PURIFICATION (3)
PURIFICATION (3)
JT The truth concerning eternal life has been before us in our readings so far but only in a secondary way, whereas this section of scripture treats of it in the absolute; in one sense it treats of it as a finished matter, a finished subject. The passage reads, “This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth. For they that bear witness are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one”. So we see by this introduction that the matter is treated in a full or absolute sense. The immediate means of reaching eternal life has been stated. It would be the water and blood, all that came by water and blood. The Lord had it in mind in becoming man, as it were, basically, so that it was the prime thought in His mind. He came by these things. We looked at the subject in Titus which is augmentary, in a sense filling out the idea of salvation. In Matthew eternal life is treated as belonging to the earth; not only persons but the nations themselves are viewed as going into it. In no sense do they go to heaven. It is a question of a sphere of blessing on earth, whereas John treats of it, as we said, in a basic sense of entering into christianity. So that he begins or continues the subject of new birth running into the matter of eternal life as a gift. In John 3 the great thought of gift is in the gospel, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal”. It is a gift in the full sense and the gospel continues to treat of it in chapter 4 on the principle of the Spirit springing up into it, not something on the level of the nations [p. 213] here but something to be reached as belonging to elevation. The Spirit or well of water springs up into eternal life and the subject of worship is continued on that, showing that it leads upward. So we should use these thoughts before us now in looking into this passage. It treats of the truth of eternal life, as it were, in the Lord’s mind in the beginning in becoming Man. “This is he that came by water and blood” involves that the idea of washing and purification is in view in entering into this great subject.
SMcC I should like to ask if you regard the thought of eternal life as bearing on the saints down here and linked with the ways of God on earth. Is it entirely linked with the provisional side of things or does it have any bearing on the position in glory?
JT I think it does. As we are indicating, it is an upward trend in John’s writings in view of eternal life. It is not the life on the earth as in Matthew where the nations are brought into it. John views it as leading up to heaven.
SMcC In the world to come, in the assembly, what would be the bearing of eternal life there? What would be the bearing on the saints?
JT I think it would be the tree of life which is the prime thought. It is said to be in the midst of the paradise of God. It is the highest level of it and those that wash according to Revelation 22 have a right to the tree of life and to enter by the gates into the city. The tree of life belongs to the paradise of God, which is identified with the assembly, the heavenly city.
SMcC Then would you regard the thought of eternal life as going through into eternal conditions?
JT I think it does. It is essential, for we are there as linked with Him in the city. What do you think?
SMcC What you have said of late helped much on the subject because the general trend of our apprehension [p. 214] of the subject has been to entirely limit it to the provisional side of our position.
JT Well, it is treated as a matter of purpose, as we saw yesterday in Titus, “The hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the ages of time”. And in 2 Timothy the apostle says, “Paul, apostle of Jesus Christ by God’s will, according to promise of life, the life which is in Christ Jesus”; and the Lord Himself speaks of it in John 17, “These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee; as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal. And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. The Lord there speaks of it as being administered, that the Lord should administer it. “Thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal”. That is, He would administer it to all that came to Him. Then He proceeds to say what it is, “This is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. This is in His mind and these are remarkable circumstances; it was in His mind to be administered.
CHH So that “He is the true God and eternal life” (1 John 5: 20) is an eternal thought.
JT I think so. It is in Himself.
SMcC Is it the thought that eternal life in eternal conditions is linked with the great general thought of life? It is a relative term over against the pressure of death, is it not? The word ‘eternal’ life would hardly have force in eternity, would it? Does it merge into the great idea of life generally as we have it now?
JT Well, it would hardly be stressed when there is nothing else to challenge it, but while we are here [p. 215] there is, and therefore the importance of the relative term. “In the coming age life eternal” shows that it has a beginning on earth but continues; the idea of eternity would drop but the thing is there. It is continued. I think that John’s epistle is intended to treat it in an absolute and complete sense. The words alluded to earlier, “This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness”, would mean it is a complete, full, and important subject. The idea of the truth supports this because it is added, “the Spirit is the truth”. It is a reciprocal term that could be turned around and say the truth is the Spirit. The truth is viewed as important as the Spirit in that sense. It is an eternal thought, an integral part of God, as it were, the Spirit being the truth. So we are forced into it in John’s writings particularly as a prime subject, a full, complete one. The Spirit Himself being the truth treats of it as a witness.
Ques Would eternal life be in the words of the Lord Jesus when He said, “Because I live ye also shall live”?
JT It would be that in John 14. The subject of life is treated in John up to chapter 12 in a formal way, and chapter 12 ends with the Lord saying that the Father’s commandment is eternal life.
Ques Would that help us to understand how the idea is continued? We live in that sense.
JT Well, He is life; but it says because He lives we live also. That brings our life up to His. We have part in it. But the matter is formally treated up to chapter 12, and you might say completed there, because the Father’s commandment, the Lord says, is eternal life-a very remarkable statement. The Father’s commandment would mean that that must go through. “For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father [p. 216] who sent me has himself given me commandment what I should say and what I should speak; and I know that his commandment is life eternal”. So that finality is to be reached on the subject in John although it is touched on afterwards. What is before us now is to understand the means by which it is intended to be reached and finalised, fixed as blessing in the divine scheme.
Ques Is eternal life a sphere or quality in the soul?
JT It is both. It is a thing that can be entered into according to what we quoted already, “These shall go away into ... life eternal”. They go away into it; therefore it is a sphere to be entered into. Now that is future. The nations will go into it. But as to the christian period the apostle says to Timothy, “Lay hold of eternal life”, and then again John says, “No murderer has eternal life abiding in him”. Negatively that would mean that it abides in some who are not murderers. It is in christians, in believers. It is a thing in us.
GMcP Have you in mind in suggesting the thought of eternal life that while the assembly is here it is to be enjoyed now?
JT That is the suggestion. The believer is to lay hold of it. It is a sphere of things. J.N.D. said that it is an out-of-the-world order of things.
CHH What is the distinction between the terms ‘eternal’ and ‘for ever and ever’? In Ezekiel 37 you get the idea of an eternal covenant established for ever. It is the covenant made with the house of Israel. “My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever”.
JT Well, that is to be understood contextually, as a blessing belonging to Israel. We have, for instance, the term ‘eternal Spirit’, what is eternal attached to the Holy Spirit, but we have to look into the context to see whether the blessing may refer to Israel as a nation; whether that is a primary thought [p. 217] or whether it is just a limited thought. Those who form the nation of Israel will be brought into another setting in a merging sense. That is, they will have part in the heavenly. All who form the Israelitish nation will enjoy the position in flesh and blood but that will not continue. God’s thought is that men should be spiritual and I apprehend that those who form the Israelitish nation in the coming day will merge into higher thoughts. There is much that is not written or said on those points, but what is of Israel and even flesh and blood will be blessed on earth but not in the final sense for they are to pass into eternal conditions. Flesh and blood is not to continue in the eternal state. That is clear, although it does in the millennium. So that the entry into eternal conditions is as persons, not as a nation. You cannot imagine that the nation of Israel would go to heaven and have part in the heavens in a literal sense, because old things are passing away.
Ques Why does the apostle say, “Not by water only, but by water and blood”?
JT That is to bring out the full thought of death, in the terminating sense as well as in the purifying sense. The blood was necessary as a witness that the condition of flesh and blood really was terminated in the death of Christ, though it is continued now in christians, and in the millennium, but that is only provisional. God has reached a new condition in manhood, while we are in flesh and blood; that is our place now, and all who are His are to conform to that new condition.
The regeneration will take place in the millennium and then we will be passing into a new heaven and a new earth wherein righteousness dwells. It is not only that righteousness reigns but dwells, and the new heavens and the new earth are a matter of new creation. The old is intelligently terminated and the means of the termination of it are water and blood. He came [p. 218] by water and blood, meaning that He came in connection with these things that were necessary to finish up the old condition and bring in the new.
CHH The term itself is not used in John 3 and 4 or in Titus although implied.
JT Without the shedding of blood there is no remission, and therefore the Lord came by these things. That is, He took manhood to die in it. He took the conditions in which He could die. He died to terminate the old flesh and blood condition and bring in the new. He appears to the brethren saying, “A spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having”, Luke 24: 39. He does not say blood; it is flesh and bones, a new condition which abides and that is what we are brought into. We are brought into that and that is what is meant in eternal life. We are dealing with the purifying side, the water and blood. These two elements are essential to purification in order that we enter into eternal life.
CHH Would you say there is anything more conveyed than in the Son of man being lifted up or as Titus speaks of Christ giving Himself? Is there some significance in bringing in this word ‘blood’?
JT It is because of what the judgment of God required. The idea of blood is promulgated from the outset. Water is there in type but blood is insisted upon. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Therefore the blood alludes to flesh and blood condition, to humanity. The Lord had to come that way so as to terminate it. “On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again”, John 10: 17. The Father loved Him for that, because He laid down that condition and took another condition. Taking it again means life in another condition, because He did not take up what He laid down. He came here to lay down His life and the Father loved Him [p. 219] for that.
CHH I think you said on one occasion that the blood removed man from before the eye of God and the water removed man from his own eyes. Is that right?
JT It is a question of state whereas blood deals with sin.
Ques It is only in John’s gospel that we get “blood and water”. Is not that another line of teaching?
JT Quite so. There is a witness to those two things. “There came out blood and water”, and here he says, “He that came by water and blood”. He transposes them, but for a purpose, because of the actual state they were in, a peculiar condition rather than sin.
JB Why does the witness come in immediately after this statement in 1 John 5?
JT “It is the Spirit that bears witness”. That is to say, the Spirit is competent to do this. John himself says in his gospel that he is a witness. The Spirit Himself is a witness, as already remarked. The idea of truth is as prominent as the Spirit so that there is no doubt as to what eternal conditions are to be. It is not to be flesh and blood but it is to be spiritual. The Spirit is a witness to that. Flesh and blood conditions are terminated because the Lord came in connection with these two things. The Spirit is a perfect, complete witness to that fact. It is terminated and the new heavens and the new earth cannot contain it. If it is continued on now, it is because God needs a witness. It is God’s divine purpose that He is able to carry on His testimony with men in flesh and blood. What is continued is the position that Christ is in now and that is involved in the term ‘eternal life’.
Ques John speaks in his epistle of “that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled,
[p. 220] concerning the word of life; (and the life has been manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us:)”, but here he says, “this life is in his Son”. Does anything of that go through into this new condition we are speaking of in chapter 5?
JT He is alluding to the Person of Christ in chapter 1. But instead of speaking of Him as a Person, he is speaking of Him as a condition. “That which was from the beginning” means what was there in manhood. “That which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life; (and the life has been manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us:)”. That has gone through because they refer to condition. It is the Person, of course, but a condition that God had in mind to establish and that condition was termed eternal life. Fifty years ago we had a great controversy. It was said that eternal life was a person in a condition, whereas the condition is in the person. The person is greater than the thing. “He is the true God and eternal life”. The idea of eternal life does not cover the truth of His Person. It is a matter of the condition of manhood that we can be brought into.
ASB That is very helpful because it says, “Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood” (verses 5, 6).
JT Just so. He became man. That is the condition He took to lay down. He does not carry that condition with Him. He laid it down. The accomplishment of the divine purpose contemplated eternal life. He has left that condition and His Father loves Him for it.
[p. 221] G Would you help us on the thought of water of life and tree of life in Revelation 22?
JT We will come to that because that is part of our subject. We have not come to the tree of life, but now we are seeking to get at the basis on which eternal life is found, how the Lord Jesus came in in connection with that, because He came in connection with those two things. The word ‘but’ implies that He came in connection with those two things. He was not a man before but He took that condition. It was needed as a basis for this great matter of eternal life. Eternal life was reached and established and then the condition He took was no longer needed. The condition that is needed for that is what Christ is in now. The position now requires eternal life, not flesh and blood, but flesh and bones, a new order of life.
CHH Would not the thought of water and blood be in its application to practically relieve us and deliver us from what is brought in by sin and death?
JT That is the idea. That is our subject, the question of purification, a man in a pure condition. God has in mind that we are to be purified, and water and blood are the means of it, the basic means of establishing for ever this great thought of eternal life. It implies a pure condition, impurity set aside for ever.
SWP Would the first few verses of this epistle introduce it, hearing, seeing, contemplating, handling, witnessing, and manifesting? Would all those be used to preserve us from mere abstract thinking?
JT Quite so. This is a concrete condition that they could see with their eyes. It may refer to what was in the flesh, because in Him was life, but it is more likely to refer to what He was in resurrection. He was really a Man then as before, so that christianity was set up on this principle of witness. The thing was there for anyone to see-I mean to say, those who had eyes to see. Therefore Peter speaks of certain men who were witnesses to Him in that [p. 222] condition.
SMcC Would you say something in regard to the water as we had it in the first reading in relation to new birth, and then the water in relation to the regeneration in Titus, and now the water in relation to this side?
JT I think we are brought back to water; we had the washing of regeneration yesterday. John is dealing with the matter now, not as salvation but a thing by itself. It is a witness too, but a thing by itself, so he says, “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. For this is the witness of God which he has witnessed concerning his Son. He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself; he that does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness which God has witnessed concerning his Son. And this is the witness”. Now notice this, he is coming down to one thing in the great subject of salvation, eternal life. Therefore it says, “And this is [p. 229] the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son”. The passage leads up to this and it seems to me that God has a witness not only in Christ personally, that eternal life, but He has a witness in the saints, a present concrete witness down here in the saints. That is, that God has given to us eternal life. It is not simply something that faith can lay hold of, but more than that, it is what Christ was here. The saints are here. We are also a witness to that as possessing it.
Ques Do we have to distinguish between the features of eternal life in chapter 1 that go through, contemplating, handling, and seeing, and the condition of flesh and blood that the Lord took which was terminated?
JT The actual condition was terminated, as we have said. The full thought of God was reached in resurrection. Now to apply that to us it is said of Him in 1 John 2: 5, “Hereby we know that we are in [p. 223] him. He that says he abides in him ought, even as he walked, himself also so to walk”. Remember that the early verses treat of Christ in manhood, in flesh and blood condition, but what He was so are we. Then it goes on, speaking of what is carried on in the saints, “Beloved, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment, which ye have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye heard. Again, I write a new commandment to you, which thing is true in him and in you”. I believe that is the point, what He was here in flesh and blood. He was eternal life before His death as much as after, only the condition was different after. Now we come into the after condition, as risen from the dead. It is eternal life we come into. So it is that the new commandment includes us, that is, includes the saints. They are witnesses, as Christ is the witness. In chapter 1 Christ is the witness, seen, handled, and so forth, but in chapter 2 the Spirit of God brings the thought down to us; the new commandment involves that we are brought into His condition, the condition He was in in flesh and blood provisionally, so that the witness of eternal life is seen in us. It is all provisional both in Him and us as a witness of God. Now the saints are a witness. That is how I understand the witness in chapter 5, “And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life”. It is there for any who have eyes to see. It is in us, but in Christ. It is a position of life into which we have come.
Rem So that His coming by water and blood is the means to this great end.
JT We should have it, you know. Therefore, the means of reaching this condition were in His mind all the time.
Ques Is it right to say His death is a necessity then?
JT Certainly. There would be nothing consistent [p. 224] in His becoming Man unless He took up the humanity in which He could die. He could have done otherwise, taking up humanity in which He could be for ever, but He would have no others with Him and that is the reason He came by water and blood. The water is the moral idea.
Ques In Hebrews 2 it says, “Since therefore the children partake of blood and flesh, he also, in like manner, took part in the same”. Is that the same idea?
JT Quite so. It is a necessity because of what is in the mind and counsel of God. “But thou hast prepared me a body”.
ASB I was wondering if the footnote in Hebrews 2 emphasises what you are saying, ‘There is an intended difference here between the words for “partake” ... and “took part in”. ... The first, referring to the children, is a common equal sharing of the nature. The second, referring to Christ, means, he took a part in it: and refers always to something outside myself’.
JT The condition was such that He could take part in it. We were not perfected and therefore there is the condition of imperfection and corruption. Adam failed and there was imperfection. The Lord Jesus took Adam’s condition but wholly uncorrupted, sinless. It shows how unique He was, and yet He was capable of dying and shedding blood so we should be brought into it through cleansing.
GMcP Does John 13 suggest the means of cleansing that we may have part with Him in the sphere in which He is?
JT That is another thing, but what we are at now does not go that far. It is a basic matter in this epistle. There it says, “Unless I wash thee, thou hast not part with me”. Here it is not quite that, it is bringing in a new condition in which we could have part whereas John 13 is our part in the assembly.
[p. 225] This is racial, a new race established. The Lord Jesus had part in the first race, the Adam race, but wholly separate, undefiled; but He took it on Himself-all the impurity we were in. He could only do it by taking this condition, namely, water and blood.
Ques “Even as he is, we also are in this world”,
1 John 4: 17. Is that a present condition?
JT Yes, that is abstract truth. It does not admit of anything else but that. There are other things that are not taken into account in the abstract statement.
CHH I suppose what Paul says would be concrete, “For we who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh”, 2 Corinthians 4: 11 .
JT Quite so. The life of Jesus, that is what He was in testimony.
SMcC When it says, “This life is in his Son” does that bring out the exalted position of it?
JT I think it is the immutability of it. His Son is declared to be Son of God in power. It is immutable because of the power that is there in the Son. There is no possibility of overthrowing it. The position is immutable. It is not simply a condition of life set up here. It is more than that. There is no such thing in any other quality in heaven or earth. When it is fixed, it is fixed. Fixity is a great point in this matter. It is in His Son. There is no possibility of Satan ever interfering with it again, such as he did in the garden of Eden.
CHH It says, “He that has the Son has life”. Is that on individual lines?
JT Quite so. It is well to have it that way because of the fixity of it, the immutability of it. Anybody could speak of it in that way but the joy of it is individual. There is no idea of interference again. It is so essential to the purpose of God that there should be life in men and that it is fixed in such a Person as the [p. 226] Son.
GMcP Is that what we have in mind when we say God has reached finality in Christ and the assembly?
JT Quite so. It is a fixed position and that is in the Son of God. What can be more powerful because He is the expression of divine power. “Marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead”, Romans 1: 4.
GVD Why is God so concerned with witness? It is stressed considerably in this section.
JT I think you can see that if you think of it. What an important thing it is for God to have a few brethren in this city who are a witness to His thoughts, not simply that they are in salvation but that He has given to them eternal life. He has given them the same thing that was here in Jesus in humanity; the same thing is here before He died and after. It is a concrete thing that God is stressing because the Holy Spirit is here. It is a substantial, spiritual matter and that is what God is witnessing to men and they are closing their eyes to it. How important it is that we should be a witness to it.
HB We read in chapter 2 that “the darkness is passing and the true light already shines”.
JT That is what we had. The new commandment is in us. What is true in Christ is true in us in our little way even now. The Spirit is here and the darkness is passing. If there is a handful or a hundred brethren, the darkness is passing in that way. God is a witness to that.
JMcK Does the man in John 9 go as far as this as over against all that was in the synagogue?
JT He became a witness. So the darkness is passing. There is very little light in this city but the darkness is passing to that extent, however little it may be, and God is a witness to that: “This is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son”. So the teaching runs on to the fact that the Lord Jesus is the true God and what [p. 227] could be more immutable and fixed? He is the living and true God.
SMcC Why should this be brought in in the light of the economy, “He is the true God and eternal life”?
JT I think that is brought in because the truth should merge in one Person. Therefore it is immutable, it is fixed. The Person is the life. The life that we have part in is also the God that we worship. He is the second Person in the Deity but the true God; there is no question of second in that. He is really God because the idea of God includes Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
CHH So that, as you said before, that expression was stated in the error that crept in fifty years ago. That was the great antidote for it.
JT Yes, it was. They insisted that eternal life was a person, that is, you are made eternal life through God. “He is the true God and eternal life”. They are two thoughts. That is what we are brought into. The centre of blessing is the same God we worship.
Ques Do we get the thought then that what came out in Christ is reproduced in the saints in the idea of witness?
JT That is what we mentioned in the new commandment. “Beloved, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment, which ye have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye heard. Again, I write a new commandment to you, which thing is true in him”. “Him” is the true God, but eternal life is also true in Him. It “is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light already shines”, meaning that however few we are the darkness is passing to that extent.
JB Would this be seen in “He that has the Son has life: he that has not the Son of God has not life” (chapter 5: 12)? It is a fixed state, is it [p. 228] not?
JT Quite so. Let us read the passage again. “These things have I written to you that ye may know that ye have eternal life who believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the boldness which we have towards him, that if we ask him anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of him” (verses 13 - 15). We are in relation to God and what we ask we know we will get according to His will. Confidence is in mind.
AB Does this section clarify what we have in chapter 3, “We know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure”. Is the thing worked out in detail here concretely?
JT Just so. There we are brought into the heavenly side of things. It does not yet appear what we shall be. We know what we are now. “See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God. For this reason the world knows us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we children of God, and what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”. That is the glorified position of Christ, “as he is”, not as He was even on earth after He arose. Therefore we are to be conformed to Christ’s body of glory which is His present body, the state He is in now.
TU Do you distinguish between testimony and eternal life or are they both the same? Testimony in its general bearing, for instance, the woman in John 4, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?”.
JT Eternal life is testimony but not everything. What you have spoken of is additional but part of the testimony. What we are saying now is, “And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life”. That is the witness; what you and I have now is the witness.
TU You have said in the past that testimony is a continuation of Christ down here in man. Does that link on now?
JT Well, it is as far as eternal life is concerned but it concerns other things too. The life of Jesus is to be manifested in our mortal flesh and that is testimony.
TU I was thinking that there may be a difference. It seems to be the witness of three, “the Spirit, and the water, and the blood”. It seems to be on the basis of the reception of that. Is that so?
JT You see these three witnesses are one and that one testimony would mean the acceptance of the purifying means in persons who receive eternal life. We come into the thing in our souls by the testimony of those three, but after we have received, there is a further thought of testimony in us. So we are an additional testimony, a continuance of what Christ was because we have received eternal life.
CHH Is there any essential difference in the life of Jesus and what He is now?
JT No essential difference, but I would say the life of Jesus as here in flesh and blood was one condition, but now He is in another, but the witness is in the assembly. What a witness it was at the beginning to God!
Ques Are not the conditions of eternal life in a way in themselves a testimony to Christ now?
JT Quite so. These meetings are a testimony in a little way. That is how it was in the beginning. The saints at Corinth would prophesy and that would be a testimony. The saints would love one another and it would be a testimony. That is the idea of what was set up in Christ.
Rem The Lord Jesus said, “By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves”, John 13:35.
JT Quite so.
JK Would this position be seen coming out in our prayers in regard to asking?
JT It is a very important thing that the brethren pray and are heard. If a man or woman is sick and they are raised up in answer to our prayers, it is a witness. The same kind of thing came out in the Lord’s life. The same thing is in the assembly but the more you look into it the more you are affected by the fact that God has set up Christ here to be the same witness in the assembly as He was before He died. It is Christ reproduced in His body.
CHH Referring to Ezekiel 36 you get the idea of testimony after purification. It says, “This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden”.
JT Quite so. Then in the next chapter the whole house of Israel is raised up and united and therefore a witness to God on the earth, an exceeding great army. Persons who had been dead morally are now standing on their own feet, justified and made to live, the Spirit of God in them. It is the same thing as here.
CHH Would you say there should be, as taking on the truth, some collective testimony to outsiders?
JT That is just the point. If any came in here, as at Corinth, what would they see? They would prophesy and the man falls down. He is judged of all. The whole meeting is brought into it, and he reports that God is among them and he worships God. This is a heathen person and he sees this and reports that God is among them of a truth. That is the idea. We must come back to this idea of purity. The means of purifying are water and blood and these three-the Spirit, and the water, and the blood-agree in one. If God has given us eternal life, we are pure.
The idea of purity must enter into it. Peter says,
“Your pure mind”, a pure humanity that comes out through self-judgment. The saints are to be more and more pure in their minds, thoughts, and affections.
SMcC In the expression “He that has the Son has life”, just what is involved in having the Son? Is that expression true of everyone who accepts the Lord Jesus as his Saviour or is it John’s characteristic way of speaking?
JT It is more than that. It is a question of the Son and he that has Him. We have already alluded to the man in John 9. His history is given in full with the intent that he should be a witness to what came out in the Lord’s ways on the earth. He was left to himself. He did what he was told and went to Siloam and washed and came seeing. What does he think about the Lord? He tells what he thinks about Him and then the Lord finds him. They cast him out. He is isolated, typical of a real christian. He is shut out of man’s system and the Lord says, ‘I will show Myself to this man’, and says, “Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God?”. The Lord is going to bring out something in this man’s soul. “Who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him?”. He is ready for Him, and the Lord says, “Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage”. That is the idea, and the narrative goes on with that individual person who accepts or confesses that Jesus is the Son of God. We go on to the idea of life in Lazarus, a man actually raised by the power of life, by the Son of God. Well, you see how this develops and how it stands, so that we look for men like that in each other. Is there anything like that in us? It is the Son of God, not what He did for man, but believing on the Son of God. Are you ready for such a point as that? How far-reaching and important it is, because it enters into the coming world. It is the Son of God that is establishing that world and this man is a witness. So [p. 232] that the idea of sheep is developed in the next chapter and then Lazarus is raised, and chapter 12 completes the subject of eternal life. That commandment is made true in the Son of God: “He is the true God and eternal life”. The teaching of those chapters sets out the order for us and this apostolic epistle confirms what John wrote. “These are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name”. The testimony is in His name, the Son of God Himself a witness to the power of God.
T S. Does the matter of the three young men in Daniel go as far in connection with what Nebuchadnezzar saw as to the fourth, the Son of God?
JT Quite so. That is remarkable although it is a plural idea. It indicates what God is stressing there in that man.
TS I was just wondering if you would attach a great deal of importance to the matter of witness, not merely in words, but this thing comes to light in the witness of the Son of God.
JT That is right.