THE HEAVENLY COMPANY
THE HEAVENLY COMPANY
JT A principle in Scripture is that God accredits to all of any given company what He may find in one.
EJMcB Do you take Mary to be the characteristic person?
JT Yes; that is what I thought.
AFM And that He credits the company with the characteristics of this person.
JT So far as she has gone she is equal to the light, and so the Lord is enabled in that way to speak of the brethren.
ANW Do you mean they are indebted to her?
JT Well, her spiritual measure is accredited to all.
EJMcB Do I understand you that the expression, “Go tell my brethren” is that the Lord accredits them with what He saw in Mary, and that brethren characteristically are seen in Mary; she being a sample?
JT Yes; just as I was endeavouring to show in regard to Judah in Genesis 44. What came out in him affected Joseph, who could not refrain himself; brethren were there characteristically, and he made himself known to them.
EJMcB Was the thought that Mary set forth the spiritual instincts that are in accord with Christ in this world?
JT I thought you have in the expression, “they have taken away my Lord”, what the first epistle of Corinthians develops.
EJMcB I thought it was exceedingly important to see the principle upon which Joseph was free to disclose himself. There could be no disclosure of spiritual relationships to a condition that is merely [p. 271] natural; and I take it that the beautiful operations of the Spirit of God in this woman are worthy of the greatest consideration.
JT If we are not in fellowship it is quite out of the question to introduce the idea of brethren. In that expression by Mary you have, I think, the principle unfolded in 1 Corinthians; “they have taken away my Lord;” she referred to those who had acted against Christ.
EJMcB Do you not think Mary’s position speaks much? The others went away, but she remained where the body of Jesus had lain; the impress of the death of this Person characterised the whole scene.
FL There is significance in the way the Lord puts the message. He does not say to Mary, ‘Go tell My brethren I ascend to My Father and their Father’, but it is “to my Father and your Father”. She was necessarily included in the message the Lord sent.
EJMcB She was a characteristic person.
FL She would have been a messenger merely if the Lord had put it the other way; but she is one of the company.
JT The question of fellowship is most important. The spiritual company is designated here “my brethren”, but fellowship really precedes it. There was the tomb where the body had lain; Mary was there, so that in this way she was in the fellowship of His death. Then, the One who had died was her Lord.
FL Is there the thought of the fellowship of His death in the door being shut for fear of the Jews?
JT There was the opposition that had been expressed towards Christ still there in the Jews; and it is still in the world.
EJMcB Do you not think there is an important spiritual principle in the door being shut? We get [p. 272] a figure of it in Joseph; there could be no disclosure without enclosure.
JT He put the Egyptians all out. The Lord’s disclosure of Himself to His brethren is too private to have the Egyptians or the Jews either.
EJMcB Exactly; and when you touch upon a thing so sensitive in character it is important that we should urge the question of fellowship.
PJ Did Mary get the light the Lord gave, as a result of devotedness?
JT Yes, she did. It is really devotedness that leads us into fellowship. “Where the body of Jesus had lain”; that is public. The Lord went out of the world publicly; He did not go into heaven publicly. Now, fellowship is in connection with the first; it is in connection with the Lord going out of the world; privilege is in connection with the Lord going to heaven, which is private.
R.S.S., So that fellowship is in view of something adverse or in contrast.
JT Quite so. Fellowship was set up where the Lord went out of the world; that is to say, it was set up at Jerusalem. The apostles’ fellowship was there. Mary’s position sets forth the idea of fellowship; she was “where the body of Jesus had lain”; that was public, and there she says, “they have taken away my Lord”. Who are the “they”? She is not of them; they are different from her.
EJMcB She distinguishes in her mind between the company that appreciated Christ and the company that refused Him.
JT Exactly; she did not refer to Peter, John or James, but to those who had put the Lord to death.
EJMcB I think it is a very important point that we should clearly distinguish the question raised as to the company being in responsibility. If you are going to enjoy spiritual privileges you cannot pass [p. 273] over responsibility that is legitimately yours; and hence in the pattern you find Mary at the spot where every question of responsibility is solved — “Where the body of Jesus had lain”.
Rem When Mary runs to the disciples, she says, “They have taken away the Lord”; she connects herself with the other disciples; but to the angels she said, “they have taken away my Lord”.
Ques How do you get the thought of fellowship at the tomb?
EJMcB I think it is not very difficult to see. In 1 Corinthians 10 you have the question of fellowship, and it is fellowship of the death of Christ.
JT Yes. On the mount of transfiguration Moses and Elias spoke of His departure, which He should accomplish at Jerusalem; that is where fellowship is set up; so it is said, Christ “suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him ... bearing his reproach”. That is public, and that is where responsibility lies.
WLP Every question of responsibility was solved where Mary was, so that at the cross they appreciate His death.
EJMcB It was at the cross. If you trace the pathway of the Lord Jesus Christ in Luke’s gospel to the mount of transfiguration, you will find the pathway of a man who faced every legitimate obligation that could rest upon man as under the eye of God, and that Man finishes the pathway at the summit of the mount. When He gets there He speaks of His decease, not that He would have to do, but that He was going to do; death had no claim, but He was going to accomplish a decease, or departure, and at the doorway of His death the question of responsibility is solved.
AFM Will you distinguish where responsibility closes and privilege begins, in relation to our chapter?
JT It is in Mary’s expression, “they have taken away my Lord”. She clearly intimates that there are those who are different from her, different from those that loved the Lord; and the question is with which company are you identified — “they” or “Mary”.
EJMcB Our brother’s remark is helpful, because when Mary comes to the company she knew and appreciated Christ; she speaks about “the Lord”. She recognised they had a common portion in this blessed Person.
AFM Was there not a point where Mary passes over from the wilderness to the land, as representing the whole company?
FL Was not that inside the closed doors?
JT I think that is correct. Going into Canaan is a private matter; there are no spectators at Jordan; the world is not there; it is at the Red Sea that you see them. “Israel went out with a high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians”. I think that what has been alluded to is perhaps of more importance than we may have noticed; it is the point emphasised in the opening of the epistle to Corinthians, in the words, “the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours”.
EJMcB The basis upon which the apostle can write is that they recognise the Lord. Is not this the simplest way of understanding fellowship? Outside it is “my Lord”, inside it is “the Lord”.
JT Yes; because He is no more mine than yours.
Ques What is the bearing of “Christ Jesus, my Lord”, in Philippians in regard to what you were saying?
JT I think in Philippians it is a question of what the Lord was to the apostle. Philippians is really the experience of the spiritual man, so that you have his estimate of Christ. To him Christ was all. The chapter sets before us different measures [p. 275] of spirituality, and clearly in Mary you have excess as compared with Peter and John.
AFM Also in contrast with Thomas.
JT They were truly believers, but they went to their own homes.
ANW What is the practical advantage to the company of being accredited with the measure of Mary, or some one really higher than the company?
JT The practical advantage here was that they are all regarded by the Lord in the light of brethren; Mary represents the state suited to those in this relationship. The communications to Mary are according to her level or measure.
TR The message that the Lord sent by Mary had a gathering effect.
EJMcB When the wonderful fact laid hold of them that they were brethren they instinctively drew together.
JS As together He could disclose Himself to them.
JT The message brought about conditions suitable for the visit described.
TR One person qualified to carry the message has a wonderful gathering effect upon the saints; that is, it puts the saints in a position where the Lord can meet them, and they can be brought on to the ground of privilege.
JT If one person is equal to the light, the light is not limited to that person, it is for all.
EJMcB I think if we might be allowed to refer for a moment to the figure you used last night, it would greatly help. There could be no doubt that the very first time his brethren came to Joseph he had in view the thought of disclosure, but the continuous visits went on until one of them reached the point that made it possible for the whole.
JT That is the idea; so that if one person is equal to the light you get the light, but it is for all. It is to bring about exercise. Judah had reached the state becoming brethren, but all Joseph’s brethren came in for the disclosure made.
EJMcB In Mary you get a picture of spiritual affections, and then under the Lord’s tuition she becomes spiritually intelligent.
JT What we are speaking of is very encouraging in the smallness and weakness of things at the present time; if you get one person right spiritually the Lord will clothe all the company with His own thoughts.
RSS Do you not think often that the person is the one who, like Judah, takes the very lowest place? He was willing to become a bondman and give his life.
JT There were distinct marks of a brother in Judah.
RSS We do not hear much about the individual history of the sons of Jacob, except Joseph, but we have the way in which God wrought in Judah’s soul; he took the self-sacrificing place, and he is honoured; the Lord came from Judah, and the glory is connected with that.
JT He acquired evidently the first place in Israel. It had been transferred from Reuben to Joseph, but finally it came to Judah. Judah represents the counsels of God, and the character of the brother is seen there.
An illustration of what we have been saying is seen in Revelation 12. The “woman” was clothed with the sun, the moon was under her feet, and she has a crown of twelve stars; she is about to bring forth a Man-child. It is what you have historically in the first chapter of Matthew. God clothes the circumstances with all His thoughts in regard to Israel. We find all the divine thoughts in regard to Israel in the circumstances of the birth of Christ.
EJMcB The thought in a way appears at the Lord’s birth in Luke: “Glory to God in the highest, on earth peace, good pleasure in men”.
FL “[p. 277] If a man love me he will keep my words, and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him and make our abode with him”. The individual who loves Christ and keeps His commandments is in the full height of privilege primarily enjoyed by the assembly.
Ques How do you understand the first part of verse 17?
EJMcB Mary had most extraordinary affection, but she was astray as to the peculiar character of Christ’s position at that moment. To touch the Lord requires the greatest spiritual intelligence. She had to come into the full light of the ascended and glorified Man.
FL We are helped in this by seeing the contrast with Matthew 28; there they hold Him by the feet, and He says, “Go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee and there shall they see me”; the ground was totally different, it is Galilee, but here it is ascension. The contrast, I think, greatly helps.
EJMcB When you come to the question of spiritual intelligence, it involves two things: it involves what you might touch and it involves the light in which you are set. There can be little doubt that there is great deal of lack of spiritual intelligence as to touching things that are not the present thought of God; they may be good enough in their place.
Ques Why is Thomas invited to touch the Lord You can touch Him inside; there are no restrictions there. The emphasis is on ascension here.
ANW “Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing”, verse 27.
FL In Luke 24 they were inside. He says, “Handle me and see”; it was [p. 278] to the whole company.
PHP According to the principles pointed out this afternoon we cannot be of any better service to each other than to be spiritual.
JT Spiritual stature is sure to be owned of God; God has respect for it, and He signalises it.
WLP Did the Lord wish to give the thought to Mary, that she could have nothing to do with Him in the old condition of things?
EJMcB I do not think for a moment the Lord would ever repel the slightest movement towards Himself on the part of any of His own, but what the Lord has in view is the spiritual intelligence of this woman, He is assured of her affections, so He gently and firmly puts her aside in order that she may understand the blessedness of the new position He was taking.
FL That was a characteristic way with the Lord. On another occasion, under different circumstances, He says to His mother, “Woman, what have I to do with thee?” She was not discouraged; she gives instructions to the servants.
RSS You were speaking in regard to things we should not touch and things we should touch.
EJMcB What I feel is this, what saps away the spiritual vigour and life of the saints is that they are dealing with things about the blessed Lord that are not connected with the present movement of the Spirit. They may be perfectly true, but they are not the Spirit’s mind for the moment.
A large number of saints are occupied with what will happen when Christ comes back to the earth; then the desert will blossom as a rose, beautiful in its way, but not the present mind of the Spirit; He is occupied with the place that blessed Man has as ascended.
JT The Lord considers for us; if we are not [p. 279] to touch things it is that we might have something better. He was going to lead Mary into heavenly relationships.
PJ The great thing is to be in the mind of the Spirit.
EJMcB I think one of the most successful moves on the part of the enemy to defeat the saints is to bring forward something that is true but not the truth for the moment.
JT The relations were to be formed with Christ as ascended, a new heavenly ground.
FL When the Lord comes it is as ascended to the Father; therefore, morally, when He came amongst them He came as the ascended Man to the company; which is, brought into the value of an ascended position.
JT So that all communications from His side henceforth, and all communications from our side, are in the light of that.
EJMcB The whole position is viewed in the light of the ascended Man; and Mary’s message gathers the brethren in the light of being brethren of the Man ascended.
JT His coming in is on the principle of having ascended.
AFM Hence what He brings in is heavenly.
Ques Is that the spiritual intelligence that is to mark the company today?
JT It involves true assembly privilege.
EJMcB May we not say, to make it practical, that our exercise as to spirituality should be that there might be in a place one or more to whom the Lord may accredit this for the gain of all.
FL The point we are on is an exceedingly important one; it is a question of ascension, “risen together with him”,; taking account of ourselves as a company in association with the ascended Man; it is totally new ground, never known before.
RSS [p. 280] The brethren in Matthew 28 are told by a message from the Lord to go before Him into Galilee; there it is the same individuals, but not brethren in the same light.
FL They are looked at as the remnant of Israel; it indicates what the Lord will be after the rapture in a day to come; but those in John 20 are wholly connected with the new light of a heavenly Man in a heavenly position.
JT In Matthew it is administration on the earth. He would meet them in Galilee, and He did meet them there, to send them out to make disciples of all nations, to baptise to the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Here in John 20 what is in view is privilege, the distinct privilege attaching to the assembly, so that instead of going to Galilee, He goes to the Father; hence, if He meets them again, as He did, it is as having come from heaven; and what follows qualifies them for the great position.
He breathed into them, so that they should become spiritually according to what He was.
FL That is the point in Ephesians 2, “raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places”. It is association in heaven.
JT It is one thing to be in fellowship as Mary was, and to have light as to the position contained in the message; but then it is another thing to have the Spirit of the Man that goes up; He breathed into them of His Spirit. If they are to go up, they are to have the Spirit suited to heaven.
Ques Would you say you get the Spirit of that Man exemplified in Stephen?
JT Unquestionably. Think of what is secured for heaven!
EJMcB It is a very beautiful word: “as my Father hath sent me”. After the breathing into them they would be perfectly at home in the scene of His [p. 281] Father.
JT You have in Scripture mention made of “the spirits of just men made perfect”, but the Spirit of the heavenly Man goes beyond that. You have “just men” in the millennium, but think what is required for heaven. If these people had gone up they would have had a spirit suited to heaven. Of course all is pattern here.
LTF What are “the spirits of just men made perfect”?
JT The spirit of a man is the greatest part of him; what you appreciate is a man’s spirit.
LTF How are just men made perfect?
JT Under the Old Testament conditions men’s spirits were not perfected; it required redemption. If one is not hampered in any way, you have a complete man morally. But when you come to the spirits of heavenly men you have something greater. They are like Christ viewed as heavenly. We shall hold holy converse with each other in heaven.
FL I wanted to emphasise that, “I go to prepare a place for you”. When He breathed upon them the place was prepared, and they were competent for it.
JT He had in principle gone in; not literally, but the message involved that.
EJMcB Do you not think the earthly contrast helps you? When God made man at the outset He made him in His image and likeness, and then He breathed into him. You have now a spiritual being formed, and thus the Spirit is breathed into him with the life of a heavenly Man; he is capable of treading in heavenly places.
PHP Is the breathing into the disciples the same thing as the gift of the Spirit now?
JT It is involved in the gift of the Spirit; but I think we have to take account of the intimacy of the transaction, and the fact that it was His breath, not merely the Spirit of God.
FL “The last Adam”.
JT Yes.
BTF Do you look upon this company as a pattern company, brought about when the Spirit actually descended?
JT All this came to pass actually on the day of Pentecost. Luke presents an external view; John gives you the inside. In Luke it is upon; in John within.
Rem In Genesis we are told that Eve was taken out of Adam’s side. Here the Lord speaks of His side.
EJMcB I think there is no doubt but that this company are morally the product of the love of Christ.
JT What strikes you here is the spiritual character of everything; the doors were shut; it is said incidentally, “for fear of the Jews”, but I think doors were shut so that it might be seen that what occurred was spiritual. The closed doors could not prevent the Lord’s entrance.
ARP To whom did Mary take the message literally?
JT The Lord had clearly intimated previously whom He regarded as His brethren.
EJMcB I think the most important point we have had this afternoon is the relation of Mary to spiritual disclosures.
JT If the Lord were to give a message for the brethren I would look for the people who did the will of God. Those are the ones that the Lord regards as brethren in the other gospels. Mary would have had sufficient knowledge of who they were. There are many who take the name now who have no title to it, because the only title you can have is what the Lord indicates in Matthew 12; they are those who do the will of the Father. In Luke 8 brethren are those that hear the word of [p. 283] God and do it; and in this chapter they are those who believe in the resurrection. You look for this kind of people. One often observes that a certain virtue is attached to the name of brethren; there are so many companies now and they all say they are brethren, but are they? If you apply the Lord’s tests what would you find?
FL It depends on the condition of soul.
JT First of all, doing the will of the Father.
If I take it into my mind to start a school of doctrine and draw people after me, that is not the will of the Father, but is the very opposite.
RSS In Luke 24 we have very much the same circumstances mentioned; at least there are certain features that are like the ones we have been reading of in John 20. Would you say the bearing of the Lord’s appearance in the midst of the disciples in Luke is in contrast with what we have been contemplating?
JT I think that Luke is the relief side.
EJMcB In Luke He asked for meat; it is consideration for man and the need of man in relation to the pleasure of God, but in John it is wholly spiritual.
JT In Luke you get terror; the disciples are frightened by His presence, and they need to be relieved; they are not in a right state, so there is need of adjustment. They were to be assured that it was Himself, a real man. But that is not the thought in John. John is dealing with the truth from a purely spiritual standpoint.
RSS I suppose the character of the two gospels would also help; Luke presents the grace of God; therefore the meeting of man’s need comes into prominence; John presents the love of God; therefore the point is satisfaction for the heart of God and Christ in His brethren.
JT Where you get the love of God touched [p. 284] upon you may always look for some great answer. John 3: 16; “God so loved the world”; the answer is life. You may look for the greatest answer when you come to the climax.
TR Love works in view of finding its own satisfaction.
JT “God is a Spirit”, and hence the company brought in as a result of Christ’s ministry in John is spiritual.
FL I think perhaps we can see that Matthew is administrative in view of the earth; Luke is taking account of the Lord as a Man amongst men for man’s relief and blessing; and therefore the Lord expressly says, “a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have”. He takes the human side, and meets the need of man in the grace of God. John’s gospel is wholly the spiritual and heavenly side.
JS Would you give us an outline of how the individual reaches the spiritual company as presented in John?
JT In chapter 3 there is a spiritual foundation laid in the believer, as born again; then there is the death of Christ which would meet the conscience, the uplifting of the Son of man. In chapter 4 you have the Spirit given formally as a power, as living water in the believer, in order that he might be delivered from what is here. Chapter 5 is that he is introduced into something; he is passed out of death into life. In chapter 6 he is supported by spiritual food; that is to say, Christ come down from heaven, he is supported by that food here. All this is on the deliverance side. I refer to these chapters only as showing how our need is met individually. Passing over the other chapters, you come to the twentieth there the believer is in the faith of the resurrection, and so he is prepared, according to the affections seen in Mary, for the full mind of God. God being a Spirit; He is to have a spiritual and heavenly [p. 285] company. The light communicated to the believer in Mary’s message gives him his position; then the breath of Christ involves the subjective state suitable for that position; he is a spiritual and heavenly man, and now is prepared for his house from heaven, our house is a building of God, which is spiritual. He will then be in every way suited to God — spiritual, not only inwardly, but outwardly. What God has in man is thus altogether spiritual.
Ques What is the spiritual thought in connection with “my brethren” in John 20?
EJMcB I think it is not difficult to see that the Lord Jesus Christ as coming on the line of Israel had brethren on that line; but the idea of a heavenly Man having brethren was a totally new idea, and it was the most wonderful light as to privilege that ever came out from the heart of God.