CHRIST AS HAVING COME FROM GOD AND GONE TO GOD
[p. 139] CHRIST AS HAVING COME FROM GOD AND GONE TO GOD
JT I suggested reading those two verses in John 20 because one would wish that perhaps at the end we might see the distinction between going to God, going to the Father, and ascending to the Father. It may be worth pointing out that in the gospel of John much is made of the Lord’s relation with God before incarnation, and also as having become flesh. It is said, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God”, (John 1:1,2) and “The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. (verse 18) His relation with God, with the Father, is emphasised.
Ques Would you say a little as to what that relation was?
JT I should not like to define it beyond what is stated. The only-begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father refers to Him as having become flesh, but I would not like to go beyond that. All that is stated of Him before is that He was “with God”, without defining or naming the relation.
Ques Would it be right to say that the names under which the Lord is spoken of in Scripture as Man refer to Him as having become flesh? There is no name by which we can speak of Him as previous to that, but certain things are predicated of Him.
JT That is right so far as I understand it. We can speak of the Word, but then that refers to what He was here. It is used to speak of Him as in the past, in eternity, “In the beginning was the Word”. The Spirit of God seems to veil what special relation there was, and it is therefore wiser to leave it there. The Lord speaks in chapter 17 of the “glory which I had with thee” (referring to the Father) “before the world was”, without saying what that was, but what is emphasised is the fact that He was “with God”, and I think that has a moral significance as bearing on revelation, so that He comes out from God as having been with Him.
MWB That is why you emphasise it as seen in the gospel of John?
JT I thought the Lord’s position as having been with God should be called attention to, as to the force of it.
DLH Then you are giving what one might call a moral force to the idea of coming from God and going to God?
JT I think that is justifiable, and as faith apprehended Him. Nicodemus says, “We know that thou art a teacher come from God” (John 3: 2), and the disciples in chapter 16, as put to the test of their faith, say, “We believe that thou camest forth from God”. They believed that, but these verses in chapter 13 show that His coming out from God is not all, for He also goes to God. The setting of these verses is very significant in view of what He does afterwards in washing their feet. It is a wonderful service that He rendered. The last passover, being about to take place, all this came into view. There is finality in what is stated as regards His service in testimony here. “He was come from God, and he went to God”; He had been in the world, and He was going to depart out of it to the Father; He had completed His testimony, and He goes to God. It is not here how He goes; we know that it was through death, but the point is that He goes to God.
Ques What is the significance of going to God in this chapter and going to the Father in chapter 16?
JT You have going to the Father here, too; that is the first statement. “Jesus, knowing that [p. 141] his hour had come that he should depart out of this world to the Father”. I think the two statements are to be distinguished; that is, His going to the Father out of the world, and then His coming out from God and going to God. The world is set over against the Father; coming out from the Father (John 16:28) must carry with it more the thought of grace than coming out from God, and going to the Father involved in a way more for Him, because demonstration is brought to the world of righteousness, on account of His going to the Father. That a Man should go to the Father as having been here is very wonderful; it was a matter of righteousness.
MWB What would you say is the primary thought connected with coming out from God? Is it revelation?
JT Yes; it is revelation, it is the “true light”. “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the light”, but he was not the true light, and his testimony was partial in its bearing. “The true light was that which, coming into the world, lightens every man”; it is impartial; and it greatly aids in regard of the revelation to see that God acts towards all, it is universal. The true light sheds its light on every man; instead of being limited to Judaism, it was universal, so that coming out from God is to make God known to all. It is not that every one has something revealed specially to him, but the revelation is there. So it says, “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”; His position in relation to the Father marks it, and is spoken of in connection with the declaration of God.
Ques Would you say that He could not have received that which was given unto Him unless He came out from God and went back [p. 142] to God?
JT All things are said to be given into His hands here. We read, “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands”, so that all administration is in His hands.
Ques Would you say the character of the Father and the heart of God are set out in this chapter?
JT I think what the Father is is involved. I mean, that the Father is the One to whom He has gone, involving righteousness, and then, too, He came out from God and went to God; that is, on the one hand, God is revealed, and on the other, a Man is with God, according to all that God is, so that going to God corresponds to coming from God, and His administration is based on it; the mediatorial system, and all that is ever to be seen publicly in this world, are based on it. What there may be specially for the assembly is not so much in view here: the whole mediatorial system and what flows from it is based on His going to God.
Ques Do you mean that if revelation is toward all, His having gone to God necessitated that He should be the point of attraction for all?
JT It involves that, it is stated in the previous chapter, that as lifted up from the earth, all men should come to Him, He should draw all men to Him. What is stated here is that He knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands and that He was come from God and went to God, He riseth from supper.
DLH There is a question arising here, and that is, that the Lord seems to make this statement about coming forth from the Father and so on, the preface to His acting particularly in regard to the circle, not exactly to men at large, but this particular circle that had been given to Him out of the world. Would you say something in regard to that point?
JT I think that their position here must correspond to the great truth of His position, as having [p. 143] come from God and going to God, and they must be taught how to act. In all the dignity of what He knew, He laid aside His garments to wash their feet, having in view what they should be here, and that they should have part with Him; it had in view what they should be in this world, out of which He had gone publicly; they were to be marked by love among themselves, that all men might know that they were His disciples. To wash one another’s feet, to take up this position that He indicates, requires losing one’s dignity. He had laid aside His garments to perform it. “If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet”. It is in all the dignity of what He knew that He laid aside His garments. I think that in rendering this service to one another in love they would be marked off as His disciples.
DLH Was it in view, not only of their own association with Him in the new sphere which He was opening for them, but in view likewise of their position in relation to the world and their bearing in regard to it?
JT Yes, I think that is an important feature of this passage, that they should be marked off as His disciples.
DLH But then “part with him” refers to the heavenly part, if we may so say, I suppose?
JT It may, if you introduce chapter 20 into it, but I think what we are now speaking of does not go beyond what we are here in this world, as being in a scene of defilement. It does not view us wholly in spiritual relations as chapter 20 does.
MWB Would you say it is in view of it all?
JT We have to read chapter 20 via chapter 13, but I would connect chapter 13 with the Lord’s supper, which brings in another line of things; it is parallel with the Lord’s supper, which is a [p. 144] public matter.
DLH Then the force in that case of “part with me” would be, as I understand, association with Christ in this present scene, identification with Him in rejection and suffering?
JT Yes, exactly. We are regarded as here where defilement is, but our spiritual relations with Christ, as chapter 20 suggests, do not contemplate us as in the scene of defilement, but rather as having part in what is heavenly.
JJ How do you understand the necessity for the washing of the feet, if part with Me is down here?
JT It is important to have our feet washed. It is a distinct feature of God’s testimony that He would have a people on this earth; He will also have a people in heaven. The two positions apply to us, we have part in both. This chapter has relation to us as here where Christ has been, and where defilement is, and it provides for the defilement so that we might be here according to Him.
MWB Would it be right to say that chapter 13 commences a series of chapters, which regard the saints as taking Christ’s place here, not so much spiritual blessing, but what is here?
JT Yes; that is the point. It is more the question of revelation here, and what flows from it, and then Christ going to the Father, not ascending, but going to Him and going to God, and that there is a people here according to Him, known as His disciples.
MWB You lay emphasis on that verse. “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if ye have love one to another”.
JT I think chapter 13 is an immense thing for God, that He should have a people here according to what He is as revealed in Christ, and according to what Christ is as having gone to Him. We are connected now with the mediatorial system, which [p. 145] Israel will come into, only, of course, we should grace it and magnify it in view of the greatness of our calling; but we are in that position provisionally. The Lord’s supper and what we get in this chapter run together and have in view that we should be here according to what God is as revealed in Christ, and also according to what Christ is. The chapter shows what He is morally, One who in dignity can take the lowest place and serve others, so that God is rightly presented here in a Man, and that is an example or pattern for those left here in His absence.
Ques Do we express love to one another in the action of stooping down to wash one another’s feet?
JT Yes. In this way He teaches us how to serve one another by love. It is only a great man that can be small. The Lord shows here, not simply the fact that He was going to God, but knowing that He was going to the Father out of the world, that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He came from God and was going to God, in the dignity of all that He lays aside His garments, so that it is a truly great person that can be really small in service. Our position is to be, that we are out of the world as to our soul’s apprehension, in the fact that He has gone out of it, and the Supper involves that. Baptism takes us out of the world positionally, and the Supper sustains our souls as we apprehend it, so that we are out of the world morally, yet in it publicly in testimony. We have part with Christ as having left the world, but it does not say where He is to be when you have part with Him here, it is simply that you have part with Him, but it is stated that He is going out of the world to the Father.
ER The idea of washing really is that you get abstracted from the scene in which you are, so as to have part with Him.
JT Yes, but it contemplates that you are in [p. 146] that scene, whereas Ephesians contemplates your being raised up together and sitting down together in heavenly places, which is a spiritual matter and runs parallel with John 20, our special privilege. This chapter 13 has in view a people provisionally for God, and we are to be kept from defilement, so as to be in accord with Christ and according to His pattern. Although John 20 does not view us in heaven like Ephesians 2, yet, being the brethren of the ascending One, our place is there.
Ques Do you connect “part with me” with the thought of sharing in divine affections?
JT It is an important feature to have part with Christ, and I do not limit it in any way. What I would emphasise is the fact that we are found in a defiling scene and passing through it; that is one side of our position; the other is that we have part in heavenly things. John 20 contemplates this latter; there we are viewed spiritually not as in this world, but as in Canaan; that is another matter which belongs also to us, but that there should be a people here in Israel’s position is a matter of great importance with God and this is chapter 13.
WG Is it not the case that we must be in the enjoyment of divine affections to express them? “By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves”.
JT I think God teaches us to love one another. The Lord sets the example here of how love is to be expressed, and it is in service in humility. “By love serve one another”.
Ques In John 20 you get resurrection. What would you get in this chapter?
JT Resurrection is not in view in this chapter, it is the wilderness position, it is the saints viewed in a defiling scene, and provision made for them in view of their being here after Christ. John 20 is ascension.
[p. 147] Ques Would you say that Peter made a mistake in associating defilement with washing?
JT I think defilement is suggested in washing. What the Lord did Peter did not understand, but he would understand afterwards.
JC You were speaking of His leaving the world and the Father giving all things into His hands. Is that the foundation of His service here?
JT I think in this sense that it suggests the great dignity that was there. He knew these things. We can easily understand that He knew them, but the Spirit emphasises that He knew them, and then in all that dignity He laid aside His garments, as if to suggest that in that moral dignity we are to serve.
JC In that way the object of the Lord’s service here is to maintain His own in correspondence to what is true in Himself.
JT To maintain us here, I think, not exactly to fit us for heavenly places, though we cannot separate them, but to maintain us here in a public way.
HHS Is the point that for us as found in a scene of defilement love is in danger?.
JT Yes. The great end is to have love among ourselves, and love is promoted by the continuation of this service.
DLH Is your idea that the administration of all things being put into His hands by the Father, the Lord begins by administrating in regard to His own, so as to secure what is suitable to Himself during His absence?
JT I think so. It suggests to us the manner in which administration is to be carried on here. I suppose, the apostle Paul is the greatest example of it in the lowly, unselfish way in which he carried on his service.
DLH And that was to mark the disciples, and in that way to be a testimony to Christ during His absence. In that respect the assembly, or the [p. 148] saints when they are together for the Supper, present a very remarkable thought, that they are the only portion of the world of bliss that is as yet brought into relation with God. Is not that true?
JT Quite.
DLH And that has to be maintained, hence the feet-washing; the moral thought has to be maintained.
JT If we studied Paul’s ministry, or his manner of life rather, we should discover in a man of like passions to ourselves how the thing comes to pass, how it takes form. His letters to the Corinthians are marked by humility. A man, who was the means under God of enlightening them, becomes displaced in a measure amongst them, but he humbly waits on the brethren in grace, bringing in the water in the most skilful way, and in doing it, calls attention to the absence of love, and emphasises the great necessity for it. He brings in, in the abstract, in chapter 13 of the first letter, love in all its characteristics, as much as to say, ‘It is not amongst you in this way’. He patiently works with them in order to bring about the result that the Lord had in view, that there might be love among themselves.
Rem In love there is power.
DLH Then in that love the saints are to have part now, and I suppose where love is in exercise you find the spirit of Judas goes out.
PL Here you have His hands in activity. It is His administration, activity in an administrative way. Then in John 20 He shows them His hands; His hands are not active there. Is that rather in view of a scene of rest?
JT The hands and the side of Christ correspond with the stones taken out of Jordan and placed at Gilgal. You are in another position there, where defilement is not contemplated. It is a question of relationship with the Father, hence the Lord says,
“[p. 149] My Father, and your Father; my God, and your God”. The position is changed, it is different, we are there in heavenly circumstances, and, of course, that is our great privilege; but here the Lord is thinking of God and all that would be the result of His having come out from God and having gone to God; that there should be a people here according to Him. This service is introduced by Him, so that there should be the maintenance of it, for the service is to be carried on among themselves.
DLH Is your idea that Paul, in writing his rebuke to the Corinthians, in his lowly service that you have spoken of, and his ministering divine truth in regard to love, was really using the water and the towel?
JT I think 1 Corinthians may be regarded as the water, and the second letter as the towel. The first brings about cleansing, and the second brings in comfort and restfulness, for it brings in the ministries that set up the saints with God in perfect restfulness. Paul is able in that second epistle to say, “Confirm your love toward him”. (2 Corinthians 2:8)
Ques Does the apostle in 1 Corinthians lay aside his garments, or anything corresponding to it?
JT I think so. He might have gone to them with a rod and authority, but instead of doing that, he writes a letter and sends Timothy. He did not desire to go with a rod, so he sent a letter, and he sends it by Timothy. He calls attention to Timothy as his beloved child and faithful in the Lord, who would bring them into remembrance of his ways which be in Christ. He was like him, his own child, and they would discover in Timothy what Paul was like.
Rem The house of Chloe had been exercised about the condition of things at Corinth and had written to Paul.
JT Christianity as representative of God here [p. 150] is to be marked by outward littleness, by contentment in obscurity, and by a readiness to be or do anything that would tend to promote the interests of the Lord and His people. I think that our position here, as provisionally representing God in this world, should be marked by these features. I think it is a very significant fact that, when Barnabas went down and brought Saul to Antioch, and they continued there one year ministering among the saints, it is said that at that time that the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch, as if to imply that the presence of Paul and his service had yielded that. I do not say that it is formally stated, but that is the setting of it; the universal position of the saints as related to Christ is first mentioned at Antioch, they were no longer to be regarded as a sect of the Jews, but followers of Christ.
Rem It is at Antioch that Paul is first brought forward; Saul is afterwards called Paul.
JT As if to suggest what he was in manner and spirit, a man of no consequence in his own eyes, as he says, “less than the least of all saints”. (Ephesians 3:8)
DLH In 2 Corinthians 10 the apostle says, “I myself, Paul, entreat you by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ, who, as to appearance, when present am mean among you, but absent am bold towards you”. It suggests very much that kind of going down and ministering in meekness and lowliness.
JT That is a very good scripture as covering what we are saying, and there is no value in putting these things out unless one is exercised about them. Christianity is that publicly. It is a question of being anything and doing anything that will promote the Lord’s interests; no matter what others think, that is what we aim at.
Rem It should be a matter of serious concern with us that there is so little power for the recovery [p. 151] of those who have slipped off the line. Would not this help us?
JT I am sure it would. I think the apostle helps us in his letters to the Corinthians. They are recovering letters.
ER In Corinth there was a very serious evil.
JT Yes. I am not ignoring that, but I am only speaking in a general way.
ER In regard to the Corinthians it was a question of discipline, not mere defilement.
JT I am only treating of Paul’s manner and spirit, and the skill with which he dealt with the evil and the results accomplished. In regard to the Corinthians things were very serious, but towards them on this line he says, “though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so”. (2 Corinthians 12:15) That is the attitude he assumed.
Rem It is very encouraging to see what may be brought about.
JT The great object should be to recover all. It was said to Paul, “God hath given thee all them that sail with thee”, (Acts 27:24). Love in us would embrace all the saints.
Ques We get preservation here rather more than recovery, do we not?
JT This service preserves the company.
DLH I have often been struck with the fact that in John 13 the thought is not that the disciples had done anything particular one way or the other, but there was the defilement inevitable in passing through such a scene, and the ministry that the Lord Jesus undertook in such lowly grace was just the right kind of service to cleanse from the defilement in passing through such a scene; and, if that is so, it should reach over to what we were speaking of just now in regard to departure and recovery. The same kind of spirit should characterise all.
JT I am sure that is the way to look at it;
[p. 152] one would like to get the exact teaching there is in this chapter, and I think it is well to get the general bearing of the service of love, which was to continue in the company.
ER True happiness is to be found in this service, “happy are ye if ye do them”.
DLH Is it not the case that a ministry in divine love of this character has a wonderfully preserving effect upon saints, for it separates them. If Christ is ministered, the soul is morally separated at once from this scene. It produces that kind of moral effect, as the soul receives this gracious ministry. Then such an one would be a help to others on exactly the same lines.
Ques Do you suggest that the thought of the Lord here is not only to keep His own individually right in relation to Himself but that there should be a certain capacity in that circle in line with that service, that His own should be preserved and maintained?
JT That is it exactly. The service is to be continued by them. In 1 Timothy the widow, if she is to be put on the list, is to have this mark; “If she have washed the saints’ feet”. (1 Timothy 4:10)
Ques What do you link with our doing this service? The Lord coming from God and going to God? Is it that we are to be in keeping with that?
JT Yes; the service is that we should be kept in the light of these great facts, and be maintained in an out-of-the-world state of things. It is an immense triumph that people should be carried thus through in presence of the evil, and kept out of it, not taken out of the world, but kept from the evil in it.
DLH And anything that ministers and fosters divine affections will do that. Is not that the case?
JT Yes, indeed. “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil”. (John 17:15) That is the position in John.
Ques Will you give us a word or two now as to your thought in connection with John 20?
JT I think John in chapter 20 emphasises the spiritual side. He makes very little reference to any defectiveness or want of faith in the disciples. It is alluded to in Peter and John and in Thomas, but he makes little of it, and rather emphasises what was of God; he enlarges on Mary, and he mentions that John believed, though he went away again to his own home. In coming into their midst there is no reference to any defects, and in fact, according to this record, things are quite normal, and as the Lord would have wished it. He says, “Peace unto you”. They “were glad” when they saw Him, and then He said again, “Peace unto you”, as if He would confirm that state in them. As He comes through closed doors it is a spiritual thing that is before us, and I think it is all in view of the great position that they were about to come into by the message sent to them through Mary, because it says definitely, that she came and told the disciples the things which the Lord had spoken unto her.
Ques Does that prove that she was in the good of the revelation?
JT I should say so in measure, but the record does not make much of that beyond that she carried the message. She is merged in the company, and they seem to be in the good of it.
MWB In regard to chapters 13 to 20, in what position does chapter 14 come in, “I will come to you”, and the manifestations, and “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”?
JT I think it was all to confirm them on the positive side. Chapter 13 is more negative; chapter 14 is more positive, bringing in the Comforter, and [p. 154] the Lord Himself. In chapter 14 the Spirit is spoken of as the Comforter; another divine Person with them, an immense thing for us as in this world. When you come to chapter 20 and compare it with Ephesians 2, the divine thought is reached, “he has raised us up together” (mark together) “and made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”. We value that, if we love one another. It is God’s thought that we should be there together. But that is another thing altogether to what we get in chapter 13 and has to be understood spiritually; the latter is that we should be here together before the world as disciples of Christ.
Rem There is no mention of the Comforter or the Spirit in the first part of Ephesians 2.
JT No; it is what God has done Himself because of “his great love wherewith he loved us”, and what is peculiarly touching is that we are raised up together.
Ques Is that the difference between the ascension and the going back to the Father?
JT I think so.
PL The thought of His brethren is connected with the ascension.
JT Yes, and then it is a question of coming out in a heavenly spirit, “As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you”. There you come to a complete representation of Christ. It is not the Comforter here, but the Spirit of the heavenly Man breathed into them, and they sent out by Him as the Father had sent Him.
Ques Do you make room in chapters 13 to 17 for the thought of heaven, or is it entirely down here?
JT I think these chapters have the position of the saints on earth in view; what we are down here, so that after instructing them He prays for them, and He prays definitely not that they should [p. 155] be taken out of the world, but that they should be kept from the evil; but chapter 20 has in view our part in heavenly places. I do not know of any greater triumph than that people should be enabled to go through this world and yet not be of it; it is true sanctification. (John 17:17 - 19).
ER You are looked upon as in an out-of-the-world heavenly condition.
JT But in saying we are in an out-of-the-world state, I was not thinking of Canaan; that state strictly would be Canaan, but the Lord’s supper contemplates us though in the world, as out of it morally.
Ques Would you say a word as to the Lord when He had washed their feet? He took again His garments and sat down.
JT I think He returned to a position of dignity, setting Himself before their hearts, in the way He had acted, so that they might have Him before them as an example. He says, “Know ye what I have done to you? Ye call me Master and Lord”. He would impress them with His dignity.
Rem What He taught them could not be preserved among them in any other spirit than that which He had shown.
JT It could not be carried on in any other spirit.
DLH The greatest person in Christianity is the one who goes lowest down.