THE ASSEMBLY AS SEEN IN THE REVELATION (4)

^[p. 104] THE ASSEMBLY AS SEEN IN THE REVELATION (4)

Revelation 19: 6 - 9; Revelation 21:1 - 3

JT It is thought that we should finish today with these closing chapters, 19, 21 and 22, so as to see the assembly as it shall be. These passages that we have read belong to “the things that are about to be after” what we have been considering, the third phase of the book as the Lord divided it in chapter 1: 19 “What thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these”. The assembly is, of course, the same, whether in the early or the closing chapters of the book, only that it is the heavenly side in these latter chapters. The first passage read involves more the moral side of the assembly; it records what has been, that is, the righteousnesses of the saints. These are in mind as seen here: the clothing in which the Lamb’s wife is arrayed. But in order to have a clear view we should perhaps look a little at the earlier part of the chapter which tells of the judgment of the corrupted professing system. We noted earlier that, in chapter 2, “the woman Jezebel” may be rendered, ‘the wife Jezebel’, involving a household situation; whereas the view we get of her in the end of the book, in chapters 17, 18 and the early verses of 19, involves more what is political, the idea of her relation with the responsible element. It is said in chapter 16: “And the great city was divided into three parts; and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon was remembered before God to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath”.

Then chapter 17 says, “And one of the seven angels, which had the seven bowls, came and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the ^[p. 105] sentence of the great harlot who sits upon the many waters; with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication; and they that dwell on the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication”. So we have there the description of her in political relations. The passage goes on, “And he carried me away in spirit to a desert; and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and had ornaments of gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and the unclean things of her fornication; and upon her forehead a name written, Mystery, great Babylon, the mother of the harlots, and of the abominations of the earth. And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I wondered, seeing her, with great wonder. And the angel said to me, Why hast thou wondered? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast which carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction: and they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life, shall wonder, seeing the beast, that it was, and is not, and shall be present. Here is the mind that has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains, whereon the woman sits. And there are seven kings five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes he must remain only a little while. And the beast that was and is not, he also is an eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into destruction. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have not yet received a kingdom, but receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their power and authority to the beast”.

Then verses 15 to 18 say, “And he says to me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her with fire; for God has given to their hearts to do his mind, and to act with one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is the great city, which has kingship over the kings of the earth”. Then chapter 18 is her destruction and the beginning of chapter 19 is the celebration of the event “After these things I heard as a loud voice of a great multitude in the heaven, saying, Hallelujah: the salvation and the glory and the power of our God for true and righteous are his judgments; for he has judged the great harlot which corrupted the earth with her fornication, and has avenged the blood of his bondmen at her hand. And a second time they said, Hallelujah. And her smoke goes up to the ages of ages. And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and did homage to God who sits upon the throne, saying, Amen, Hallelujah. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his bondmen, and ye that fear him, small and great”. I thought we should have these facts before us, dear brethren, in considering the assembly in its heavenly relations, and how the wisdom of God and the righteousness of God require that the false assembly or church should be destroyed, and destroyed in such a way that the bearing of her destruction is eternal; it goes on for ever and ever.

CHH Is it instructive that the first exposure of Babylon and the announcement of its fall occurs in chapter 14 immediately after the securing of the one hundred and forty-four thousand?

JT Just so, that is important too.

They would ^[p. 107] represent a company on earth in the millennium, the Jewish position indeed; so that the bearing of her destruction is seen in relation to them too. We ought to become accustomed to the divine system. “God has judged your judgment upon her”, we are told in chapter 18, it is the judgment of the brethren. We ought to have a right estimate of that system, its antiquity and its character and relations down the ages, and how heaven has taken account of it as its sins are mounting up to heaven.

Rem In view of the evidence of this great system in this city where we are meeting, we are clear in our minds as to God’s judgment and our judgment upon it. We see what God’s thought of it all is and we are restful and content that it will all be brought down in time.

JT The grandeur of it comes out in detail, and the wealth of it, and then the description of its destruction. Chapter 17 brings out its political setting, how it has grasped after a universal status and yet in spite of itself it has to be local. It cannot afford to spread itself out: as to its essential existence it has to be local. So it is shrouded with darkness to conceal the wickedness.

RWS Does Babylon primarily allude to a certain system, or to the christian profession?

JT Well, it says “the mother”, she is “the mother of the harlots”. I think it would mean that the whole christian profession as corrupted is in mind, and the whole system is corrupted now.

RWS Is it just the Romish system or would it embrace Protestantism, as we had yesterday in Sardis?

JT I would think that the expression, “the mother of the harlots, and of the abominations of the earth”, includes the whole profession as corrupted. What we had as to the dispensation of the Spirit bears on all that, that we must refuse all that belongs to ^[p. 108] this system and maintain what belongs to the realm of the Spirit. If the Spirit’s dispensation is to be maintained, that system has to be judged, and we have to learn to regard it as an eternal judgment: not simply in time, but an eternal matter because it says that “her smoke goes up to the ages of ages”, as if God is telling us how to judge sin and how He judges sin; how the lake of fire stands in relation to His judgment. That is, the judgment of God about certain persons and things is eternal. There are judgments that are local in time and place, but there are also judgments that are eternal.

HH Babylon in Nebuchadnezzar’s day was imperial, and yet in the ways of God it was allowed to capture Judah. Would you say a word as to the military side and the capturing of the people of God?

JT Well, that is what happened historically. Babylon captured what God had as it were publicly, so that the movement as Christ came into the world was to deliver from that. What we are dealing with now is future yet, but the deliverance from it in a moral sense is in christianity.

HH “Come out of her, my people” would apply to the present time.

JT It would. Joshua would have that in mind too; the garment taken by Achan was Babylonish, it refers to christendom in antitype.

CHH Would it have its root in Nimrod in Genesis 10?

JT Quite so. He, however, was from Ham. The beginning of his kingdom was Babel, which is confusion; that is the beginning of Babylon and it has come down to us in the moral sense in christendom. The world has taken that form, the Babylonish garment alludes to it, and the wickedness of anyone wishing to have it. These chapters refer to what is yet future in her history-Babylon in its coming, future character again taking on ^[p. 109] the political.

AAT To whom do the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures refer? They seem to be in accord with God.

JT Well, they come down through the course of time. They are all a part of what we are saying. They are not simply christianity, the twenty-four elders include a previous dispensation. They refer to eldership, that is, experience with God. God’s mind was understood, for instance, by Abraham of whom God said, “I know him that he will command his children and his household after him ... to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him”. That is the principle of the twenty-four. As to actual number, they refer to the regularity of David’s kingdom in view of Solomon, and they culminate here. They run through these chapters as sympathetic with God in His government of the world from the very beginning; because the twenty-four extend back to the beginning of God’s government and come down to christianity and to this position. So God has had sympathy from the beginning. There have been experienced persons with Him throughout and they celebrate here. It says in verse 4, “And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and did homage to God who sits upon the throne”. The throne would refer to God’s government: the thing itself is essentially in this matter. The bearing of it runs on; it is eternal. We are now coming to have the mind of God in judgment, the eternal bearing of His judgment.

AB Is there any import in the order here in relation to the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures? In the early chapters, from chapter 4 onward, the living creatures take the precedence, but here it is taken by the twenty-four elders.

JT I suppose the living creatures represent God’s testimony in the creation, what He has in the creation.

^[p. 110] The twenty-four elders refer to what He has in experience, companionship with Himself; so the precedence of the living creatures would mean that they are properly subordinate to the elders but the elders wait until they make a move. In chapter 4 it says, “And the four living creatures, each one of them having respectively six wings; round and within they are full of eyes; and they cease not day and night saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come. And when the living creatures shall give glory and honour and thanksgiving to him that sits upon the throne, who lives to the ages of ages, the twenty-four elders shall fall before him that sits upon the throne, and do homage to him that lives to the ages of ages; and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honour and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were, and they have been created”. That is, the elders have precedence because they have intelligence as being with God and coming down, as it were, through David; representing the best of the old dispensation. They include this dispensation too. So that when the living creatures give glory and thanksgiving, it is said the twenty-four elders shall fall before Him. They act consequent upon the action of the living creatures, as if to give fulness to what they do. There is, therefore, in the ways of God the principle of grade throughout, and the twenty-four elders represent the most exalted grade in the sense of intelligence in the government of God.

CHH That would be marked by the way they speak with feeling: “O our Lord and our God”.

HH It says, “In the midst of the throne, and around the throne, four living creatures”, Revelation 4: 6. That is not said of the elders, is it?

JT No; the elders are seen in verse 4. First it ^[p. 111] speaks of the One who is on the throne and then that around the throne there are “twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones twenty-four elders sitting, clothed with white garments; and on their heads golden crowns”, meaning that they are intelligent in their position in the government of God. Then in verse 6, “And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, four living creatures, full of eyes, before and behind”. So that they are in a sort of subordinate position, whereas the twenty-four elders are supreme in relation to God, the Supreme. So we have in the general ordering, culminating here in their presence in this celebration, supreme intelligence in relation to God in His government, and then the living creatures representing the energy of life that is in God’s creation.

RH Have you in mind that generally the more spiritual part of the service of God should be taken on by those with experience?

JT That seems to be the position in the introduction here in this remarkable way in chapter 4. The matter comes down through David, because the reference really is to David’s regime in the great stress on the number twenty-four and the different offices and functions mentioned. It would seem as if David’s part in this last book of the Bible, as we call it, is to stress excellence and grade. The word ‘grade’ is a good one, I think, in the government and ways of God, and the elders represent the highest grade. The book of Psalms should be connected with the Pentateuch, which is the historical working out of the creation, and of the position of Israel in the government of God. The nations were all arranged in relation to Israel; they were bound to stand in relation to Israel; and David comes in in that setting in the book of Psalms, which expresses the highest order of intelligence and feeling and spirituality in the Old Testament. The highest order of intelligence in all the dispensations is represented there, of course involving experience ^[p. 112] with God, because the Psalms are expressions of experience with God. Hence I would think that David’s part in this book is to convey supreme excellence and special experience with God; as though the wealth that He has coming down with Him through the ages is now enthroned and crowned in relation to Him-because it is God’s throne; that is in mind in chapter 4, and it is God that is celebrated here. Then again we have in verse 6 of the passage we read, “I heard as a voice ... saying, Hallelujah”; so that God is in view here and then the Lamb.

RH Would you say a word as to the thought of worshipping God? I feel very defective in the matter. We seem to have much more liberty in relation to the Father.

JT Well, clearly the idea of God is stressed in this book, especially here; and so it is said in the last chapter, “And I, John, was he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to do homage before the feet of the angel who shewed me these things. And he says to me, See thou do it not. I am thy fellow-bondman, and the fellow-bondman of thy brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Do homage to God”, Revelation 22: 8, 9. That is a leading thought and it must point to the great ultimate in the ways of God, that God may be all in all. God is the great end, and ought to be the great end in our services now.

RH Does it go beyond what is historical? In chapter 19 the phrase “Our God” is in relation to the judgment, is it not? Have you in mind that chapter 22 would go further?

JT Well, I think the whole book places God before us, that is, God in His essential being, as He “who is”. God in His essential being is in the mind of the Spirit throughout the whole book. We have the historical side in chapter 4 where, you will notice,

the living creatures say, “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come”. “Who was”, that is historical, and then “Who is”; that is, the historical is put before the essential thought, whereas in chapter 1: 8 the order is reversed. There it says, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty”. That is the Spirit’s way, you might say, of placing the Deity in this book. He is first seen, in chapter 1, in what He is essentially “Who is”. But the living creatures, who have come into things in creation, recognise the historical God first; that is, the Creator God is historical. He is known historically, and as I understand it, they celebrate Him in this way in chapter 4. They say, “Who was, and who is, and who is to come”. “Who was” is the historical God; that is a somewhat lower thought of course, but it has the first place there because the God of history is much better known than the God of eternity, of whom it is said: “From eternity to eternity thou art God”. That is, He is better known in what He is and where He is operating in the dip down into time than in eternity. Still, “He is”, and when we come to Moses we have that abstract idea. We have it for the first time in Exodus 15 where “Jah” is used, the title, according to those who should know, that refers to God in the abstract, less known obviously than the historical God. Still, the more spiritual we are the more we shall value God in the abstract.

HH In this connection there are three designations of God that come into one’s mind: “The Alpha and the Omega”, “The beginning and the end”, and “The first and the last”. They are very striking expressions, and I thought that perhaps they are shared by more than one divine Person. Is there not a very plain relation or connection between God and the Lord Jesus as presented in the ^[p. 114] Revelation?

JT Quite. John has a way of linking them together without making it formal at times. Therefore “He who is” would at times refer to Jesus: the Deity is there.

Ques Does all this enhance the thought we had in the first reading, of one, two, three? Does that come into this also-”Who is, and who was, and who is to come”?

JT Very good. As to these three distinctions that have been pointed out: the Alpha and the Omega would allude to the speaking, which came out, of course, in Christ, because He is the Word, the Logos; still, God is in it too, He speaks; He must have the first and the last word. Then “The first and the last” would mean the Deity personally; the Deity must be first and must be last.

HH In regard to “the beginning and the end” it is said in Genesis 1, “In the beginning”, and in 1 Corinthians 15, “That God may be all in all”. That is the end, is it not?

JT Just so. “Then cometh the end”: God must be that end, and He must be the beginning too,

RH When addressing God in this setting, have you in mind the three Persons?

JT I would never think of addressing the three Persons at one time.

RH Is that not in mind in the exhortation, “Do homage to God”? Would that not involve the three Persons of the Deity?

JT Well, it is always in the singular when you have to do with God. When the three Persons are seen they are viewed as in the economy, not involving absolute equality. Baptism is “to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. The Father must be first, before the other two Persons in what we commonly call the economy: “To us there is one God, the Father, ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ”. That is the mediatorial position. When we ^[p. 115] have to speak to divine Persons it is all on the mediatorial ground, and that implies that They are not seen as equal. We know They are equal; John’s gospel, which stresses the idea of the mediatorial economy, makes it plain that the Son is equal with the Father and that we must honour the Son as we honour the Father; but nevertheless, in addressing the Deity, that is the Persons, it is as turning to one of Them and addressing Him by the title by which He is set before us in the economy. I doubt whether the Spirit contemplates that as creatures we are equal to addressing the three Persons at one time, because it says that “To us there is one God, the Father”. So that if you wish to speak to the Father, you address God as such; if you wish to speak to the Son, you speak to Him as such; or you have the Spirit in mind as such. The economy is intended for us, to make God available to us; so that we shall be intelligent in what we are saying and doing.

CHH Would the highest form of worship include two Persons? “For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”, Ephesians 2: 18.

JT That is the economy; but the Father is the end; either the Father or God: but God is the great ultimate in all that we do or say.

SJH Would that be higher than Revelation 5, where it says they did homage “To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb”?

JT Well, of course that would be to One at a time. You speak to One at a time. Therefore our hymns are somewhat difficult when they are mixed as to that.

CHH “Endless praise and adoration, To the Father and the Son”-that would hardly be in order, would it?

JT Hardly. It has become a doxology through usage of the brethren. It was never intended to be ^[p. 116] sung to close the meeting when the service of God is before us; we are to go out on the highest level. But the dear brethren will understand that we are on a subject that is the supreme of all subjects, and we cannot hope to deal with it now beyond what we have said. We cannot afford to spend the whole hour on it, although it is worthy of it. But to come to the position of the assembly as we are considering it in this reading: this passage in chapter 19 is where we find it properly introduced again after chapter 3. Before it is introduced we have the other person, the wicked wife, not only set aside but destroyed. The true wife is not even introduced until the false one is destroyed, and that in an eternal sense; understood to be destroyed eternally. I think it is intended, brethren, that we should know that. The twenty-four elders would know it.

WWM Would it be right to apply this judgment to any imitation of what is real, so that we might be kept constantly in self-judgment lest we become religious without vitality?

JT Very good; religious without vitality, that is Sardis. She had a name to live and was dead. But now we are in the presence of the wife, the Lamb’s wife. She is introduced here, but not before we have this wonderful celebration of the destruction of this thing that has been a blot really on the creation. The whole history of God’s testimony has been, as it were, affected by this monstrosity, by its antiquity and its learning and its greatness according to man; all that the world is finds a place there in opposition to God, organised opposition to God, so that before He introduces the true wife He gives us the judgment of this system and the celebration of that judgment. There is nothing else that affords so much occasion of celebration as this happening: there is again the second time, “Hallelujah”. It is an addition to what might be ordinarily, it is greater than anything that ^[p. 117] has been, so that it is celebrated the second time with “Hallelujah”.

WFK Does the appellation, “the Lamb’s wife”, suggest that she has passed through reproach and suffering?

JT It would have in mind that she is in accord with the Lamb’s position, which is that of suffering. She is not yet introduced as heavenly, although historically she has already been translated to heaven according to chapter 19, but in chapter 21 we have the heavenly side; she is coming down from heaven.

WFK She has “made herself ready”; what would that imply?

JT She is fitted in that way. She knows what she is doing, she knows she has come to the time of this event; she knows how to provide her glorious attire and what it should be. It is not her own choosing, it is granted that she should wear this attire; she is allowed to wear it.

SJH You were saying that Satan is cast out of heaven before the saints go up. Is this something similar, that the ground is absolutely clear of this false wife?

JT That is right. Chapter 12 shows that heaven is cleared through war; whatever adverse thing there is in heaven is dealt with. But the false wife is never seen as there, only there is an analogy. The angels of the devil were there, and although she was not there, she was affected by what was in heaven. The earth is cleared of her too before the Lamb’s wife is brought in.

HH Would not true assembly features show themselves now as the false system is judged in our souls and in our associations?

JT That is the idea I am sure, as we were saying at the beginning. The parting of the ways means that everyone that names the name of the Lord withdraws from iniquity. We judge it and leave it. It is ^[p. 118] no use saying we judge it unless we leave it; it is in the leaving of the thing that we show we judge it; and in doing that according to 2 Timothy we come back to the pristine position of the assembly where we can carry on the service of God.

HH One feels it is very important as we near the end that there should be no halting between two opinions.

JT That is right. If we are to have part in the divine service, as indeed we have through grace, it must not only be that God has judged our judgment upon the system that is, that we have judged it in our minds as a judge would do, but we must abandon the thing, leave it definitely. So that the exhortation to “Come out of her, my people, that ye have not fellowship in her sins”, really enters into our separation as in 2 Timothy.

Ques Does that all link on with the nuptial garments here, the righteousnesses of the saints? The note says that they are not imputed righteousnesses here, they are actual.

JT Just so. “The righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit”, Romans 8: 4. It is not simply what our judgment is, but our walk and ways; that is all implied in the garments she is to wear. But the Lord would help us now to think of this great personage as realising in some little way by the Spirit that we are really part of it ourselves, and already, as it were, providing the material for the final nuptials. Psalm 45 says, “All glorious is the king’s daughter within; her clothing is of wrought gold”, according to the footnote, “within” is ‘in the royal apartments’. That is the idea. It is what is being wrought out day by day and minute by minute, that is what is going to come out presently in display. She is allowed to use this material for the great display on the marriage occasion, the righteousnesses of the ^[p. 119] saints, the fine linen, said to be bright and pure. “It was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints”.

RWS It seems a greater thing to rejoice over the marriage of the Lamb than over a negative condition when the false wife is destroyed. There ought to be some reflection of that in us now as forming part of the rejoicing and exulting.

JT Quite so. The Lord has helped us to bring the thought of the marriage into our service. Psalm 45 has been much used in that connection, and the Spirit has helped us to prolong the time allowed for occupation with the marital relations between Christ and the assembly.

SJH Why does it emphasise in verse 9 that these are the true words of God?

JT “He says to me, Write, Blessed are they who are called to the supper of the marriage of the Lamb. And he says to me, These are the true words of God”. It would look as if the idea of variety is stressed in relation to this marital matter. The direction to write is important. In some cases John is not to write, but he is to write here. It seems as if this paragraph should come into our assembly service, especially the marital side coming in after the actual partaking of the Lord’s supper.

SJH Do you think we should not hurry too much? Sometimes there has been haste in the desire to get on to the Father and to God. Should this matter be dwelt on more definitely and be quite clear in our minds before we move on in our service?

JT Quite so; and there is the word ‘write’, too. We have to compare it a little with other features in John’s writings. We get the expressions, “I write unto you, little children”, “I write unto you, young men”, and “I write unto you, fathers”: all that is our point of view, but here it is the direct word of God to John. It says, “These are the true sayings of God”, as if we ought to be very sure of what we are doing in celebrating in the Lord’s supper the marital relations between Christ and the assembly.

CHH In verse 9 where it says, “Blessed are they”, would that refer to the bride herself, or to another company?

JT I would connect it myself with us, for present purposes, according to what we are trying to stress now. It is blessed to be in this part of the service and give the Lord His place in it, in the assembly, as to what she is to Him; not that we can exactly say she is the wife, because that word is used here designedly after the profession has been destroyed, after the one who had that place outwardly is destroyed. But inasmuch as the word “wife” is used, we are entitled to bring it spiritually into the service of God. I believe the statement that “These are the true words of God” ought to have a great place in that section of the service, that is, after we partake of the emblems and come under the Lord’s influence and into the discernment of being in assembly. It is a question of what we are ourselves, the true words of God apply to us.

Ques Would that be in contrast to what is false and not true?

JT It would indeed. The whole profession has much that is not true, but we want to be sure that what we celebrate in relation to the Lord’s supper is a true matter, and that there are no additions to it either in word or in form.

HB Is it something like what Paul says, “I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you”?

JT That is good and confirms what we are saying. The apostle was confirming that it was a real thing. He did not simply carry down the thought of the Supper from the twelve, but he heard it from the ^[p. 121] Lord Himself directly; it was directly received from the Lord, so that it is Paul’s matter.

SJH We have been anxious that the Father should have His place in the service; but do you think we need to be quite sure of this marital matter being reached before we move on?

JT I have no doubt that the Spirit of God had in mind the controversy there would be over the Lord’s supper, and the terrible thing that Rome would make out of it; making it idolatrous as to the bread. Hence this phrase, that “these are the true words of God”. These words are written, so that there is no use in going back to church history; because while the early fathers will give the Romish advocates enough to support their contentions, these true words of God that have come to us in the epistle to the Corinthians are what Paul received directly from the Lord. It is not simply what he heard from the twelve, but what he received directly from the Lord.

AB Yesterday you made reference to Philadelphia in relation to the overcomer and the writing on him. Ought we to have in mind that this writing is personified, these true words of God? Is that what you have in mind?

JT Quite so; and how the letter of commendation comes into the Lord’s supper, into the new covenant. We had it yesterday and it comes home with force to one now as to the words of the apostle, “I received from the Lord”. Then the writing in the second epistle, how he speaks of his affection for the Corinthians, bringing them forward because of his love for them. Wherever he was he spoke of them. And then the Spirit of the living God had written on them; they were declared to be the epistle of Christ, making the Lord’s supper so real in word and letter.

AAT But in connection with Paul’s visit to Corinth, he delivered the truth of the Supper to them before he wrote it down: “That which also I delivered to you”, he says.

JT Well, Luther wrote down about it too. That is what one feels just now as to this terrible thing we are dealing with, that is judged; how even Luther was detained, really held in darkness, on this point of the bread. “This is my body”: he wrote that down on the table-cloth, and he never got rid of that error; whereas the Spirit of God would make us rid of all these darkening things that would come down to us. The bride never ceases to be a bride, and there is no such thing as transition or transubstantiation either. It is a memorial in a spiritual sense, and I only refer to that to show the importance of the true words of God as applying to the marital relations between Christ and the assembly.

RH Would that link on with Jethro bringing Moses’ wife to him in the wilderness and his kissing his father-in-law, the legality of the relation established?

JT Very good. In the words ‘wife’ and ‘father-in-law’ the idea would be that the thing is confirmed legally, that she is the real wife; and that comes out here. The real wife is seen in those who remember the Lord, who keep Him in their hearts. She does not forget Him, and her Husband is known in the gates. So that the whole thing, that which is called the sacrament, is stripped of all additions, inclusive of what Rome has added. We have the simple thing, the original thing, as in 1 Corinthians 11: 23, “For I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread, and having given thanks broke it, and said, This is my body, which is for you this do in remembrance of me”.

SRMcC So that the real issue is Naboth’s vineyard. Jezebel wrote in regard to that.

JT That comes into it. Jezebel dealt with that in her wicked ways. Naboth died on account of the ^[p. 123] inheritance; and what we are speaking of is really the inheritance because it is the truth of the Lord’s supper as it has come down by the Spirit of God; not by the early fathers, nor by church history, but through the word of God, using actual Scripture.

TS So in the challenge of the daughters of Jerusalem to the bride in Canticles, when they say, “What is thy beloved more than another beloved ... ?”, she is able to speak in a living way, saying, “My beloved is white and ruddy”, and so on with the description of Him.

JT She could give a true account of Him; she could tell what He looked like. That enters into what we are saying, that we have the real thing. The word ‘memorial’ enters into all that.

RWS So what the Father gets and what God gets really become contingent upon the recovery of the Lord’s supper?

JT We get on to a right basis; we are set up in transparency and the true words of God are fundamental for us. Having dwelt so long on this passage there is little time to touch on the beginning of chapter 21, where we have the assembly in relation to new creation. “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea exists no more”. This is the basis for what he is now going to say: “And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice out of the heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God”. Now we have come on to what we might call the divine service, making application to current practice amongst the brethren. We come on to God and the assembly, that holy city, new Jerusalem, comes down out of heaven from God. That is, she is ^[p. 124] already what these words express, making the application to what is current amongst us. This passage links on with chapter 19. It is the wife there, but here it is the bride coming down from God out of heaven and adorned for her husband. She is ready for the great occasion. But then immediately after we have the tabernacle of God; God has a place and He is known there.

CHH Would this furnish material for the worship of God, entering into the service?

JT Yes, it links on with what we have been saying. We have the wife, the marital side, as we partake of the emblems, and then we are ready for the tabernacle. It is the same assembly. We may speak of the brethren of the Lord, His brethren, but presently the Spirit of God is apprehended in another way. He is the Spirit of God, but He is also the Spirit of adoption, becoming in us the power of sonship, the power of it in speaking to God; and the fact that the tabernacle of God is with men fits in now. God is with us in that position in the tabernacle.

WFK Is the tabernacle system carried right through to this?

JT Yes, I think that is the thought. It is an eternal thought. Our services are rightly regarded as leading into eternity.

FKC Is that what is in mind in the end of Ephesians 3: “To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. Amen”?

JT That is right; that is what I understand. We have reached that point, and then the bearing is eternity. It is the assembly in Christ Jesus. In Christ involves the power, it is in that power. The “in” is suggestive of the power of Christ there, maintaining the position, so that God’s glory is there throughout all generations of the age of ages. It is ^[p. 125] not from age to age, it is one great thought that leads into the eternal state of things.

WFK She is no longer the Lamb’s wife; she is the holy city.

JT You get the wife again in verse 9, but it refers to millennial conditions. Here you do not get it. It is the eternal state of things that is in mind here.

HH Why have you the holy city, new Jerusalem, brought in in verse 2? What is the relation of that to what you have been saying?

JT The word ‘city’ is the system of things, involving still the mediatorial state of things, but with a capital, the holy city. It is suggestive of being the chief thought in the system. But then the question arises whether the emphasis is on the word ‘holy’ as fitting us for our entrance into eternal relations. “Be ye holy, for I am holy”, holiness must be there.

HH How far would you carry the word ‘city’ in relation to eternity?

JT I do not know that you can go very far, because it is changed here immediately to tabernacle. It is stressed in verse 10 as the capital of the millennial day but the character seems to be dropped here.

HH It is an identification, more or less?

JT Yes. The city does not stress the thought of love so much as the thought of administration; but a tabernacle is where God is near to us and we to Him.

HH Would you carry the thought of administration into eternity?

JT I do not know. There must be something. The Son Himself is to be subject there. In the universe of God there must be law, governing principles; I would say that love involves that state of things.

CHH In the light of what we have here, would you be free with a hymn such as No. 97 (Hymns and Spiritual Songs, 1932), ‘At length the state eternal’, in the worship at the end of our ^[p. 126] meeting?

JT Yes, quite so. We have not very many such. I think that as we count our hymns we shall see that we have not many that carry us through very far. J.N.D. was greatly exercised because there were so few hymns to God as the Father.

JW Does this scripture imply that we never lose the thought of the bride or wife in the eternal state?

JT I think so. It is a primary thought with God, and primary thoughts go through. They come into time and are worked out in time, but they go through.

RWS In this eternal setting allusion is made to tears and death and sorrow. Does that have a bearing on our service in the assembly now?

JT Well, that is for ourselves. In these scriptures the negatives are especially helpful. We often quote that very passage for comfort. Verse 3 says, “And I heard a loud voice out of the heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God”. It is a voice you will notice. We can work all that out in the truth of the epistles, especially in Ephesians, as to how we arrive at God in our service.

Rem There seems to be a remarkable coalescing here with the thought you were suggesting in chapter 19: “And he says to me, These are the true words of God”. Here we have at the end of verse s, “Write, for these words are true and faithful”. It is preceded by, “Behold, I make all things new”.

JT That is very interesting; so we are on sure footing right through.

HH In regard to J.N.D.’s hymns, it has been said that he put into them what apparently the brethren were not ready for at that time; most of these hymns to the Father were written when he was very near the end.

JH In regard to the expression that “the former things have passed away”, would it be permissible at this point of the service to sing, ‘O bright and blessed scenes, Where sin can never come’, or would the thought of sin be an intrusion?

JT Of course it is only spoken of negatively; that is, it involves the positive. There is no sin there, which is a comforting thing. In fact it almost fits with certain things that are said here: “He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes”; well, that suggests that there has been sin which caused the tears. “And death shall not exist any more”, that is another negative, but it is only a negative to assert a positive. “For the former things have passed away”. I think that hymn is quite in order; it is precious anyway, as confirming us, because we do not forget that we are still in the body. We are in the body in all our service, we can never assume that we are out of it. Paul says he did not know whether he was in the body or out of it, but we can never say we are out of the body.

JLP Hymn 97 (Hymns and Spiritual Songs, 1932) brings in the same thought: ‘No breath of sin to wither’.

CHH Would you say these negatives that imply a positive enhance the service?

JT Yes; the whole passage is of that character. God says, “He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son. But to the fearful and unbelieving, and sinners, and those who make themselves abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death”. So that it seems that these verses are for us at the present time as confirmatory, and comforting us in a negative way.

Ques Would it be right to say that God has ^[p. 128] reached His purpose that He had in mind at the beginning, “Let us make man in our image”?

JT Yes. God Himself is here, He is with men “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God. And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall not exist any more, nor grief, nor cry, nor distress shall exist any more, for the former things have passed away”. The whole passage is both comforting and confirmatory, although largely negative.

RWS And if we scrutinise the hymns too much, and publicly criticise the hymn a brother gives out, we may be put under bondage and really hinder the service of God.

JT Yes. So what comes in between chapter 19 and this passage involves the complete clearance of the universe from sin. The whole matter of sin is dealt with and settled in the lake of fire. The very thought of the lake of fire is admitted: they shall have their part in the lake which burns. It is the eternal judgment of sin which enters into this matter, the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is “the second death”. That hymn is quite in keeping with the language we use in the divine service, because we are still here and we value the thought of eternal judgment, that is, the final settlement of things which are causing so many tears and so much sorrow.

SJH In Isaiah 65:17 it says, “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind”; but in the last chapter (verse 24), it says, “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence unto all flesh”. That is in connection with verse 22 which says, “For as the ^[p. 129] new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me ...”.

JT Isaiah gives the application of the new heavens and the new earth to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is made a joy, showing that at the present time the things that are spoken of here are already realisable by the Spirit. We are able to speak of them as confirmatory of the situation. How sure it all is! But what comes in here in chapter 20 should be looked into to get what good we might from the introduction of the lake of fire, and of all that is said about it as basic now down here. It is basic as to the service of God that we are conscious by the Spirit that there is a final solution to all wickedness and evil. It is not simply that it is destroyed, but it is there as a testimony eternally as to what God thinks of sin, and how it is dealt with. It is limited, but it is there. There is no suggestion of the lake of fire ever terminating; it is known to be there.

SJH Why should they go and look upon it?

JT That is the prophetic way of speaking. The idea of the new heavens and the new earth is brought down to practicableness in the millennium. Jerusalem is made a joy, that is by the Spirit, and even in christianity it comes to us in the joy we have in the assembly. But all is in view of the eternal state of things when matters are settled finally.

CHH Would there be a present connection in Hebrews where it is said that we have come “to the city of the living God”?

JT That present thought applies to all these things: we have come to them really; and that only brings in again the importance of maintaining the liberty of the Spirit by which we realise these things.

Ques “The tabernacle of God is with men”: would that include God’s tabernacle with Israel as well as with the church?

JT The allusion is to that. God’s primary ^[p. 130] thought is the tabernacle, not the temple. The temple came in with David and Solomon as a matter of greatness and glory, but the primary thought was that God would be near His people and He would have them near Him. So in Exodus 24 He brought them up to the height, and they ate and drank before Him and He did not lay His hand on them, as if to say, You can be free and happy with Me, you have nothing to fear. That comes in here.

TS We spoke previously about joy and exulting; I was wondering whether what God does here would indicate something of the peculiar joy He would have in all this?

JT That is what these words imply; He is having more out of it than we are. In having His tabernacle with men His thought was to have a people near unto Him. That is in His mind now. He has them near Him eternally in the tabernacle. The tabernacle is the saints, the assembly, that in which God will dwell eternally.

CHH Would the tabernacle exclude all else but the body of Christ?

JT I would think so: “the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all”. All the operations are carried on there in the eternal state of things. “To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”.

CHH The earthly bride would have no part in that?

JT I think not. I do not know if she will continue really. Whether she will continue or whether she will merge is a matter to be understood.

RH Do we ever touch in our service a point that is beyond the mediatorial idea, or is it always through the Lord?

JT I do not think we could be with God at all except on a mediatorial basis.

C.H.H. Eternally?

JT Yes.