HEAVEN IN RELATION TO THE TESTIMONY HERE
[p. 240] HEAVEN IN RELATION TO THE TESTIMONY HERE
Acts 2: 32 - 39; Acts 3: 19 - 26
EJMcB I thought the early part of the Acts gives you the instincts and feelings of men that had the Spirit, but who were hampered by their environments from coming out spiritually; and I thought a little consideration in regard to these scriptures would be of great help as to our coming out spiritually now.
I think it would be admitted that the Acts is a continuation of the gospel of Luke. In Luke’s gospel you have what was under the eye of God in the Man Christ Jesus. The eye of God could rest upon that Man, and everything in and about Him was spiritual. You cannot understand any of His movements, except you view them from a spiritual standpoint. I give you an incident out of John. In chapter 11, there is a family, and His love for it is manifest; there is one sick, and He stays away. It is inexplicable. One speaks reverently of the blessed Lord, but He was a spiritual Man, and if you look at it from that standpoint it is explained. In the early part of the Acts you have that Man in glory, and a generation here that is really formed after that blessed Person.
JT It was needed that they should learn that things were henceforth to be centred in heaven. Of course, the heavenly side is not seen fully until we come to chapter 11, but still it is intimated here in chapter 2 that the sound came from heaven.
EJMcB We can understand a butterfly emerging from the chrysalis; the capacity is produced for enjoyment of the thing into which it emerges. The exercises occasioned by the difficulties of their position enabled the disciples to come out into the light of the position established in Paul’s [p. 241] ministry.
JT They were gradually set free from earthly environments. The time for it did not fully arrive until the testimony of the Spirit in connection with the old covenant and promises to the fathers had been rejected; but, nevertheless, the second chapter is an intimation of the place heaven was to have and that they were to expect things from there.
EJMcB To be practical, if God were to place many of us in conditions which were absolutely and entirely spiritual, we should be unequal to them. The very difficulties connected with our path and circumstances here are conducive to our becoming spiritual men. The Spirit of God is exercising us so that we might be down here spiritually.
JT John 3 is really connected with this chapter in this sense. “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven even the Son of man which is in heaven”. The end of the gospel of Luke tells us that He was carried into heaven. Now, the disciples would thenceforth expect things from heaven; and this chapter is the answer to that; still heaven, as yet, is not opened through. In the next chapter the Lord is said to be received there; “whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things”. He is to be received and remain there, but the heavens are not opened through.
EJMcB What you are referring to as to heaven being opened is connected with the spiritual side of things.
JT Yes. The full bearing of the spiritual is heaven opened through, and a Man seen there. In the first chapter there is a cloud; the cloud received Him. The cloud period as yet remained; but with all that, they knew His whereabouts. It was not as of old, when Israel did not know what became of Moses. In Acts 2 their expectations were realised in the gift of the Spirit, and Peter’s explanation shows it was on account of what had taken place in heaven.
[p. 242] God had made His Son both Lord and Christ; but then, the sound came from heaven, meaning that heaven is asserting its right to be heard. Man had his place here, and he has his day, but heaven asserts its right to be heard. That is a great point.
EJMcB To link the two passages read, I thought you have external conditions that govern the outside sphere until the Lord returned. In one passage He has been rejected by man, but by God He has been made both Lord and Christ. You will get no outward change until He comes back, but the whole realm of the Spirit’s activity is between these two points. It is not unfolded here, but the spiritual line is between those two points.
FL Would you say it became a principle that pressure must rest upon us always if we are to be partakers of His holiness?
EJMcB We touched upon it yesterday when we had the question of sorrow. “In sorrow thou shalt bring forth”. Chapter 3 marks the position; you find men in prayer, they are in touch with the system of things where the spiritual is, but they pray. The enemy would like us to take up a position here. To have a creditable position in the world will defeat spirituality. I believe that is the great end in Babylon.
RSS I was just thinking in connection with what you were saying, that the present order of things, Christianity, is introduced with sorrow. I refer to John 16 where the Lord says, “A little while ... and again a little while”. Referring to the little while He should be in the grave, and then a little while when they should see Him; when He was in the grave they were weighed down with sorrow, but when the Lord rose their sorrow was turned to joy, and no one ever took it from them. The Lord likens that to the sorrow of [p. 243] childbirth.
JT There is an interesting passage in that connection in the end of Isaiah. “Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child”. There was no travail in connection with the birth of Christ; He was not the occasion of sorrow; it was before Zion travailed that the Man child appears. That is to say, travail is connected with us; this, no doubt, is on account of what we are.
EJMcB It draws a line between Christ and every other man. There is no travail in connection with Him, but when it comes to us the apostle says, “I travail in birth until Christ be formed in you”. How wonderful is the exercise in that way! In other words, the sorrow has in view the formation of man after Christ; no doubt the Acts help us on that line.
JT The disciples were to be loosed from their earthly moorings, and were to expect things from heaven; and one of the most important principles indicated is that heaven is entitled to a voice, and that voice is supported in power. The Spirit appears in the character of cloven tongues as of fire; there is power to enforce authority.
EJMcB Connected with that you have the beautiful thought that, if heaven is entitled to speak, they are capable of hearing. In the spiritual man you have that, and consequent upon that he has heaven’s opinion on what is found there at any moment. It is most valuable.
FL You are utterly apart from it if you do not hear the voice of the Spirit.
BTF Would you draw for us the connection between today and yesterday: “If I have told you the earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you the heavenly things?” In our opening meeting we were dwelling upon earthly [p. 244] things.
JT We were remarking that the heavenly is introduced here: “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven”. You arrive at heavenly things by following the Son of man.
In John 4 the chapter read yesterday, the point is not that the water is given from heaven, it is that the water is living; but when you come to the Acts, what you get shows the emphasis to be laid upon “heaven”, so that the sound comes from there, the sound of a mighty, rushing wind. In certain respects it is all a question of the source of the wind that may be blowing. In chapter 12 a mighty wind from another source was blowing. Paul also breathed out threatenings and slaughter; that is a wind. Acts 2 is a rushing, mighty wind from heaven, and it filled the house; the point is that these men are endued by power from there.
AFM I was going to ask if that was with a view to a continuation of what began in Christ?
Christ was heavenly, and it is now continued in the saints.
JT If you look at the way in which heaven comes into evidence in the gospel of Luke, its mind about Christ is in view; its appreciation of the intrinsic worth of Christ. In Acts 2 there is a rushing, mighty wind; there is no such activity in connection with Christ. There was nothing in Him calling for such activity of the Spirit.
AFM The point is that there might be continuation here.
JT In this chapter the conditions and need of man on earth are in view. He has no inherent power, so all depends upon what comes from heaven.
The chapter is a testimony to the irresistible power of the wind, whereas when you come to chapter 7 things are reversed; it is an evil wind.
EJMcB You can understand that the company [p. 245] gathered according to this chapter would have their thoughts, in connection with the Son of man, turned back to Psalm 8 and they would have the thought of His name being excellent in all the earth; but the fact was, it was excellent in heaven, hence they required to be educated into the thought that everything was transferred to heaven; and that this was with a view to something on earth which would be spiritual, and which really was in character mighty and rushing.
JT Quite so, and not punitory judgment as yet; the fire is such as to sit upon them.
EJMcB In John 3 we see the full expression of the spiritual idea in John the Baptist. Do you not think you see it also in Stephen?
FL I think so; but the full development of it is really found in Paul.
EJMcB Reference was made just now to the adverse wind. No doubt the enemy tried to destroy what was spiritual; but the result of the adverse wind was that all broke out in fresh power; you have a greater opening up of spiritual things in Paul than in Stephen.
JT It would be a great thing to get into our minds, how God came in at Jerusalem in the assertion of the rights of heaven, and how the disciples were brought into accord with heaven. Peter’s address is an account of what is in heaven, as explaining the effect produced on earth. Three thousand persons were brought under the influence of the Spirit come from heaven.
Rem Heaven respects Christ; it is on account of that that it is said, “This is my beloved Son, hear him”.
JT In that way it is a question of what is on earth in Luke’s gospel, but in Acts it is more a question of what is in heaven. Christ has left earth and [p. 246] gone there.
RSS Luke closed with the word that the disciples were to tarry in Jerusalem until endued with power from on high.
JT The gospel is Christ on earth, and the Acts is Christ in heaven.
EJMcB It is a principle of all importance to recognise that the position here must be governed by the position of Christ in heaven. Christ is of all importance with God, and it is a great thing to get the light in which Christ is presented at any particular moment.
RSS Christ’s position always determines ours.
EJMcB A heavenly man would not only walk uprightly, but would set forth what is heavenly.
BTF Would you connect the gospels more with what David did, and the Acts with the work of Solomon?
JT Yes; I would say that.
EJMcB It seems to me that many have the thought that spirituality in a meeting is limited to one or two brothers or sisters.
ANW Is “spiritual” interchangeable with “heavenly?”
EJMcB In Scripture “heavenly” is contrasted with “earthly”, and “spiritual” with “natural”. If we were spiritual we would be in God’s thoughts of Christ at this moment; those are connected with heaven. Christ is coming back, as indicated in Psalm 8. His name shall be excellent in the earth; but God’s present thoughts of Christ are connected with heaven, and so the spiritual man would be heavenly. I do not know any better scripture to illustrate it than the passage in Ephesians: “Let him that stole steal no more”; that is not heavenly, “but rather let him labour that he may have to give”; that is heavenly; heaven requires that you should be dispensing.
RSS Movement in a soul is connected with [p. 247] the recognition of Christ as One chosen of God, as the fountain of a new system. It says, “To whom coming as unto a living stone ... but chosen of God”.
FL In Matthew 14 we get help in a practical way; the violence of wind and storm was satanic; but Christ was observed on the water and Peter, who represents the spiritual man, was enabled to walk upon it. “If it be thou, bid me come unto thee”.
PJ In regard to the environment of the saints in Acts, how may it affect us today?
EJMcB You can see plenty of people who are largely affected by the environment in which they live. Supposing a person comes into a meeting on conventional lines; it will be a great test to him as to whether he can really rise above it and be spiritual; unless he comes in on spiritual lines the surroundings will hinder him.
PHP Are the Spirit’s activities in the character of a rushing, mighty wind now?
JT I would say that. The Spirit comes in as armed with credentials; that is, with manifest power; heaven’s rights are to be supported here.
EJMcB A space, as it were, has been cleared. Now the point is that we should be spiritual enough to occupy it.
JT If you respect heaven’s rights in your own history God will support you. One has often noticed in the book of Numbers in the times of crises, and there were several of them, that the glory appears; that is, God does something to show that He is supporting His rights and those who stand by them.
EJMcB My own personal exercise has been greatly on that line, that we might have thoughts in accord with what God is. Just as in the early Acts every environment that had been sanctioned by God in the past was inclined to hinder them from apprehending the greatest Man, the One in heaven. If [p. 248] you pursue it, what tender consideration God took with Peter to release him from the last trammel of that environment.
RSS You refer to Acts 10 in connection with Peter?
JT “When he, the Spirit of truth, is come”, the Lord tells us, “he will bring demonstration to the world, of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment”. “Of righteousness because I go away to my Father”. Now it was a question of whom God would justify; there was an issue between Christ and the Jews; and consequently between the Jews and Christ’s followers. How was God going to decide? The spiritual man counts upon God’s decision; He decides things; you cannot justify yourself, though your position here may be called in question. Here were these disciples, followers of Jesus, but they were under reproach outwardly. The coming in of the Spirit was God’s vindication both of Christ and the apostles; that is the principle upon which God has gone all along. God decides by some distinct mark out of heaven. They received the Spirit and thus were distinguished; “it sat upon each of them”. This would silence every dissenting voice. I think the spiritual can always count upon that. God will distinguish, in some sense, those that stand by right principles.
EJMcB What would mark a spiritual man at a juncture like that would be that he would behave like a child; he would wait until the Spirit makes its influence felt.
Ques Do you see that in Hannah?
EJMcB You do.
PJ Is everything official set aside?
JT Those that heaven recognises must depend on heaven; they are not owned officially in Jerusalem; they are disowned there. But heaven had acted; the tongues sat on each of the disciples. God [p. 249] asserted Himself and owned followers of Christ in this way.
FL I suppose that is in line with what is said in Timothy, “justified in the Spirit”. That is the principle upon which God approves and supports what is according to Himself now. Whatever is approved of God has the support of heaven. As supported and justified in the Spirit it must inevitably be refused as distasteful to men.
EJMcB I think Scripture supports the thought. “Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you”.
FL In connection with your remarks, we get the impression that if we speak at all we have to say something worth while, and very often we hold back the “five words” which would be said if we were spiritual.
JT I think it might be well to bear in mind that after the coming in of the Spirit men were able to say, “We do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God”. All saints should be equal to that, but when it comes to teaching and preaching you must have gift; and so the passage in Acts 2 teaches, us that when it comes to ministry Peter stands up, not with the one hundred and twenty, but with “the eleven”. They were the gifted ones. Often you find the radical spirit that would set that aside; heaven asserts that it takes up whom it pleases for ministry; the Spirit comes to all saints, and all saints have capacity to participate in the things of God, but when it comes to ministry Peter stands up “with the eleven”; not with the one hundred and twenty. That is to say, we must distinguish in regard to gift. The Lord has a right to take up whom He will and endow him with a gift, and this is distinct from the reception of the Spirit.
EJMcB You get a beautiful picture here when Peter got up; there was the [p. 250] spirit of inquiry.
JT That inquiry brought out more.
EJMcB “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Peter had brought out what God thought, and there seemed to be a great issue between God and the Jews; and this question drew from Peter the information as to their place in connection with the light that had come in.
BTF Was there not something beyond the testimony of Peter and those with him? You have the cloven tongues as of fire, but the whole truth was not then unfolded by Peter.
JT Attention has been called to Paul; that the Spirit of God waited for the rejection, on the part of Israel, of the wonderful testimony rendered to them in the presence of the Spirit, before He cast them off. He waited till then to unfold the full heavenly position; and really you do not get the full spiritual position until Paul is called out. But then this chapter shows what heaven could do for Israel as testimony, and what heaven will do for Israel.
Ques Would you tell us what heaven is doing for us at this present moment?
JT Heaven raised up men to recover the truth, so that we have the apostles’ doctrine recovered; that is to say, the assembly’s position in the counsels of God, and what it is as the house of God, as seen down here. Heaven has done that, and we can depend upon heaven to act for us upon those principles until the close.
CHB Not only was the Spirit given, but gifts also are given.
JT What you find is that in the apostles these gifts were respected by the saints. “They continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine”. The emphasis is on apostles.
EJMcB Recognition of gift helps us, because the Spirit of God is grieved if that which is the result [p. 251] here of the glorified Man is despised. Where there was grace from God to recognise it, there was increased opportunity for gift.
FL When the Lord was here His ministry was limited, where there was a lack of faith; now if the truth is not appreciated a limitation is put, upon it. We should support what we have.
JT If you see what a gift is you recognise it; it is really an adornment. The greater number of gifts the better off I am. A gift is not the possessor’s alone; it belongs to us all; you do not envy the man to whom that gift belongs; it is an adornment and it belongs to all the saints.
AFM How do you recognise gift?
JT There is ability to express Christ, and there is power which makes headway against evil. A gift is a testimony to the Lord’s care for the assembly.
It affords support and protection for the saints.
EJMcB We might say that if there were more spirituality there would be more recognition of gift.
RSS There would be a better outflow. The apostle writes to the Hebrews, speaking of Melchisedec, “Of whom we have many things to say and hard to be uttered seeing ye are dull of hearing”. If we were more receptive it would be far more easy for one to minister.
AAT In the first part of the meeting we were occupied with spiritual men, and now with gifts; can one be without spirituality and have gift?
JT One has known, alas, that some have gift and no spirituality.
PJ Judas had the gift of an apostle.
AFM The Corinthians also were not spiritual, 1 Corinthians 3: 1.
ANW Tell us how to “covet earnestly the best gifts”.
EJMcB If you love the brethren you would look to be of the best possible use [p. 252] to them.
Ques Is that laying down your life for the brethren?
EJMcB It is indeed. Supposing we are in exercise for one another, seeing need we would covet to supply the need.
PHP Have not all the saints some gift?
JT In Ephesians 4 we are told that “unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ”. Each saint has something and this chapter shows that the gift sat on each. But then, in Ephesians 4 we have also specific gifts.
FL The measure of gift which is viewed in Ephesians, as common to all, comes in as essential in our gatherings, because in a great many of our gatherings we have no one who is marked out specifically as gifted. We are therefore dependent upon that gift which is common to all, and is really the consequence of saints walking in the power of the Spirit.
Rem The great service of some is to be alone with God in prayer for the saints, and the result comes out.
EJMcB Some have gift and are with God that the saints might be kept together. Every saint has some place wherein he fills some part of the whole; but then there is that which is distinct and given by the Man Christ Jesus, when gone on high. He ascended up on high. He led captivity captive, then He gives distinct divine gifts.
Ques Are specific gifts set aside today?
EJMcB I do not think so. I can understand a brother who has a distinct gift, but who is isolated like John at Patmos. He would be with God, and written ministry from him might reach the people of God.
PJ Epaphras laboured in prayer.
JT Having ascended, He gave gifts to men.
[p. 253] The Lord acted wisely. You must have authority, and so you get an apostle first, then a prophet. The apostles represent the authority of Christ, the prophet brings in the mind of God. Then the evangelist carries the gospel to men.
AFM Then “pastors and teachers”.
JT If the evangelist is successful you have a flock and so pastors and teachers are needed.
AFM Is the gift of pastor and teacher combined?
JT Yes.
Ques Will you explain carrying captivity captive.
EJMcB When they put the stone at the tomb they thought that it defeated the Lord, but, going up, He carried their last weapon with Him. People expect outward improvement, but it is all outside of spirituality.
TR Is the exercise of spirituality not in view of placing the saints in a position of power down here?
EJMcB I believe the education today is in accord with the extraordinary position the saints will fill. If you have a man who is going to be a clerk all his life you do not trouble about languages, but if he is going to be Prime Minister he must have a special education. The Lord puts every one in exactly the circumstances in this life which are conducive to the development of what is spiritual.
TR Each one ought to be exercised as to his own position.
EJMcB Look at the easy way in which we change our circumstances. That is the reverse to spirituality.
WLP That would apply to a brother taking a position where there was no meeting.
Rem I would like to ask as to, “unto every one of us is given grace”.
EJMcB Reference has been made to the gift [p. 254] of grace, and I would say that every one is capable of filling a place that tends to the mutual profit of all. You can be just what you are where you are.
PJ It is very simple to be a channel of refreshment to the saints as Onesiphorus: “he oft refreshed me”. There is nothing I covet more than to be a channel of refreshment to the saints.
EJMcB My exercise should be that I should be in the light of heaven, and that requires spirituality.