sarah.
The chapter is very markedly divided up for us into subjects, and it runs on to Sarah in the end of verse 12, so that we might get some idea of the power of conception. It is by faith, so that there might be seed,
[p. 356] that there might be increase. As it says, “Wherefore also there have been born of one, and that of one become dead, even as the stars of heaven in multitude, and as the countless sand which is by the sea shore”. That is the kind of increase that is intimated. It is a question of conception, the power of life subjectively for increase. When you come to that point, then the apostle generalises: “All these died in faith, not having received the promises”. They did not receive the promises; we have received them; in principle we have received everything by the reception of the Spirit.
Ques It is stressed in the epistle to the Galatians that faith has come; is that because they were turning back to what was formal and dead?
JT Quite so; it is very much akin to this epistle, so that the period of faith is stressed in Galatians. We have no list of worthies in that epistle; it is rather to show there that the period of faith did not begin until Christ came to bring out that the position now is that of sonship. We do well to notice how they all “died in faith, not having received the promises”. That is the position; they lived in spite of adverse conditions; and it is not only that the outward conditions were adverse but the life conditions, the furnishings of life, were not there; and yet they lived by faith.
Ques Would you make a difference between faith here and the way Jude speaks of it: “Building yourselves up on your most holy faith” (verse 20)?
JT Jude has in mind not only the element of faith in your soul but the system of truth that you believe, that you “contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints”. It is the system of truth, but this truth held in the soul.
FSM What would you say as to the secret of increase in a locality? You referred in prayer to the [p. 357] evidence of increase generally. Would Sarah be the principle on which increase would come in?
JT I think so; she ends the section in the chapter. She represents the power of conception; as it says, “By faith also Sarah herself received strength for the conception of seed, and that beyond a seasonable age; since she counted him faithful who promised. Wherefore also ...”. It is the immensity of the result, of the seed. So that would be something for us in our meetings — the power of conception of seed.
JRS Some of us are feeling the lack of increase.
JT Well, that is a point to be taken into account. Of course, the Lord is taking many away, and that will go on, but we want the faith of Sarah.
JJ Would you link Rahab, the other woman that is mentioned, with her? She finishes another section.
JT We may just touch on that as showing the work of God. The list really closes with her as to specific cases, and I think she represents the work of God in the land; she brings us into the land. Not that she entered into it; she was there, but she represents the work of God by itself without any external help.
WW Would Lydia’s state of soul give you the idea of the subjective state that would be amenable to Paul’s ministry?
JT Yes. God opened her heart; she received the kind of thing into her heart that would develop. The conception of seed is not the word of God. There are two ideas in seed. It says, “He does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed; which is Christ”, Galatians 3: 16. He is the great idea of Seed personally. But in the first parable in Matthew 13 the seed is the word of God. That is the kind of seed that Lydia received; she received the word of God in its exalted character, that is to say, whatever Paul said; she attended to [p. 358] the things spoken by Paul. That would be for the conception of seed, that there might be such persons at Philippi as are indicated in the second parable in Matthew 13, the parable of the tares, where the seed are persons. That is the idea in Sarah; she conceived and brought forth seed.
Ques Do you connect power with faith, that is to say, the power of inception and the power of conception, according to Luke?
JT There you get the most exalted thought of conception: “The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and power of the Highest overshadow thee, wherefore the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God”. That is the greatest idea of seed, indeed, it is what is alluded to in Galatians: not to seeds, but to seed, which is Christ. That is the greatest thought, but I think Sarah represents something more; I mean as to its application to ourselves. It is the idea of persons being conceived, that is, brought forth; as the apostle says in Galatians “My children, of whom I again travail in birth until Christ shall have been formed in you”. The person in whom Christ is formed is seed.
WL Is there a progressive line indicated in the earlier verses of the chapter leading up to Sarah?
JT The chapter is very constructive, so that we are delivered from the power of the sciences, as they are called. Of course, we may take and use them, but many are held and darkened by them. There is not an atom of faith in the sciences at all, whether astronomy or geology, the two great sciences that are set aside in the first verses. “By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God”. What a grand and comprehensive thought, setting the saints in relation to God in their souls in regard of the universe! We know the history in that way. Then we have the idea of drawing near to God in Abel: “By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain”. How did he get the idea? We speak of the disadvantages of many, but see the disadvantages of Abel. No doubt he enquired from his father and mother, and no doubt they told him something, but the moral element was in his soul or he would never have drawn near to God with an excellent sacrifice. Then in Enoch, as we were saying, we have the great thought of life in a man that was not; he had no part in the course of this world, and God took him. It is a question of that form of life that pleases God, which is fit for heaven. Then we have the condemnation of the world. That is a mighty thing, that one man should condemn the world. You see that in the construction of the ark. We have the idea of framing in the earlier verse, but with Noah it was the idea of construction or preparing “By which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith”.
JRS I would like a word as to the difference between framing and constructing.
JT Of course it is the word ‘preparation’, but it involved the construction of a sea-going vessel. ‘Framing’, I think, implies due preparation without which you could not have the universe, because God is “a God of measure”. We have no specifications of the universe; it is beyond us to take in the specifications of the universe. But we get the specifications of the ark — both the ark of Noah and the ark of the tabernacle. That is to say, we are able to compass moral things but not the physical universe.
JRS What you have said helps in regard to many expressions in Proverbs and Job as to framing.
JT I do not suppose anybody saw the specifications. Wisdom is greatly stressed in Proverbs in that connection. It is a question of wisdom’s operations.
EJMcB Then, with regard to the question of increase in local meetings and the faith of Sarah, is [p. 360] that a faith which believes in God’s capability of bringing things into being where there is nothing?
JT Yes. She and Abraham were dead, so it is the power of God in any locality. You reckon on what God can do, but you would look to see that kind of faith, the faith of increase.
EJMcB So that we are not so much bothered with numbers. If it be one where that principle is at work a vast multitude may spring from it.
JT Yes.
HFN Is there any link between what you have been speaking of in Sarah, and Rahab in relation to the work of God, and then, would the third woman — Moses’ mother — bring in the kind of child that would be born in the locality, the child beautiful?
JT That is lovely. Will you not tell us something about that? You want to look round on the young brothers and sisters to see the loveliness. “They saw the child beautiful”. Apparently his parents were the first to see it.
HFN Does it not emphasise the thought of hiding? If Sarah’s faith is brought in, would the principle of hiding come in as locally we see that the child beautiful appears?
JT I think so. It is the epistle to the Colossians, which teaches us how to hide according to God. I think that is very good. That is, you keep the child out of the way of the world, away from the enemy.
JJ And Rahab’s place in the genealogy in Matthew is wonderful. What a conception she had, in the direct line of David!
JT The result was a great distance off. It is undoubtedly the same Rahab, and it shows what may happen a long way off. We are not too local; we have a long look-out, and so the generations in Matthew are most interesting in that way. It is the thing a long way off, faith going down the line. And yet it is counted carefully — forty-two generations, and [p. 361] some that, according to the best ecclesiastical reckonings, ought to have a place there are deliberately omitted. They are not there, and the reason is not far to seek, that Jezebel has had to do with them. The Spirit of God will have nothing to do with that progeny. That is, what has the greatest pretensions at the present time the Spirit of God carefully refuses in that line; I mean, as to things coming down to us. There are forty-two generations; everything is counted, and it might appear arbitrary, but it is not. If God has left out certain kings that ought to be there, it is because of their link with Jezebel. You may say that Rahab should not be there, but she is there; God has put her there. God does not think of men’s work, but of His own work.
EuR So the psalm in connection with Zion suggests God’s work: “This man was born there”,
JT When He their birthplace.
Ques What do the gift of God?
JT Well, it is: “Of whom are all things”. You cannot get it elsewhere save from God.
Rem I was wondering whether it was a question of sovereignty.
JT Quite so; it is the gift of God.
Ques Is there an important principle in that these people were prepared to go on in whatever circumstances they were until they died? Have we not seen recently that a good many have gone well for a time, but they have stood still and have not been prepared to go on until they died?
JT “All these died in faith”.
Rem And the next chapter opens with the race that is set before us, the idea of going on to the end.
JT “For this God is our God for ever and ever; he will be our guide until death”, Psalm 48: 14. Faith writes up His people He knows you understand as to faith being [p. 362] lays hold of God, which is very comforting. But then, on the other hand, Noah is included in these, and there is not a word about him after Genesis 9 and yet he lived for hundreds of years after that. We might think, Poor Noah! but the Spirit of God says that he died in faith, and we must believe the Spirit of God. Of some of our brethren whom we believe are lost we must think that they have died in faith; however far astray they may have gone, we do not give any of them up.
Ques You would allow for the discipline of God that is seen in the next chapter in that connection?
JT God sees to their dying in faith. In Genesis 22 when Isaac is received from the dead in figure, and Rebecca is introduced, there is a beautiful link with the book of Job leading us into the wide range of the work of God unknown to us. The book of Job is to teach us that God works on a wide scale. Job is only a sample, and who knows how many there were in whom God worked throughout the ages, but they will all be gathered up.
JRS I suppose you get your thoughts adjusted as you draw near to God.
JT You feel that “God, the judge of all” does right. We come to “God, the judge of all” and we see results that we had not anticipated. What a testimony there is in the book of Job! It speaks of workings that the scriptures take no notice of at all. There are hardly any references to the book of Job in Scripture. Then you find men like the magi from the East who were able to take account of the star of the King of the Jews. How did they know? Well, that is all life. It is a question of God, and if we draw near to God many things will be adjusted in our minds. The nearer we get to God the more things will become adjusted.
JJ There is a reference to Job in Ezekiel [p. 363] 14.
JT Of course the book was known, but the thing it deals with is not mentioned, that is, the collateral work of God in relation to the testimony of creation and in relation to the Lord’s testimony among the Jews, that He is the God of the gentiles. He is the God of the race, and He has not left Himself without witness, and He is working in relation to the witness He has given.
JJ Why is the history of Abraham broken into two parts?
JT He is so important. It may be that yours and mine would only be one. He comes in after the generality mentioned in verses 13 to 16, and it is a question of the resurrection. “By faith Abraham, when tried, offered up Isaac, and he who had received to himself the promises offered up his only begotten son”. What a volume of things that opens up — “his only begotten son”!
PL Is this feature of life that you have referred to characterised by surrender right through the chapter, and does it prefigure in that way the life of God here in the One who surrendered Himself to death, the Lord Jesus?
JT Quite so; it was the going forward in spite of circumstances. That is what characterises faith, and so you get that prominently in Abraham: “By faith Abraham, when tried, offered up Isaac, and he who had received to himself the promises offered up his only begotten son, as to whom it had been said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called: counting that God was able to raise him even from among the dead, whence also he received him in a figure”. It is the way that faith goes forward against circumstances. You pause at this second touch in the history of Abraham; it is the point reached in his soul when he was able to give up him in whom all the promises centred. It is the giving up of Christ in the flesh; He has to die if the purposes of God are to be fulfilled.
[p. 364] Faith goes beyond the life of Jesus in the flesh; it is Christ in resurrection now.
Ques It says, “The elders have obtained testimony”. Did Abraham receive testimony in connection with the reception of the promises and the reception of Isaac from the dead?
JT I think the elders receiving testimony is that they were honoured in being noticed. Abraham was confirmed, of course, in the reception of Isaac: he was given according to promise, but they received testimony in the sense in which we have it here; they were honoured. It is noticeable that it is the “only begotten son”. He is the only begotten son as the one born after the Spirit. It was a remarkable birth. It was not a birth after the flesh, although he was begotten in the ordinary way, but it was a birth after the Spirit. So he becomes in the most exalted way a type of Christ as the only begotten. The only One literally begotten in the power of the Spirit was Jesus. But Isaac was born after that principle, and so he stands out as the only begotten; there was no other child like him.
EJMcB So, in the two thoughts of Abraham, is the idea that if God calls He tests what He calls, and you prove the value of it?
JT It is to bring out the genuineness of the call. How lovely Abraham was to God on that occasion when he went on and on with his son and then offered him up! So God called out his name, “Abraham, Abraham!” How delightful he was to heaven!
Ques Why does it say of Sarah that she received strength, and of Abraham that he found strength in faith?
JT I suppose the latter is a little more dignified. It shows that Abraham took the thing to him and became exercised about it intelligently. That is, he believed what God said, and he found strength in believing that the thing would take place.
[p. 365] MWB With regard to the expression as to the Lord being the “leader and completer of faith”, in what way does He stand out as the One who trod the path? How far would the principle of faith be applicable to Him?
JT In the most absolute way. Being the Leader of it gives Him His distinction and takes care of His Deity, but the perfection of manhood is there. It was the perfection of man to live by faith. All these men lived by faith in some little way, of course, but He was the Leader and Completer of it. I suppose it speaks of the Lord in an inscrutable way. “I was cast upon thee from the womb; thou art my God from my mother’s belly”, Psalm 22: 10. That was God speaking as a Man. Psalm 16 opens it up in a most touching way.
MWB The surrender of such an One must have been an intense matter to the heart of God because it applies to Him here. The “leader and completer of faith” is the path here.
JT It is. The great cloud of witnesses refers to these persons being witnesses in their respective histories of this great principle. They are not around us as spirits, which would be a false idea, but they are witnesses historically of the great principle of faith.
JJ I have always hesitated to connect faith with the Lord personally. I thought that being the Author and Finisher He set it all on, but as found in others. You could hardly speak of the Lord as a Man of faith?
JT Why not? You cannot take this scripture in any other sense, as I see. The Finisher of it is in Himself, as is also being the Author of it; He has set out the great principle in perfection. Abel was not the author; he did not begin anything. The thing was reflected backwards in whatever God did. I believe it is seen in what God did in the making of the coats of skins for Adam and Eve, although it [p. 366] would be incongruous to bring Adam in. So the faith was the light of the life of Jesus reflected backwards in how He regarded God here. You cannot speak to God nor approach God save as taught, and who can teach us save Jesus? The knowledge of God could not exist without Jesus — the Man here.
Ques Is there any connection with the last chapter? “Imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages to come”.
JT That is the link; the more we get to the idea of the incarnation, the more we shall understand the whole position. The existence of creation itself hinged on the incarnation. Without it all would be a blank and useless. It is all a question of Christ in manhood, and all the light radiates from Christ in manhood. Whatever there is has that in mind; we being with that Person.
MWB Is not this one of those scriptures which we can only follow as viewing the Lord in His position as Man?
JT Quite so. We cannot arrive at the truth save as we begin with Jesus. All the divine names, as far as I can make them out, are relative names, but the relativity depends upon the Lord Jesus here in manhood. How could anyone come to apprehend the Supreme Being as an Object for worship save as in the Spirit of Jesus, but there you get it perfectly. The Spirit of God so operates from the beginning, but in a retrospective way, and the minds of the saints will be revolutionised as they see that we must begin with Christ in manhood to get any light on the thought at all. Every right thought must radiate from Jesus.
SJBC I believe in John 1 there are twelve names and titles given to the Lord, and all are relative.
JT Every divine name in Scripture is relative.
SR [p. 367] Does Peter connect the power of conception with the “hidden man of the heart” in the word to the wives? So he brings in the holy women of old who adorned themselves thus, and then goes on to say, “Whose children ye have become”. Was it not that that characterised the mother of Moses?
JT I think that opens it up a good bit. The “hidden man of the heart” of Gideon’s mother must have been Christ in some sense, because she had great kingly thoughts; her children were like the children of a king. The hidden man of her heart must have been more than Joash the Abi-ezrite, and so the hidden man of the heart of the wife of Manoah must have been more than Manoah — he was a poor affair — for she brought forth Samson, and that is a principle that runs through. The hidden man of Sarah’s heart must have been Christ in some sense.
PL Does Hannah convey in her song who was the hidden man of her heart?
JT She does indeed! That is a very fine example.