CHRISTIAN CONFLICT
CHRISTIAN CONFLICT
JT The exercise was, that in view of the present conflict among the nations, and the tendency to be occupied with it, we may lose sight of the great conflict, the spiritual conflict for the testimony. When the great earthly conflict begins Jerusalem will be the centre of it; now it is the heavenly position that is the centre, it is in connection with that the contention is. It is when God moves to take possession of anything that Satan opposes, so that the Man Child going into heaven occasioned the conflict there.
FHB So that the conflict is not to maintain anything for ourselves, it is in connection with the testimony such as Paul rendered at Ephesus, and with which he is connected here as a prisoner.
JT So that after the words, “For the rest, brethren”, much less follows here than that which follows a similar expression in Philippians. You have two whole chapters in Philippians which follow this expression; the apostle was led on in a different strain in writing to the Philippians. The epistle to Ephesus is more formal and official as bringing out the assembly’s place in the divine counsels, and the apostle does not let out his feelings. Having brought that out, the consequences would be that the testimony would be maintained in conflict; so “For the rest, brethren”, is preparation for the conflict.
WJ Hence “Be strong in the Lord”; in the other case, “Rejoice in the Lord”.
JT Yes, in Philippians, joy in the Lord.
FHB I suppose when Israel was planted in the land of Canaan, it was to be a testimony to God that He was the God of the whole earth; and their conflict was to maintain that testimony.
JT [p. 126] And the fear of them was to fall on the inhabitants of the land, the power of God being now in them. So that in Ephesians the position is answered to, the power is for conflict; whereas in Philippians the power is for worship and joy, but it is the same power. It was the Ark of the covenant that went over before them, but in the land it was power in the people. Rahab said to the spies, “The dread of you has fallen on us” (Joshua 2:9). It was not that they should be exalted, hence the necessity for circumcision in regard of the conflict. So that the armour is God’s armour, but worn by the saints. In the book of Joshua they are circumcised, they eat the old corn of the land, and then the man with the drawn sword appears; it is all education for Joshua. That is, that in spite of the fact that we are on right ground, we are apt to be partisan in our feelings; Joshua said, “Art thou for us, or for our enemies?” (chapter 5:13). The conflict is not for them; the conflict is for Jehovah. It is the “captain of the host of the Lord”. It is as having taken our place as circumcised, and having a reverential regard for Christ as having been our Passover, and feeding on the old corn of the land, that He becomes our Prince. And then what follows upon that is the necessity for holiness; because nothing is more apt to intrude in conflict than envy and hatred. Feelings arise, hence the great necessity that it should be recognised that it is a holy conflict; our feelings must have no place in it.
JSG Do you think this is similar to our position?
JT Well, it is an allusion to it. It is a great mistake to think that you get everything that is in the Old Testament, in the New. God does not repeat Himself. What is put down in Joshua is Scripture, and it is written for us.
JSG Is it not with us more maintaining than [p. 127] obtaining?
JT It is standing. You are supposed to be in the land, and you are to occupy the ground.
JSG So that the scene of conflict is here, and it is to maintain the testimony of what is heavenly upon earth.
FHB And especially the truth as to Christ and the assembly as associated with Him (Ephesians 1:19 - 22).
JT As you proceed in Joshua, Joshua is found with his face to the earth, and you learn that you are not only on heavenly ground but on holy ground. And the conflict begins with not only what Joshua would do, but what the priests would do. The main feature in chapter 6 is the carrying of the Ark; that is, the testimony of the Christ carried by the priests. It is “not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord” (Zechariah 4:6). We can do nothing by human power; I believe that is the education of Joshua 6.
FHB The truth of circumcision must be kept up.
JT After every conflict they had to return to Gilgal; and, if I may take the liberty of pursuing Joshua, I would say they learnt in chapter 6 how the victory was to be achieved; there was to be the clear sounding forth of testimony. They will have their fighting in due time, but it is the sounding of the trumpets by the priests which brings down the stronghold. To follow Joshua, chapters 7, 8 and 9 are chapters of failure, but in chapter 10 Joshua really comes to the truth; you have figuratively “a man in Christ” (2 Corinthians 12:2). The Lord hearkened to the voice of a man: “Is not this written in the book of Jasher (the upright)?” The “man in Christ” is the upright man, that is the man for the conflict; the heavens stand still for him.
WJ Would you say the new man? Would that cover it?
JT The new man is not quite the “man in Christ”. I think the new man is what is for display here, but the man in Christ is for heaven; that [p. 128] man goes up. I think the new man is where the old man was.
WJ It seems that the new man is an obedient man.
SH The new man is a collective thought.
JT You cannot see it completely in any one individual. But Joshua 10 is very fine in this way; he has learnt his lesson, and God hearkens to the voice of a man.
PRM The sun and moon stand still.
JT A very wonderful thing to happen; but I think it should afford great confidence of heart to see that such a thing should have taken place on account of a man. I think it indicates what may be effected by a man in Christ.
PRM Are the sun and moon not the ruling powers?
JT That ought to be a great encouragement to us in days like these. If the ruling powers are going to do damage to us, they can be held back; the issue will be largely dependent on the prayers of God’s people; if the sun and moon can be held back by the voice of a man, the ruling powers can be held back. But the testimony is, that there never was a day like that, before or after, “that the Lord hearkened unto the voice of a man”.
FHB May we not gather this also from it, viz., that God can govern providentially the course of things in this world for the sake of the testimony?
JT Do you not think, in the light of 1 Timothy, which is closely associated with the epistle to Ephesus, that all centres in the prayers of the saints, and God hears them? He does not fail to hear them.
WHB Evil is held back down here in view of God’s heavenly people.
JT “He who now letteth will let”, there is no doubt that the letting power is very largely in answer to the prayers of God’s [p. 129] people.
EB Is that why prayer is so prominent in this chapter?
JT No doubt. I think, perhaps, this epistle is more official than any epistles of Paul, because of the great place of the assembly. It was very important that it should be presented carefully, and what is important for the maintenance of it, hence so much prayer. And the contention now is for the heavenly position; the great earthly conflict is to come later. Satan will not take much account of things on the earth politically until he is turned out of heaven. The assembly is the complement of Christ; He is given to be “head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all” (Ephesians 1:22,23).
THR I think what you are saying as to prayer is very important; we get it twice in Scripture as “in the Holy Ghost”, here and in Jude 20, where the apostasy has come in.
JT The upright man’s prayer is effective: we are to lift up holy hands without wrath and doubting.
HD'AC If God intervenes, like the sun and the moon standing still, His intervention in the present moment is not likely to be obvious to the world, but very clear to us; there will not be any public vindication as there will be in a future day.
JT Quite, you would not expect a public vindication; you could not get that after the candlestick has been removed. Faith takes account of what has been done.
PRM And it is on the line of hindering, not pushing things forward.
EAP There is the word “He reproved kings for their sakes” (1 Chronicles 16:21).
JT “The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water; he turneth it whithersoever he will” (Proverbs 21:1).
[p. 130] FHB If we had a true sense of the greatness of the powers of evil with which we have to contend, it would turn us to prayer; there is such an array of evil, all against Christ and His testimony in this world.
JT To use a military figure, Paul is like a good general; a good general locates his enemy, and never underrates his power.
EJMcB It is striking, too, in the account of the conflict that there were more killed by the hailstones than by the swords of the children of Israel.
PRM The hailstones normally should come down in rain and blessing, but God makes what should be blessing to come down in judgment upon man.
JT I feel it is a great advantage to have the enemy located, and to know all you have to contend with, and where it is; it is not in regard to the political movements on the earth, so that we need not be concerned about them.
THR I think, too, we have to remember that we are in the days of Philadelphia, and that the Lord has set before us an open door.
JT I was thinking of that, and that is what faith sees. There is no outward vindication of the assembly after the failure, but there is an opened door for faith. I have no doubt everyone of us would be a witness to the fact that our way is not entirely shut up.
FHB I think we have had abundant proof of that.
HD'AC The ground has never been lost for God, the Holy Spirit is maintaining it.
THR I have no doubt the position of quietness in which we can meet is in answer to prayer.
JT “No man forbidding” (Acts 28:31) us. It would help with many Christians if they were to see where the enemy is, and that his actions against us are not in the political movements on the earth, nor the conflicts [p. 131] on the earth; the position is a spiritual one, and the conflict a spiritual one, and the centre of it is in heaven.
EJMcB Do you mean that Satan has certain influences which he brings to bear upon the saints to destroy the testimony to the heavenly position?
SH What form will they take?
JT I think it may be learnt from the Lord’s word to Smyrna; the Lord endeavoured to keep the saints alive, to keep the saints from settling down. Satan may use anything to induce us to give up the heavenly position. I believe the persecution in Smyrna was to keep the saints alive; but in Pergamos you get the statement where she was dwelling: I believe there was a settling down to earth.
FHB When it speaks of the conflict being in connection with heavenly places, it means, I suppose, that while we meet these powers of evil in men here, the seat of them is in heavenly places.
PRM We meet it in “this darkness”.
DLH But is not the opposition found very largely in the teaching and writings of men of learning?
JT There is no doubt about that, but what I was seeking to show was the seat of it, and the object of it to seek to induce the saints to accept a place on earth; because the moment that is accepted as a principle the ground is entirely surrendered.
FHB With respect to the heavenly position; that is, that Christ is in heaven as Man, Head over all things, and the assembly united to Him there.
JT How Satan got into the heavenlies would be a very interesting inquiry, but that he is there is unquestionable.
DLH Was he ever anywhere else?
JT I think so. The place he occupies in the heavenlies is a place connected with the earth.
THR Therefore he must be cast out, in order that Christ and the church may take that place.
[p. 132] Ques When do you think he entered the heavenlies?
JT I think he got in in connection with government. The heavens are always the figure of the governing position. I think those to whom government was committed failed in it, and he got control of the governing powers.
PRM Is not the conflict here a necessity from chapter 2?
JT That is the point, and that is what Satan contests. The Canaanites were really the descendants of Ham, the cursed descendants of Canaan. It was really that Noah did not govern himself to begin with, but the conflict arises not only because Christ is in the heavenlies, but the assembly is there. The whole point is to shut out the light of the heavenlies, leading the saints to give up the heavenly position, and of course, the heavenly witness.
THR The fact is that nothing can ever be completed in the purpose of God until the assembly is with Christ in the heavenlies. Now it is testimony, by and bye it will be reality.
EB And then the saints are encouraged to pray for that.
THR I think so.
Ques What is the difference between this and 2 Corinthians 10: 4?
JT It is the same thing in principle. What I understand by 2 Corinthians 10 is that the testimony of the apostles brought down Satan’s world, not in fact, but in principle. Everything that is established in your soul is viewed as a conquest. There was the city of books, and the city of learning, different cities in Asia; all these things had to come down. How was it brought about? The fact was that the testimony of the apostles, particularly Paul, was too strong for them; it brought them down for faith.
Ques Is that peculiar to [p. 133] the apostles?
JT There has been no advance on the apostles, they conquered the territory; we do not conquer it, we have to “stand”.
Rem It is for us to enjoy it.
JT Sometimes we hear of new things, but there is nothing new; no one can advance on the apostles.
G “To bring to nought things that are” (1 Corinthians 1:28).
JT But our brother is referring to the weapons of our warfare. “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God” (2 Corinthians 10:5).
THR I do not think that we think enough of it in regard to the book of Joshua, that the Lord actually took possession of that piece of land as a pledge that He is going to take possession of the whole earth. It is His, and no one can meddle with it. People talk of putting the Jews back into their land.
PRM When did He take possession of it?
THR When the Ark of the covenant went over Jordan.
FHB Now the proclamation is the rights of Christ.
EJMcB I think we need not be surprised that the enemy should use every subterfuge to prevent the people of God from occupying that land.
JT It is maintained if there is one man that has it in faith. What we need, I am sure, is not so much quantity but quality.
THR I do think we ought to see more God’s hand in everything. Palestine is not the land of the Jews but God’s land.
JT They have to wait for the year of jubilee. “The land is mine” (Leviticus 25:23).
EJMcB I think one great point in this kind of conflict is that the enemy has been defeated in regard of Christ personally, but he would use every effort to prevent those that are Christ’s from joining Christ in [p. 134] that position.
JT So that the end of Philippians 3 says that our citizenship is in the heavens.
EJMcB It ought to give us exercise that the saints are not to be in that place in an arbitrary way, but just as Christ went up after a pathway of moral worth, so the assembly is translated as pleasurable to Christ.
HD'AC I believe that is of the greatest moment.
JT I believe that the Lord is working at the present time to form a people pleasing to Him.
THR If we took it home to ourselves that we are heavenly, a lot of things would drop off.
JT I should say it is safer and surer to cut them off. The sharp knives, I think, are what is needed for these things. But I do believe the Lord will bring about a state like that which was seen in Enoch before the assembly is translated. It says, “before his translation” (Hebrews 11:5). I do not know how long before, because he had been walking for a long time with God. I believe that God had been working to produce that state. “Before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God”.
WJ So that we have the sense that we go there of necessity.
SH Could we come out in the conflict until we have been there?
JT I think not. All the preparation of the first nine chapters of Joshua is to prepare a man in Christ; it is when you come to that you are fit for the conflict. Then all those thirty-one kings go down.
EJMcB “They loved not their lives unto the death”. It seems to me that practically a person gives up his manhood. “They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death” (Revelation 12:11).
DLH I was going to ask a question as to the distinction between the heavenlies and [p. 135] heaven.
JT I think heaven, where it is used in the singular, applies to the abode and throne of God, so it is entirely holy.
DLH Our citizenship is in the heavens.
JT But that is plural. In the creation, every day’s work was pronounced upon by God, and pronounced good. But the second day’s work was not pronounced good. Now the heavens that we know are the heavens with Christ in them, and I believe that Satan secured a place there. In that way it was a sphere of rule; now the assembly is to occupy that, it is really what shall be seen in the millennium. It is good now because Christ is there. The seventy disciples returned to the Lord, and rejoiced that the demons were subject to them according to the Lord’s word, but He replies, “Rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven” (Luke 10:20). They are not there yet, but they are there in principle, because their names are there; if one’s name is there, one’s position is secured.
DLH Is that the singular or the plural?
PRM “Written in the heavens”; it is plural. “I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven” (Luke 10:18) is singular.
JT Well, what I said as to where it is used in the singular may not be quite correct; but where it says, “into heaven itself”, that is not where Satan is.
DLH But where was the sphere of Satan’s original creation?
JT We can say nothing about that, because we have to do with the heavens of Genesis 1.
DLH It is clear that Satan was created with regard to a sphere that was not connected with this earth.
JT It says in the book of Job that Satan was walking up and down in the earth; it would appear that his activities as hostile to God were on the earth.
[p. 136] Job was contemporary with Abraham. But no doubt he got into that position through the failure of those who ought to have maintained government on earth.
Ques Were his activities on the earth consequent upon his fall?
JT He fell long before that, but his activities ever since have been on earth.
Ques Would the earth being without form and void be connected with Satan’s fall?
JT Very likely, but we cannot say much about that.
ASL The first verse of Genesis stands by itself.
WJ What about Ezekiel 28:13, “thou hast been in Eden”? What does that set forth?
JT It shows what a wonderful place Satan had in nearness to God.
JSG Does not that suggest that he had a place in reference to this earth? It is a remarkable thing, if you take the precious stones, that they are found again in the breastplate of the high priest, and in the heavenly city.
FHB You were saying just now that Satan’s opposition was against man, that beautiful creature created for God’s pleasure; now it is still against the Man, and against those who stand here for that Man. We do not fight for our own blessing, but really for the testimony of the Christ.
JT Of course you have to add that every place on which your feet stand is yours, you get it by conflict.
WJ But is not that peculiar to Ephesians, His inheritance, His calling?
JT But it is not now the garden of Eden. That was a very beautiful spot, and Satan envied God that beautiful spot and that beautiful creature; but it is now a Man in the heavens. The conception of it was a delight to God, and Satan’s opposition is to all that.
GWW What comes out is that that blessed [p. 137] Man is there in the power of accomplished redemption, and that involves the carrying out of all God’s purposes.
SH But is not the opposition here against the fulness of Christ? The attack is against the woman.
JT Satan is a clever and skilful general: he attacked the weakest point. I have no doubt he was envious of Adam.
SH Is it not rather a spiritual sphere, and the forces that Satan is bringing against that position are spiritual?
JT Yes, it says in Philippians they were in nothing terrified by their adversaries.
SH So that what we have here are moral influences, which would corrupt what God has brought about for His own pleasure.
JT There is “this darkness”, as Mr. M. suggests, but I was thinking that if we can see the position, the location of the enemy, and the might of his power, then you have over against that the Leader, the Captain of the Lord’s host, then the warriors and then the armour, because without the armour we are utterly powerless.
PRM An indivisible whole.
JT A panoply.
FHB All these parts of the armour are connected with our state.
HD'AC Who would you say the Captain of the Lord’s host is?
JT The Lord Jesus. In the conflict the first thing is, one’s loins have to be taken account of, then one’s breast, one’s feet, and so on.
WJ All these moral features are connected with your answer to the revelation of God.
SH What you have really is a new moral being.
FHB Then if it is moral influences which we have to stand against, there must be a moral state in us to withstand [p. 138] them.
SH It has to be met by a new moral or spiritual being, and I think it is in that way we arrive at the constitution of the church.
JT So that the conflict takes form in your everyday life. The loins mean your internal affections; not so much the intelligent but the lower affections of man: these have to be girded about with truth.
SH These are the characteristics of the new man.
FHB But we have to put these things on.
WJ Was that your thought just now, that we have the new man here?
JT Yes, but you have affections, you had them before you were converted; take an unconverted man, his affections flow loose; he does not care whether he drags them in the gutter or not; but the idea of a Christian is that his loins should be girded by truth. You do not take up just any book and read it, you want to know who wrote it. Like the newspapers, you may have to read them: they are like a glass filled with dirty water; the deeper you drink the more dirty it is.
EB The great thing is to be kept by the truth.
SH Is it not that we are so formed, that every part of us is formed in regard to every other part?
JT As regards truth, builders understand it; you cannot build without truth.
EJMcB I think you see a beautiful figure in Elijah, when he girded up his loins and ran before Ahab.
JT I believe that we are greatly hampered by touching things so freely; they may appear to be legitimate, but the more you drink into them the more they defile you: you have to put a thing down immediately, otherwise you find yourself steeped in it and are defiled. Ephesus was the city of books; books are a most ensnaring thing for us, because they seem so legitimate.
THR And newspapers [p. 139] too.
JT I suppose the breastplate of righteousness is that you have a good conscience, a conscience maintained in the full light of the position.
WJ It is fine the way the apostle maintained his good conscience in the presence of the high priest.
JT The next thing is the feet; what kind of shoes you have on.
Ques Why is it the “preparation”?
JT Because if it were the preaching, no one but the evangelist could wear them, but every Christian ought to be prepared. The house of God ought to be evangelical; if you do not preach you go to the meeting in support of it. It may be a contrast to the preparation in earthly wars: our preparation is the gospel of peace.
SH Is it not like the rams’ horns, the testimony?
JT You have beautiful feet. I suppose the rams’ horns refer to the beauty of Christ. I suppose the horns would refer to the countenance, but who had beautiful feet? You often find a beautiful face, but poor feet.
PRM Do you think that in Acts 10 you see how Peter’s feet were prepared?
WJ It is an evangelical spirit and ways.
FHB If we were in the light of the gospel, it would maintain us in peace in every way.
JT I think that is a very excellent suggestion according to the prayer of 1 Timothy 2. The prayer has that in view; you do not want war on earth, but we do want this spiritual war maintained at its full height; you do not want war with men, you want peace with them, but not with Satan. It is remarkable that it is the God of peace that shall bruise Satan under our feet shortly.
PRM “The fiery darts”, what are they?
JT I think the shield of faith is a very fine piece of the armour, because after all we are all more or less failing; even Paul must have thought how [p. 140] he had come into prison; but how the shield of faith would come in there! So if failure has occurred, and Satan has had the advantage, faith covers you; you rest in this that God has not changed toward you.
THR So in Psalm 3:3 David says, “Thou, O Lord, art a shield for me”.
WJ If we bow under His hand in failure, we can shelter in His love.
Rem “I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:32).
JT He does not think one whit less of me after the failure than He did before. I suppose the helmet of salvation enables you to lift up your head; you are not discouraged.
FHB I think Paul in Philippians 1 had on the helmet of salvation; whatever happened he was sure of victory.
WJ All this armour is the effect of the knowledge of God?
JT And how beautiful the last exhortation to prayer, “Praying at all seasons, with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching unto this very thing with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; and for me in order that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth to make known with boldness the mystery of the glad tidings, for which I am an ambassador bound with a chain, that I may be bold in it as I ought to speak”.
EB That never fails.
JT No, it is as great a thing now as ever; things are made to depend, I am sure, on the prayers of God’s people.
WJ So we have “apprehended with all the saints”, and “supplication for all saints”.
JT Each individual has to have the armour, I should say.