HOW TO DRAW NEAR TO GOD
[p. 188] HOW TO DRAW NEAR TO GOD
Hebrews 6: 13 - 20; Hebrews 10: 14 - 22
JT These scriptures teach us how to draw near to God. That is why they have been suggested. Indeed the epistle in a general way has this particularly in mind, for it is addressed to believers who are on comparatively low ground spiritually, and some indeed are in retrogression — indeed have retrograded, so that the need was stimulation to go forward, not to draw back. So we have stress laid on promises and covenants; unbelievers maybe, believers of small stature, all, of course, need these special features. God is pleased to come down to us and swear to us and promise us — furnish us with promises and even with the covenants so that we might be assured, and thus go forward.
Another element that is stressed, as most of us know here, is the position of Christ as High Priest above. As is said in chapter 4: 14, “Having therefore a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession. For we have not a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all things in like manner, sin apart. Let us approach therefore with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and find grace for seasonable help” (verses 14 - 16). It is thought that the two scriptures read will furnish us with a sufficient basis for profitable conversation as to drawing near to God.
FW Would you say that the promises and the covenants, and Christ as High Priest, are fundamental as to drawing near to God?
JT Well, that is what is apparent. We have Jewish terms here. What has been read deals with fundamentals, as Romans deals with fundamentals,
[p. 189] but in terms proper to gentile believers. This book applies Jewish terms because it is dealing with Jewish believers. We are entitled to use these terms as christians among gentiles, but it is well to be sure in using them that we know what they mean according to the light of Romans.
WT Have you in your mind that the promise made to Abraham which has to do with the earthly people, is supported by the oath and by counsel — counsel especially?
JT Well, that is the way Scripture puts these facts. Were Abraham an Ephesian christian, so to speak, as one would hope some of us here are, he would hardly need an oath. That is, if we really know God, we do not need an oath, nor even a covenant, but God took account of Abraham’s condition, and confirmed the promise by an oath. So that, as it is said, we might have a strong consolation or encouragement, and He has engaged Himself to certain things, by promise and by oath. It is said that it is impossible for Him to lie in any way, without the promise or the oath, but He condescends to promise things to us and to swear to us that the promise will be fulfilled, so as to assure us, taking account of our feebleness of faith and confidence.
JMD Is it your thought that if we know God in His unchangeableness we will go forward in those thoughts of what is seen inwardly — the greatness of Christ in glory, and Christ inside the veil?
JT Well, that is what is in mind — the hope enters inside the veil. “Entering into that within the veil”, it says, that is the hope itself (chapter 6: 19). We are to enter into it, too, inside the veil, but the hope enters in. That is an additional thing. This is a state of soul. It is what the hope is to you “who have fled for refuge to lay hold on the hope set before us, which we have as anchor of the soul, both secure and firm, and entering into that within the veil, where [p. 190] Jesus is entered as forerunner for us” (verses 18, 19). That is, we have a footing inside the veil. Our hope enters in there. Jesus is there personally. The hope is not a person. It is furnished there in an objective way, and as laid hold of, it enters in and strengthens us in that way in entering in, but there is a Person there, even Jesus, who has gone in there not only on His own account, but as Forerunner and as Priest of the highest order. So that there is every reason why we should go forward inside the veil.
Rem He is revealed in Christ first.
JT Well, He is, but there are various gradations in that knowledge. If Paul were writing to Peter, he would not bring these things forward, for he and Peter themselves knew how to enter. It is because he is writing to such christians, that is Jewish believers, who were in great danger of going back to Judaism, that he has recourse to these methods, bringing forward Old Testament scriptures to encourage them not to go back, but to go forward.
Ques Is the service of God in view and all this brought in by the writer to set them free in view of that service, so that it is God they know and serve and praise?
JT Well, just so. We are told in chapter 13, that we are to serve. “We have an altar ... therefore let us go forth to him without the camp, bearing his reproach ... . By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually to God, that is, the fruit of the lips confessing his name”, chapter 13: 10 - 15.
That is the practical injunction to us, to carry on the sacrifice of praise, confessing His name, but these instructions are essential to have so that we are at liberty, our footing is inside. The intervening scriptures, that is chapters 7, 8 and 9 and part of 10, are to establish us on this footing, inside the veil. We have access, boldness of access, to enter the holiest.
That is a plain statement, which is based on the teaching [p. 191] of these scriptures. The teaching is to be laid hold of in our souls. Facts presented doctrinally are to be laid hold of and when the time for formally entering comes, we are ready for it.
JHT Would the Lord’s service, as seen in Luke, help us? In the first chapter, all the people are praying without (verse 10), and then in the last chapter, they are in the temple praising and blessing God (verse 53).
Is the transition seen there in Luke? I wondered if Luke had the moral side in view.
JT I am sure that is good. The passage in the first chapter of Luke shows that the service was being carried on according to the priestly order; the priest himself was unbelieving, as you have noticed. I am sure there is much of that occurring today among the people of God. Certain services are proceeding, and even the right order, and hence Gabriel appears on the right of the altar of incense, as much as to say that although the service is going on formally, it is not reaching up to God. It needs divine help. So Gabriel, the angel, has to do with the priest afterwards, and tells him that things that he prayed for are about to happen, and the priest does not believe it. So I suppose the teaching here in our chapters will be what would help us on these lines. The priest we have seen, like Zacharias, or perhaps like some of us at times in our participation nominally in the service of God — there is often such unbelief in our hearts, but Hebrews shows that the real Priest is above — the High Priest, even Jesus — Jesus the tried One. Luke fully sets it out, and consequently the disciples are serving in the temple, praising and blessing God. I am thankful you brought those two scriptures up. As a matter of fact in Luke, even the disciples themselves after all the tuition they had with the Lord and the priestly service on His part, when He came into their midst, after rising from the dead, they were not ready for Him. They were not ready to serve,
[p. 192] but as you say, He had the full thought in mind, and it was reached. He made them ready. He adjusted them according to chapter 24, so that as He comes up He leads them out as far as to Bethany, and then they know what to do. I believe the gospel of Luke helps greatly in the understanding of Hebrews.
Ques What is the meaning of “drawing near” in Hebrews?
JT It is a great general thought taken from the types. In the types in Exodus — first, Moses drew near; he brought the people out from the camp to meet God; he had gone up the mount himself, and then he brought the people out of the camp to meet with God. Well, that was drawing near. It is really the formula for drawing near to God, because that is the idea, nearness to God. The psalmist says, “a people near unto him”. Well, Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, but God is very restrictive and urges Moses to see to it that the people do not get beyond the barriers, so that only Moses could draw near, and yet they themselves were nearer than other people. There were no people on the earth as near to God, though in the very restricted way as they were, but God would accentuate the idea of drawing near by saying to Moses, ‘Now you are to go alone’. Even if a beast goes, it must be slain. Then presently God says to Moses, ‘well, Aaron can come, too, with you’, and then thirdly, after considerable instruction (chapters 20, 21, 22 and 23) we are told that Jehovah says to Moses, “Go up to Jehovah, thou and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel”, chapter 24: 1. So that the number drawing near is being extended, and that is the position now. God would extend it to all His people; and they did, but before they actually ascended together Moses took precautions that the people should be committed thoroughly to the commandments of God, for no one should draw near to God in [p. 193] disobedience. That is a most serious thing to be drawing near professedly, and to be unbelieving, and to be disobedient. Moses with true mediatorial instinct, reads the divine terms in the book to the people, and the people say, “all the words which the Lord hath said will we do”. Moses accepts that and builds twelve pillars and an altar, and offers sacrifices and sprinkles the blood. The people, the altar and the book were all sprinkled with blood, which is the point in Hebrews, that there is the full use of the blood in drawing near to God. We can only draw near through the death of Christ. So they went up. That is the principle, that the thought of drawing near is persistent, and is increasingly accentuated. So that instead of Moses alone, we have Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, four, and seventy others, which would be seventy-four, and Joshua besides — he is to come with Moses. They all went up, and they saw the God of Israel and what was under His feet, and they ate and drank before God. That, I think, is the idea in the types and ought to be very attractive to us, that God has made a way, provided the blood, the blood of Jesus, even sworn to us, covenanted with us, not with us as christians, but with the Hebrew christians. They are viewed in that light, but in principle that is what it is. It is God engaging Himself to us in all these matters, and all to the end that we should be free to draw near to Him, not to remain at a distance, but to draw near to God.
EM Is that an individual thought so far as Hebrews is concerned?
JT Well, yes, but it is “Let us”, you know.
EM I wondered if you meant that as a basis of later privilege — taking up the principle of privilege — first of all, we must know what it is to draw near consciously as individuals.
JT But I would like to hear what you understand — what you mean — by [p. 194] privilege.
EM Rising as sons before the Father, that is privilege; the consciousness of being in sonship before the Father — God revealed as Father, and known consciously in our souls, but that, of course, is as we take a collective thought, “many sons”. But I thought perhaps this might be taken as an individual exercise in our pathway.
JT Well, I think what you say as to that side is right, but as to the uses of the word ‘privilege’, and the word ‘collective’, you would include the assembling of ourselves together. In fact, you have not got that until we have all this instruction in drawing near to God. “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together”, which they were doing, and many are doing now. You would have in mind when we come together in assembly, that that is privilege. That is glory, too, so that the individual experience must precede that, too. The coming together in assembly to break bread is the beginning of collective privilege. It is progressive from the time we sit down until we leave, or until the Lord leaves, which is a better way to put it. It is progressive, higher and higher yet. That is the principle. So that we go out straight ahead of us. And much intervenes — the entrance to the gate, for instance, to Ezekiel’s temple; the entrance to the gate would be something like seventy-five feet. Well, every movement of that distance would involve spiritual environment, and then inside the inner court, one hundred feet further, and then another entrance to these steps, and then another entrance of seventy-five feet. Well, it is steady progress, lengthy, too, but most happy because it is always spiritual environment. It is wonderful to go through with those extended entrances, and steps, too, seven steps and eight steps. What I understand is, we begin with glory; it is from glory to glory, which is the principle. Even leaving our houses to assemble is glorious. And the anointing [p. 195] we are all anointed when we are christians, and that anointing is public, for public appearance and dignity, so that even the walk to the meeting-room is glorious. The sitting down is glorious, and all that follows. We come together to do something, and of course, intelligence requires that we should do it, but still it is done in the power of the anointing and the coming in of the Lord gives additional glory, and as we proceed and unfold the riches that we have got in our souls by the power of the Spirit, it is increasing glory. So that we reach the Father. Of course, Hebrews does not lead us as far as that. We do not come to assembling until all this instruction up to the end of the passage we read (chapter 10), but for the other scriptures, what you alluded to as special privilege would be direct worship of God, as such. But what precedes that is most glorious and most blessed — our relations with Christ, as the assembly, and His relation with us and the interchange and reciprocated feelings — all that is not only glorious, but most enjoyable.
EM You include that in “Let us draw near”.
JT Well, exactly. The scriptures we have read are intended to prepare us for all that. Why should we remain at a distance from God?
JHT You mean there would be a distinctive glory about Peter and John as they went up to the temple at the hour of prayer, and then in Acts 13, there would be a distinctive glory about those, too, who were ministering to the Lord and fasting in the assembly at Antioch. Is that “from glory to glory”?
JT Quite so. The whole of the book of the Acts is upward still. I suppose chapter 20 is the acme of the teaching. Then we get Paul’s journey to Jerusalem, but chapter 20, I would say, is the acme of the teaching.
Ques Do you think our deep need is on the line of consideration? In Hebrews 3 it says, “Wherefore,
[p. 196] holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest” (verse 1), and I wondered if that took in the two sides just suggested.
JT Quite so. These scriptures which we have read have to do with the state of our souls. Am I really a believer or am I following what others are doing? That is the point here in chapter 6 — it says, “We are persuaded better things of you”, but they were on very low ground. They might be able to tell us something about the Priest and the Apostle, but where were they in their souls? Think of what is to be believed, and, as coming to the assembly, am I really a believer as to all the wonderful things that enter into it; they are to be in my heart, these things are not in the air in a room, but it is what you bring. They are in our hearts. So that the first thing you have is encouragement. The things that are really presented to us are the truth, so that chapters 3 and 4 stress the idea of faith.
JHT Do we not get an exposure of that with Saul, the king? In 1 Samuel 14, “Let us go down after the Philistines by night ... and let us not leave a man of them”. And the people said, “Do whatsoever is good in thy sight”, but the priest said, “Let us come near hither to God”. Was not Saul exposed as being an unbeliever and the priest rectifying the position?
JT Quite so. Saul was really standing in the way of everybody there. I would take advantage of those scriptures to enlarge on the truth. Saul is really the kind of man that is in the way in all these things, he is leading man in the profession, and yet he is standing in everybody’s way, and therefore, “let us go down”, he says; he is going to get all the credit for the victory; and it was the first altar he built and he calls for the ark and enquires of that, and all that, but there is no change in Saul. He is going to slay Jonathan, he is going to slay the very [p. 197] man that acquired the victory, so that I am thankful you bring these things up, for they enlarge the truth for us. Jonathan was really going on to the very summit of the truth, because he partook of the fruit of the land, flowing with milk and honey. Honey was flowing and that is what you have in Hebrews. They are going back from the heavenly side. Honey was flowing and Saul would not have it, meaning that he was not appropriating the fruit of the land.
Rem Had more of Israel taken it, many more Philistines would have been slain.
JPS Conjointly with this movement Godward is there a deepening apprehension and appreciation in the soul of the greatness of Christ? I was thinking of the reference to Him as priest known in relation to our infirmities in chapter 4: 15, as contrasted with the presentation of Christ as “A great priest over the house of God” in chapter 10: 21.
JT Showing that it is a heavenly thing. This book is the book of the open heavens, and it is opened up to us, but where is the state? Am I a believer? Chapters 3 and 4 are to show that Israel were not believers. Their words were not mixed with faith, and therefore they did not get into the land. Jonathan was in, and really in. He was partaking of the fruit of the land and everybody partaking of it would be in glorious victory. Saul was not that way, and that is a most important word. Go in for the heavenly truth — partakers of the heavenly calling — a power by which we can choose the good and refuse the evil, which comes out in this book.
JS As to Jonathan with this movement Godward, is there the thought of an increased apprehension of Christ? I was thinking of the reference to Him as priest, as a great priest over the house of God, as contrasted with the fourth chapter in relation to the Lord [p. 198] Himself.
JT Yes. There are lines of truth growing in the book. What is to be particularly stressed in the first scripture read is where we have encouragement in our souls. That is the promise and the oath — God coming down to where we are, and that the hope we have in our hearts goes inside the veil and Jesus is there waiting for us. He is there as priest, but as priest after the order of Melchisedec. I believe that most of us would have to confess if we were to tell the whole truth, that there is a great want of faith as we sit down in assembly, as we have to do with the service of God.
Ques Would it be right to say that the promise and the covenant secure the person for going in?
JT Quite so. They establish your heart that you are a real believer, because our hymns are prophetic, of God and of Christ, and you are affected by that. You are singing them effectively, so that you are really speaking of the Lord in singing them.
Rem And then it says, “Let us approach”. The persons are really secured consciously to enter the holiest.
JT Just so. The forgiveness with the new covenant is brought forward in chapters 8 and 10, really to augment the teaching. One lesson to be learned in Hebrews is the great use made of the Old Testament to force the truth on unbelievers. The Old Testament is calculated, is designed of God, to affect our consciences and great use is made of it. Here we get Abraham, and right down till we come to chapter 8 we get the new covenant. It is brought in to show that Christ is our High Priest, and has a more excellent ministry. He is the Mediator of a better covenant. It is not so much to enlarge as to bring out what Christ is as High Priest, what a ministry He has as Mediator of it, so as to establish our hearts in the knowledge of Him and the ministry that He has.
HB That would exercise us as to being intelligent — intelligent in one’s belief. I was wondering if it would be right to say, on the lines you are speaking, we are not just thinking of the Lord in His headship, rather are we thinking of Him in connection with the promises and in connection with the covenant and in connection with priesthood, not exactly in connection with His headship.
JT Hebrews hardly gives His headship, because the saints are so low down. For the working out of headship, we not only need the Lord Jesus (He is always the Head), but we need the state in the saints and hence if we are in that low state, shall we reach headship in assembly service? It is questionable.
WT Why does the city of refuge come in here?
JT Well, they fled from danger. They have not come very far to where they fled. It shows they were in real earnest so far.
Ques Why is Christ mentioned as forerunner, before He is mentioned as high priest?
JT Well, “as forerunner”, would mean that He has got us in mind, that we are just going after Him. So that in Exodus you get Aaron, but he is not officially installed as high priest, until we get the tabernacle. It is in connection with the tabernacle that you get the high priest clothed. It means we have to go further; it is a question of progress in souls.
WT They are going in to where One ever lives.
JT Just so, so that after we come now to the end of chapter 6, we have a wonderful line of truth opened up again from Genesis. The incident in the Old Testament is used in Hebrews to show that we must not make too much of one thing. That the new covenant, for instance, is referred to twice in this book, it might, among other things, be to induce us to draw near to God. There are other things, say in chapter 7, but this chapter does not allude to a new covenant, it is a question of Melchisedec, and the priesthood of Christ is on that line — “such a high priest became us”, meaning that we progress in our souls and we begin to see that we are of Christ’s order, and we need such a Priest as that. Well, one who understands that, if he gives out a hymn, there will be a richness with it.
Ques Is this to lead us up (chapter 8: 1, with the sum of all that we have been speaking of, with Christ as the Object) — to allure us after God?
JT It expresses what it results in, in the writer’s mind, as the substance of things of which we are speaking. Is the present subject the One who occupies heaven? It heads up in this. That is the translator’s note. So that it is the chief point. It is not everything, of course. In a summary you cannot get everything, but that is what is in mind. “We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man”. But he is bringing that forward that He could set Himself down there. He is a divine Person. Nobody but God could do that. He sets Himself there, but He is there minister of the sanctuary. Now we get on further to a still higher elevation, that we have a whole system of things in the service of God set up, and we have this great Person there as the Priest, as the High Priest, and “minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man”. Now we are outside of man’s position altogether. We are now in the presence of the great system that God has established in Christ in heaven, He has done it Himself, but He is still our Priest.
WT Is the idea not so much what has been spoken, but what he is speaking, having special reference to the High Priest?
JT What “we are speaking”, the present tense. The whole company is one, listening.
[p. 201] Ques Do I gather that what you are seeking to exercise us about is the importance of being balanced in relation to all things?
JT I am thinking of the teaching that enters into this section, and how the Old Testament yields under the guidance of the Spirit of God, how it yields matter for our instruction, and particularly to establish us that we are real believers in what is presented, that we are brought into a new system of things, that Christ is High Priest in it, and not only that, but He is minister of the holy places, “the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man”. We are brought into a new system of things, and it is spiritual. So that we are prepared for John 4, to worship in spirit and truth. We are prepared for it; it is the question of the state of our souls to reach it.
Ques Do we see what was set forth in the Lord drawing near to two going on their way to Emmaus — how He would draw near to them, and touch their affections, so they might enter into the blessedness of what He had for them?
JT That is right. We can understand why He would have said something about the service of God. He would probably allude to Moses and to Aaron as types. So that the crowning service that He renders to them, as you know, is to break the bread, and then He vanished out of their sight. They see that it is He vanishing out of their sight, and they went back to Jerusalem. That is the idea here.
JHT So that is there a significance in the question in chapter 9: 14? The whole divine system has been given, but is he rather stressing now that there are to be living persons to worship the living God. Is that why in verse 5 he does not speak in detail?
JT Quite so. That is good.
JHT I was thinking of what you said as to the whole divine system. It is not now that you are occupied with one item in the divine system, but [p. 202] as a living person you are going in to worship the living God.
JT Quite so, and these Old Testament features are brought forward conclusively, in the new covenant, to augment what the apostle has in mind, he is really setting out christianity. He is setting it out insofar as the persons he is addressing could receive it. He says plainly that he could not go the whole length with them, because they needed the first principles even. Hence this book is very limited, but at the same time it sets out on a right basis this fundamental establishment in view of the service of God.
JHT In regard of the Hebrews it says they were unskilled in the word of righteousness; would that be an allusion on the part of the writer that they should read Romans?
JT I am sure, for that is the word of righteousness.
Ques Would Simeon set forth the features in view of the service of God? He would go about Jerusalem, and his walk would show that he was in touch with God, and it is said of him that he came into the temple and he gets the consolation of Israel and all his hopes fulfilled.
JT In Luke 2 Simeon is alluded to — how he came into the temple. He leads the way in that in the whole book. He came by the Spirit into the temple. That is how to come in; he came in by the Spirit and has consolation there; he took the Child in his arms. That is the idea. Jesus here in this book — take Him in your arms, inside, as it were.
What light shines then! There is one thing to be noted in chapter 10. The writer speaks much about the sacrifices, and Christ coming to do the will of God, setting aside and terminating all the types in Himself, the antitype, “by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”. Then, “For by one offering he [p. 203] has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears us witness of it”. That is a point to be noticed in view of our drawing near to God — the service rendered by the Holy Spirit in bringing in the Old Testament — bringing in, for instance, Jeremiah 31 — the new covenant, and stressing the thought of forgiveness. The Holy Spirit stresses the thought of forgiveness. “Their sins and their lawlessnesses I will never remember any more”.
And therefore it says, “Where there is remission of these, there is no longer a sacrifice for sin”. Now there is a point of importance, that the new covenant is brought in for one reason — to stress the idea of forgiveness. That is what it is brought in for — to stress what the whole teaching of the previous part of the chapter is. There is no longer any sacrifice for sin if sins are forgiven. They are not to be remembered any more. There is no need for any further sacrifice. And then the next verse is, “Having therefore, brethren, boldness for entering into the holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, the new and living way, which he has dedicated for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, and having a great priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, sprinkled as to our hearts from a wicked conscience, and washed as to our body with pure water” (verses 19 - 22). That is the great sum of what he has aimed at as regards us, that we should draw near to God, all these things provided.
Ques Would all this secure a priestly state with us, bringing in Abraham to secure the believing side?
JT Exactly. Let us approach with a true heart and full assurance of faith; it is one of the greatest facts — full assurance of faith. That is, all that has been opened up to us in the sense of privilege is true, it is to be accepted, it is fact.
WT Would the reference in chapter 8 to the new covenant be in relation to the more excellent [p. 204] ministry of Christ, and then the new covenant in chapter 10, our means of approach?
JT Yes, to stress overcoming. The Holy Spirit brings forward Jeremiah to help us as to forgiveness. It confirms all that is said in the chapter previously, for if sins are dealt with in that way there is no need of any further sacrifice. The matter is all settled.
WT In the former it refers to the mind, but in the latter it refers to the heart first. Why is that?
JT It raises a matter that is most interesting, as to the modification of a word in Scripture. Why are these variations in the wording of the same things, especially the Lord’s supper? Why does the Lord, in finally giving the Supper to Paul to give to believers among the gentiles, vary from what Matthew, Mark and Luke give us? It is a most interesting enquiry, and obviously it is that there is a certain setting in which the Lord would help us to be, and the Lord is making it exactly in regard of that setting. Well, do not forget that 1 Corinthians 11 is the last word as to the Lord’s supper. So likewise here there is some reason for variation from chapter 8. There is hardly time for it, but brethren would do well to look into it.