ELEVATION IN THE WILDERNESS

^[p. 97] ELEVATION IN THE WILDERNESS

Exodus 19:1-3; Exodus 19:17; Exodus 24:9 - 18

JT We have the idea of elevation stressed as in the wilderness in these scriptures, and also of course in the land; particularly we see it in the gospel of Matthew. David makes much of the idea of mountains — elevation, and, in a general way, before we look into the verses read, it may be helpful to call attention to Moses’ remarks as to the mountains in the blessing of Joseph in Deuteronomy 33:15, “By the best things of the ancient mountains, and by the precious things of the everlasting hills”. He introduces that thought in the blessing of Joseph, and we read also, in the blessing of Zebulun and Issachar, how people were invited to the mountain. The thought of the mountain no doubt alludes to Genesis where, for our present purpose, chapter 22 should be noted, that is, where Isaac was to be offered up; it is called the mount of Jehovah there and provision should be made there. In Exodus the matter is made very specific in the appearance of Jehovah to Moses at the bush at Horeb, and the word was that Israel was to serve Jehovah upon this mountain, namely Horeb, where God had appeared to Moses, as it is said, at the thorn-bush. So that the matter is set in that relation in Genesis, and it gives character to the service of God as inaugurated there. Chapter 19 brings in the thought strikingly and shows how God, in the Mediator, would stress the thought. Israel encamped, we are told, in the wilderness of Sinai, and then, “Israel encamped there before the mountain. And Moses went up to God, and Jehovah called to him out of the mountain”, and, that point being established, the Mediator has a peculiar place in this respect, as in others. It says, “And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God; and ^[p. 98] they stood at the foot of the mountain”, and then we are told, “Jehovah came down on mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain”. Exodus 19:20. So the Mediator’s place is made clear in this respect and the people are brought to the mountain, brought to meet God, but at the foot of the mount; that is our place there; then there is the idea of ascension for the people, not only for the Mediator, but for the people. Between chapters 19 and 24 we have four chapters which are really on another matter, namely, how Israel was to be in the land, the question of the terms on which they were to be in the land, and then the Spirit of God brings us back again to the idea of the wilderness and the mountain in chapter 24 in order to bring out that God’s thought for the people, too, was elevated, so that what is set out in the Mediator is then opened up to us. That is what I was thinking of, having in mind that the assembly service is in view in this book; it is a question of the service of God; that is what is connected with the mountain in chapter 3. It is just to bring before us this great principle of assembly service, even in the wilderness, that is, this elevation that is opened up to us.

HH You mean it is not all on a level plane, but the mountains indicate something on a higher level?

JT That is it, but then, in the land the same thing is true; in the eternal state of things there are higher levels too: there are the everlasting hills, as well as the ancient mountains. The Lord, we are told, went beyond all the heavens; Paul went to the third heaven; there are lower levels here, but yet elevated. All this is to instruct our minds, to form us.

EG Does it show that christians are a heavenly people and are to inhabit heaven, not the earth?

JT That is what is in mind, that God has for His people elevation and very extended too, in variety. We begin on a low level: Romans, I think,

^[p. 99] is the level on which moral questions are all settled, so that Moses brings them out to meet God and they stood at the foot of the mount. I have to begin there, I think.

Ques Does Abraham set out the idea in the chapter you quoted, Genesis 22, where he introduced the thought of worship at the beginning, “I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you”? Genesis 22:5.

JT Very good. That was a proper thing there. It shows how the minds of the saints were being instructed and stored with right thoughts from the outset, so that, referring back to the ancient mountains, it must be that blessing is attached to them. Noah would have come into the course of instruction, for in truth it is that; it is building up in one saint and another, so that all the instruction comes to us, the assembly having the first place with God, and it is now for us to make use of it and get it rightly in our minds.

Rem So, in that way, there is a proper sphere for the service of God, and the service of the Mediator would introduce us into that sphere that we might be in it according to God.

JT Yes, I think we see the idea in Moses in Exodus, typical of Christ. The movements of Christ as seen in the New Testament are for us, including “all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us” Acts 1:21; in all that time there were elevations too, the Lord going up, and, as He ascended finally, attention is called to the manner of it, “They beholding him” Acts 1:9, as if that were part of the instruction, and that He would come back, the descent would be in keeping with that. In the interval we have all the instruction to carry out.

FI Have you in mind that, as we take account of the Lord as Mediator in the wilderness setting in ^[p. 100] His place of elevation, we should be brought to such a position?

JT That is the service of Christ for us, I think. He leads in every respect and particularly in this thought of going up, ascending and descending. When on earth He spoke to Nathanael about the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man, that would be something to be seen; He was an Object here below, but then there was His own ascent, “they beholding him”. Acts 1:9.

Ques Do you think the teaching of the kingdom, closing with chapter 18, would bring about a state in the saints to be able to sit down composedly at the foot of the mountain?

JT That seems to be the thought. It brings in another thing, namely Jethro, a very important man as a type here. It is not in mind now in the subject, but it is a very interesting matter that that chapter comes in between chapter 17, that treats of the Spirit at Rephidim, and the matter of ascension; we have ascension there as a matter of fact.

HH I notice you refer to Deuteronomy 33. It says, “The best things of the ancient mountains” Deuteronomy 33:15, and a note says, instead of ‘things’ the word ‘head’ may be used; and then it says, “The precious things of the everlasting hills”. I suppose that would encourage us to have mountains in our thoughts and movements.

JT It seems so — the ancient mountains and the everlasting hills. I suppose we have to come to the New. Testament for everlasting hills; the ancient mountains would bring in the old things: there are the new things and there are the old things, and no doubt Ararat and the mountain of Jehovah in Genesis 22 would help on that line.

PL Would the ancient mountains cover more the covenant position and the everlasting hills ^[p. 101] allude to the elevation peculiar to christianity in the assembly?

JT I think so, especially as attention is called to the Lord as He went up, they beholding Him, and then it is said He “shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven”, Acts 1:11 the manner of His going in.

Ques Does that abstraction from the activities of men involve expectancy in relation to the mountain? If He were coming again, for instance, they would be expectant, with their eyes heavenward.

JT Quite so, in their hearts anyway. The two say, “Why stand ye gazing up into heaven?” Acts 1:11, for He had gone out of their view. They seemed to go back into Jerusalem with the thought of elevation; they went to the upper room, that is, instead of being occupied with their literal position; the point is they are to go and carry on with that great thought in their minds; it is the principle of withdrawal from this world, getting away from it.

Ques Do you connect that with the wilderness position?

JT I think that is what is seen here, for the four chapters I have alluded to really teach how Israel is to be in the land and how the worship is to be carried on there; they build an altar there, so that they pass over time; we have time in our minds, but God is saying, I have not finished with the wilderness yet. It is not that it is simply accidental; we have not come into it accidentally or perforce because we have to go somewhere, but God would say, I have more in My mind about that. So He gives instructions in chapters 21 to 23, and He comes back to this matter, namely that of Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders. Now the next thing is, what will the Mediator do in the light of this? There is instruction in all this. That is chapter 24 ^[p. 102] Do I understand you to mean that the people encamped before the mountain is to bring this great matter of elevation primarily before us? Are we to see it primarily in Christ?

JT I think that is the thought. “In the third month after the departure of the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai: they departed from Rephidim” — that is alluding to the Spirit, as I understand it, the great battle in regard of the Spirit, meaning our state of soul, that we have had to do with death. Romans 7 is passed, we have left that position, and they “came into the wilderness of Sinai, and encamped in the wilderness”, and then it says, “Israel encamped there before the mountain”. Now they are in a position suitable to the present purpose of God, and hence we have Moses going up to God. The Mediator has liberty to do that, I suppose alluding to Christ personally. He has always liberty to do that, and then Jehovah called to him out of the mountain, and so forth. I think the idea is that the people are where God would have them, and, in truth, as we learn the flesh, as in chapter 17 at the battle of Rephidim, and arrive at the thought of the Spirit, we are where God would have us; now He can do something with us. They accepted the wilderness and they pitched before the mountain, they encamped; an encampment is an educational position for a period of time. So now they are ready for resources, the thought is carried down from Genesis 22 that the mountain is a place of provision, and they are ready for that. Now the principle is Moses going up.

HH Do you think that Hebrews would allow for these thoughts of elevation? The position is a wilderness one, yet opportunities are provided for the saints, as it were, to take on a higher level, as, for instance, it says in Hebrews, “Ye have come to mount Zion”. Hebrews 12:22.

^[p. 103] There you have a mountain, and there is the consciousness of the high priest having gone in, appearing before the face of God for us.

JT That is, I think, in keeping with what we are saying; the scriptures, as we have remarked, are full of it, and the thought is instruction in chapter 24. Jehovah says to Moses, “Come up to me into the mountain, and be there”, as much as to say, You are needed up here; this is the place now to carry on from, “and I will give thee the tables of stone”, that is, divine principles, applied to ourselves, “and the law, and the commandment that I have written, for their instruction”. That instruction is to be from heaven; Moses, the Mediator, is to be there, and the instruction is to be given from there, so that the whole of Scripture, I believe, is instructive. The ends of the ages have come upon us, and it is for us to gather up all these things, and, as we gather them up, we are material for the assembly, we are usable, we are intelligent material; He can take us on and use us; we are available to Him, not simply as members of a congregation, but we are alive in intelligence, being instructed, as it says, “The wise shall understand” Daniel 12:10; we understand, and are ready now for the Lord, whatever He has in mind.

Rem I was thinking of that in relation to expectancy. If we are brought to the foot of the mountain it is with expectant hearts with regard to what God may have to say to us.

JT Well, you feel there is something above you. “Be there”, Jehovah says, and it is a question of instruction.

PH Moses is called up into the mountain to be there when he and the others are in a much more elevated position than the one which is first suggested in chapter 19. They have already gone up. What is there in that for us?

^[p. 104] JT I suppose the allusion would be to the progress of the teaching of the apostles. The twelve do not give us much on that line; their names are in the foundations, but Paul gives us elevation. I suppose now they are on a higher level than in Romans; in Romans you are at the foot of the mountain, “Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? ... He that hath clean hands” Psalm 24:3,4, those that are morally right. We must have clean hands or we cannot go up. Now it is assumed they can go up; Moses takes the people in hand to make them ready for that; God does not tell them what to do. From verse 3 to the end of verse 8 it is the action of the Mediator, so it says, “Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the judgements; and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words that Jehovah has said will we do! And Moses wrote all the words of Jehovah, and rose up early in the morning, and built an altar under the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. And he sent the youths of the children of Israel, and they offered up burnt-offerings, and sacrificed sacrifices of peace-offering of bullocks to Jehovah” Exodus 24:3 - 5, and then we have the blood sprinkled on the book and on the people, and then they went up; that is, the moral element is settled. It is Christ taking the thing in hand in relation to what is due to God, and also to fit us for this elevation. It is progress really in the teaching that is in mind, and how we need that!

Ques “I have borne you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself” Exodus 19:4; is that before us, and is moral work going on then to fit us for that condition?

JT God has brought us to Himself. That would be in a moral sense, of course; that is Romans really, not on the mountain yet. Elevation follows that; He is speaking from the mountain, but He ^[p. 105] does not say He has brought them up there; it is the moral thought, but elevation is more personal, that you are worthy of going up there.

Ques Do you connect the first ascent of the seventy with the ministry of the twelve and the ascent of Moses and Joshua with Paul’s ministry bringing out what is more distinctive; and then, over and above that, Moses’ position, typical of Christ as above all heavens?

JT That is good. I do not think Romans implies anything beyond that we are brought to God; Exodus 19 does not take us beyond that; they are brought to God, and not only so by Himself, but it is the work of the Mediator. I think we ought to notice that God does not refer to the Mediator in saying, ‘I have brought you to Myself’; it is His own action, but now the Mediator comes in, that is what Christ is to us. And He leads the people out of the camp; the camp is right; they took up that position themselves; applying it to assembly service it would mean we come together and break bread; that is our matter, it is a public matter, it is a camp really: we are pitching, but that is not the end, that is only the beginning, and the Mediator comes in there and He brings them out of that position to meet God. It is not simply that God brings us to Himself in the gospel, but the action of the Mediator in beginning all the great service that is in mind, knowing, as He does, what is in the mind of God; so that He brings out of that position, the camp, which in itself was right, to God — not up yet, but to God; He is in it now. It is one thing for God to bring me to Himself in the gospel, but it is another thing for Christ to bring me with others to a certain position to meet with God.

Rem In chapter 19 there seems to be an expressed desire on the part of Jehovah to meet with the people, that they “may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee also for ever”. Exodus 19:9 I think these chapters are intended to show how we come to value Christ and how He must have His place. Of course hierarchical christianity is left out; it is a question of Christ, first as Mediator and then as Priest. He is acting as Himself here, the Mediator; He knows God and He wants us to meet God, but to meet Him at the foot of the mountain; it is a level place so far. And then God opens up, in chapters 21 - 23, what His thoughts are in view of the future. You are in the wilderness actually and He returns to this position in chapter 24.

AJG Then are these chapters, 20 - 23, to enable us to move up, according to chapter 24, with greater dignity, as heavenly minded?

JT I think, having this great prospect before us, what is in these four chapters includes Christ as the Lover of God, the Lover of the assembly, and all that. Great things are opened up to us in these four chapters, and then God comes back to the wilderness again, in chapter 24, as if we are more ready for going up. If I understand my heavenly prospect, that I am going up in truth, why not come into it now in a provisional way?

Ques Is that why the nobles are mentioned?

JT Exactly; there is the anticipation of what we are to be in the land.

PH “Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the judgments”. Exodus 24:3. Does that expression, “all the judgments” cover these four chapters you have spoken of? I notice in the beginning of the chapter it says, “These are the judgments which thou shalt set before them” Exodus 21:1.

JT Yes. Now before those four chapters Moses had gone up, but then the people are to go up, and Moses would say, What about this? God wants you ^[p. 107] to go up, but what about those words? I think it is typical. Of course it may be used as contrast in the teaching of christianity rightly, but we may use it typically, that these three chapters enrich us, they give us to see what we are to be in prospect, but it is in the wilderness at the foot of the mountain, and God would say, You are capable of more, and I want you to get it. The wilderness is a provisional thing, as I understand it, so that, when you come to chapter 24, you are still in the wilderness and take on this thought of elevation. Down to the end of verse 11 the actual mountain or place of our ascent is not mentioned; it is mentioned in regard to the building of the pillars, but as a place it is not mentioned, it is a provisional thought; but after verse 11 you will find the word is mentioned very frequently, that Moses is going there, and he is to be there, that Christ is there in the interim.

Ques So that His being there fixedly would not refer so much to the glory of His Person but to the glory of His mediatorship?

JT Yes.

EG In chapters 20 - 23 if we are really to be here active in the service of God, it means we have to understand our heavenly position. Take a man like J.N.D., how his hymns speak of the future and going to be with Christ in the heavenly position!

JT And in truth I believe, through the goodness of God, in this revival in which we now have part, the first great thing was to open up the heavenly and eternal side — all things made clear — and then our part. Ephesians is said to have been the best read part of scripture in those times; the saints were taking it into their minds in prospect, not so much entering into it. Now I think the Lord has brought us round to taking up things in practice and taking up the concrete thought of them, and included in all this is the service of God. It is a ^[p. 108] provisional matter, but all these wonderful thoughts are to add richness to us in the thoughts we are taking up now in our present weakness and small conditions. What would you say?

Rem That is interesting. I was going to enquire as to what you have already pointed out, when it speaks of the seventy going up, that it is confined to the thought of going up, no place being mentioned; it is more than positional.

JT It is the state of our souls.

Rem But with Christ it is position.

JT After verse 12 it is the fixed position of the Mediator, so it says, “Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain. And Moses was on the mountain forty days and forty nights”. That is the provisional period.

Ques So do I gather that the book of Exodus has the wilderness position in mind, but with the heavenly thought in the minds of the saints?

JT That is the thought as I see it; what do you say?

PL Well, we “have come to mount Zion” Hebrews 12:22; of course that is a more extended thought, but is the thought of elevation there laying hold of the Hebrews?

JT That is right; the whole range of things, seven or eight things. We have come to mount Zion; it is just in keeping with all this as enriching our souls. We come to mount Zion “and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven” Hebrews 12:22,23 — another great thought, registered in heaven; that is the elevation; and then other things on a lower level, but you get all those great things first. “And to God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect; and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel”. Hebrews 12:23,24.

^[p. 109] Now you will observe we come back again, we go up and come down again, and that is what we get in Exodus.

Rem But as coming down you bring that light in your soul.

JT Yes, you are an Ephesian coming back to Romans and Corinthians.

Rem So these things would support the saints as in the acceptance of reproach here as in the next chapter.

JT Quite so, you see how great you are.

EG Is “To God the judge of all” Hebrews 12:23 the highest thought?

JT Not exactly, because it is a relative thought; you need it in view of what you are coming back to.

EG Is it a central thought?

JT Yes, it is a great central thought, and it is needed. Look at the condition of the nations now; we have to carry on provisionally in the midst of all these things; how great a thing it is to have the light of God in our souls!

AJG It is like Daniel whose name means, God is judge, as though that was his support in the circumstances in which he was.

JT Quite so, and no one brings that side out more than he does. The position of the nations is a constant menace to the saints; well, God is above that. “The spirits of just men made perfect” Hebrews 12:23 — well, God will come amongst the brethren who are just; that is what we come down to, what we get in our meetings. And then first, “To Jesus, mediator of a new covenant” Hebrews 12:24; we come back here to how we are to be at liberty in the meetings. This lifts us up and then lets us down, as the sheet was taken up and let down, and goes up finally.

Ques Would you say a word as to how this would affect us at the Supper, the thought of moral elevation in the service of God? We have been ^[p. 110] perhaps a good deal occupied with the position of matters, but would this chapter 24 help us to take on the thought of assembly service properly?

JT You see how you come back to “Jesus the mediator” and then to “the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel”. Hebrews 12:24. You say, I know my place is in heaven, but I have had to do with things here through the week. But the idea is now we will begin over again at the foot of the mountain.

Ques Would not Moses saying, “Behold the blood of the covenant” be something like the touch of the Lord on our spirits?

JT Quite so.

PL The tribes of Jah go up, and then you come back again, for there are set thrones for judgment, “God the judge of all” Hebrews 12:23, then you “pray for the peace of Jerusalem” Psalm 122:6, and “for my brethren and companions’ sakes I will now say, Peace be within thee”. Psalm 122:8. Is that the practical situation among the brethren?

JT Quite so. You can see that in the Songs of Degrees from which you quote, the same thing is there. You begin at the low level, “Woe is me, that I sojourn in Meshech” Psalm 120:5, but, “I lift up mine eyes unto the mountains”. Psalm 121:1. He has light in his soul, he knows about Zion and he is going there. What a blessed thing it is to go through all the experiences with the Mediator, He is with us all the time, but He goes higher. Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel go up; He goes higher, but still He is with us.

Ques Does verse 11 show we are filling out the position for the service of God?

JT Quite so. “Upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand; also they saw God, and did eat and drink”. They are fit for the place — nobles. The higher we go, the greater we are; we are not strangers there.

^[p. 111] Ques The last word the people say to God before they go up is ‘obedient’; is that an important moral thought in going up?

JT Very nice. Such a people can go up. God knew that; He knows what we are equal to and calls us up, so that the epistle to the Hebrews gives boldness of access.

Ques You have mentioned elsewhere, in regard to John 13, the need for a touch from the Lord, whatever we may do by way of self-judgment and so on; it is imperative that the Lord must touch us and help if the service of God is to take place. Do you think in chapter 24 we get prefigured some service of Christ in relation to the cup in the Supper?

JT I think so. The part Moses has corresponds with what is experienced. We come together to do a certain thing, but then He joins us, and we look for that. There is always freshness; we go through the whole thing again, and I think the constant action of Moses is to bring that before us.

Rem I was thinking of its coming directly before they go up; the attempt to rise without that touch is to attempt something we cannot manage.

JT Well, I think it is very beautiful to see how, in the New Testament, the Lord helps people, His constant activity on our behalf. He compels them to go into the boat; they are without Him. In Mark He made as if He would go further, as if to say, ‘You are not going on too well’; but in Matthew He walks on the water and He says, “It is I”. Peter says, “If it be thou, bid me come unto thee” Matthew 14:27,28; that is a better state of things. John says they were in trying circumstances, and he tells us how much they had rowed; they were making headway. The Lord joins them and they were at the end immediately, showing there is more power there in John; and I think the Lord comes in in that way, and, according ^[p. 112] to the state of the meeting, you get ends or you do not get them: sometimes we do not get anything.

PL Is that in a suitable Mark setting of levites where the care of the churches is to be carried and we see what the Lord feels about the situation? Is it a word to levites in that way?

JT I think it is, and even Luke helps us — the Lord stood in their midst. It does not say He comes; that thought was not in His mind, He just stood there, but in John He came and stood. I think Mark would say, Well, first of all you have a good deal of light and privilege but the state is not right, and you may not get the Lord; He may go further, you may miss Him.

Ques Does He not delay coming in Mark? In the evening He saw them, but He awaits the fourth watch (Mark 6:48).

JT Quite so, He gives them full opportunity to go further.

PL Space for repentance.

PH What is involved in the thought of nobles in this chapter?

JT I think how you are up there; you are equal to the place up there; Hebrews would make us that, I think. Hebrews would make us bold.

Ques Would it be reached practically under David in the princely offerings of those who offered? This is the light of that in our souls.

JT Quite so. You have more than the Mediator, you have the sweet psalmist of Israel there, the inaugurator of the service of God.

Ques I was wondering whether the transparent sapphire would indicate the scope of what is before us. We are brought to God; with the Mediator all things would be clear. Would it involve the understanding of the glory of God in all His ways?

JT Quite so, ‘Heavenly light makes all things bright’ (12:^[p. 113] 3).

PH Say a little more, please, about what was under His feet.

JT Well, I suppose it is the ground we are on as elevated. Moses and Aaron and the others went up; it does not say they went up to a place, it is just the idea of going up, “and they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire”. It is a created sphere; it is not light unapproachable, it is what God comes into on our account, transparent sapphire, and as it were the form, or body, of heaven for clearness. It would seem as if everything is clear; there is nothing mystical; it is the ground on which God is with us, and, in a way, the ground we may take with Him. What He stood on is like the terms on which He is with us, but it is a created sphere; we will never get into the uncreated sphere, we are creatures always. The Mediator goes higher; He goes beyond the heavens.

Ques Does it fit in with 2 Corinthians 3?

JT Well, going up is more than the covenant; when we come to verses 9, 10 and 11, we have ascent, which is a thought beyond that.

Rem I was thinking of the transforming.

JT There is no transforming here; it is a work under the feet of God, it is the ground on which God is, I think, that is in mind, and we are brought up to it, not that it is said they stood on that. It is the ground on which God is but it is on created ground; we cannot know Him otherwise.

AJG You mean it suggests the economy into which He has come so that we might be brought to know Him.

JT It is what is intelligible to us; it is God coming into our condition.

Ques Do you think that Paul’s doxology in Romans 11 shows him to be on this ground with ^[p. 114] God?

JT I think that is good, Romans helps in this in many ways. You get it in the very first chapter, “The Creator, who is blessed for ever”. Romans 1:25.

Ques Do you think the sense these would have of what God was, the ground He was on, would enter into the response He looked for: “Let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them”? Exodus 25:8. Would it give a peculiar sense of the grace that desired to be with them in wilderness circumstances? Do you think that would add lustre to the contributions?

JT I think so. The house of God in its provisional setting now is composed of a heavenly people. You do not get the house of God in Romans or in Corinthians, properly; it belongs to Ephesians; it is a heavenly people down here. How could I provide conditions for God, having seen Him up there, save as I have been up there?

Rem So that the contributions that went to make the sanctuary were really heavenly.

JT They must be. If we are to make God a dwelling place, we must see His circumstances up there. God says, as it were, I am content to be without the pavement; that is, He is sacrificing to be with us. The tabernacle was a figurative representation of things above in heaven, but the flooring is that God says, ‘I have travelled with you all these years in a tent and a tabernacle’.

PL Does John’s allusion to the Lord tabernacling amongst us show that grace has dispensed with the pavement?

JT I think so.

EG It is an extraordinary thing that Nadab and Abihu sank as low as they did according to Leviticus 10.

JT Yes, “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen”. Revelation 2:5. Their guilt was all the greater because they had been up so ^[p. 115] high.

PH You referred earlier to the fact that it is a matter of mind. Do we carry these two positions on together, being up there in Exodus 24, and preparation for the position down here where God would graciously be with us? Does one prepare for the other?

JT Certainly, one should never give up his heavenly calling. Carry it in your heart when you are doing your business, or teaching in a school, or whatever it may be; the occupation tends to bring us down and the idea is to begin over again. It is a very, very blessed thought.

PL ‘Fresh from God’s exhaustless tides’. (76:2).

Ques Would the epistle to the Philippians show us how christians live in the heavenly circumstances? Paul speaks of minding heavenly things and then being content in whatever circumstances he is.

JT I think so. Philippians is the heavenly man here; Ephesians is the heavenly man up there. It is a present thing, time is left out there; He has done it: “has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies”. Ephesians 2:6.

EG Did you say before that the Lord is hampered in His work in us if we do not, in some measure, apprehend Colossians and Ephesians?

JT Well, we are not capable of the assembly. He cannot take us on; this divine thought is to have our intelligence. Paul, in Ephesians, stresses the fact that he knew, and he says, I want you to know that I know. Then the next thing is they should know; the thing is knowable, so that the more we know spiritually, the more capable we are of joining the Lord. I believe it is important for the brethren to keep in mind that in the revival the prophetic side was opened up to us and then the heavenly side stressed, but more in an objective way. It was a question of opening the thing up for ^[p. 116] us, but now we have other things come in. The great thought forty-five years ago was the reality of eternal life, that it is a thing to be enjoyed; and then subsequently the thought of the service of God. And then, about thirty years ago, the thought was put out that the ground of the assembly is resurrection, which is not true. Christianity is a heavenly thing, it goes up and comes down and goes up again.

HH Forty-five years ago the attack was on the heavenly side, was it not?

JT Yes, they were making everything objective, and, if you keep on the objective side only, you have nothing but theory; you want the concrete thought, and hence eternal life was to be entered into and enjoyed: Lay hold on it, as Paul says to Timothy. Israel’s ground will be resurrection; christianity is on heavenly ground, the assembly is heavenly.

AJG I am not sure I follow the bearing on us at the present time of what you said as to God graciously dispensing with the flooring, the pavement of sapphire, so to speak.

JT I think it is to bring out His love that is ready to join us down here where we are. But these references to elevation, I think, are to show us that provisionally we can go up, even in wilderness circumstances..

AJG You do not surrender anything in regard to the wilderness position in going up?

JT No. God comes down to our side, but with a view to our going up.

HH Cherishing the truth of the house of God helps us to appreciate the thought of going up. Would you say it does not exactly connect itself either with Romans or Corinthians, hence the going up and the thought of the house of God are correlated?

JT I think so, the house is composed of what is heavenly.

^[p. 117] Ques Do you think if we hold the heavenly side as light only, there will be a tendency to overlook the wilderness position?

JT Quite so, and God is bringing them back to the wilderness.

Rem I wondered if Hosea would bear on it. “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt” Hosea 11:1; but you also get the alluring her and speaking to her heart, as though she would arrive at that thought through that process; — bringing her back to that. And really every Lord’s day is the same thing with us, you come to the idea no longer Baali but husband; you come into a closer relationship.

EG Is that why we come to the Supper again?

JT I think so, and it is worth while, for it is a fresh view of Christ every week.