⬇ EPUB

THE SPIRIT AS LIFE

THR I think it is important that we should see that in the end of chapter 7 it is learnt that man after the flesh is done with, and then the Spirit brings God in in chapter 8. The things of man are done with, for all ends in “O wretched man that I am!” and now the Spirit brings God in in chapter 8.

JT And in a sense, in the power of the Spirit, you have man adjusted in chapter 8. In chapter 5 you have the love of God shed abroad in the heart by the Spirit, from the divine side, but in chapter 8 the man is adjusted according to God.

DLH That is to say, God has not given up His glory in relation to man, but all is maintained.

THR Now man’s resource is in God; that is, the administration of all that God is in Christ sets one free by the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

JT I was thinking of the necessity for man to be adjusted here in righteousness, in the light of what we see in this epistle. God has come out in order to clear everything away from His side, but then man has to be adjusted here in regard to God, so that, before we could touch anything in regard to the body, we must be adjusted; that is, the relation between God and us must be adjusted, and this is brought about by the Spirit.

DLH Is that brought about by the presentation of God?

JT I thought perhaps that is more in the earlier part of the epistle. The Spirit in chapter 5 is from God’s side.

THR I think it is; the Spirit of God brings in the things of God in ^[p. 320] this chapter.

JSG Do I understand that necessarily there must be what we may call two sides? First of all God Himself is brought in as a commanding object; that is chapter 5. Now in chapter 8 we have a people who are of God, and who find everything in God. The point in chapter 5 is God coming in to fill the scene, and in chapter 8 it is the people who live in the Spirit in and by the revelation of God.

THR In chapter 8 you get the real answer to the question “who shall deliver me?”

WJ In the earlier part of the epistle it is what God is for us; here, how we can be for God.

JT That is, a man who has the Spirit can consider for God. God commends Himself to us, that is His side; now what can you be for God? So you take up the covenant, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in you; you begin at the bottom.

DLH God has His own way to effect that, and that is by the Spirit.

EJMcB You could scarcely realise what the “wretched man” is save in the light of what God is.

FHB I thought the effect of having the Spirit of God is that what has been revealed of God may be made effectual in us.

JT Is not that a very important point in the development of the testimony, that divine thoughts should take form in man down here?

DLH We cannot separate between these different parts of Romans; we can distinguish them, but we should never get chapter 8 if we had not chapter 5.

JT You have a deliverer, “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord”. Christ in that way secures a place in the heart.

Rem In Exodus God says “I am come down to deliver”, and here it is as if God, having finished with Israel, opens everything in Christ in a new and complete way.

^[p. 321] WJ I think it is important to see that everything has to be established here in order to enter into other things.

JT In order to touch the body you must be adjusted in regard to things here. How could you come out in the truth of the body unless you have paid your debts here?

THR Like a general, he cannot advance into a new country if his communications are not clear. You must be adjusted here before you can enter into the heavenly country.

JT Many have the Spirit and are in the body from the divine side, but practical obligations here are not met, and therefore the thing is null and void to such.

FHB It is one thing to have the Spirit, and another thing to walk in the Spirit.

JT And to make use of the Spirit, so that we should be enabled to discharge every moral obligation.

WJ We have in Romans 8 the Spirit in order to fulfil those obligations. Our state is in the Spirit, and so we have ability to enter into what is divine.

What you mean as to paying debts is that there is love Godward and love manward?

JT Quite so. Many a man has capital but he does not use it, therefore he does not get rich. Using the Spirit is minding the things of the Spirit. You disallow the flesh and regard the Spirit; you sell the oil. If we have the Spirit the thing is to use the Spirit and not simply to rest in having the Spirit.

JSG The point in Romans 8 is not only having the Spirit but having a new state in the Spirit.

JT I think from this point of view the affections developed by the Spirit are covenant affections. We have to distinguish between covenant affections and family affections. I think covenant relationships ^[p. 322] involve that we are equal to the obligations of the contract entered into.

WJ You must be in righteousness to enjoy relationship.

THR You live in the Spirit; the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. That is a resurrection life which He has as coming out of death, that entirely supersedes the old thing, it delivers you from the governing principle of the old thing. The governing principle for you now is the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and that displaces the other principle which belongs to nature, that is the law of sin and death. You must get that displaced before you can go on.

FHB Before we can make use of the Spirit we must know the object for which the Spirit is given.

THR We have the Spirit as the life of another Man.

JT It is remarkable how it is put here, “that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us ... who walk ... after the Spirit”, as if it would emphasise the place the Spirit has.

THR It is the Spirit as life. It springs up and has Christ as its source. You have the breathing of the life of Christ, and then you have the Spirit, that that life may develop in all its proper relationships.

JT It is well to take things as they stand. “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death” is a statement by itself, which refers back to chapter 7; then it goes on to say, that what the “law could not do”, God did in sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, “that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit”. I think we ought to keep clear the importance of the Spirit.

JSG “If Christ be in you, the Spirit is life on account of righteousness”, but does it say anywhere that we have life, or that we are in life? I think it is a very important distinction, and I do not see how we could be spoken of as being in life from the point of view of Romans 8.

Rem What about chapter 6?

JSG But chapter 6 is reckoning.

Rem In chapter 5 you have justification of life.

JSG Yes; towards all, because of the new Head. How I understand it is that in chapter 5 God is revealed, so that He is the absorbing object.

In chapter 6 it is the mind, so that a person reckons with God; then when you come to chapter 8 you have a people here on earth set up in the power of the Spirit of God, so that they are marked by righteousness, love, and the different characteristics mentioned in the chapter.

JT Romans 8 gives us the spirit of things. It would be going too far to say that it introduces the things themselves; it is the Spirit of life, the Spirit of sonship, so that the point is to emphasise the Spirit.

THR I quite agree with that. I think it is the Spirit giving the character of Christ in the soul.

It is not the Spirit alone, but the Spirit as characterising us.

JT You would not bring Canaan into Romans 8.

You have the spirit of things in the wilderness, and in virtue of that you have what answers to God in the wilderness.

PRM What is the force of “ye shall live” in verse 13?

JT I think that is life as power. Not eternal life exactly; eternal life is in Christ, and belongs to Canaan, whereas here, and in virtue of the Spirit, it is “ye shall live”. The emphasis is on the Spirit, that by the Spirit a state of things is brought about in the soul which is life as power.

^[p. 324] THR If we have not the life of the heavenly Man, we shall not want to go to heaven.

JT We want to have all the things behind us settled before we can go on.

THR It is life in resurrection; the life which He breathed into His disciples.

DLH I do not think it is our resurrection.

JT That is an important distinction. It is an abstract statement; “life in Christ Jesus” is Canaan, but it is not developed in the passage. The point is to show what the Spirit is in the wilderness, so that he begins with the practical results, that the righteous requirements of the law should be fulfilled in us.

JSG Does not the verse quoted help, “ye shall live”? The result is that you go over Jordan, but does Romans reach as far as that.

JT No. The point in Romans is to emphasise what the Spirit is to us.

DLH We get Christ risen, but not that we are risen.

HD'AC There is something in the fact that it is “ye shall live”, not ye live.

JT I should think there is a very great deal in that.

HD'AC You get the elements that lead to new creation here.

JT It is a result, but the result is not developed.

There is a basis laid here for all that follows.

DLH The great point in Romans is, that man has utterly broken down in his responsibility, to God, and God comes out, reveals Himself and finds a Head for man, and then man receives the Spirit of the Head, and this is in view of his maintaining the responsibility which the creature ought to maintain.

Is not that the great point in Romans?

JT I think so; it is the adjustment of the relations between God and man. God and man are ^[p. 325] brought together in righteousness, so that a good Roman is prepared for the assembly. I have often thought that before you introduce the idea of heaven the earthly side must be adjusted.

JV Would the type be from the brazen serpent to the Jordan?

JT Yes, so that it is Deuteronomy ground.

JSG I suppose that the great principles will apply to others besides the assembly.

JT But no matter what is touched by the assembly, there is a colour given to it which is not found with other families.

ASL You say eternal life belongs to the land?

JT Yes, eternal life is in Christ Jesus. In chapter 5 it is “through”, in chapter 8 it is “in Christ Jesus”, and “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus”.

ASL But you do not get eternal life in Colossians or Ephesians.

JT Because, as has been said, generally eternal life is for the earth.

Ques Is it life potentially in Romans 8?

JT Yes. It is a question of power in the soul. Eternal life is God’s great thought for man. Hence it is wonderful how it is presented in John 3.

JSG In Romans 8 is it what we may call the elements of the person’s spiritual being who will enter into the land?

JT Yes, in the Spirit: you have in principle every phase of the constitution of the person who enters into Canaan.

JSG The person is viewed as on Deuteronomy ground, or in the state that is necessary to pass over Jordan.

JT Yes, in the recognition of the Spirit you are prepared for headship.

^[p. 326] Ques Does it come to light as led of the Spirit?

JT Those who enter in come to light as disallowing the flesh. They come to light down here so that God is justified in having them in heaven.

JSG Am I right in saying that if we see with God, we can take account of ourselves as those whom God has made to live, having a being with these characteristics?

JT You want the consciousness of the Spirit, the Spirit of life, the Spirit of sonship; you may have the consciousness of all that.

JSG Having learnt what I am as a sinner, I want to learn what I am in connection with God and Christ, as having been formed and set up in the Spirit.

JT I think we ought to be very simple about righteousness. The Spirit enables us to fulfil every moral obligation. There is no progress made in our souls unless the obligations are fulfilled.

WJ There lies the difficulty. We have no ability to enter into assembly truth unless we are established in righteousness.

JT In 2 Kings 4 you have the widow; she has the oil but she is a debtor; she sells the oil and pays her debts. And then what follows is in regard to a “great woman”. Who is great but one who is superior to what is down here? You are great by what you sell and make use of. God can recognise a people here, but they have to come up to the covenant. It is most interesting in Exodus 19 to see the pains Jehovah takes to commend Himself to His people. “You have seen how I have borne you on eagles’ wings”, etc. Now, what about you?

‘Is it worth your while to enter into covenant relations with Me?’ Then in putting out our hand and committing ourselves to God the obligations arise, and in the power of the Spirit we love God and our brethren.

^[p. 327] Rem It is an important truth, not only to have the Spirit, but to use the Spirit; how does it work out?

JT You recognise the Spirit as the subjective power instead of the flesh. In everyday life you recognise the Spirit. It comes to this, there is constant self-judgment. Hence in the feasts; the feast of unleavened bread is to be kept seven days, but in regard to Pentecost there is no time stated. If you maintain self-judgment there is no limit to what you may have in the Spirit.

GeoC Is it not important to keep together that having Christ as my object, the Spirit is free to act?

“They ministered to the Lord and fasted”; then the Spirit said: “Separate me Barnabas and Saul”.

JT So in chapter 13 there is a very important addition. In Jerusalem in the earlier chapters the Spirit was free. “He hath shed forth this which ye now see and hear”. There was the day of Pentecost, the most wonderful day in a sense that ever dawned.

“He hath shed forth this”, and in the power of that Spirit they were speaking of the wonderful works of God. As things proceeded in Jerusalem the Spirit became hampered, and hence in chapter 13, which you have quoted, you come to a fresh start. You get “The Spirit said” — the Spirit is free now some where else (in Antioch). So the great thing for us is to make room for the Spirit, then we shall have refreshing ministry.

GeoC Is there not a danger of being more dependent on the Spirit than on the Lord?

JT I think there has been more sin against the Spirit than against Christ. Where would the Spirit lead a soul to but to Christ? But then the Lord formally points out how terrible the sin against the Holy Spirit is. The sin against the Son of man can be forgiven, but not the sin against the Holy Spirit.

In the history of Christendom that is ^[p. 328] so; all the great bodies recognise Christ, but what about the Spirit?

JSG Is it not a disgrace to us to be so small?

WJ It is as though we had £20,000 a year income and were just living on a £5 note. You are made to feel that in Romans 8.

JT I think in the evangelical world there are a great number of people who are satisfied with having the Spirit, who do not acquire the use of the Spirit, they do not sell the oil, they have not proceeded to pay the debts. It means the moving out of one thing into another. I think I can tell you what the result will be if we honestly desire to pay the debts.

I believe we shall find our brethren. There is something very honest about a man who hunts up someone to whom he owes something — I mean the brother.

Joseph’s brethren came to him; they did not say they were eleven brethren, they said, “Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man”, and if you are a righteous man you owe every one of them something.

DLH In Romans you are to owe no man any thing save to love one another.

JT “Is there not yet any of the house of Saul, that I may show the kindness of God?” that is the idea of righteousness; David was looking for the man. Judah thought for his father and for his brethren, and then the disclosure was made. So we may depend upon it that if the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in us we shall find the brethren.

HD'AC Hezekiah invited all his brethren throughout Israel.

DLH The great point in Romans is the fulfilling of the responsibilities of the creature — man — towards the Creator, and the way that is produced is that God presents Himself, finds a Head for man, and one is set up in the Spirit of another Man in order ^[p. 329] to fulfil every responsibility in which one has utterly broken down as a man after the flesh.

JT That is, while the recovery is in man, it is man in Christ; hence this chapter brings in the spirit of that Man.

Ques Would you say that walking in righteousness leaves room for the Spirit?

JT Of course it does.

JV It is a remarkable thing that after Numbers 21, wherever the children of Israel rested, it was by water courses.

JT In the earlier part of the book of Exodus the water was outside of them, “they drank of the rock which followed them”; it is very touching in that way the water always goes with them. But then in Romans 8 it is the water in you.

JSG Why, in verse 2, does the apostle only speak of himself, whilst in verse 4 he speaks generally?

JT I think verse 2 is abstract — he could not say it definitely of all the saints.

JSG Does not that help as to what we have had? But when you come to verse 4, he introduces abruptly certain kind of persons.

FHB The second verse no one could predicate of any one else.

THR The Spirit of the life of Christ must spring up in its own affections and nature, and therefore in John’s epistle it is the divine nature that springs up; it does not come in the way of commandment, but nature.

JT If the point in the scripture is the Spirit, it is important to get what the thought of the Spirit is.

THR What is so remarkable is this, in connection with the Spirit in us as life, it produces in me all sorts of desires and affections in connection with Christ, and yet they are mine.

JT What I see here is that if you pursue the course of the chapter you are set in activity, you ^[p. 330] find the brethren of Christ. The effect of recognising the Spirit is that we walk in righteousness here, but in addition to that God’s sons come to light. The mind of God is known by the Spirit, and the brethren of Christ come to light, but the prominent feature here is that it is through the recognition of the Spirit.

WJ I would like to ask, in connection with what was read in chapter 12, why in Romans you get “many members in one body”, while it is the reverse in Corinthians?

DLH Is not the body introduced in Romans in relation to the first circle in which the Christian’s responsibility may be given effect to?

JT It is not the body of Christ exactly, but the saints begin to recognise their obligations to one another.

THR It is, “as God has given to every man”.

JSG We should bear in mind that in Romans the question is rather the presence of the Spirit, and not so much the formative work of the Spirit; but when you come to Colossians, Ephesians and John’s epistles you have not only His presence, but the formative work of the Spirit. In Romans it is the presence of the Spirit, but not the formative work of the Spirit.

THR Like Israel, you have got redemption; but you begin, not with the law, but with the Spirit.

JSG Take, for instance, Colossians; the saints there are viewed with “Christ in them”; that is a fuller thought than anything in Romans: Then in John’s epistles the saints are viewed as formed in the divine nature.

THR In the Spirit you have everything.

JSG But what do you mean by having got it?

It all lies in the Spirit, but the person may not have got what lies in the Spirit. The babe is not a young man until he has grown to a ^[p. 331] young man.

FHB We have the beginning of that formative work, because it says, “If Christ be in you”.

JT There are certain things introduced into the chapter to complete the subject, but they are not the main thought. You get “life in Christ Jesus”, but it is not developed in the chapter; so “if Christ be in you”, but it does not say He is in you; it is not developed, but it lays the basis for wonderful things to be developed. It opens up a wonderful thing, that “ye shall live”. You are like the woman in 2 Kings 4.

JSG Does it not mean, in speaking about leading, going over Jordan?

JT Yes.

WJ In Colossians you get very little about the Spirit.

JT Because you have it here in Romans.

JSG It would hardly be right to say that we have everything by the possession of the Spirit, but we have the Spirit, that we may enter into every thing. It is of the utmost importance, that if you take things subjectively, we have nothing but what we have grown into, and that is by the work of the Spirit.

ASL On the gift side you have everything?

JSG Certainly. Do you not think that this is the secret of the present state of Christendom; they ignore the work of the Spirit?

EJMcB I think another very important truth is that it is not the Spirit that is formed in you, but Christ. Having the Spirit is the very necessary equipment for the formation of Christ, but it does not say that you have been formed in Christ.

Ques Could persons have the Spirit and not have Christ in them?

JT They could; the Corinthians had not ^[p. 332] Christ in them.

JSG In Galatians the apostle travailed in birth until Christ was formed in them. It is a solemn thing that we may have the Spirit and yet be unspiritual.

Ques Where, in connection with this subject, do the exhortations come in?

JT The exhortations are based on the doctrine of the epistle. In chapter 12, How do you present your bodies a living sacrifice? By the Spirit.

Ques They express righteousness; that is love.

JT Quite so.

FHB Is not righteousness expressed in three ways; toward God, toward Christ and toward the brethren?

JT So that you fully answer to the covenant; you are maintaining your side of it.

JSG You would link chapter 13 with chapter 12. As I have to pass through man’s kingdom my righteousness is to be subject to the powers that be, and to “owe no man anything”. Chapters 12 and 13 give the expansion of what practical righteousness is.

WJ Is it clear that the subject before us is the body?

JT We are as yet only looking at the basis of it.. If you find your brethren on the principle of righteousness then you are going to keep them. You do not want to let one of your brethren go, and you set your mind on keeping them. Judah said “we be twelve brethren”. That is to say, we keep each other by love. “By love serve one another”, and “the body builds itself up in love”. The Spirit is the link as to principle; as to fact it is love.

Rem The apostle was walking in righteousness in chapter 1, and so he was a debtor to all men, and was ready to preach the gospel at Rome also, that he might discover the ^[p. 333] brethren there.

JSG It is remarkable that all are made to drink into one Spirit, and so in that way you have the foundation idea of the body, which is expressed by walking in love.

JT It comes to this; Can you spare any brother? You cannot get along without the brethren, but can you get along without one of them? “There is little Benjamin”.

DLH I suppose the point here is, that we are delivered from independency by the Spirit; secondly, we are dependent, we are looking about for others, and we are necessary to each other.

ASL It was said that in Romans 12 it is not the body of Christ.

JT “We being many are one body in Christ”.

That has reference more to what we are to each other than as setting forth Christ down here.

JSG The point is really to check lawlessness and everything of that kind. We have to be consistent with the fact that we are one body in Christ.

ASL It is on the line of responsibility.

JT What is in the mind in the expression “Christ’s body” is, that you see Christ, but it is more here what you are to me and what I am to you. So one has a true estimate of himself and of others.

FHB I think it was brought in to correct thinking too much of ourselves.

JT If you have anything it belongs to all, but it does not detract from any; you find that in a meeting where persons have grown a bit you have more power. There is no cause for envy, for what we have is mutual.

ASL But that supposes state.

JT I think it is a great thing to have a good supply of unleavened bread. I was thinking of Lot; ^[p. 334] it is a very remarkable thing that directly the angels came to Sodom the unleavened bread was there.

It is a very remarkable thing that he had it in Sodom.

Rem Scripture speaks of him as “that righteous man”.

JT You can understand it in the light of the New Testament. The thought of the body breaks down all national feeling and all that sort of thing; the body is one.

Rem It seems consistent with what you get in Romans.

JSG Does it not help to notice that in Romans it is saints viewed as in the kingdom of God; now when you come to Colossians the saints are viewed there as forming the body of Christ.

WJ How necessary therefore the truth of the kingdom.

Rem In Romans it is on earth and for the earth; does Romans carry you farther than that?

JT It lays the basis for greater things. It would be a great thing if we were led to seek out our brethren, to pay our debts. Take Matthew 5: 23, “If thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest”. You are reminded there that you must have your brother, so that whilst we must be separated from them we feel the separation.

JSG And I allow nothing on my side that would hinder.

JT It is very serious to have a quarrel with your brother.

FHB It may not be due to us.

JT But still it is a serious thing that there should be a breach, and you should feel the existence of a breach.

Rem You would not say that an adversary is a brother.

JT But there it is, there is ^[p. 335] an adversary.

DLH With regard to one having a right estimate of oneself, I suppose we ought to have a right estimate of our place in regard to the body, so as to fulfil it.

JT I suppose that would be implied in thinking soberly. In the working out of the truth of the body, whilst love is the subjective power, it is the working out of wisdom. So, in the epistle to the Ephesians, “the all various wisdom of God” is seen in the assembly. But how? By each member becoming wise.

Ques How do you get the right estimate?

DLH In thinking so as to be wise. God has given me the Spirit so that I may answer to every relation in which I am set, but if I do not know the relationship I cannot fulfil it.

← Previous Article 36 of 50 Next →