WHAT THE SAINTS ARE TO GOD

WHAT THE SAINTS ARE TO GOD

Ephesians 1:17,18; Exodus 19:5,6; Isaiah 43:1; Isaiah 43:6,7; 2 Chronicles 5:11 - 14

JT The passage in Ephesians is generally known to us; it brings before us, perhaps more strikingly than any other, what the saints are to God. We are to know this; it is the subject of the apostle’s prayer that we may know this; it is founded on a certain state already there, as he says, “Having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is in you, and the love which ye have towards all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention of you at my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart, so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints”. Ephesians 1:15 - 18. The Lord being here, seen as the Father’s glory, we have glory in its greatest features and a rich expression, the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints. With this verse in our minds, we may be helped in looking at the Old Testament to see the history of this great subject. The verses read are only representative, for there are many others bearing on the same subject, but Exodus 19 gives us the beginning as regards the position in us. Of course we have to begin with counsel, and God reaching His counsels from His own side, but what is in mind now is to show how the saints are seen practically, that is through creation and through formation, two words used in this ^[p. 2] subject. The first thought is obedience; in a way that enters into assembly service as we had it here this morning, what the saints are, and how the saints come before us as God’s inheritance; it is not what we are merely according to counsel, but what we are as created and formed. The passage in 2 Chronicles brings the history of it before us, indicative of God’s inheritance, what He found in Israel typically, what He finds in us as seen in Ephesians. The glory filling the house would mean that the whole scene, according to what is presented through the priests’ services, is delightful to God. It is His inheritance, what He has had in mind all the time in counsel and now has reached. So that the first thought to be considered is obedience. It speaks of God having brought them to Himself on eagles’ wings, but now “If ye will hearken to my voice indeed and keep my covenant, then shall ye be my own possession out of all the peoples — for all the earth is mine — and ye shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation”.

FW Would you help us as to being made and formed? You used, I think, those two words in contrast to what we are in counsel.

JT I was speaking of the passage from the prophet, as you have no doubt observed Isaiah 43:1, “But now thus saith Jehovah, that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine”. And so verse 7, “Every one that is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory: I have formed him, yea, I have made him”. A distinction is carried down from the first and second chapters of Genesis; the first speaks of man being created, the second speaks of man being formed or made, which is more the personal operation of God. He was to be in the image of God as created, but then the formation would be more ^[p. 3] detail, skill, in the features that He had in mind. It was Christ really, Adam was but a figure of Him that was to come, and we are to be conformed to the image of God’s Son.

FW Is that dependent on obedience?

JT I thought obedience was the basis of all this. Aside from obedience what can God do with us? We have to be subdued, so that it is conditional here, “If ye will hearken to my voice indeed and keep my covenant, then shall ye be my own possession out of all the peoples — for all the earth is mine — and ye shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation”. The bearing of it would be more public, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation, but it is a question of obedience, hearkening to His voice and keeping His covenant, which has a great bearing today on the saints. What are we, although we may speak of having been converted at a certain time, save as we come under the divine touch and there is formation?

AFM It is as we are subject in His hand we come in for the formation.

JT I think that is the way it is. The creation is a sort of basic thought in Genesis 1 involving material. God takes up man as such and forms him, according to Genesis 2, and enters into covenant with him; so that it corresponds here now; we have a moral being, not simply a creation, but God breathed into man’s nostrils and he became a living soul on that principle, which meant that he was not only created, but made a moral being that God could act upon, the moral being meaning that there is that in us that God can affect on moral lines; that was stressed in Exodus 19.

U How far does creation carry us?

JT Well, it remains with us. “Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth” Ecclesiastes 12:1; that runs through, you never lose it, nor shall we in ^[p. 4] eternity lose the thought of being creatures. The two thoughts run together, creation and generation; I think generation is greater, and the idea of formation, at least in Adam, comes in on that line. God can act, whether through his intelligence, his affections, or his conscience, whatever it be in him.

Ques You are not looking at it simply as a creature from the hand of a Creator?

JT He is that — God created the heavens and the earth. Then on the fifth day, as regards the fishes, it says, “God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls, and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens. And God created the great sea monsters”. Genesis 1:20,21. That is the next use of the word ‘created’ in the history till you come to man — it is the same word for all, the same word for the great general act of God in creating the heavens and the earth.

Ques Do you carry it on to the new creation in regard to the saints?

JT Quite so, it is carried through. But Genesis 1 helps us; there is nothing said there as to angels; we know they were creatures, of course, but there is very little said about them. It is what is before our eyes that is in mind, and man is created as the great sea monsters were and as the heavens and the earth were: all came under the same word, something made out of nothing, as far as we can see. But when you come to formation, it is not that, the material is there; creation brings the material in, so it is a question of God’s skill in making something for Himself peculiarly that He can love and persons that love Him and form His inheritance.

B Does Psalm 139 bear on the thought? “My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them”. Psalm 139:15,^[p. 5] 16.

JT Well, that is a good scripture to bring forward now, no doubt it is a hidden allusion to the assembly. Ezekiel 16 helps also — the beautiful description God gives of Jerusalem. It shows what is in mind in the sense of formation and fashioning; love enters into it. The creation is a great general thought, but, when you come to man, formation implies a being God would have intercourse with, who would reciprocate in his intelligence and his affections too; and of course Jacob comes in for that side.

EuR Does ‘voice’ in this first scripture in the Old Testament help in relation to that? Does it involve an intimate link between God and His people, this hearkening to His voice?

JT A thought that begins in the garden — Adam heard the voice.

EuR I wondered if we could connect it in any way with the Lord Jesus in Luke’s gospel, His genealogy is traced up to Adam and then to God; whether we could link it with “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God”, Luke 4:4 and then what is said in Romans, “So also by the obedience of the one” Romans 5:19 — would that enter into it?

JT Quite so. Luke gives us the moral side, the link between God and man.

AFM In the formation we read of in Genesis is Christ before God supremely as the great Model?

JT That is what is said; Adam is “the figure of him to come”. Romans 5:14. So that God had Christ in His mind; in that way Adam was a figure of what that Man was to be, it is what Christ is really, and our being conformed to Him in the most exalted way: that we might be “conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren”. Romans 8:^[p. 6] 29.

CG Peter, in quoting this passage in Exodus, speaks of disobedience. Is your thought that the first evidence of God’s work coming to light is the thought of obedience?

JT I think that is the evidence of the moral element that man is responding to God. “We thus judge”, says the apostle, “that if one died for all, then were all dead” (or “then all have died”). 2 Corinthians 5:14. That is, there is no pulsation in man Godward, hence the necessity for Christ to die to bring out another order of man. We have thus judged; but the death of Christ meant there was no pulsation in man at all towards God: “One died for all, then all have died; and he died for all, that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised. So that we henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. So if anyone be in Christ, there is a new creation”. 2 Corinthians 5:14 - 17. All is dead if Christ had to die; it was imperative; we judge that way. So that God has to begin over again with Christ. Peter says we are sanctified to the obedience of Jesus Christ.

WHU Is the formation you speak of on new creation lines that we recognise there is a new creation and are formed according to that, so that we lose the Jacob character and come out as Israel?

JT Yes, it is on family lines now. New creation itself is not a heritage for it extends to inanimate things, though God rejoices in what He creates, He says He will rejoice over Jerusalem with joy. We ought to get on to the generative line, for it is a question of the family, and ultimately of our being conformed to the image of God’s Son, and the passage in Isaiah, I think, helps. We have the two thoughts, creation and formation.

EuR Is this principle of obedience essential to us if we are to touch our privilege? The apostle says,

“When your obedience is fulfilled”, 2 Corinthians 10:6. Then in Philippians, “As ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence” Philippians 2:12. Does that help?

JT Yes, indeed it does. So here I think in Exodus 19 there was a very infantile condition; they were brought by Moses and brought by Jehovah; they are not yet walking. “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” Romans 8:14 alludes to Numbers 21; it took a good time to get to that, but still they are brought by authority and divine influence to Sinai, and the movement is henceforward by the glory in the tabernacle. But in Numbers 21 it is persons who are no longer governed by their own thoughts or by an objective idea, but by the Spirit and by what is in themselves; they are constituted sons because they are led by the Spirit. Now Exodus 24 advances on the infantile or babe state. They had to be carried like the eagle; all has to be done for the young, although the instincts are there. In Deuteronomy this figure is brought in, but it is an infantile state of things, and God cares thus for a young believer as he comes out of the world; he is borne with more than he is afterwards. But now Moses puts up twelve pillars; that does not mean a babe, that does not mean the saints are being cared for now as babes; it means men. Israel is to be composed of men able to do things in relation to one another, able to work in love together; for that is what is in the mind of Moses. So now he says there are young men in the priestly service, as much as to say, there is a little bit of growth. That shows the line on which God is coming into His inheritance; it is not in babes, not that He does not love the saints as babes, but He is thinking of men; so Corinthians stresses, “Quit you like men”. 1 Corinthians 16:13.

Ques Do you suggest ^[p. 8] formation?

JT Quite so; there is some formation in the young man, not only physically, but morally. I believe the Lord is continually keeping before us all these things in relation to assembly service, for that is the thought in His mind just now. The great thing is to get them fitted into our minds, and then we can sit down together. The Corinthians were babes, hence they did not know how to behave themselves in the assembly; they behaved naughtily, as it were playing with toys, like little children. So Moses uses young men, and the thing is done well.

Ques Is Paul seeking right formation when he says, “I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you”, Galatians 4:19?

JT Quite so. They were legal and he wanted to set them free in sonship. The thought is that Christ should be fixedly in our souls as sons.

WHU Would there be any connection between the pillars and the young men who went to sacrifice?

JT I think it is to show the progress made, so they are able to serve God in offering sacrifices.

EuR We are intended to grow our own wings in time; it says, “They shall mount up with wings as eagles”. Isaiah 40:31.

JT Quite so.

JCT “Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God”, Ephesians 4:13 is that in mind in the twelve pillars?

JT Quite so. They are doing things themselves and doing them well, for they are marked by obedience. All this leads up to David and Solomon. What were you going to say?

FW I was only going to remark that this initially broke down through disobedience, but God starts to build the thing up again on the basis of obedience, both here and with us. We have much addressed to us as to the service of God, but are we obedient?

EuR It says, “If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land”, Isaiah 1:19.

JT Yes. As we have said, they took possession of the land, according to Joshua 8. Deuteronomy 33 required that they should have done that as soon as they went in, but it was deferred. But now they surround the ark and offer burnt offerings and peace offerings. We want to follow up the thread of obedience and progress involving formation, young men and then men. “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God”; Romans 8:14 that comes in in Numbers. They are now going into the land and there is a new priesthood, and presently a new leader, Joshua. Joshua was there all the time and Eleazar too, but now Moses and Aaron are to give place to them.

EuR And that is because this obedience and formation had come in.

JT That is it. With Moses and Aaron the point is obedience. Romans gives subjection and priesthood. The subject person is developed into a priest, so that he presents his body. Then you go on till you come to the riches of His inheritance in the saints.

EuR Had you anything more in your mind as to Isaiah?

JT These bits are like our ministry meetings. Someone stands up and brings out one thought, then someone else brings out another, and we cannot at first perhaps see the connection. But how beautiful this is, “Fear not, for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine”.

EuR Why does he say in verse 1, “I have called thee by thy name”, and in verse 7, “Every one that is called by my name”?

JT Well, that would mean that each of us has taken on that, giving us a peculiar place with God.

As it is said to Philadelphia, “Thou ... hast not denied my name”. Revelation 3:8.

WB Does formation take place primarily in our local settings?

JT That is the next thing to get hold of. “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God”. Romans 8:14. Numbers shows that after the brazen serpent, the condemnation of sin in the flesh, Israel goes forward itself without any mention of the tabernacle; it is the Spirit now, they are men now moving of themselves.

Rem So that, in coming into the meeting, the Spirit has His place with us.

JT Yes, it is the Lord’s matter as we sit down together each in his place; that is the first thing. Then who takes part? Well, someone does freshly, and it is a young man, perhaps; but then we can proceed, and “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God”. Romans 8:14. The tabernacle is in view in the Lord’s supper, it begins in Exodus; Exodus is the given type, I think, of the Lord’s supper. Then you think how beautiful the saints are; they are God’s blest people. The Lord said, “Blessed are your eyes”, Matthew 13:16 your very eyes, and all your organs.

EuR In the saints being beautiful under God’s eye there is a readiness for the headship of Christ.

JT Yes, but you can see how God would turn your thoughts to the brethren. You say, Christ is everything; of course, but it is in the new man that Christ is everything in Colossians. The new man is “renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him” Colossians 3:10 — that is, he is like Christ, Christ is everything there now, but then do not forget the new man.

EuR The saints in that character.

JT Yes.

Ques Would that be seen in the saints being justified and ^[p. 11] glorified?

JT Quite so, the apostle goes back to predestination.

Rem In Isaiah 44 it says, “I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring. And they shall spring up among the grass, as willows by the watercourses. One shall say, I am Jehovah’s; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall write with his hand: I am Jehovah’s, and surname himself by the name of Israel” Isaiah 44:3 - 5. The surname would imply the family name.

JT Yes, he will subscribe himself by the name of Israel; he comes to the spiritual family as formed. So we can see, I think, how Balaam is used; God wants to bring out what He sees in the saints.

EuR So it is very serious for me to say anything against them.

JT Hence the unmitigated judgment against Balaam, for he tried to corrupt them. The idea was, I cannot say anything against them, but I will try to corrupt them.

JCT Mr. Darby puts a note to the word ‘surname’ which implies fondness of affection.

JT That is very appealing; it ought to appeal to young people.

Ques Should we begin the morning meeting with the thought, we being many are one loaf, before we go on?

JT Well, that comes in in the early part; it is really mentioned in regard of the fellowship. It comes in in the early part because of the bread or loaf involving subjection, but now we are coming to sonship, “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” Romans 8:14 — that is Numbers 21. God gives Balaam a view of them, and they are all perfect, there is finality in God’s mind, the point reached in the condition of sonship. Then the next ^[p. 12] thing, in a general way, is they are numbered for the inheritance. Balaam’s corruption is dealt with in chapter 25; then the daughters of Zelophehad get their inheritance, and God says, I will number you, so that you all know you are to be there. But then Deuteronomy comes in, which is something like headship; it is Moses speaking of himself, and it is called another covenant, beside the one God made with them in Horeb. It is a double thing, to give us sure ground in going into the land, that we may go in in certainty of soul. And then Moses ends with blessing the people, as already remarked. It is a question now of what God is to have, and every true servant of God is looking at the saints as to what they are to God, how he can make them better for God. Joshua and Eleazar both refer to the spiritual help we get so that we are in the land in our intelligence; and then of course we go on to David and Solomon. We get the great end in the passage we read in 2 Chronicles; there we get the beautiful thought of God’s glory taking charge of the whole position, typically what the saints are to Him, not only as subject and as sons, but in the way they serve, the beautiful unity in the service, the perfect unison before God. That is my primary thought in all this.

EuR Would there be a similar touch when the tribes came to David at Hebron and anointed him king and David made a covenant with them; would that be Christ giving us firm relations with Himself in view of a world out of death? They recognise they are of him, and then he makes a covenant with them.

JT I think that is where formation applies; it is under David and Solomon, I think, that the thought is seen. Solomon is just a counterpart of David. I have no doubt that is where formation is seen in its fulness in the tribes. There was formation in the ^[p. 13] wilderness in sonship, but under headship, which David represents, there is a double thought of it in the twenty-four courses; the thought is intensified.

EuR Does it imply that the tribes are so unified they can become, nationalised all under one man?

JT Yes, all under one man; all in keeping with that great thought, the man of God’s choice.

AFM David, in that section, rises up as head and addresses God as Head in view of all this being united in one expression.

JT It was all one thought in 1 Chronicles 29; the nation is formed according to divine thoughts 1 Chronicles 29:20 - 22. There is perfect unity nationally from the Head down; there is the immensity and richness of the offerings, then there is the unison in song.

B Will you say a word as to verses 11 to 14 of 2 Chronicles 5? “And it came to pass when the priests were come out of the holy place (for all the priests that were present were hallowed without observing the courses; and the Levites the singers, all they of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, clad in byssus, with cymbals and lutes and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them a hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets), — it came to pass when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one voice to be heard in praising and thanking Jehovah; and when they lifted up their voice with trumpets, and cymbals, and instruments of music, and praised Jehovah: For he is good, for his loving-kindness endureth for ever; that then the house, the house of Jehovah, was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not stand to do their service because of the cloud; for the glory of Jehovah had filled the house of God”.

JT A wonderful scene. And that parenthesis is to show that any discrepancy there may have been does not interfere with the great general thought.

^[p. 14] S Is that a point we should reach in the morning meeting if we were right?

JT That is just the point, the beautiful unison of sound.

B How would that work out locally when it says, “the priests could not stand to do their service because of the cloud”?

JT I think it means that the official side ceases; we reach what we shall have eternally in heaven. It does not mean the persons were not recognised, but that the official side ceases as we merge now into the primary thoughts of God, which would be our eternal position; we shall not serve as priests, but as sons.

B Would the thought of silence come in fittingly, the silence of power?

JT Just so, if we have power to abstract ourselves even for half a minute. It is a question of power in our souls to do that.

EuR You said something about the service standing related to the glory in a peculiar way.

JT Quite so. The whole position refers to the quality and dignity of the saints. That is what is meant. The official side is protected, but it is no longer needed. There is such power now that, however short it may be, there is the sense that we are with God according to His eternal purpose as sons before Him.

JCT Is there a difference between this thought of formation and the thought of transformation in 2 Corinthians 3?

JT That would enter into it, of course; that comes into assembly service — as we behold the glory we are to be transformed. It is a real change inwardly, not a mere external change.

AFM Does the glory filling the house mean sons exactly responding to God and expressing Him?

^[p. 15] It says the glory filled the house of God. Is glory the expression of God?

JT Yes, but it is as filling us: we are capable of being filled. The woods in the temple and the other furniture all refer to the saints, to ourselves as formed of God and set in that magnificence, so that there is room for the glory in our hearts.

EuR Would it be right to say that it is a new creation scene and the sons are at home in it and the glory is filling it?

JT Well, it is a “better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, (that is, not of this creation)”, Hebrews 9:11.