HEAVEN'S VIEW OF CITIES AND LOCALITIES
HEAVEN’S VIEW OF CITIES AND LOCALITIES
John 3: 1 - 21; John 4:15 - 24; John 4:39 - 42
JT It is hoped that something may come before us for profit as to John, especially the family of God, as calling for concern for each other; all is in mind in the assembly, which God has designed to work out His thoughts of love; that is, in effect, that we should seek each other’s good and promote love amongst ourselves, and promote what would be a means under God’s hand for working out His thoughts. That is the order of the assembly, because God has not given up any thought of His since Pentecost, and the assembly was designed to afford Him a means to work out His thoughts. His thoughts have a wide bearing leading up to eternity. John has this in mind peculiarly; he speaks of the work of Christ and the things which He did. “If they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written”, John 21: 25.
The book of Genesis contemplates the idea of humanity, the human race, and we can never but be affected as we think of the violence in the early days of the race, the recourse to murder, Cain working from the enemy’s side to defeat God’s thoughts in love. It is distressing to think of the recourse to violence, the very opposite to love, in the early chapters of Genesis, and the question is now how the wisdom of God can be worked out in the remaining days of the assembly’s sojourn on earth. These things are being worked out in the assembly.
These chapters in John, beginning at the third, afford basic principles and facts for the working out of divine thoughts, and the question of new birth has to be faced and understood. It is a common subject perhaps, but may be required now among the brethren,
[p. 433] the working out of the new birth, not a question of “a man” (as the Authorised Version puts it), but of “any one” being born again, without which “he cannot see the kingdom of God”; and again, “Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”. It is not a question of a man, but of any one. Much is made of persons in John, especially in the early chapters. Man is covered under that head, not one particular person; that is not some personality in our localities, but “any one”, any person or persons in the locality who can work out the truth; therefore it says, “Except any one be born anew ...”. So that we must give up any thought of individuality we may have, and come to the thought of ‘one’; that is, God must have His way in working out His thoughts, and we have to see that He will have all to come under His sway in love. John is very wide, and we can only get initial thoughts here, in this chapter.
Ques. It is family love?
JT Exactly that, and how it must be worked out.
Ques Not special ones, but the family?
JT In the family certain ones are mentioned at the outset, but new birth makes allowance for the sovereignty of God.
RRT Does “born anew” have in mind the basic material that God will use in the assembly?
JT Yes, we must begin there; the Lord says, “Except any one be born anew”, and again, “Except any one be born of water and of Spirit”, and the individual distinction is not made much of, but it is a question of the Spirit, of God’s rights in human beings. There are persons of great distinction in John’s writings, but when it comes to the operations or service of God, it is in human beings, as with Adam and Eve we have the idea of God beginning with a family with a view to increase.
[p. 434] Rem Nothing else could have given God His way so completely as this idea of being born anew.
JT It seems so. The family setting had been damaged through failure in man’s hands, and so He comes back to this thought in the third chapter, where it is a question of persons, but God ever reserves to Himself His sovereign rights; “any one”, it is what God may do. The Lord “knew all men, and that he had not need that any should testify of man, for himself knew what was in man”, John 2: 24, 25. So that what was there was well known to God and to Christ, and hence we have this great subject in chapter 3.
Ques Is the failure in man involved in the expression, “Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!”?
JT Yes; things are knowable. There has been wonderful teaching continuously since the great revival in which we have part, but especially requiring that we may be governed by right principles. So the distinction of being born of God is the greatest, and any other distinction that may have attached to us is set aside. That is where the distinction lies for the children of God, as it says, “See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God”, 1 John 3: 1.
Ques Does the coming of Christ bring things to light?
JT That will come out as we proceed, how the Lord took up the matter. “But there was a man from among the Pharisees”; he was to be noted; the Lord takes him on, and raises the question of birth, not only of new birth, but the fact that it is stated, “who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh’s will, nor of man’s will, but of God”, John 1: 13.
Ques Is the Lord taking us back to our fundamentals?
JT Yes; we have to begin at the beginning, [p. 435] the foundation; it is a wide field, and the Lord may help us on that line.
Ques Is the bearing of being born anew to bring down all that is connected with the old and bring us to the assembly?
JT Just so; there is so much in man’s mind as to himself and his history and what he is doing, and we can soon find out about him; but then we have to make way for God. Man is always ready to bring in something of himself and what he is doing, but there is very little in his mind as to God. He has His thoughts, and men may listen to us if we have anything to say as to Him; we must be patient and seek opportunity to bring something in as to the assembly, His great vessel of operations, and what affects any locality we may be dealing with. A good many of us have been in the South and have seen what God has been doing, and seen too the need of correction, that the divine mind may have full play, whether in the North or the South. God has put that in our minds, and therefore we should give the assembly its full place in our localities, so that we may use it, for it is His full thought.
Ques Will you enlarge on that?
JT Well, in San Francisco we have to see that the assembly is available for the divine thoughts, and if some have not been included, well, let them in, so that they may have the full benefit of His thoughts.
Ques What do you mean as to letting them in? Are you thinking of this area with separate meetings? Can they be looked at as a ‘city’?
JT You know the history of Australia as well as I do, and how ‘cities’ have been formed. There are many meetings in Sydney, all working together profitably, and there is a measure of order, and a readiness to take in what is given, and they can serve God profitably. There was a time when it was not so. Paramatta was left out, but is now included in Sydney.
[p. 436] The same applies in many places in Australia and New Zealand, so that God’s thoughts may work out. The same applies in America.
Ques Is it a question whether God’s thoughts can be worked out better in a family spirit?
JT Yes, and there would be more for God if more room were made for what there is. If it is legal and right, why not make way for it, so that we can have the benefits of each other?
Rem Peter said in Acts 10: 14, “In no wise, Lord”, but then it was God’s thought.
JT So the Lord says to him in Matthew 16: 23, “Thy mind is not on the things that are of God, but on the things that are of men”.
Ques Are we weak on the basic thoughts?
JT The question is whether it is weakness. Any weakness could be corrected, but is it weakness? Or do the facts show that there should be more opportunity for persons to be functioning in any way?
Rem Nicodemus was slow to see; he says, “How can these things be?”.
JT The Lord corrected him. “But there was a man ... he came to him by night”; he was not afraid to go the full way with his thoughts.
Ques Is it a question of light all the time? John has that always in mind.
JT Yes.
Ques What did you mean as to its being legal?
JT Well, it means ‘right’. The human mind is capable of taking in certain things, and what we are trying to get at is a matter of righteousness. It is what came out in Noah; it was not late in coming out, but early; and we should see if anything is out of joint, that we are not too late in the correction.
Rem There is not a long time left in this [p. 437] dispensation.
JT It is not long as I see it. Many are getting old, and it points to the shortness of the time, and challenges us to be making the most of it.
Rem It is urgent if it affects the assembly.
JT I know of no place so much as Sydney. I have watched it, been in it, and I know what has happened there, and I know that certain localities had been kept out. The same applies to Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth and Auckland.
Rem It is a question whether the brethren can therefore deal with longstanding matters, in which they have hitherto been powerless.
JT Good. And the longstanding matters being dealt with because matters can be dealt with locally; and if it can be carried out in one part, we can get the gain of it and work it out here.
Ques Is the principle seen in Andrew? “He first finds his own brother Simon”, John 1: 41. Is it the principle of addition?
JT It is a question of finding. Nathanael also is amenable to help.
Rem The family idea is inclusive; we are not to withdraw and hold back.
JT Yes, we are to include all that is of God.
Ques Your thought is that those who are on the other side of the Bay should be in San Francisco?
JT It is a matter for you to work out. It is a question of finding the general principle, and the brethren here falling in with it. It is a question of being amenable; let love be the prime thought; “By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves”, John 13: 35. Otherwise we are not known as Christ’s disciples. We have had to take matters up in New York, in so far as the different boroughs are concerned. The city stands on the principle of five boroughs, of which Brooklyn is one, and it has worked very well for us. For Brooklyn to work with Manhattan and Staten [p. 438] Island as far as I remember there have been no difficulties; there were at first, but they all vanished as we saw the gain of it.
Rem You put the assembly above municipalities and such things.
JT Yes, I think so. It works so in Barnet and New Barnet, in England; they work together; they took counsel and they are working together profitably. New Barnet was the original meeting.
Rem And so in San Francisco, which was the first meeting, like New Barnet.
JT As far as I know J.N.D. went to Australia by sailing-boat, and worked in Sydney, Melbourne and elsewhere, and also in New Zealand; as far as I know they are going on very happily and profitably. The only difficulty is Sydney, because they are so many.
Rem In the assembly God is working out His greatest thoughts.
JT It is a very agreeable thing to God, and pleasing to Him to find it is in our minds.
Rem The principles of the assembly transcend all natural boundaries.
JT That could be applied to London.
Rem I was trying to bring in what is in Mr. ——’s mind, and that we might all get help as to it. The question is as to whether the saints are bound to follow certain municipal boundaries and names of places, or to follow the higher viewpoint that has been indicated.
JT I have no hesitation in saying that.
RRT In Sydney do they not recognise certain boundaries, and in London the same? For this reason because of the actual boundary, Beecroft is excluded from Sydney.
JT That is so.
RRT The principle on which they came together is the reckoning of the boundary that the government [p. 439] laid out for Sydney, so that Beecroft is just outside, and therefore not reckoned in the city.
JT That is so, but in that area there is Paramatta which has all the municipal equipment of mayor and corporation, and in Oakland there are several cities, and the question is whether Berkeley, Oakland and San Francisco should not be as one, and anything beyond that should not come into that consideration.
RRT The government in Australia laid out the boundary in Sydney (likewise in Auckland) and the government inscribed Sydney and excluded Beecroft, and if we could find out what is the same here, all the brethren would see it. Has the government labelled any specific part and called it San Francisco? Paramatta is included in the city of Sydney by the government and if there is anything like that here, all will bow to it.
Ques Is the boundary the only consideration?
JT No, it never was.
Ques Do the brethren set the boundaries?
JT No; it is a question of God’s work, and what it is now.
Rem Port Adelaide is included in the assembly of Adelaide, but it is not part of the city government’s administration.
Ques Does the question of growth have anything to do with it?
JT We must include it; it is a question of what God is doing.
Rem The remark as to Adelaide is good, and helps.
Ques In the matter of Sydney, why is Beecroft excluded?
JT I cannot say; they may come to it†. Paramatta was out till quite lately.
Ques Does any central governmental authority enter into this?
†Beecroft now works in with [p. 440] Sydney.
JT Not unless it is very definite. But we are dealing with the work of God, and how it serves His purposes.
Rem In Acts 13: 1 it refers to “the assembly which was there” at Antioch; would there be a distinction between the actual city, and God’s work there?
JT Take Detroit; the meeting was long inside, by itself. But now the whole city of Detroit functions assembly-wise; they are taken into it and used, and the same is the case in Winnipeg. The question is, Are the brethren usable? They should support one another.
Ques Is the work of God the whole point? Take Corinth, “the assembly of God which is in Corinth”,
1 Corinthians 1: 2. Is there anything in Corinth as a city apart from the assembly of God there?
JT The Lord said to Paul, “I have much people in this city”, Acts 18: 10. Corinth was about seven miles from the nearest town, Cenchrea, and the Lord had Corinth in mind when He said that He should have an assembly there, and the whole city was in mind as being one assembly. As far as I know Cenchrea was not included.
Rem In these days things are complicated in the world, but the assembly is the place where they should be worked out.
JT God is very liberal. He knows the difficulties, and He says, I will support you; I will help My people.
Rem The boundary thought would be easily resolved if we included the family idea, the idea of love.
JT That is a good way to put it; to include certain ones and certain areas. God will support that; He is very patient.
Ques Must there not be a legal basis to call it a city as in Sydney? Must we not have a right [p. 441] basis?
JT A considerable correspondence has arisen on this matter. I think Berkeley could easily be included.
Ques 1 Chronicles 7: 28 refers to “Bethel and its dependent villages”.
JT That is a good thing to bring up. Villages are dependent on the main cities.
Ques Would industrial matters and occupations enter into it?
JT Cities were very small then as compared with what they are now. Whatever is conducive to fellowship is to be made way for, to work out love.
Rem That should be the great basis.
JT Yes, if there is that to use that is available, then let it be used!
Ques Does the ministry work downwards from the top, from what God would do, and then down to the boundaries; not to start with the boundaries and work up?
JT You mean to work from God downwards. Yes, it is like Peter’s sheet coming down out of heaven in Acts 10: 11.
Rem “What God has cleansed” would involve being “born anew” in John 3.
JT It does appear that we are not to call the work of God ‘common’.
Rem “A certain vessel descending, as a great sheet” would be God’s thought.
JT There is complete identification with what is of God; it is brought down and will go through to eternity, and what love says is convenient and right, and God will help.
Rem The meeting began in San Francisco.
JT Yes, I have no doubt as to that. It has gone through many vicissitudes, but now there is a meeting in Berkeley and Oakland, as well as San Francisco itself.
Rem They already have a combined reading in the area.
[p. 442] Rem Would it work administratively?
J.T. Why not?
Rem In the next chapter, John 4, the woman goes to the men of the city, as if she was claiming the men for the Lord.
JT It reads, verse 39, “But many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him because of the word of the woman who bore witness, He told me all things that I had ever done. When therefore the Samaritans came to him they asked him to abide with them, and he abode there two days. And more a great deal believed on account of his word; and they said to the woman, It is no longer on account of thy saying that we believe, for we have heard him ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Saviour of the world”. The Lord is known as the “Saviour of the world”, not because of what the woman said, but because they had themselves come in contact with the Saviour, and maybe that is what we need, and not to leave any of them out!
Ques Would Nicodemus be one who “comes to the light” (verse 21)?
JT It says, “He that practises the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they have been wrought in God”. We cannot ignore what is “wrought in God”. Then we have later in verse 35, “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand”. That is the Father and the Son working together, so that the saints are in His hands. He would place them where they are most usable.
Rem So that God would set the boundaries for us as He set “the boundaries of their dwelling” in Acts 17: 26.
JT Quite so, and let the saints see how it is workable.
Rem So the children of Israel lived within their boundaries in separation from the nations.
[p. 443] JT Just so. The saints must be taken account of, or the enemy will take account of them.
Ques What does the “sheet” imply in Acts 10?
JT It was “bound by the four corners” so that it should not give way, and if we can use the saints that way, let us bring them all in.
Ques. Is it flexible?
JT We are not to use that word too freely; it is a sheet and it is workable according to the divine mind.
Rem ‘Latitude’ is perhaps a better word; ‘flexible’ might intrude on divine principles.
JT It might be that God is saying, Let us have as many as possible of the saints together to work out My principles.
RRT Yes, and within certain cities, as at Thessalonica, because they were of that city. “The assembly of Thessalonians” (1 Thessalonians 1: 1), as also “The saints and faithful in Christ Jesus who are at Ephesus”, Ephesians 1: 1. They were of that city also, and are we today doing the same?
JT Yes; but do not shut the saints out of it, and make everything of the governmental side, as men speak. We must think of heaven and the sheet of Acts 10, “descending”, and going back where it came from.
Ques Would God differentiate between a great city like Corinth, and Cenchrea?
JT We have to work it out on the principle of facts; we need to be informed as to them.
Rem Men of the world speak in Oakland or Berkeley of ‘going down to the city’, meaning to San Francisco.
Rem What we have had tonight helps as to it from God’s side.
JT That is the point.
Ques Is the right viewpoint that it is lawful to bring others in on the principle of love and not to exclude any?
JT The word ‘lawful’ is good, because the mind takes it in readily. God is saying to us that He has property here. What governs the world does not simply apply as governing the assembly, which is a thing by itself; it comes down from heaven; we have to see how it works.
Rem It was not long since one nation was fighting against another, but the assembly is one. It did not matter what the nations were doing.
JT Just so. We have gone on with assembly things through two great wars!
Ques Should we speak of the ‘Bay Area’?
JT I do not know what that expression means!
Rem All the cities under the census are called ‘San Francisco’; and the same is true of the industrial areas.
JT We go above, that is to heaven, and see what God thinks. He is going to use the assembly, and it is a question of how He can use it now.
Ques So is it to be above all things here?
JT Yes.
Ques Do we not need to be engaged with heavenly things and not so much with those of the earth?
JT “God, having foreseen some better thing for us” (Hebrews 11: 40); that is above the political situation!