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DESCENDING AND ASCENDING

JT I was thinking that the effect of the most exalted truth being rightly apprehended in our souls, is to enable us to go down.

Rem In lowliness and meekness.

JT Yes; and I think that this epistle shows us what descends, and the effect of it. The Lord descended, and the assembly will descend from heaven. But then there is also the idea of what is fallen. Satan fell; Adam fell; Noah fell; Israel fell; and the assembly has fallen. Therefore, the present world has taken character from what falls.

Rem What you say as to what descends supposes also what ascends.

JT Yes. First of all, it supposes the One who was great enough to descend. The Lord Jesus has brought in the blessedness of descending. “He that ascended is the same also which descended first into the lower parts of the earth”. The epistle to the Ephesians shows us how the Lord has ascended that He might fill all things, and it shows us the assembly’s place with Him. The book of Revelation shows that the assembly also descends in her time; and now the same principle is to be seen in us in a moral way we are to go down.

Ques Do you connect that with the thought in Philippians, the mind that was in Christ Jesus?

JT Yes: “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus”. It is the mind that was in Him that you have. It is a very interesting subject, because if it is traced out properly it enables us to see how this present world has been constituted, and what characterises it; and then it enables us to see what the future world is to be. The present world has taken its character from a fallen being; and a fallen being is an envious being, and “where envy ^[p. 104] and strife are there is confusion and every evil work”. Satan is envious.

Rem “Who hath ascended into heaven, or descended?” Proverbs 30: 4. You get that principle in the Old Testament, pointing on, I suppose, to this.

JT Yes, perhaps you can enlarge upon that for us.

Rem I was thinking how there must be the descent before the ascent. In Philippians 2 we get the descent of that perfect One.

JT And then the exaltation.

Rem You spoke of the assembly as descending by and by. She ascends first.

JT Yes. The prophet sees her coming down out of heaven having the glory of God; her light is most precious. That shows how she corresponds with Christ. The lesson as to how to descend is learnt from Christ. John 13 is the great lesson book as to how to descend; whereas, we have all round us the principle of self-exaltation from the very outset. What was suggested to Eve was that they should be exalted; that there was a way by which they should be higher than they were. That was the principle; and so all along the line; it is a climbing principle, and climbing is very dangerous work, it is sure to come to a fall.

Rem I suppose it is the man who goes down that the Lord will exalt.

JT It is a great thing to get hold of the power by which we may descend; it is a most ignominious thing to be cast down. We have the two thoughts in the Revelation; in chapter 9 there is a star fallen from heaven, and in chapter 12 Satan is cast out, and his angels were cast out with him. This is a most ignominious thing.

WHM It is altogether foreign to the natural man to go down; he must get power from Another.

JT That which descends is illuminating; ^[p. 105] that which falls is darkening. That can be easily shown. The Lord in descending from heaven brought in all the light of God. He descended first into the lower parts of the earth. That was light. Light is really love in activity, and the first part is to go down. So that the Person who descends is light. But then a person who falls shows his moral inability for the position which he occupied. To be cast out is direct judgment. Satan falls; a star falls. A star is a most valuable thing. I mean if you are out in the night. No doubt Revelation 9 contemplates one who had the place of a guide. A star falls from heaven and it opens the pit; and what issues from the pit is darkness; what comes out of the pit is locusts. The minds of men are darkened, and they are tormented. The Lord descended and ascended, and what is the result? Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers.

Rem It is a beautiful contrast.

JT The office of an apostle is most important. It is light; it brings in and establishes in this world the authority of the Lord.

Ques What would the locusts and the scorpions signify?

JT They refer to agents of evil; they are directly from the bottomless pit. Their description is remarkable; they are under the direct control of the destroyer Apollyon. Now, the apostles were under the direct control of the Lord.

Rem The one is the fallen one, and the other is the descending One.

JT One is love, and the other is hate. It is a great thing to see that it is our privilege to descend; and this epistle gives us the power for it, and the power is the Spirit in us. This world is not the sphere of our glory; we do not want to ascend here.

Rem Instead of the things spoken of in this epistle puffing us up, they have the opposite ^[p. 106] effect.

JT Yes, exactly; they give you a sort of leverage in your soul; you are great enough to go down. It is one thing to climb up, but it is another thing to grow up: here it is growing up unto Him. If you climb up, as sure as possible you will fall. Zacchaeus was a man of little stature, and he had to climb, that is, the kind of people who climb. The Lord will not spurn you if you have a right motive; still, the Lord says to Zacchaeus, “Come down”, and then, “Today I must abide at thy house”.

Ques Do you mean one who climbs is of small stature spiritually?

JT Yes, figuratively speaking. The Lord does not rebuke Zacchaeus. He gives him encouragement to come down; very great encouragement, for his motive was excellent, he did not climb to be seen; he climbed to see the Lord.

Rem I suppose we have a good example of descent in the apostle Paul; the effect that the light had on him?

JT I think if this epistle is studied, and is seen in the light of the power that is presented in it, it will enable us to go down; and in going down you are morally entitled to exaltation according to God.

Rem God resisteth the proud and giveth grace to the lowly. It is the lowly one who gets the grace.

JT The Lord’s grace fills us; even if we do go out of the way He would encourage us to go down, and would help us down.

Rem It is our tendency naturally to want to go up.

JT It is indeed; you see it all the way through from Satan onwards; he is the first being who fell, and from Satan onwards there is a constant effort to get up: “thou Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be brought down to hell”.

Rem We sometimes make an effort to go down.

JT There is a certain grace in going down.

“I saw the bride, the Lamb’s wife, descending from heaven”. There is dignity and glory in it. There is a certain dignity and moral glory to be seen in a man deliberately laying aside what dignifies him in this world for the sake of others.

Rem I suppose the secret of it is having the mind of Christ?

JT I am sure it is. For instance, the Lord Himself at the supper laid aside His garments: garments are dignity, that which marks off a man; the Lord laid aside His garments and took a servant’s form, and then He commenced a servant’s work. That was the lesson book; He did that for an object lesson.

Ques Is this growth needed in view of giving moral fitness?

JT Yes, I think so. The effect of the Lord’s going up on high, after having descended, is seen in contrast to the star that fell. The effect of the star’s fall was darkness and destruction here. The Lord gives that which enlightens, and builds up; so He gives these gifts. There are four kinds of gifts you will notice, pointing to the universal effect of the position of Christ on high, and the end in view is the building up of the saints; until we all arrive at the perfect Man. Now, the perfect Man’s stature is seen in the ability to descend. I am persuaded that if we do not know how to descend now, we shall not be fit for the city, because the city descends.

Rem In the epistle to the Corinthians we find one was boasting himself against another.

JT You will always find strife where there is rivalry. “There was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest”. It is not simply that they had a discussion, they strove.

Rem I suppose the gifts here take character from the One who descended.

^[p. 108] JT Yes, no doubt. Contrast the opening up of the pit, the fearful influence that came up out of it, with that which came out of heaven, enlightenment, and refreshment, and so on. Now, if you will examine these gifts what you will see is that they are in the order of wisdom. The Lord gave first apostles, so that men might be brought under the authority of the Lord. That is a very important element of the truth.

Rem None could gainsay their power.

JT Quite so. They had evidences with them that they were the apostles of the Lord; and those who were converted through them, continued in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship.

Ques What was unfolded in His having led captivity captive? That was a necessity, would you say?

JT Yes; all the power of evil is set aside. He has not only overthrown it; He has led captivity captive. The whole power that held men in bondage has been carried away in triumph. The apostles wrought in this same power. All the strongholds of the enemy were brought down.

It is very important to see that gift in the Spirit is superior to all satanic power. It is given by One who has led captivity captive. It is as if a general has conquered a country, and then he empowers others to hold it for him. In our case it is only in testimony. It is a great thing to see that you are holding the territory in testimony, and there is power for it. Of course, you may have to die for your testimony, but still the testimony is there. I believe that if the apostles’ ministry is rightly apprehended it will be seen that they overthrew the world in all its phases; and then besides that the prophets bring God in in testimony.

WM That is the thought in prophets?

JT Yes, I think so. The apostle establishes ^[p. 109] the authority of the Lord in the territory of the conqueror; the prophet brings God in to the souls of men.

WHM Well, then, the prophet’s gift would really bring the word of God home in power.

Rem It is very beautiful; I never noticed it before in this way — the apostles being brought in first, and then the prophets.

JT Then the evangelist is to bring all that light into the whole earth. The evangelist is not limited to Israel. Philip’s ministry sets forth evangelisation. Then you have pastors and teachers: they go together, the final gifts; they take care of the saints; they shepherd and feed them.

WHM There are very precious expressions, “the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace;” and then, “the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God”. The descending you were speaking of leads to that?

JT It leads to unity. I had thought of the way the Lord provides for the continuation of the feasts of love. Jude speaks about love feasts. Now, the Lord not only introduced the idea of love in His own person and ministry, but He formed a circle here in which the love feasts were to be found. The Lord’s supper, that we so often refer to, was to be continued. In it the Lord provided a means for its perpetuation during His absence. Whilst He was here there were love feasts. He met with the disciples in that way; and there was interchange of affection. Now, John 13 contemplates that He was not to continue with them, and what was to become of the feasts? I believe the Lord set before them the means by which the feast should be perpetuated; there was to be active love among themselves. You cannot have a love feast without love. If you do not bring it you cannot have a feast. The Lord always ^[p. 110] had it.

OJM That is the effectual working in the measure of every part.

JT And the means is by going down in service, serving one another.

Rem The Lord said, “If I ... have washed your feet, ye ought also to wash one another’s feet”.

Rem Holding the truth in love.

JT Love is the leading thought in the passage, because you cannot have building up without it. Love builds up; knowledge puffs up.

Rem It is very important that each one of us should bring our portion of love to the feast.

JT It is really not fair to come to a feast which is supposed to be mutual, without bringing your portion. You may ask a brother to your house, and set a material feast before him, but that is not the idea of a love feast, a love feast is mutual. So Jude says, “These are spots in your love feasts”. He contemplated the feasts, but there were spots in them. Now, in John 13 there was a feast, but there was a spot; Judas was a spot. If love is really in activity amongst brethren the spots will be driven out.

Rem We would not forsake the assembling of ourselves if we realised what these love feasts are.

JT Yes; and how searching it is; what am I going to bring? what have I got to contribute?

Rem I suppose if we do not bring love we do not bring anything. I am thinking of 1 Corinthians 13. It is the only thing that never fails.

JT It is one thing for a brother to be an affectionate brother, but there is also love in a collective way; something that is known amongst the saints.

Rem It is a scene of holy liberty.

JT And then young Christians are to be brought into that; their roots are to, be set in right soil, they are to be “rooted and grounded in love”. Sometimes the elders stunt the younger ones. It is ^[p. 111] most important that there should be for the young saints the activity of love in the circle; and therefore there is the soil in which they take root, and grow up.

Ques Does what we have in verse 14 infer the way the enemy would seek to hinder all this?

JT Stunted people, those who do not grow, are exposed to the enemy. “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive”.

Ques Would you say a little as to verse 13? “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”. That expression, “unity of the faith” is the query.

JT Well, I think the unity of the faith is the unity contemplated as the result of the testimony; it tends to unity.

Ques And the “knowledge of the Son of God”?

JT The faith that overcomes the world is that we believe that Jesus is the Son of God. It refers to Him as having the power to establish another system. A perfect man is a man who answers in every way to God. We arrive at a perfect man. It was a great thought with God that there should be a perfect man. When one transfers the thought to Christ in the wilderness, there was the perfect Man. Satan attacked Him in every point, and He perfectly answered to God.

Rem And that is the great result to be brought about in each one of us.

JT It shows that God does not give up His thoughts. Satan overcame Adam, but now God brings in a perfect Man, and Satan does not overthrow Him.

^[p. 112] Rem The measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

WHM “The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me”. What a triumph!

JT And he that is born of God, keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. That shows that it comes out in us.

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