THE ASSEMBLY AS SEEN IN THE REVELATION (5)
[p. 131] THE ASSEMBLY AS SEEN IN THE REVELATION (5)
Revelation 21: 9 - 27; Revelation 22:1 - 5; Revelation 22:16, 17
JT We saw in our last reading that verses 6 to 9 of chapter 19 again introduce the assembly as leading us to the final state of things, and that in the subsequent part of the book we have a return to the millennial state, with administration stamped on the instruction in the record. We finished with the thought of the service of God, and the application of chapter 19 as read and chapter 21 as read to that service. That is, we linked it on with these scriptures in line with what we have observed as the Spirit’s teaching in recent times, namely that the service leads us on to the eternal state of things, ending with the tabernacle. The city is alluded to, but the finish is the tabernacle, as we should expect; that is, that God would come in finality to love conditions between Himself and His people. There will be no more sea; both nearness and movability are involved. Administration is not stressed, though the Spirit as returning to millennial conditions in verse 9 of chapter 21 has administration in mind; and we come back through that way, in chapter 22: 16, to the assemblies as we have them in the early part of the book. In that passage the Lord does not return to millennial conditions, but to present current conditions. He says, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come”. So that we finish, as we may say, with the Lord’s relations with us as we are now, seen in this message to us and the response that He looks for in us: “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come”.
Ques Do I understand that the millennial period runs collaterally with the eternal state?
JT [p. 132] I think that, as applied to the assembly, the eternal state, as we call it, begins as she is translated to heaven, and therefore runs on collaterally with the millennium on the earth. But the millennial conditions are not properly eternal, they are in relation to the earth. There are nations existing, and Israel existing as a nation in the great period of administration, the great period of rule and blessing on the earth; as if God would show what He can do with man in the flesh, Satan being limited or in prison, so that there is no incentive to sin; although sin is supposed to exist and will be dealt with. Chapter 20 deals with that. So that the eternal state of things begins for us as we are translated, and that is contemplated in chapter 19.
HH Would there also be the work of the Spirit on the line of new creation now?
JT Quite so, it is going on now, as Paul says, “So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”, 2 Corinthians 5: 17. That is the principle of our dispensation, at least one of the principles. It is in view of eternity, in view of eternal conditions which may take place at any time. It is no earthly matter, it is a heavenly matter, a heavenly movement to take the saints up where eternal conditions will at once begin. Chapter 19 contemplates the first transaction and our being translated.
RWS The great purge of chapter 19 immediately precedes the millennium.
JT You mean the Lord’s incoming militarily in chapter 19? Quite so. He is seen coming out “And I saw the heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and one sitting on it, called Faithful [p. 139] and True, and he judges and makes war in righteousness. And his eyes are a flame of fire”. That chapter ends with the destruction of the beast and the false prophet. That clearly is pre-millennial, but introduces millennial conditions. Then chapter 20 gives us what takes [p. 133] place as the angel descends from heaven and binds Satan, putting him into the abyss; then the thrones are set in verse 4 and the judgment given. This is inclusive of the raised and glorified saints; not only is the assembly there, but, as I understand it, all that are raised. Then after the millennium the rest of the dead are all raised and all have part in this scene in the end of chapter 20, running on to the final settlement of things in the lake of fire. The beginning of chapter 21 has application to the service of God as continuing on in principle from the Lord’s supper to eternal conditions. Then in verse 9 we come back to millennial conditions. So that we know that the assembly’s position now is to continue on in the service of God as inaugurated by the Spirit, leading on to eternal conditions. The millennial state of things begins at verse 9 and brings out what God can do with men as we are now in national conditions and the like, the heavenly city being in touch with the earth as ruling. So that eternal conditions are already there in the assembly, which is in touch with the millennial earth, although these conditions are not eternal. However, there will doubtless be a merging here, for flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God. Therefore the millennium is limited, one might say, provisional, but will bring out what God can do with men in flesh and blood conditions.
CHH Are millennial conditions anticipated in their moral features today in the church?
JT I think so; new creation, too, has already begun, so that we link on already with eternal conditions; with the so-called bridge of the millennium. The millennium is a matter treated by itself, a special matter with God in which He works out certain things in men and nations as they are in the flesh, with Satan bound.
HH There is a kingdom now on earth, the kingdom of God established in connection with the [p. 134] Holy Spirit and the saints; a kingdom which cannot be moved.
JT Oh, yes. The word ‘kingdom’ is used variably. It is used to refer to Christ’s own kingdom, which is not of this world; and then too as to the formal conditions here, the Spirit being present. Matthew speaks of it as the kingdom of heaven; Luke and John as the kingdom of God. It has a moral bearing; it is the power that is operative for deliverance out of the world, while the world remains as it is.
CHH Would Paul’s designation of “the kingdom of the Son of his love” have an eternal bearing?
JT I suppose it would. We are translated into that already, I suppose for educational purposes, because the Son of the Father’s love contemplates the book of Proverbs. He is not yet on His own throne, but on the Father’s throne, I would say for educational purposes; so that we are brought up in the rule of love itself in the kingdom of the Son of the Father’s love. It is a kingdom to make it effective, but love is the idea of it. There is rule there, but it is to work out in love at the present time.
E Would you make a distinction between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the Father?
JT Well, there is a difference. There are varied references to the use of the word ‘kingdom’; even we ourselves are said to be made a kingdom at the present time, that Christ has made us a kingdom (Revelation 1:6). The saints themselves are a kingdom; I think the principle of rule is set up amongst them by themselves. And so it says, “By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves”, John 13: 35. But it is on the principle of kingdom, that it is intolerant of wickedness.
HH You said some time ago that the kingdom of the Son of the Father’s love in Colossians went over the Jordan; that it is not a wilderness [p. 135] condition.
JT I think that is right. It is a spiritual state of things in which the Son is known in that peculiar character as the Son of the Father’s love; and you are delivered from the authority of darkness and translated into that; showing that it is at the present time in christianity because the book of Proverbs really is in mind. Solomon is the Son of the Father’s love, and it is Solomon who can teach us, who can tell us of the Father and show us what the Father is to him. Hence in Matthew 11 the Lord says, “Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls”. I believe that is where the matter lies: it is the Son in the presence of the Father, and an Object for us, an educational Object for us. What a state! “Ye shall find rest to your souls”.
HH And that in a chapter in which everything is going the wrong way, John the baptist in prison and the Lord’s works not accepted.
JT Yes; everything had gone wrong. It was a critical time in the Lord’s path here and things were brought to an issue. It was a time of crisis when things had gone against Him outwardly. But it is the Son in the presence of the Father, and the Lord says, “I praise thee, Father ... that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes”, Matthew 11: 25. That is to say, it is Himself and the babes, and henceforward it is an educational time; so that it is a kingdom in a very attractive form. Now we have come to the millennial kingdom, and it is said, “And there came one of the seven angels which had had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. And he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain, and shewed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from [p. 136] God, having the glory of God. Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone; having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. On the east three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb”. So that we have now come to the idea of the personnel, as we already had it in the beginning of the book. But here it is a question of the angels, creatures in the service in the divine system, and of the sons of Israel, and of the apostles of the Lamb; so that we have a great range of administrative personnel. We have come to that now, seen working out on this present earth; not in the new earth but in the present one. God is going to show what He can cause to happen on this earth.
HB Is the beginning of this scene in the upper room in Acts?
JT Well, Acts introduces christianity, and christianity is in mind. We have in the book of Acts the inauguration and the personnel of the present dispensation. It is not a question there of the millennial dispensation but of the christian dispensation, and so we have the personnel of that, the twelve apostles, and certain women, among them the mother of Jesus and His brethren. These are set there as if God is going to work out there a nucleus of what has developed during all these centuries, as God brings out the fulness of the nations. We are now in the time of the fulness of the nations coming in, and the personnel used is seen in the first of Acts.
CHH Would this in any way refer to the masculine and feminine side in Genesis 1? He says, “Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle,
[p. 137] and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth ... male and female created he them”. Would millennial conditions on the earth show the male and female side?
JT Quite so; intelligence comes into that as to the male and female side of things, because the government of God requires both. There is hardly enough time to go into that, but it is worked out concretely in the book of Esther, and of course in other books too. God is showing in the creation of man that He had in mind the two sexes, and that they were both necessary, not only in the populating of the earth but in the rule that God has in mind. “Let them have dominion”, He says-a most interesting line of things. But I was thinking how the inauguration of the present dispensation in the book of Acts can be profitably compared with the inauguration of the millennial dispensation. They are two distinct things, and we have the latter here. The numeral ‘twelve’ is stamped on the whole construction, as if God were saying to us, I am going to show something special. It says in 1 Timothy 6: 15, “Which in its own time the blessed and only Ruler shall shew”. God is going to show what He can do. Man has failed utterly, and all kinds of government have failed, but God is going to show in the millennium what He can do and how He can govern.
WWM The Lord says in Acts 1 that it was not for them to know the times and seasons. Would this be in His mind, too, do you think, this time of the millennium?
JT Yes. The apostles wanted to go too fast; they wanted to go on to the millennium, not to the eternal state. They had not that in their minds; they wanted to know about times and seasons. “Lord, is it at this time that thou restorest the kingdom to Israel? And he said to them, It is not yours to know times or seasons”. That is remarkable. But He says,
[p. 138] as it were, The Spirit will come, and that is a greater thing for you; you wait for Him, and you will get everything. There is not a thing that He does not bring in. It is the day of the Spirit, and so John enlarges on that: “Ye have not need that any one should teach you”, 1 John 2: 27. That is our dispensation and there is no other like it.
But now we are dealing with the millennial dispensation, and the saints who form the present dispensation are already in heaven. They are not going through the millennium first; they go by themselves, so to speak. Others go too; but the assembly has already gone into heaven when we reach the millennium. The end of the matter is in the verses we had this morning, in the holy city coming down out of heaven. She is called “the holy city”, but she is a bride adorned for her husband, that is, there is the idea of freshness. It is a question of what is for Christ. But now, beginning with verse 9, He is going to use her in the millennium.
HH Do the saints come out with Christ in chapter 19?
JT Quite so; they come out militarily. They come out on white horses in chapter 19, but they are seen on the thrones in chapter 20. They are in an effectual position on thrones. The whole vista is here to look into. We have already seen our destination in the beginning of chapter 21; but now the Spirit of God is turning round to the millennium, and He would say, This is the point now; it is the administrative period that the Lord has in His mind now, the dispensation of the fulness of times.
RWS What would you say about the white horses and the thrones in connection with the assembly?
JT Well, the white horses of course are military. It says, “I saw the heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and one sitting on it, called Faithful and True, and he judges and makes war in righteousness. And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head many diadems, having a name written which no one knows but himself; and he is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in the heaven followed him upon white horses, clad in white, pure, fine linen”, Revelation 19: 11 - 14. That is a military position. Then in chapter 20 we have Satan bound, and the thrones: “And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them”. That is one group. “And the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God”: that is another company; they suffered and died after the assembly is taken up into heaven, but now they are seen on the thrones. Then it goes on “And those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years”. That is the position we are looking at now; the assembly is included, but it is not exclusively the assembly; evidently there are others living and reigning with Christ.
E Do you think the preaching of the glad tidings would be intended to bring men into millennial conditions before the day of display, as well as into assembly conditions?
JT You mean evangelical work, the angel flying in mid-heaven with the everlasting gospel? Of course the result of all that will be brought into the millennial state of things. So in chapter 7, the great crowd which no one can number is brought into it.
E I mean now-not only for the future but for the present moment.
JT Of course we have part in the millennial state of things, but only on the principle of ruling in it. The heavenly side is just rule and influence; the [p. 140] thousand years of blessing is for the people on the earth. The principle for us is to influence it.
TLS Is the assembly seen in a militant attitude prior to the millennium being ushered in?
JT I think she is included there in chapter 19. It is not like chapter 12 where you have Michael fighting with the devil. This is the Lord Himself, and the saints coming out with Him in military array to destroy His enemies, inclusive of and led by the beast and the false prophet. This greatest array of power, as you might say, the Lord Himself destroys. And now we come to verse 9, to the assembly, the Lamb’s wife, coming out in the sense of administration. She is seen as the great metropolis of the universe, really the heavenly metropolis of what is on earth; and she is going to influence all that happens.
J W. It seems that the Lamb is prominent in this section, but not in the previous one, where the assembly is seen as a bride adorned for her husband. Here she is spoken of as the Lamb’s wife; the Lamb is particularly mentioned.
JT The millennium, beginning with verse 9 of this section and running into the next chapter, has the Lamb in mind. The saints would, as it were, come back to earth again; not that the heavenly city is on the earth, but it is in relation to the earth, and the Lamb is in mind. It is to bring out how the assembly as having gone through experience is qualified to be associated with the Lord in His administrative services, and even in the military services.
SJH Is this what the apostle was telling the Corinthians they were to be prepared for? They were not prepared for it in wifely feelings.
JT Paul said he had espoused them as a chaste virgin to Christ. He told them that they would have to judge angels, and all that is in view in what we have been speaking of. We are to be prepared for heavenly administration.
[p. 141] Ques Is the thought of the Lamb based on the sufferings of Christ?
JT Yes; the Lamb usually carries that thought; and we have here the Lamb’s wife: “Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife”. She is a bride adorned earlier in the chapter, but that is in view of eternal relations with Christ. Now it is “the bride, the Lamb’s wife”.
HH The millennium fills in one thousand years before you get what we had this morning as to the bride in relation to the eternal state. Is that right? I mean that after one thousand years of millennial administration she is just as fresh and beautiful as at the beginning.
JT Just so; only the question is whether the two do not synchronise, carrying the thought through from chapter 19. The Lamb’s wife in chapter 19 is seen as married, united to Him officially. It is a scene of marriage. But then the Spirit takes us on to the end, to what is eternal, and that is involved in the beginning of chapter 21. Then He comes back again to the millennial scene, but the two may synchronise. However, we have to view the beginning of chapter 21 in relation to what is eternal: that is, what the assembly is to Christ, a bride adorned for her husband; while in this section it is the bride, the Lamb’s wife. She has the glory of God, and “her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone; having a great and high wall”. As you will see, she is already in relation to the millennium, but she is the Lamb’s wife nevertheless.
RWS How do you view those who are not today walking in the light of the assembly? How would they be able to function in the heavenly city in relation to the millennium on earth?
JT Well, it is a question of what God can do in a short time. He can raise us in the twinkling of an eye; so quickly can He change us, change myriads.
[p. 142] It is a question of what He can do. If they are really God’s people, the subjects of the work of the Spirit at the present time, then we have to come back to what God can do, to God’s sovereign power. How quickly He can do things to complete all the work of the present dispensation, and to make the assembly fit for its eternal purpose!
RWS Will there be gradations in rule?
JT You mean in those who rule? We are not all alike.
RWS I was thinking what a great advantage one who lived in the light of the assembly and understood something of assembly administration would have over one who was just caught up, having the Spirit but not knowing much about the assembly.
JT Suppose we put it this way: everything is going to be right; the great Operator is infinitely right. He has infinite power and can do things quickly if necessary. So we rest in that. We shall not get all our questions answered. If you were to ask me how babes are going to be saved, I do not know in detail, but I know they are going to be. That is, there is so much we just have to leave. Why can we not do that? If the Operator is infinite in wisdom and in power and in purpose, then everything must fit, and we can just say, That is all right; we do not need to be anxious about that. I do not mean that if it is in Scripture we should not look into it; but if God can raise a man out of the grave, or a million men, in the twinkling of an eye, the shortest conception of time, why can He not take a brother, or any number of brothers or sisters who are poorly educated, poorly trained, and do all the work in a moment?
That is how I look at matters of this kind. Today I see believers in the Presbyterian church singing in the choir; but in a moment I see the thing turned around and I see them in heaven. What has happened in between? Whatever it is, God has done it.
Rem The Lord said, “To-day”.
AB This morning you referred to verse 6 in connection with the eternal state: “And he said to me, It is done”. The whole work is accomplished. There may be difficulty in regard to questions and inquiries, but the great thing is that it is done.
JT So if you take Genesis 1: six days and it is done; the work is done. God rests on the seventh.
HH Could we not add the transaction at the cross, the comparatively short time in which the whole question of sin was dealt with? And the Lord said, “It is finished”.
JT Quite so.
CHH Would the Thessalonians be an example of how quickly things can be done in the souls of people? It says the word sounded out from them when they had been converted only two or three weeks; still they were a testimony all over the country.
SJH I thought that reward and the position in that day were dependent on our education and formation now. Is that wrong? If it is not a matter of formation through exercise now, we could sit back and it would be all right in the day to come.
JT You cannot reason that way. We have been speaking of the six days of the creation, and that on the sixth day all was done, even the creation of Adam and Eve, and God rested and was refreshed, meaning it had been a real matter of toil. He waited to create Adam and Eve till the last day for a special reason; all that He says about them took place on the sixth day. In chapter 1 God says, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth”. When we come to chapter 2 it is said, “And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of [p. 144] life; and Man became a living soul” (verse 7). That happened on the sixth day. Well, how much more He could have done! How many minutes did His operations take? How much time did it take to fill out the expanse on the second day? He took the earth out of the sea and set it up in life in a day. How much more He could have done! That is the way to arrive at the truth. If the scripture is silent you come back to God and what He can do, and rest in that. We have a lot of things in our minds and we are apt to get confused. We are now on the idea of how christians in the different sects, hardly educated at all spiritually, are to come out when this millennial day arrives.
How will they have part in it at all? How awkward they must be! And we are trying to think of what God can do in view of education-how much He can effect in view of His own eternal purpose. What we are saying is, I think, important, that God can do everything. Job says, “I know that thou canst do everything”, Job 42: 2. He had needed great adjustments, but he arrives at that, and that is what we have to arrive at, to understand and know Him, what He can do. We have to follow the creative line and what God can do, and what He can do in educating christians; the thousand ways we may arrive at things by bringing God in.
WFK Is that the idea when Abraham says, “Will not the judge of all the earth do right?”, Genesis 18:25?
JT Just so; that is another thing. You look at all this war, the atrocities, but God can deal with these things in every detail; He will not overlook one. Every one will be dealt with.
CHH The man at the Beautiful gate was a beggar one minute and the next minute he was a worshipper.
HH Is there not in all that the thought that the Holy Spirit is here? And it can never be said of the [p. 145] Holy Spirit that He did not complete His work in every detail.
JT I would say that. But I was thinking of the material creation, the vegetable kingdom. A man says, “How are the dead raised? and with what body do they come?”. That is simply a natural question. It is an act of God. The apostle says, “Fool”. Take wheat, or corn, or any cereal: put any number of them into the ground: well, God gives them all bodies as it pleases Him. Apply that now to all the brethren, christians in the different sects, uneducated spiritually, what cannot God do in view of translation, overnight?
RWS I am getting great help. I had never thought of it in this way.
JT I think it would turn us to God to see what may happen overnight. And yet we are praying about what may happen. Take our children turning aside into the world; we know they are the Lord’s; what may God not do in a moment with them?
TLS In Ezekiel 37 there is an exceeding great army that comes suddenly into life.
JT Even the skin comes upon them; they are brought into being. It is a real thing. There is ornamentation in the skin.
TLS Would you say that in John 12 there was quick adjustment by divine power? I have in mind the adjustment of the family, of Martha serving more intelligently, and of Lazarus the dead man being there, and Christ supreme in their hearts. It happened in a very short period of time.
EAL Do you mean that we are to be careful not to question the right of God to be magnanimous, as those did who worked through the heat of the day for a penny?
JT Yes; God has a right to be magnanimous. But if you apply the thing to the vegetable world or the fish of the sea, you see what can be done by God.
[p. 146] Take the Lord in the incident of the fish in Matthew 17; He says to Peter, Cast a hook into the sea. There is to be one fish and in that one fish’s mouth one piece of silver. That all happened. The Lord must have been operating there before. When Jonah says, Cast me into the sea, the fish came and swallowed him up; it says Jehovah had prepared that fish. That was quick work.
Rem And then the gourd; it came up overnight.
JT Quite so; various things were quickly prepared in Jonah’s case. So when we come to the bodies of the saints it says in Matthew that “many bodies of the saints fallen asleep arose, and going out of the tombs after his arising, entered into the holy city and appeared unto many” (chapter 27: 52, 53). Well now, suppose they had all arisen at that time, how many would there be? Who can tell, from Adam down? They will all come out in the twinkling of an eye, and those who are alive here will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. It throws us back on God and the knowledge of God. The Holy Spirit is working in us to that end, that we might know God.
HB “Can a land be made to bring forth in one day? shall a nation be born at once?”, Isaiah 66: 8.
JT Quite so. In our inquiry now it all resolves itself into a question of the knowledge of God. Paul says, “Some are ignorant of God”; not simply ‘about’ God but ignorant ‘of’ God. We are now looking at this great subject of the millennium, the great administrative matter, and it is for us to proceed in our inquiry in the light of the knowledge of God which He has given to us, and to see how all this can come about. We must see how the number twelve is the great numeral for our education; how it enters into the measurements. One of the features we must understand is that God is the God of measure; the knowledge of God implies knowing Him as the God of measure. He is the God of glory, but He is the [p. 147] God of measure too, and we have to apply that here. We are in the presence of God in our inquiry, but it is as the God of measure. So it is said that she has the glory of God, the heavenly city has that; and “Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone; having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. On the east three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb”. So that now we are, as it were, brought up to this city. It is not a bride adorned for her husband exactly; it is a great administrative city, and there are persons’ names involved in it. That is, there are certain classes of persons, angels, and the sons of Israel, and the twelve apostles of the Lamb. We are bound now to consider what all this means, and how it is going to work out. Then the next thing is, “And he that spoke with me had a golden reed as a measure, that he might measure the city, and its gates, and its wall. And the city lies four-square, and its length is as much as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed-twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and height of it are equal. And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, a man’s measure, that is, the angel’s”. Now we are, as it were, there. What are we to make out of this? Are we able to take in these measurements, and these persons mentioned? Then we have its foundations: “And the building of its wall was jasper; and the city pure gold, like pure glass: the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone: the first foundation, jasper ...”. We have to take into our minds the idea of the twelve foundations, that it is a great structure. Twelve foundations! So that it is a question [p. 148] of our power of absorption, whether we can take in these measurements; and then to see that we are being educated to have part in this structure when it begins to function.
HH I would like to ask about the measurement according to the angel.
JT It is a man’s measurement, it is brought down to our compass. It is not infinite. We are in the presence, not of infinity, but of man’s measure; it is what God has wrought in man. That is the point. The measurement is according to man, within our range.
HH Why does it say “the angel’s”?
JT It is instrumentality, clearly. That has a great place in this book. But it is a man’s measurement.
CHH Would the fact that it is an angel infer that man has arrived at heavenly ability to measure things?
JT Yes. I suppose then we shall know a little more about angels than we do now; but we are not to enquire too much into it, because God has intimated to us that families are to be kept distinct. The light that shines for us in Jesus is not for angels; it is for us. He is the Light of men.
CHH A man’s measurement here would be no different from the angel’s?
JT No. Man’s measurement would mean it is finite. It is intelligible to us who are men. It is very hard to take this in with the natural mind because the city is a cube. How can you get persons, an untold number of persons, formed into a city, and that a cube? It is humanly incomprehensible. We have, therefore, to go back again to God as to how the thing can be; how it works out. It is a solemn and substantial matter and yet it is formed of persons.
M What is the difference between this city and the one that Ezekiel [p. 149] sees?
JT Well, this is the heavenly city, formed of ourselves, to be simple and practical. We are being formed for it now and put into it even now. But Ezekiel is an earthly state of things; it is what will be set up in Israel presently according to God’s purpose on earth. But we are now occupied with the heavenly; and to pursue the subject, we are told that these twelve foundations are the twelve apostles of the Lamb. The precious stones are brought in to show how intrinsically precious the thing is, and how strong the foundational idea, that it will stand eternally.
AB Things seem much clearer as considering your reference to Genesis in connection with what you have been saying: God working at the outset and bringing man in, and then Babel coming in, the result of man’s mind as away from God. And now we have what is set over against that. Would you say it is most interesting that God held man in relation to Himself, and now we have a city composed of men, persons? There is no difference. He says, “Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife”: it is a city.
JT Showing that God has in His mind to stress the administrative idea as worked out millennially: Then as to the effect of it: when all these things are stated we have the moral question. He says, “And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon, that they should shine for it”. It is a heavenly, spiritual matter. The lights were set up in Genesis and were needed, but no natural lights are needed here, for “The Lord God shall shine upon them”. Yet we have terms here that belong to the beginning of Genesis; really the allusion is to Jehovah Elohim, showing the extent of this matter, that it extends back to the beginning of creation and is now workable in relation to men in flesh and blood here, in the nations, through the heavenly city. There they are, even the nations. God says, I am going to rule in these circumstances, but this is a heavenly thing through which [p. 150] I am ruling. It needs no natural light. No statesmanship or education or politics or business will be of any avail here. We are being made now and educated on these lines. How are we getting on? Let us challenge ourselves: How can I get on without the sun or moon or electricity? I have to challenge myself, and that brings up the question of spiritual constitution in us, and of what we are as spiritually formed. So it is said that Christ is a quickening Spirit, the last Adam is a quickening Spirit. He has quickened us and made us for this purpose, so that we do not need these natural lights. And we are told what the effect is in this new state of things: “And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon, that they should shine for it; for the glory of God has enlightened it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb. And the nations shall walk by its light”. That is, they have learned now to walk by light that is not merely the product of man’s mind. It is another kind of light. “The kings of the earth bring their glory to it”. It is showing itself to be superior. What God has provided in view of all this is superior to everything else, there is nothing like it. Then, “And its gates shall not be shut at all by day, for night shall not be there”. In Genesis 1 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night, but these two ideas stop here, they are finished. We are now dealing with another order of things, so that there is no night here, and the light is not from the sun or from the moon but from something else: the Lamb is the light thereof, the Lord God and the Lamb. And then we are told, “The nations shall walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory to it ... . And nothing common, nor that maketh an abomination and a lie, shall at all enter into it; but those only who are written in the book of life of the Lamb”. I think we are challenged as to whether we can take these things in, whether we can carry the thoughts away, whether we are capable of absorbing [p. 151] spiritual thoughts. How can we have light without any sun or moon or stars?
CHH Would there be anything akin in Colossians where it says as to the assembly, “In which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge”, Colossians 2: 3? According to that you need no natural light whatever.
JT That comes into what we are saying. We do not have to go outside for light. The Colossians were in danger of natural lights, philosophy and vain deceit, but the apostle says these are not needed; they are not right and they are not needed.
AAT Is it moral light you are speaking of?
JT Yes; it is light in the sense in which you say, My soul was enlightened, and enlightened by what is said. You might be in a dark cellar, and yet say that; you are enlightened by what is said.
SJH Paul and Silas in prison were not affected by their circumstances; they had light.
JT Quite so.
Ques Would it be like “God is fight”?
JT Just so. Now as regards the effect of the city, the verses read in the next chapter show how benign, how enriching it is; that the whole scene below is refreshed and invigorated by it. All the effects of sin that have been working are removed by the healing power of the leaves of the tree of life. Chapter 22 brings out the healing effect of this wonderful tree on the nations and all below. And surely there is some moral connection now as to its effect in the conditions among the brethren; as to whether this matter is not practical so that we might be healed today. Let us be healed! Why should there be a laceration amongst us?
CHH Would Philippians 2: 15, 16 in any way correspond with her shining? “Among whom ye appear as lights in the world, holding forth the word of life”.
JT Quite; it is clearly applicable because it shows that what we are now is to work out then in this wonderful system; the tree of life in the midst of the street, and this river, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. We can only touch it, but if we are at all able to take the thing in spiritually we shall see what an effect it will all have. When what we are now is turned to account by the power of God, what an effect it will have on all below! And so God is going to change this present earth and its woes benignly through the assembly, through the heavenly city, to bring about a state of recovery all working out from the heavenly city above.
HH As to the producing of the twelve fruits, in each month its fruit, what would be the relation of the fruit to the month?
JT I think it is to show that we are still in time. We have been dealing with an eternal state of things in chapter 21, but now we are dealing with time, and assembly time is most precious and should not be wasted. We were speaking of that lately in connection with Luke 22: 14: “And when the hour was come, he placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him”. It is an administrative position that the Lord was in. The Lord’s supper was instituted in administrative conditions.
H H. Who benefits by this fruit? Who eats it?
JT It is for the inhabitants of the city, for the elite — not for the nations or the Jews; they get the leaves. Israel may get some of the fruit because they are at the gates, but the inhabitants of the city are the assembly, or those raised from the dead at the same time, and the fruit of the tree of life is entirely for the celestial residents of the heavenly city. It is their fruit.
CHH Would the twelve fruits refer to variety in ministry, like the produce of Solomon’s twelve [p. 153] superintendents? The provision would not only be fresh, but would have variety in it.
JT Just so; every month something different. That ought to affect us too.
CHH Would you apply it in any sense to our monthly meetings?
JT They are numerous now. We had about twenty meetings last year lasting for three days each; and we need freshness for these. In addition I do not know how many weekly meetings, so-called special meetings, we had. What you suggest is well worth considering, as to how we are going to maintain freshness; because we are learning how to be fresh now. The bride begins with freshness. After one thousand years she is still fresh. Well, these celestial people that are contemplated in the heavenly city are maintained in freshness by these twelve kinds of fruit. But then, that is not the eternal state of things; eternity is not in mind. What is in mind is time. God made time and used it first, and He shows us how to use it. We should learn to use it, and not come late to the meetings, for we are dealing now with assembly time; not with factory time, but with assembly time. “And when the hour was come”, it says, “he placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him”. It is a question of administration, and time is precious so as to get everything done. Things are not to be left undone.
HH He must have been there early in order to sit down at the right time.
Ques A good deal of sleeping goes on in assembly time. It is not the time for that, is it?
JT Jonah learned something about sleeping at the wrong time!
SJH Inasmuch as it is the holy city, and heavenly, and comes down from God, why does it need a high [p. 154] wall?
JT Because of conditions below. We have already said that the millennium has to do with conditions on the earth; the remedy is from heaven. The remedy does not arise from conditions on the earth but from conditions in heaven; it is to bring out and establish the precedence of heaven in everything. So that is the point here, that she comes down from God out of heaven with conditions made to meet earthly conditions. That is not what you get in chapter 21; at the beginning of that chapter she comes down in relation to new creation, a new heaven and a new earth. But here she comes down in relation to men in the flesh, the nations and Israel as a nation.
SJH The wall is not for our protection, for holiness would take the place of that; but it is needed for the earth.
JT The idea of the wall is to educate our minds that there is no admission of evil there at all. The heavenly city is proof against anything of that kind, and that would be conveyed in the idea of the height of the wall.
Rem In the beginning of chapter 21 there is no clock, but at the end of the chapter there is the clock.
JT In the city it is administrative time, and therefore very precious. Of course factory time is precious too, and the scale of wages is very high; but it is not so high as that with which we are dealing now, the value of assembly time. It is in view of what is here below. The holy city has come into time as the Lord came into time, as God came into time. The first part of chapter 21 leads us into eternity, where time is no more; but time is stressed here, and that we should be kept free in time. If we are late for the meeting, we are very apt to be flustered if the brethren start to sing a hymn and we are not just in the state to join in. We need to be adjusted. We all, perhaps, transgress in this sense, but it is well to keep it before us. Assembly time is precious and when the [p. 155] hour was come the Lord was there. He did not just come in to take His place; He was already there.
RH Verse 10 of chapter 22 says; “The time is near”.
JT Just so. The meaning of that is seen in what follows: “Let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still; and let the filthy make himself filthy still; and let him that is righteous practise righteousness still; and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still”. There is no time for setting up anything new, to introduce any new ways or principles; the time is near. God would say that what you are you must remain, as it were, judicially; if you are filthy there is no time to change. It is to impress us with the seriousness of being filthy, I think that is what is meant. God would say that if you are in that state there is no time left; adjustment must take place at once or not at all.
RWS Does all this bear on the fact that God seems to be going on with what He has already in hand without enlarging things greatly? The additions are not so frequent as they were in the past. Does the wall appear to be higher because of the various tests coming up?
JT Yes; the need for the height of the wall is being stressed, and the measuring of it too. As has been remarked, Let him that is filthy be filthy still, a most solemn thing. But it must be ironical with God. The nearness of the time when God will say that all is over is to impress us with the seriousness of not settling matters. Then the final thought in mind is in verse 16 — the way in which the Lord comes back to us after carrying us to such heights, as it were, in this book, carrying us into the heavenlies, and then back to the wonderful administration on earth for one thousand years, with this wonderful structure functioning, enlightening the universe. It [p. 156] is not simply that things are shown in a general way, but the assembly is like a temple; the nations inquire there to get light; those below get light and instruction from it. But after all the instruction of that is over, the Lord comes back to ordinary conditions such as we have here in Montreal, and He says, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star”. The Lord would say just that to us: “I Jesus”. Because after all, in the government of God we may continue on here a little longer, and if so it is Jesus; as on the mount of transfiguration they looked around after all the glory, and it was Jesus alone with themselves. That is the position. His angel has been sent to testify these things to us in our localities, in the assemblies, and then the response: “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come”. We are to be active on those lines; the Lord would say to us right now, Go on with those lines. It is “I Jesus”.
He is going to keep on as “I Jesus”. And the angels are subject, they are sent out as ministers; and we are to go on telling people about the living water. We are not to enlarge so much on the river that flows out of the throne as to point out that the living water is available. It is really the living water, the Spirit, that is in mind in the gospel in the present dispensation. It is not a millennial matter, but a matter of the present dispensation, God presenting Himself in the gospel and in the presence of the Holy Spirit here below in the assembly, to save men. That is what these verses mean, I believe. So that it says, “The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come; he that will, let him take the water of life freely”. So that we can move on maybe for a few weeks more on Sunday evenings, and the Lord will say, I am going to be with [p. 157] you.
CHH It is not the missionary aspect, but more what is just here.
JT What “I Jesus” will do. What He was there in Palestine He is here now to His people, to the everyday man and woman. We have Him as the truth and the Spirit as the water of life.
Ques What about “The Spirit and the bride say, Come”?
JT I think that is to stress how the Spirit is personally amongst us. The question often comes up as to whether we speak to the Spirit; but here He Himself is viewed as speaking, that He is affected Himself in regard of the coming of the Lord Jesus. And then the bride also says, “Come”. It is a beautiful response given with that of the Spirit, which will be infinite for the coming of the Lord.