WORSHIP

WORSHIP

1 Peter 2:1 - 10; Hebrews 10:19 - 25

RSS Something was said yesterday that struck me very much; that it does not say God was seeking worship; that would be too abstract. It is God seeking worshippers, the individuals, and I think we every one would wish to be found responding to God’s desire; we have had that in mind in our meetings, that God might get His end in connection with us.

JT That really leads us on in the types as far as Leviticus, in which book God speaks out of the tabernacle.

RSS Quite so; the book of Leviticus begins that way.

JT The book of Exodus shows that which was pleasing to God. It says they brought their work to Moses in Exodus 39:42,43. “According to all that the Lord commanded Moses, so the children of Israel made all the work, and Moses did look upon all the work and behold they had done it as the Lord had commanded; even so had they done it, and Moses blessed them”. All the parts of the tabernacle are brought as completed, and it is said they were made as the Lord commanded Moses. They are brought to Moses, as if to be passed upon, and Moses blessed them. That is, he blessed the people. In the next chapter they are all put together; then it says in verse 9: “Thou shalt take the anointing oil and anoint the tabernacle, and all that is therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof; and it shall be holy. And thou shalt anoint the altar of the burnt-offerings, and all his vessels, and sanctify the altar; and it shall be an altar most holy. And thou shalt anoint the laver and his foot, and sanctify it. And thou shalt bring ^[p. 400] Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water. And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office. And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats; and thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office; for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations. Thus did Moses; according to all that the Lord commanded him, so did he”.

Then it says further, Moses having set up and anointed everything; “Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle”. Now there you have the dwelling presented as wholly pleasing to God. Moses had anointed every part of it with the holy oil. The oil did not represent God dwelling. It rather represented God’s approval of the work. It was anointed, but then the glory entering in is typical of the divine dwelling; that God had come in Himself, so that the whole tabernacle was filled. There was nothing there undesirable to God; nothing to cause Him displeasure; He is complacent in all.

Now the book of Leviticus opens with God speaking out of that. It says, “The Lord called unto Moses and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation”. It is not out of the tabernacle of witness, but out of the tabernacle of the congregation. That is to say, that in which He is to meet His people. So that Leviticus stands on that ground, and I think the passage we read in Peter is a direct allusion to Leviticus, only that Peter is insisting that things are to be spiritual, so he says, “yourselves also as ^[p. 401] living stones are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ”.

RSS In Leviticus it was a material building, and they offered up material sacrifices, but in Peter it is a spiritual building and spiritual sacrifices.

JT Yes, I thought that would help to make clear what you said as to worship in John 4. God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.

RSS That sets aside everything that is material.

JT So in the passage in Peter we are on spiritual ground, from which we may proceed. Things are entirely spiritual now. We do not get, I apprehend in 1 Peter 2, as far as the holy place, or the holiest. We do not get beyond the court; but even what was in the court represented what was spiritual; spiritual sacrifices.

RSS You said something as to this scripture in Peter and the end of Ephesians 2. Would you repeat it?

JT I think the reference here does not go beyond the thought that the house is spiritual. It is a spiritual house, without saying that it was the house of God. I think the point is to emphasise that it is spiritual. The apostle was writing to the Jews of the dispersion, and it was well to lead them on to spiritual lines, because they were accustomed to material things.

RSS They were not the losers by not being at Jerusalem.

JT They were to have a new inheritance, unfading and undefiled. They were a spiritual house, a holy priesthood; so they had lost nothing.

WB Would not the holy priesthood take them beyond the court?

JT The service referred to does not go beyond the court, because it refers really to the opening ^[p. 402] chapters of Leviticus. The sacrifices were all offered in the court.

AFM What are they in Christianity? What is the antitype of those sacrifices?

JT Anything that is given up, having God in view, is a spiritual sacrifice. In your mind you are not thinking of the value of the thing materially, but you have a spiritual thought in the gift.

AFM Of course, those sacrifices stood for Christ very distinctly.

JT Oh, they did, but I think the point Peter has in his mind is that things are to be spiritual. No matter what it is that you offer as a gift in regard to God, the thought behind it is that it is spiritual, although it may be material help; “with such sacrifices God is well pleased”. He is not pleased with the material things, but with the motive behind the gift; that which is surrender on your part. We know “the cattle upon a thousand hills” (Psalm 50:10) are His, and the material thing itself is not what ministers pleasure to God. It is the motive that underlies it.

WB I suppose we get an illustration of that in Luke 20, in the two mites offered by the widow.

JT She was spiritual; she was a priest according to Peter’s way of looking at it; she was an offerer; she belonged to the holy priesthood.

WB Hebrews 10 would go further than Peter goes. It speaks of the holiest.

JT That is the reason I suggested it. It leads us further on. It is most important that we should begin on spiritual lines, but Peter does not, as far as the sacrifice is concerned, go beyond the court. But even there it is spiritual. What we might think a trivial thing is spiritual in God’s eye.

BTF Material things would have a spiritual end in view, if properly offered, would they not?

JT That is the point. It is the motive that prompts the gift that God takes account of. So he says, “If thou bring thy gift to the altar and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee” (Matthew 5:23). Now the gift is to be left at the altar. But supposing you do not go back and be reconciled to your brother, the gift loses its value; not its material value, of course, but its spiritual value. It is all a question of the way things are done, what motive is behind them.

GAT It takes a spiritual man to lay aside the things mentioned in the first part of this chapter.

JT A spiritual man would be marked by laying aside those things.

WB The great thing is being acceptable to God; how He approves of it.

JT That is the point; it is to be a spiritual sacrifice. If it is not spiritual, it is not acceptable to God. God is a Spirit. He is not occupied with what is material, because we know that what is material will pass away. What He is occupied with is what is spiritual. Hence, one is tested in giving, because sacrifice is something you give up on account of God. Therefore, you are tested as to the motive behind the giving.

AFM Has not this scripture a collective view? It says, “to whom coming as unto a living stone, ... ye also as lively stones are built up a spiritual house”. I wondered how you connected that with individual sacrifice.

JT It is general. It must take form individually. I am speaking now of the sacrifices. In Leviticus it is any one coming up with an offering.

WB In Hebrews 10 it seems to go no further than the entering, “Having boldness to enter”.

JT What occurs after that is not stated in Hebrews.

WB Where do you get that now?

JT I do not know where you get a concrete presentation of worship. One takes the Psalms as ^[p. 404] an example of worship. What you find at the end of each book is the outgoings of the heart of the psalmist God-ward. The Psalms are well illustrated in Psalm 18, as compared with 2 Samuel 22. It is almost an exact reproduction of David’s song after God had delivered him from the hands of Saul and from the hands of his adversaries; but observe that Psalm 18 begins with, “I will love thee, O Jehovah, my strength”; while 2 Samuel 22 begins, “The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer”. I wanted to point out that when he writes the song it is the celebration of his deliverance, but in inserting it in the book of Psalms, he begins it with the verse quoted, showing he had profited by the experience, and that he not only enjoyed the deliverance, but was now thinking of the Deliverer. So he begins by saying, “I will love thee, O Jehovah, my strength”. That was the great result of the deliverance. He had found salvation, but now is thinking of the Saviour, and he was going to love Him. That is the result of salvation, corresponding in a way with the chapter in Peter, that one may grow up unto salvation, and then you go on to the Lord, “to whom coming”. The psalmist had Jehovah before him, and in the end of each of the books it will be observed that he breaks out in a doxology, “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting”. Now, I think that is what God is seeking to bring about in His people through all the experiences we go through; that He should be before us, and the heart at every opportunity should go out to God. We have it also in Paul, who is, I suppose, the great psalmist of Christianity. Take, for instance, the end of Romans 11.

WB Romans 9:4,5, too; “who are Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

^[p. 405] whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen”.

JT Yes, that is one of them, and in the end of chapter 11 is another; “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things; to whom be glory for ever. Amen”. These are the outgoings of a heart affected by the truth he has been dealing with, and in chapter 16:25 - 27 he says, “Now to him that is able to establish you, according to my glad tidings and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, as to which silence has been kept in the times of the ages, but which has now been made manifest, and by prophetic scriptures, according to commandment of the eternal God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations — the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever. Amen”. That is what I understand to be worship.

WB Do you get an instance of worship in the case of the ten lepers? There were ten got blessing, but only one returned to give glory to God. That is, he prostrates himself before the Lord. Of those in Christendom who receive good and deliverance in a sense, only about one-tenth of the number come out in thus way.

JT Then the man in John 9 is a very notable illustration of it. He illustrates the “works of God”. He was not blind because of his sin nor because his parents sinned, but that the works of God might be manifested in him. In the manifestation of the works of God he worshipped ^[p. 406] the Lord.

BTF So worship could be spoken of as priestly, or is it the outflow of a heart in the knowledge of relationship in the full sense of the term?

JT It is both. But, of course, all the redeemed will be in some sense related to God as Father, for, all the families which are in the heavens and on earth are named of the Father. There are, therefore, degrees, so that the assembly is that to which the Father’s name has been declared. “I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it” (John 17:26). The assembly has a special knowledge, a special declaration of the Father. Now the standard of the assembly’s worship is according to that revelation. Therefore, the worship of the assembly must necessarily be of a higher order than that of any other family.

AFM Is collective worship rendered to Christ?

JT It is surely. He is worthy of our homage.

Rem I thought it is the Father we worship?

JT It is; but the question is raised as to whether the Lord receives it, and He does. The book of Revelation abounds with instances of worship to Him. The elders and the living creatures worship. They give a reason for it. That is a very important thing; that you are able to give a reason for your worship. “The Father seeketh such to worship him” (John 4:23); the One of whom it is said: “Of him, and through him, and to him are all things”. Although having part in the Godhead, the Lord has, become Man to bring it all about, but 1 Corinthians 15 shows that God is the ultimate object for everything. God is to be all in all.

RSS And is it not true, as a general principle, that one divine Person speaks not so much of Himself as of Another? That is, when the Spirit came He was not to speak from Himself, but it was of the Lord and His things; and the Father constantly draws attention to the Son, and the Son constantly draws attention to ^[p. 407] the Father.

JT The apostle Paul makes very clear the Christian’s relationship with God and with Christ. “There is one God, the Father”, he says, “of whom all things, and we for him” (1 Corinthians 8:6). Now that is a clear presentation of our position in regard to God the Father. We are for Him. Then the next statement is “One Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things”. He has effected everything, “and we by him”; not for Him, but by Him. I think that makes the position clear as regards God as an object of veneration and worship, and our relative relationships to Him and to the Son.

BTF You would say that David’s worship was measured by the knowledge he had of God as Jehovah, but New Testament worship would be in the sense that we are brought into the relationship of sons with the Father?

JT Oh, quite, but still the idea of a psalm remains in Christianity, and the idea of a hymn. A psalm is what one has been through experimentally, but a hymn is more objective. In it God is more definitely before the soul.

WCR What is a spiritual song, then?

JT I think the emphasis is on the word spiritual, because there are a great number of different kinds of songs; religious songs, a number that sound very nice, especially to music, and we like to play and sing to the music, but the question is whether they are spiritual. It is quite right to have the outgoing of one’s heart if you have time and have nothing else to do. It says: “Speaking to yourselves” (Ephesians 5:19). That is, you can join in that which is in the song, but the thing to be sure about is, that what you are singing is spiritual, because God has no part in it if it is not, and you do not want to sing anything God cannot have part in. So with the songs of Zion. The songs of Zion were spiritual songs, and they could not be sung in a ^[p. 408] strange land.

BTF Every believer should have his own peculiar psalm. That is, the experience he has passed through with God remains with him ever, and forms a theme of thanksgiving.

RSS And that might come out in what we speak of often as prayer. I mean addressing God; not asking Him for anything, but rather expressing what our brother has just said.

JT Hannah’s prayer, for instance. It is formally called a prayer but there is nothing asked for at all. It is really a song, the outgoing of her heart in the sense of God’s deliverance.

WCR And you get songs in connection with Zechariah, do you not, and Mary?

JB Many of the psalms are expressed in Christ Himself.

JT They are; they rise to that at times.

GWH Worship of the assembly proper is more from the knowledge of divine Persons than from divine intervention.

JT It is; you have God before you. As I said, 2 Samuel 22 is a celebration of God’s deliverance, but you see David is “the sweet psalmist of Israel”, which refers to what God had in the Psalms. 2 Samuel 22 refers to David’s deliverance, but Psalm 18 was in relation to the temple service. In the latter we have love for Jehovah. That was Jehovah’s portion. David is called a man of God, as having ordered the service of the house of God. The Levites really had very little, you might say, to do from the days of Moses until the days of David. David gave them employment, and the employment was to serve Jehovah in song in the temple, but he gave them the songs and the psalms; he gave them the means by which God was to be ministered to in the temple. So that God regards David in a peculiar light in that way, inasmuch as he set up the service. We know Christ has inaugurated the service of God; it is He ^[p. 409] who is the psalmist of Israel, and God loves the praise of His people. He speaks of God as He who inhabits the praises of Israel, so David was figurative of Christ in bringing in the Psalms; that in which God lived and delighted.

WCR And the Lord said; “in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises” (Hebrews 2:12). What would that be?

JT It answers to David. Christ is the Chief Singer. On the cross, Psalm 22, He speaks of God inhabiting the praises of Israel, but as the Lord rises from the dead it is the congregation. “In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee” (verse 22). He would praise God. He had inhabited the praises of Israel, but there would be a new service inaugurated when the Lord arose from the dead.

WCR The theme was the Father’s name.

JT That emphasises the remarks just made. “I will declare thy name unto my brethren”. The praise would be according to the revelation; not now of Israel but of the brethren. “In the midst of the congregation I will praise thee”.

WHF Is it correct to say He leads the praise of His people?

JT I should say He sings through our hearts. He touches our hearts.

HG Does a psalmist indite the psalm and then lead in singing it?

JT That is the idea, I think. David delivered his first psalm after the ark was brought into Zion, and it was a celebration of God’s mercy; God had recovered things on the ground of sovereign mercy. “My heart is inditing a good matter; I speak of the things which I have made touching the King; my tongue is the pen of a ready writer. Thou art fairer than the children of men; grace is poured into thy lips; therefore God hath blessed thee for ever” (Psalm 45:1,2) That is the idea of a ^[p. 410] psalm.

HG Hence the importance of being distinctly under the Head in that way. I was thinking of the Lord’s supper, which brings Christ in as Head in that sense. He takes charge of the whole situation and everything is spiritual then.

JT Sometimes the headings of the Psalms refer to David’s care as to the music; that the melody should be right. “To the chief Musician”. It is repeatedly found. The chief Musician understood the music. You have not only right words, but right music spiritually.

RSS What does “speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs” (Ephesians 5:19) mean?

JT I think that passage is most helpful as to what we have before us, as showing the continuous state of soul suggested as proper to Christianity. That, whilst there is teaching and mutual encouragement, melody to the Lord and thanksgiving to the Father are ever present in the heart; “giving thanks at all times for all things to him who is God and the Father” (verse 20). You see the element of worship there. It is not so periodical as one might think. It is an ever present thing in the heart of the spiritual. Divine Persons are ever referred to.

RSS That expresses what was in our minds in connection with our meetings; that, not only might the saints get encouragement, blessing and refreshment by being here, but, as you were saying, the Lord might receive something, and above all that God the Father might receive something.

HG Do you distinguish between praise and worship?

JT It is not easy to distinguish. It seems to me that any outgoing of the heart Godward in the sense of praise must be included in worship. There may be degrees in it, and I suppose the highest thought of worship is that one is lost as to oneself and one’s benefits even; one is entirely taken up with God, the Father. You are entirely taken up in your intelligence and affections with God revealed in Christ. That I suppose would be the highest thought, so that Paul said: “whether we are beside ourselves it is to God” (2 Corinthians 5:13). God revealed in Christ so commanded his affections and intelligence that he was utterly lost to himself and the benefits that had come to him through Christ. He was beside himself to God.

GWH In John 12 Lazarus says nothing.

HG David sat before the Lord. There was silence in both cases.

JT Will you enlarge on that a little?

HG Of course he afterwards expresses himself. I was simply thinking in regard to the highest form of worship that possibly it is inexpressible; whereas praise and thanks to God can be expressed.

RSS In connection with what our brother was saying as to the difference between praise and worship, is not praise more in connection with what God has done, but worship in connection with what God is; the apprehension in your soul of what God is? It is Himself. It is far beyond anything He has done. What God is lies behind everything that He has done, and you have a sense in your soul that He is the spring and source of all blessing.

JD It would be indicated in the two lines of a hymn we sometimes sing: “The Father’s love, the source of all, Sweeter than all it gives” (26:5). Do you find it difficult to express the thought of worship?

JT I think the highest form of it is in silence. I do not suppose the apostle would be speaking when he was beside himself. It would be a state of attraction in which he would be with God. “Whether we are beside ourselves it is to God”. When he returned to his sober calculations he would no doubt speak to ^[p. 412] the Corinthians, but I do not apprehend he would speak when he was beside himself.

WCR When he said: “Whether in the body I cannot tell, or whether out of the body I cannot tell” (2 Corinthians 12:2), would that allude to it too?

JT I think it would allude to a similar state. If one is beside oneself one is unconscious of material things and conditions. When beside yourself you are governed by other laws.

AFM What connection has what you have been speaking of just now in regard to psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with the holiest in Hebrews 10?

JT I think the holiest is an individual matter, enabling you to regulate your psalm and your hymn and your spiritual song. I apprehend the holiest is that by which one learns how to do things; how to be before God; that you are there in a suitable manner.

EHT Do you learn the ways of God in the sanctuary?

JT Yes, you learn how to be before God rightly. I understand the holiest qualifies us for the assembly.

GAT That is where you learn the end of the first man.

JT Yes, you learn it by seeing the perfect Man in Christ. You learn to disallow what is imperfect by beholding what is perfect. You have the perfect idea.

JS You were saying yesterday that some learn from the experience and exercise of others. Is there not the same danger in the hymns we have to use; that a hymn may be given out not in keeping with the occasion, putting the whole company out of gear?

JT I think that is right. Therefore entering into the holiest is very much parallel to 1 Corinthians 14, which teaches you that you are to use your intelligence, your “understanding”. Spiritual understanding ^[p. 413] is acquired in the holiest. It is by going in there that you get a spiritual understanding. “Then understood I their end” (Psalm 73:17). 1 Corinthians 14 shows that you are governed by your understanding; you know what to do; so that if you have a psalm you know where to set it; you know just where it fits. If another has a psalm you do not put it in his place. So it says; “when ye come together each one of you hath a psalm” (verse 26). You are supposed to have one.

RSS Does that refer to your own spiritual devotions?

JT Yes, what you have acquired with God in your daily exercise. “What is it then, brethren? whenever ye come together, each of you has a psalm”. What are you going to do with your psalm? It is supposed you have one. One thing that is very objectionable in the assembly is crowding. It is said here; “each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation”. There is a variety of things. The point is to regulate these things so that there may be no crowding; that the right psalm is presented at the right time. Now I apprehend that the understanding which governs all is acquired in the holiest. You will notice in the passage you read in Hebrews 10, that the idea of assembling comes in after the holiest “not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together”. At Corinth they did not forsake that. In fact they came together for the worse sometimes, because they were not regulated. So going into the holiest enables you to be there for good and for edification. Therefore, if you have a psalm you are not to crowd it in. You are to wait. That is a great feature of the assembly; that we are to wait on one another.

JD What do you mean by going into the holiest? How do we go in practically? I think it would help if you would say something about going in.

JT It is, in a simple way, being enabled by ^[p. 414] the moral power you have in your soul to dismiss the things that are material, and take up the things of God, and quietly meditate on the revelation of God in Christ, and on Christ as before God; the order of man that is before God. You contemplate that. We are apt to be legal about it. You might do it in reading the Scriptures, or it might come in prayer at any time. The thought comes into your heart as to what God is and what Christ is before God. The effect becomes power in your soul, and the next time you have to do with the brethren, with ministry, you are helped by it.

JD The holiest then is a Person rather than a place?

JT It is what Christ is before God. It is so difficult for us to get rid of what is material; the idea of a material place, whereas Peter is endeavouring to help the saints by using the word spiritual; “spiritual house” and “spiritual sacrifices”. The holiest is a spiritual thought.

GAT Psalm 73 shows how it affects a man to enter there. When he comes out he says: “Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee”.

Rem You lose there for a moment the sense of time and scenes around you.

WHF We reach the millennium in a way there.

JT And I am afraid we are apt to be legal about it. The holiest is often reached in reading the Word and pondering on how the Lord did things, and what He is.

WHF There is a lot of danger of our having in our minds a place; it is Christ Himself really.

JT When He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself, there was the idea of the holiest.

HG Mary at the feet of Jesus in Luke 10 was ^[p. 415] there.

JD There is a thought that it is the advanced brothers that go there, but I feel what you say about its being open to all. The blood of Christ gives title to go there, and it belongs to the weakest believer in Christ.

WCR In your address last night you spoke about three mountains, the latter being the mountain of contemplation. I thought at the time you perhaps alluded to the holiest.

JT I did; it is really for contemplation.

LM What do you understand by boldness?

JT Full liberty. The blood of Christ has settled everything. There are certain things said: “Having therefore, brethren, boldness for entering into the holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, ... let us approach with a true heart”. Everything is finished. The word having is a great word there. You have the necessary things.

Ques Must there be a company for worship?

JT I think not. The man in John 9 did homage individually. The things we have in Hebrews 10 are for every believer. We have the new and living way and the great Priest over the house of God. It is in having these things we have liberty to enter. It is well to note, however, that the Father seeks worshippers (John 4).

RSS Where does priesthood come in in connection with what we were speaking of?

JT I suppose as having to do with God we are all priests. Even in the court we are regarded as priests; a royal priesthood.

RSS But are we there in company with our great Priest, with Aaron, so to speak?

JT Perhaps so. Hebrews does not connect priesthood with the saints. I think we are priests necessarily, as entering; because none but priests could enter according to the type. The contrast is between Aaron and us (Hebrews 9:7,8). Even Aaron ^[p. 416] did not have liberty. He could only go there once a year. “The Holy Spirit showing this, that the way of the holy of holies has not yet been made manifest while as yet the first tabernacle has its standing”. Even Aaron did not have liberty.

RSS But then it says: “And having a great Priest over the house of God, let us approach”.

JT I think in drawing near, entering the holiest, we certainly are priests. We could not enter otherwise, although it is not so stated.

RSS But is it not in the consciousness that we are, so to speak, anointed, and that we come in under the shadow of our High Priest?

JT Only here it is over the house of God He is said to be Priest. The house of God takes the place of the tabernacle in Hebrews.

RSS And what does that embrace?

JT All Christians. “Whose house are we” (Hebrews 3:6). We are God’s house, so that in that way the idea of true worship is very intimately connected with the idea of the house.

GAT I thought in connection with true worship we come as sons. He takes His place as Son and we with Him in the Father’s presence, and there the true worship flows out.

JT There can be no doubt about that, but it is not Hebrews. Hebrews does not go beyond title to enter. What takes place when you enter is not made clear. It is more to realise than describe. Like many other things, it has to be discovered in one’s soul.

BTF Is your thought in saying that Christians are not said to be priests in Hebrews that the Priest is Christ?

JT Yes. The saints were low down, and needed the sympathy and succour of Christ in order to enter. We have a great Priest over the house of God. In Hebrews the emphasis is on the ^[p. 417] High Priest.

BTF But then other Scriptures indicate that believers are priests; (1 Peter 2).

JT And as we were saying, we could not enter the holiest unless as priests.

WCR I am not quite clear that worship is not a collective thought. It says, “we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father”.

JT I should not say that it is not, but neither would I say that an individual could not worship God. I am quite sure that the Father is not seeking a worshipper. It does not say that. He is seeking worshippers. Revelation 11:1 says, “measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship in it”. We are measured in that light, as worshippers. In regard to entering the holiest, it is not so far away as people sometimes think, nor are there so few that enter as we think. You can tell by the way a brother speaks to the Lord, by the manner of his ministry, by the hymns he gives out, when he gives it out, by his remarks on the things of God, and by other things, whether a man has entered the holiest.

AFM Do you qualify for this by means of the court and the holy place? Is not there a gradual entering into it?

JT Quite so. One begins by sacrifice. There is no possibility of going into the holiest without sacrifice. If your will is not accustomed to surrender you have not qualified for the court even, but if you qualify for the court in the way of spiritual sacrifices; that is, by surrender, then you come to prayer, because if you give up something the soul turns to God and you get recompense. That is the holy place. But the holiest is not sacrifice, nor is it prayer. It is what God is as revealed in Christ, and what Christ is before God. That is what the holiest is.

WCR And would you not say the way a man discerns and judges of things outside exposes whether ^[p. 418] he has ever been in or not? “Then understood I their end”, says the psalmist (Psalm 73:17).

JT That is another test. One would not like to lower the standard and make it too common, but I think it is well to be simple and encourage one another. There is more evidence of this in a practical way than we give credit for.

BTF Did not Mary get there in a simple way? She sat at the Lord’s feet.

JT And so the circle in the end of Mark 3. The crowd was more or less in the way until then. I was referring to the idea of a crowd. We must not crowd things in the assembly. The crowd are not opposed, but they may hinder, nevertheless. They pressed around the door, but in the end of Mark 3 it says the crowd were sitting around the Lord. They are not called disciples. They are simply the crowd, but they have come to sit. That is the point. They have come to sit down and listen to Christ. One has often seen that in the meetings. There is a crowd, but presently there is a subduing effect because of the presence of the Lord, and instead of activity there is quietness and subjection. That is the effect of the presence of the Lord.

Now His mother and His brethren came at this juncture and they stood without, it says, asking that He should go out to them. But He was inside speaking and the crowd was listening; sitting down and listening. A great change had come over the crowd. The effect of the Lord’s ministry had brought about subjection, quietness, and attention, and so the Lord said: “Who is my mother or my brethren?” He looked around in the circuit on those sitting around Him, and said: “Behold my mother and my brethren; for whosoever shall do the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother” (verses 33 - 35). They were doing the will of God. They were regarded as the ^[p. 419] brethren of the Lord. In a way they were in the holiest. They had profited by it. I mention all this because I think it is encouraging to young Christians to make clear that the privileges of the holiest belong to all. If you are subdued and learn to listen in the assembly, and appreciate Christ as He is before God, that is an indication that you have reached the holiest.